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post #1171 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 06:56 AM
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First, I am not an expert calibrator (so let me qualify myself there), but what I did find personally is that it just depends. The below is not from any of the projectors discussed here, it is from a Sanyo z4000 (d7 panels), but it's just to highlight a point. It really wasn't so much about the DE as it was about calibrating in different methods and from different starting color tables and using different slightly non-flat gamma curves. The DE's were still all below 3.

Below is one example of one calibration graph that maximized contrast and brightness, it definitely wasn't a purist calibration, but it was purposefully done to maximize brightness and contrast without having the FULL negatives of a regular dynamic mode. Most people preferred it over the purist one, for me it just depended what I was watching, it definitely wasn't perfect by any means, but it had a heck of a lot more Native On/Off (about 6600:1 vs. 3000:1).

Even though this isn't exactly the same calibration, BELOW is about what the differences between the two looked like in REAL LIFE (coincidentally somewhat), but ignore the color variations and instead focus on how the second image looks more contrast...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post20483860


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post #1172 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 07:07 AM
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On LCD's, I always found it necessary to have 2-3 different calibrations, on LCOS and DLP I never really bothered with it or found it so necessary (maybe one brighter mode, but that's about it).

I didn't try it on the 8700ub so much so I don't know for sure on the Epson 5010, but I expect similar results as I have seen the same kind of things pop-up on most LCD's, some modes just have wildy lower On/Off. Also some modes they NERF the IRIS more than others, so LCD's (IMHO) are by far the hardest type of projectors to calibrate. Of course it varies depending on which model, and some LCD's have better calibration controls than others, but I just mean in general on how sensitive the calibration affects contrast.


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post #1173 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I gave up on ceiling mounts a while back because I change projectors so often and sometimes I move them between rooms (I usually only move the portable DLP ones though).

A good bookcase works if you can get one that is very open on all sides (no backing, no sides). A standard $65 pair of breadrack like metal shelves they sell at walmart works well, those can hold like 300 pounds, but they could probably ruin the carpet if you're not careful and pad the feet over the carpet. It is hard to find bookcases at the right dimensions online because most sites don't let you search by shelf height and dimensions.

I was trying to find me a shelf that was motorized that could move the projectors around, so I'd have lens shift without lens shift so to speak, but motorized shelves are really expensive.

This is probably to small for the JVC unless you left the shelf pulled out but you get the general idea. Wall mounted shelf.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1106795

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post #1174 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 07:41 AM
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Yah, for multiple projectors of varying sizes, you need a very DEEP bookcase or something with no sides and no backing. I have found some, but the JVC is just so deep you will still need a flat board to place on the shelf so the adjustment wheels don't hang over the edge.

Anyways, there are about a hundred different ways to skin the mounting cat.

I once posted my DEER mount picture, it was 6 JVC's hanging from the horns of a 10-point buck.
I guess people didn't think it was funny (yah yah it was a fake).


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post #1175 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Thanks. How about the native contrast numbers with the filter and no DI?

Its been ages since I've thought about adding a filter to help with CR. Can someone remind me how this works again? For instance, if I select a higher color temperature, I'll have a lot more brightness and first run out of red, then green, then run out of blue last.

So how does a filter help me? It cuts out the excess green and blue so I get the extra light output but without the much higher color temp? Where does one get such a filter? I am wondering if I could benefit from this approach with my VW95.

See post #357 in the link to the JVC ghosting thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...381199&page=12
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post #1176 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 08:11 AM
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I have a couple of questions about what I need and approximate cost:

1. What is the difference between the 5010 and the 6010, besides price?

2. In addition to the projector itself, what will I need for 3D for my family of four? Four pairs of Epson glasses and a single emitter? What is the approximate street cost for these?
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post #1177 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I have a couple of questions about what I need and approximate cost:

1. What is the difference between the 5010 and the 6010, besides price?

2. In addition to the projector itself, what will I need for 3D for my family of four? Four pairs of Epson glasses and a single emitter? What is the approximate street cost for these?

