JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Hey Zombie,

How did you feel about peripheral motion blur on the DLP, is the 3D blur I'm seeing on
the JVC related to slight ghosting that is not visible in motion (or I'm not catching it) or is it just the way 3D is shot?

Thanks.

I didn't really notice this issue on the BenQ and HW30 since it could have been masked by the FI. I didn't get a chance to test them with the FI off. I already knew I liked the FI on the HW30 and was curious if the W7000 was similar, which it is. subtle and not over done.

do you have any specific scenes we can look at for reference?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Jason - any plans to add comments on black level comparisons? I recall seeing notes about the one needing an ND filter but nothing specific comparing the others unless I missed it?

sure, I'll have the 2D info up soon which has some thoughts on the black levels of all 3 projectors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Jason,

Mark mentioned that depth and contrast are related which I totally agree with. In your 3D summary, you didn't comment about which projector gave you the most sense of depth with the image.

jon, I think it depends on the content, so it's hard to say. On a movie like Sammy's Adventure, the W7000 looked great with the depth even though it's the trail runner behind the JVC and Sony in regard to contrast. I think it's the combination of no ghosting, the FI and lack of flicker in the glasses that made watching this a treat on the W7000.

When I see the 3D on the RS55, I'll let you know how it compares along with the other projectors. it might be different than the RS45 I just saw.
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post #92 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 12:44 PM
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+1 thanks to Zombie and Mark for these results.

I have a finished room that is 11'11" x 22'5" x 9' . Theater not built yet. Plan to have possibly 120 or 125" wide 2.37 AR acoustic transparent screen CIH set up (most likely Seymour AV) with LCR speakers behind screen. Intended use 90%+ movies, 10% TV. Plan to use ISCO 4XL A-lens as well. I even might do console gaming but it's really not high on my wants list at all. 3D is also not high on my list as well. Main priority is quality 2D.

Given the Seymour gain is nowhere near the HP (I think 1.0), what is the RS-45 and W7000 lumens output I could expect for a 125" wide 2.37 1.0 gain screen taking into account bulb aging after 100 to 200 hrs?

I checked Projector central pro calculator and the results for 125", 2.37, 1.0 gain at 16'11",

W7000: 16fL
RS-45: 9fL

but I think PJC results are not at D65 and new bulb?

I am coming from a Mits HC3000 720P DLP. Probably like most folks here, I would love to have deep blacks of LCOS & the sharpness of DLP but I also want a bright image (i think >12fL after initial bulb dimming). I probably put more priority on sharpness & brightness (i know I wont get the amazing star fields in star wars ) . So before this thread came about, i was pretty sure only DLP option such as BenQ would work best but zombie's lumens (new bulb) results and coderguy's comments on RS-45 sharpness have made me pause for a moment.
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post #93 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 12:51 PM
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More like 18fL on the JVC and Sony, and 20 fL on the Benq. Take 10% off for good measure after 100 hours.
That leaves at least 16 fL on the JVC and Sony, and 18 fL on the Benq.

Notice in my calculator how close my original numbers were to Zombie's results. Use the 2.35 results from my calculator shows you should be getting around 18 fL.

My calculator vs. Zombie's results
900 for the RS-45 at mid-zoom with a +7% modifier based on his position = 960 lumens on a new lamp vs. Zombie's measured 927 lumens on a 20 hour lamp
(< 3% variance, but adjusted for lamp life 0 vs 20 would mean = 0.9% estimated variance)

1000 lumens for the Benq with a +8% to +10% modifier = 1080 lumens on a new lamp vs. Zombie's measured 1062 lumens @ 15 hours on the lamp.
(< 2% variance but adjusted for tiny lumen loss @ 15 hours = wow now that's close)

My Sony hw30 numbers were about 10% from his, but as I have said before a 10% to 15% variance to be expected on occasion and my numbers are based off many measurements and not just one.

The only issue I see with my calc's number are the w7000's 3D mode, I find it odd that a projector that peaks at 2000 lumens does only 900 lumens in 3D mode, that is insanity. Sounds like a mistake Benq made in the firmware.


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post #94 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

It's already available now. Except it's marketed under the Sony brand name with a model number VW95. . Would have been great if a RS55 and VW95 were preset.

Jason - any plans to add comments on black level comparisons? I recall seeing notes about the one needing an ND filter but nothing specific comparing the others unless I missed it?

I agree. Unfortunately the 95 wont work in my setup and if I am going to spend that kind of $$$, I would probably go with a 45/7000 combo.

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post #95 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 01:31 PM
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So Im assuming you were forced to test lag on the RS45 without CMD/FI? Wow, the number is only going to get worse with CMD 'on'. I had igh hopes for this PJ for 2d and gaming, (dont care about 3D), but with 80ms lag that is a huge turn off.

I dont know where else to look for a projector with deep blacks and sub-50ms lag.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

for some reason, I can't engage the CMD with the desktop mode from the HTPC. I'll fiddle with it some more later when I get a chance.

I'm starting with the W7000 and running it through a basic calibration with the Chroma 5 Pro and Chromapure. I want all 3 to be as close as possible to D65 / Rec 709.


The Moderno Theatre! Slideshow (here, and here!)
Pixar screenplay slideshows here!
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post #96 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The only issue I see with my calc's number are the w7000's 3D mode, I find it odd that a projector that peaks at 2000 lumens does only 900 lumens in 3D mode, that is insanity. Sounds like a mistake Benq made in the firmware.

This was my question as well, how in the world can the BenQ not be bright in 3D with 2000 lumens to work with? Any owners contacting BenQ asking this question?
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post #97 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

So Im assuming you were forced to test lag on the RS45 without CMD/FI? Wow, the number is only going to get worse with CMD 'on'. I had igh hopes for this PJ for 2d and gaming, (dont care about 3D), but with 80ms lag that is a huge turn off.

I dont know where else to look for a projector with deep blacks and sub-50ms lag.

There's a number of variables that could have influenced this test, perhaps it could show higher or lower in a different setup. I am not a big console gamer, but the bit i've seen, the lag didn't bother me.

I know this is becoming an important topic for serious gamers. Hopefully the pro reviewers can agree on a standard test and include it in the reviews of the projector.
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post #98 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


ps. I made mark watch Shakira perform 'nothing else matters' live in Paris. I wasn't sure if he could take it.

http://www.amazon.com/Shakira-Vivo-D...4929921&sr=8-2

No matter if I liked her music or not, I think there is plenty to enjoy about that

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #99 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 02:19 PM
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zombie10k,
Great review. Looks like I chose wisely for what I wanted in a projector. For your FI test, I have a clip of a scene that drives my projector nuts. If is a slow pan and the picture gets incredibly jerky. Turning on the FI makes it watchable again. I see that you run with FI on which makes me think that is why you haven't seen it (or maybe my projector is doing something funny) I've been tempted to fire up my RS1 again to see if it has the same problem.
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post #100 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 02:21 PM
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Which projector did you choose?


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post #101 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 02:33 PM
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coderguy,
HW30. I got hooked on 3D with my Sony HX800. The problem was it was hard to get immersed into it when it was only 52" and you were 13' away from it. The HW30 with a 120" HP screen fixed that nicely. Ever sit in a room where it is snowing inside ? :-)
The strange part is it is not fast pans that bother it, just slow pans (go figure)
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post #102 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 02:36 PM
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I have sat in a room with it snowing but not while watching a projector, I've also ridden on a snow plow down a mountain after an accident. (and not by choice)

Where I live now it rarely snows, and usually it's 120 outside so my AC bill for a few months from the projector costs more than ALL my lamps combined that I have ever purchased in my life.


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post #103 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 02:57 PM
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Just bought an Epson 5010. Couldn't resist a nice boxing day deal, and said what the hell. I'll post some impressions later. Lets see if it can pass my 3D tests

I hope the 2D isn't too shabby either, and I don't like FI in 3D anyway. I didn't like it on my VW90 or Sony HX929.
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post #104 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 03:07 PM
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Epson 5010 should be good in 3D, maybe you can add your images to this thread and Zombie can move them to the first page post comparison???