6010 comes with extra lamp, mount, 2 pairs of glasses, projector does anamorphic stretch (2 types I believe), is black and has an extra year of warranty. It is not sold over the internet. Some claim they have paid in the neighbourhood of $3,000 for it.

5010 -- sells for around $2,600 to $2,800. Has built in emitter that will work for most set ups, but you can buy an external one. You'll have to buy four pairs of glasses -- $85 to $100 each. Wireless will cost you an extra $200 to $400 if you want it (5010e).
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post #1178 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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@ Bob - I would recommend the Epson factory glasses at this time. My Monster Vision 3D glasses do sync, but still have trouble getting them to match the performance of the factory glasses.

of all the factory glasses i've tested, the Epson's are some of my favorites in regard to comfort, color tint, etc.
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post #1179 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Deja Vu, what filter are you using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I use two filters threaded together -- a Hoya 81B and a Hoya B+W. A friend has a colorimeter and we then calibrated each projector. I'm never going back, at least with the Epsons. You can buy the filters from on-line sellers or from a good camera store -- they're not very expensive. Basically you're buying a new, better projector for $100.00!

They come in different sizes so you will need to decide which size suites your needs.
You can find info on these filters here.
http://www.hoyafilter.com/pdf/HOYACatalog.pdf

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post #1180 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

They come in different sizes so you will need to decide which size suites your needs.
You can find info on these filters here.
http://www.hoyafilter.com/pdf/HOYACatalog.pdf

What are the benefits from using these filters, and in what mode do you use them? does it affect lumen output?

Do not steal, The powers that be do not like the competition.
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post #1181 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:


6010 comes with extra lamp, mount, 2 pairs of glasses, projector does anamorphic stretch (2 types I believe), is black and has an extra year of warranty. It is not sold over the internet. Some claim they have paid in the neighbourhood of $3,000 for it.

If the ~$3k price for the 6010 is accurate, then that seems like the better deal, don't you think? The lamp must be worth at least a couple of hundred dollars, the 2 pairs of glasses $150 to $200, the mount $0 (to me...I am shelf mounting), and the black case and anamorphic stretch...PRICELESS! (I really don't want a white projector and I really need anamorphic stretch)
Quote:


Wireless will cost you an extra $200 to $400 if you want it (5010e).

Wireless...for the glasses? Aren't all glasses wireless?
Quote:


@ Bob - I would recommend the Epson factory glasses at this time. My Monster Vision 3D glasses do sync, but still have trouble getting them to match the performance of the factory glasses.

of all the factory glasses i've tested, the Epson's are some of my favorites in regard to comfort, color tint, etc.

That's what I gathered from your previous posts, though you didn't mention it specifically. Thanks for confirming that info, Jason!
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post #1182 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 09:37 AM
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Approx $3K for 6010 is way low compared to multiple quotes I have received...
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post #1183 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Wireless...for the glasses? Aren't all glasses wireless?

Wireless HDMI so no cable needs to be ran to the projector.
The 5010e has a built in Wireless HDMI and you get one to plug in to your source device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post

Approx $3K for 6010 is way low compared to multiple quotes I have received...

Seems low but a few members here have got them for that low price.
I believe it may be those in Canada are getting the $3K price.

If you can get a 6010 for $3K, I would jump on it quick.

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post #1184 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

Wireless HDMI so no cable needs to be ran to the projector.
The 5010e has a built in Wireless HDMI and you get one to plug in to your source device.


Seems low but a few members here have got them for that low price.
I believe it may be those in Canada are getting the $3K price.

If you can get a 6010 for $3K, I would jump on it quick.

I hope you're right. I'm going to the GTA on Friday to see what I can find. I really like the idea of wireless.
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post #1185 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post

What are the benefits from using these filters, and in what mode do you use them? does it affect lumen output?