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post #105 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Just bought an Epson 5010. Couldn't resist a nice boxing day deal, and said what the hell. I'll post some impressions later. Lets see if it can pass my 3D tests

I hope the 2D isn't too shabby either, and I don't like FI in 3D anyway. I didn't like it on my VW90 or Sony HX929.

sounds like fun, let's hear how it compares with the X70. what glasses are you using?
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post #106 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 03:14 PM
 
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Because I didn't have the correct glasses for the Epson, I was unable to watch it in 3D. The Xpand 103s worked a little bit on it but had so many problems it was unwatcheable before I had to deliver the projector to the person who purchased it calibrated from us. So I can't help there. 2D it was as good as the Sony being sharper but not handling motion perhaps as well. We are talking small differences.

I could handle that blond Spanish lady but she was wearing a skirt big enough for a guy to hide under.
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post #107 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 03:44 PM
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Congrats Conan! The 5010 is a very interesting projector. Supposed to have a fantastic DI and excellent blacks.

I hope you do a review of it for us. I'm interested in your impression of the screendoor effect on it, if its at all an issue, or maybe an overblown issue.

Mark, when you say the 5010 is just as good in 2d as the Sony, are you talking about the HW30? And you found the 5010 sharper? Did you use the DI on the Epson, and was it noticable at all?

Thanks.
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post #108 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 03:57 PM
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I have 2 sets of Xpand 103s. Hopefully I can get them to work.

I don't expect too much from the DI as the Epson 6500 and 8700 had noisy iris where I ended up just disabling it. However, the static contrast on the Epson is very good and even without the iris it looked nice.

I'm using this as a temp projector until I move but the Epson being so bright I might just keep it in a living room non dedicated HT and see how it works in the new house.

I'll report on screendoor, and other stuff :-)

I know the input lag on the Epson isn't the greatest but I've never had issues with near 100ms input lag. Your brain adjusts for input lag very quickly, but if you a competitive gamer that could be the difference between life and death. LOL.
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post #109 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 04:38 PM
 
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I haven't had a 95 ES in house to calibrate with Tom and to test. So my comparisons were between the HW30 and the Epson 5010 and the RS45. The 3010- I haven't played with and I won't. I am a stuck up snob, OK and the minimum Epson I want to spend time with was and is the 5010. I was very impressed with that machine. It held its own in 2D. I did play with the 103 Expands and got them to sinc sort of but I had to give the machine up before I could play with them more. I have ordered in a pair of the Epson glasses and will get another 5010 from someone who wants a free calibration and I will use that for some 3D testing. I just can't comment on the 3D performance of the Epson other than to say it was bright and I didn't like the super bright mode for 3D on it. I much prefered 3D cinema mode where its brightness was in the same league as the Sony and JVC. I am sorry to let you guys down here. I am on the phone with customers pretty much 12 to 14 hours a day and testing task so uch time to do it right and definatively. And like anybody, I would much rather take out a Ferrari than a Miata on the track. When I get the Sony 1000ES in, my customer phone time will be cut short for awhile. No tonight, instead of posting more, I am going to unpack the BenQ again and fire it up in 2D to watch Monday night football in low lanp, no BC, but with DB on and I will play with the ND2 a bit.Somebody call me and help me get into the service menu and teach me about the DB or DI settings. Thanks in advance.
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post #110 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 04:44 PM
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Hey Mark,

I guess this is what you already tried, but here it is...
This is what I found from the w6000 thread, but I have never done it myself (only seen a w6000 once in my life briefly).

Press menu and goto Last tab which is information page. Press up, down, up, down. You should enter the service menu. Goto db settings menu and please post db max, db min, db strength.

More info from w6000 thread:

Firmware 1.01
Date of firmware 2009/10/29
DLP Compos # 0.07
Sys Control MCU # A2-020

Aperture Position +51
Aperture Max +73
Aperture Min +15
strength +2

What are the factory numbers for ones with the original
firmware 1.0 ?
__________________
If I remember correctly, default for 1.0 firmware is: DB Max at +84 and DB Min at +12.

So that would explain the difference. You could verify by setting it to those values, and seeing if it reacts the same way you recall.


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post #111 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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EDIT: 2D impressions (color, contrast, motion, etc) and final thoughts posted in the first link.
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post #112 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 05:53 PM
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Nice additions to the review, I will say that my RS-45 also has the black uniformity corners issue, so do several other peoples in the forum.

It is noticeable on a few (but very few) dark scenes that are not completely black. One movie I could see it that had some smoke at night and the bottom right and left were too bright. I am not watching the RS-45 on my HP screen at the moment and I still see it. I am also no longer in a completely dark room while I re-decorate (curtains gone), so even without all black I can still tell.

It should not be a major issue to most people, but it could be a tad distracting at times depending on how severe it is from unit-to-unit. I will have to watch more content to know for sure how often it really shows up in darker movies that have really dark scenes but not pitch black nothingness.

I have 70 hours on my RS-45, and other than the bright corners, I see no other issues in the PQ really to speak of other than the bright corners.


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post #113 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 05:57 PM
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Looks good zombie, thanks for putting this together. Having owned all 3 (I will consider the RS45 similar to the RS40) I pretty much agree with you on everything. The only thing I find a little baffling is that the BenQ is so bright for you where as on my screen it is the dimmest of any of the units I've had this year from memory. It may be my DLP-Link glasses which may also explain why I was not impressed with the HD33 where as so many other people seemed thrilled with it.

Once Amazon gets the Acer 9500 price down a little I plan on ordering it and will make a decision on what combo to go with this year. Right now I am thinking Epson 5010 for 2D/3D and the Acer for gaming.
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post #114 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 05:59 PM
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You owned the Sony hw30, RS-40/45, and Benq w7000?

But now you are buying the Epson and Acer?


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post #115 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 06:02 PM
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Great report, Jason. This sure beats manufacturer hype. I wish I lived close enough to be there for one of these shootouts.

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post #116 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 06:11 PM
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My RS45 is a little bright in the corners, too, but the RS40 is slightly more noticeable. It's not a problem with either of them. For most fades to black, the contrast is so good that the whole screen looks utterly black for a few seconds, until my eyes adjust. They're both great with the "shadow puppet" test, where you put your hand up into the black area of the screen and see how gray the "black" of the projector looks. they pass that test with flying colors. My Sharp 20k wasn't very good with the test, and the Panny 4000 was quite bad.

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post #117 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Looks good zombie, thanks for putting this together. Having owned all 3 (I will consider the RS45 similar to the RS40) I pretty much agree with you on everything. The only thing I find a little baffling is that the BenQ is so bright for you where as on my screen it is the dimmest of any of the units I've had this year from memory. It may be my DLP-Link glasses which may also explain why I was not impressed with the HD33 where as so many other people seemed thrilled with it.

Once Amazon gets the Acer 9500 price down a little I plan on ordering it and will make a decision on what combo to go with this year. Right now I am thinking Epson 5010 for 2D/3D and the Acer for gaming.

no problem. I'd like to see the Acer 9500 as well even though I can't use it in the same position as the W7000. On the W7000, We did have a strange issue one time in 3D mode where the 3D dimmed something like 50% of the regular brightness. we rebooted and it didn't happen again.
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post #118 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

You owned the Sony hw30, RS-40/45, and Benq w7000?

But now you are buying the Epson and Acer?

Yup, and the JVC Hd250, Optoma HD33 and Epson 3010. I have not owned all these at the same time but back-to-back-to-back. I basically sell them after putting around 10-15 hours on them and move on to try something else. This years requirements were: Good input lag for gaming, good 3D (didn't have to be perfect) Good black levels, and sharp 2D. The Sony HW30 is the closest of all the projectors to meet these requirements for me but the image is a tad softer than I want for my 140" screen.

I have the RS45 in my theater room right now but was planning on calling AVS to get an RMA for it. I keep hearing from owners of the Epson and JVC that the Epson is just as sharp this year and the 3D actually works on it. The price I paid for the JVC is the only thing holding me back from really pulling the trigger and for some reason I really want to keep this thing. I guess after being burned on my Epson 6700UB I don't have a lot of faith in them any more.

The Epson could solve my 2D/3D requirements and the Acer will take care of the gaming without breaking the bank. For the cost of 2 higher-end units (like the BenQ and JVC) you are almost in the Sony VW95 territory.

The 3D glasses I am using with the BenQ is BG-ZD101
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post #119 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 06:42 PM
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I wish we would quit hijacking this shootout thread. The original poster's results stand great on their own. IMO
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post #120 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 07:05 PM
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I don't think that was our intent, but I did clean up things a bit on my end
We all know Zombie's 3D review was the one everyone was waiting for, and he did it perfectly.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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