The filter allows you to run the projector in dynamic mode for full lumen output and with good colour (corrects for the over abundance of green). The Epson, I believe, puts out over 2,000 lumens in dynamic mode in normal (high) lamp mode. The filter does cut the output down to about 1600 lumens, but increases the contrast ratio significantly (at least with the DI engaged).
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post #1186 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 11:12 AM
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OT - Does Jason Turk still work for AVS? I haven't seen any posts from him in quite some time.
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post #1187 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 11:39 AM
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Jason left a few months ago. Quite a big loss for the community IMO.
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post #1188 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 11:43 AM
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I would never trust wireless streaming video for my projector's source. It could be ok to use it from one source, but I would want some stuff to be direct. Even if the implementation is absolutely perfect, how would you know, our sources themselves have so many imperfections that my OCD nature would be like "wow was that the wireless, or was that the source".

....Left-over food for thought...

Reminds me of this old skiing documentary in Canada where the guy never worked, instead he waited for the snow to melt and then picked up lost jewelry in the off-season from the melted snow to pay his skiing for the season. To save money, he would also walk into the food-area of the ski-resort, pretend to be a waiter and say "are you finished with that maa'm", then he would take the food outside and eat it.

Now that is a true dedicated hardcore ski bum.


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post #1189 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 11:48 AM
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I don't know if it's ok to post (if not I'll remove it) but www.biohemmet.se is a great site to get SBS material from!
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post #1190 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

The filter allows you to run the projector in dynamic mode for full lumen output and with good colour (corrects for the over abundance of green). The Epson, I believe, puts out over 2,000 lumens in dynamic mode in normal (high) lamp mode. The filter does cut the output down to about 1600 lumens, but increases the contrast ratio significantly (at least with the DI engaged).

The Epson 5010/6010 hits close to 2400 lumens in dynamic mode, brightest settings. It's because of the improvements they made to get bright 3D.

Joe Clark

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post #1191 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 12:15 PM
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Interesting thread. I'm (once again) considering replacing or buying a "place holder" 1080p projector for my C3X Lite, which is 3 chip DLP @720p and running through a VP50. I recently bought an Oppo Bd-93 and just feel like I could benefit from going full HD on my 127" X 54" Stewart scope screen. I have had many concerns with the JVC's (reading only, no experience) but, am a bit intrigued by the Epson 6010 for my cave-theater.

I wonder about the difference in image quality and style in the Epson LCD vs. the 3 chip DLP that I still love and is plenty bright - just not full HD. I'm not yet ready for another $15k purchase, so Sim2 is not being considered right now. It would appear the Epson 6010 is as good as the range (Sony 95ES, etc) above it where I originally looked and is brighter. I will continue to read and research and appreciate all the info here as usual.

Last - it's good to see 2 old friends I haven't talked to in a while: Bob and Bob (Sorel and Citation4444) - hi guys, great to see you again! Also sorry to see Jason has left.

Ray
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post #1192 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 12:17 PM
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Go demo an LCD somewhere before you decide.
LCD can look very close to near as FILM-LIKE in DARK scenes because the pixel fill or edginess isn't as visible in dark scenes.

In bright scenes, it looks a tad bit more on the TV'ish side, but some prefer it. Even though the pixel fill is not visible in 95% of viewable material from seating distance, it still adds an edge to the image, so you gotta make sure that edge is ok with you when coming from DLP.


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post #1193 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

OT - Does Jason Turk still work for AVS? I haven't seen any posts from him in quite some time.

I was wondering the same thing last night. He was my go to guy for projector choice advice in the past. CRAP

My equipment: JVC RS55 for 2D, BenQ W7000 for 3D, Carada 40x117 2.925:1 AR BW Criterion screen, Navatar .8 HD conversion lens, Darbee Darblet, region free Oppo BP93, Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD, JVC HD-DH5U D-Theater, Mitsubishi HS-HD 20000 DVHS, Pioneer CLD-97 LD player/AC-3 mod, B&K AC3 Demodulator
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post #1194 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 01:08 PM
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AVS still has people you can call to help you decide.

First eliminate the projectors by things you absolutely desire and need to have. Better 3d? Better blacks?, etc?

If you like darker blacks, then that can pretty much eliminate most DLP's right there unless you go with a Runco or an older Planar or something or one of those.

So then it becomes LCD vs. LCOS. Here it is a personal preference that is going to need some guidance, but you just have to decide what is more important between them for you.


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post #1195 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 02:04 PM
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Last - it's good to see 2 old friends I haven't talked to in a while: Bob and Bob (Sorel and Citation4444) - hi guys, great to see you again! Also sorry to see Jason has left.

Hi Ray! Great to see you again also...It's been awhile. I guess we are both looking for something to replace our "old reliable" projectors...
Quote:


I wonder about the difference in image quality and style in the Epson LCD vs. the 3 chip DLP that I still love and is plenty bright - just not full HD.

That's the million dollar question...

Most people here are enamored by the JVC picture, while I find it ok but nothing exciting. So that leaves me wondering how good or bad the PQ will be from an LCD unit. I have no frame of reference because I can't find anyone who has seen the Epsons who also sees the JVCs the same as I do, so getting a comparison from someone who "thinks like me" is next to impossible. The last time I even looked at LCD (about 5 years ago), the picture quality was pretty good on mid to bright scenes, but the dark scene detail was terrible (think early Sanyo and Panasonic units). My biggest complaint, however, was the degradation of the panels and subsequent shifts in color from one part of the screen to the next, not to mention the horrible DI implementations.

But these new LCDs from Epson have me interested enough to at least consider LCD once again, and since the price is relatively low, it won't be the end of the world if it doesn't pan out. Also, this will give me a low ticket price into the world of 3D.

My other thought is to dive in a little more solidly and just go for the Sony VW95 - but if its 2D performance is the same or similar to JVC's, then I really wouldn't be interested, and Ray, after owning a C3X, you might also be a bit disappointed - maybe not...better go see one first... . I want something that is more DLP like - popping (but accurate) colors, high ANSI, better depth, razor sharp (as opposed to "film like")...but with "good enough" black levels (15K:1 or better will suffice my needs). I like deep blacks as much as the next guy, but these other picture qualities are just as important to me, maybe more important. I want a lively picture that makes me go "wow" every time I see it, not just a projector that looks great on starfields. Will the latest breed of LCDs fulfill these desires?

Right now I am still tossing around the idea and don't know what I am going to get...if anything. Maybe I will just buy a new lamp for my RS-35 and hope that I get that "new car feeling" all over again...

Random thought - Is there anything from Optoma that should be considered these days?
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post #1196 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 02:27 PM
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I want something that is more DLP like - popping (but accurate) colors, high ANSI, better depth, razor sharp (as opposed to "film like")...but with "good enough" black levels (15K:1 or better will suffice my needs).

You want DLP, not LCD. I don't mean to sound like a smart aleck (really don't), but DLP is DLP like, LCD is LCD like, and LCOS is LCOS like.
Some projectors might sway real slightly to being more DLP-like than others in their tech, but overall it just isn't going to be that significantly close.

Your best bet is a Planar 8150 or Runco LS 3 or LS5 (whatever the models are), or something even more expensive.
Unfortunately there are no LCOS or LCD projectors that are completely DLP-like.

The JVC comes the closest IMO, but in intrascene contrast shots or shots with noise, the image appears more soft. That is probably what you are seeing. DLP handles noise differently inherent to the tech, it almost seems to purposefully be designed to still look good with a lot of noise even if the noise is still visible to the viewer, possibly because the original DLP designs actually had tons of noise in them so they had to work around the issue more than some other TECH designs.


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- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
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post #1197 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 02:29 PM
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The only local place I've found has a Sony 30ES and a couple of JVC's. I may go look at the Sony. As for local purchase - while AVS can not sell the Epson 6010 via internet, I am located reasonably close to Mark Haflich (thanks Inter County Connector), so I suppose I could buy one direct if AVS can do it that way. I bought my C3X (and Stewart Screen, Prismasonic lens etc.) from AVS when I first built my theater a few years back and see no reason to change now. ...just saw Bob's message... yes, I realize the tradeoff I'm considering, but also have difficulty in finding an LCD to see. I'm just not ready right now to sink another $15k into a projector and I think the next couple of years would be better served with a place holder (and experiment, as you suggest) before spending the bigger bucks. Sounds like we are in the same situation and considering the same options (Sony 95ES, etc).

Ray
"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place." -Jonathan Swift
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post #1198 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Hi Ray! Great to see you again also...It's been awhile. I guess we are both looking for something to replace our "old reliable" projectors...

That's the million dollar question...

Most people here are enamored by the JVC picture, while I find it ok but nothing exciting. So that leaves me wondering how good or bad the PQ will be from an LCD unit. I have no frame of reference because I can't find anyone who has seen the Epsons who also sees the JVCs the same as I do, so getting a comparison from someone who "thinks like me" is next to impossible. The last time I even looked at LCD (about 5 years ago), the picture quality was pretty good on mid to bright scenes, but the dark scene detail was terrible (think early Sanyo and Panasonic units). My biggest complaint, however, was the degradation of the panels and subsequent shifts in color from one part of the screen to the next, not to mention the horrible DI implementations.

But these new LCDs from Epson have me interested enough to at least consider LCD once again, and since the price is relatively low, it won't be the end of the world if it doesn't pan out. Also, this will give me a low ticket price into the world of 3D.

My other thought is to dive in a little more solidly and just go for the Sony VW95 - but if its 2D performance is the same or similar to JVC's, then I really wouldn't be interested, and Ray, after owning a C3X, you might also be a bit disappointed - maybe not...better go see one first... . I want something that is more DLP like - popping (but accurate) colors, high ANSI, better depth, razor sharp (as opposed to "film like")...but with "good enough" black levels (15K:1 or better will suffice my needs). I like deep blacks as much as the next guy, but these other picture qualities are just as important to me, maybe more important. I want a lively picture that makes me go "wow" every time I see it, not just a projector that looks great on starfields. Will the latest breed of LCDs fulfill these desires?

Right now I am still tossing around the idea and don't know what I am going to get...if anything. Maybe I will just buy a new lamp for my RS-35 and hope that I get that "new car feeling" all over again...

Random thought - Is there anything from Optoma that should be considered these days?

If you're tempted to try one of these projectors then order from a place that carries several makes and will exchange it for something else if you aren't happy. Nobody can tell you what or what you won't like -- that's entirely up to you. We all have biases etc. that are often unfounded because things change etc. 3D can be pretty amazing (especially the IMAX stuff) and life is short -- if you have an interest and can afford it then give it try.
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post #1199 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Hi Ray! Great to see you again also...It's been awhile. I guess we are both looking for something to replace our "old reliable" projectors...

That's the million dollar question...

Most people here are enamored by the JVC picture, while I find it ok but nothing exciting. So that leaves me wondering how good or bad the PQ will be from an LCD unit. I have no frame of reference because I can't find anyone who has seen the Epsons who also sees the JVCs the same as I do, so getting a comparison from someone who "thinks like me" is next to impossible. The last time I even looked at LCD (about 5 years ago), the picture quality was pretty good on mid to bright scenes, but the dark scene detail was terrible (think early Sanyo and Panasonic units). My biggest complaint, however, was the degradation of the panels and subsequent shifts in color from one part of the screen to the next, not to mention the horrible DI implementations.

But these new LCDs from Epson have me interested enough to at least consider LCD once again, and since the price is relatively low, it won't be the end of the world if it doesn't pan out. Also, this will give me a low ticket price into the world of 3D.

My other thought is to dive in a little more solidly and just go for the Sony VW95 - but if its 2D performance is the same or similar to JVC's, then I really wouldn't be interested, and Ray, after owning a C3X, you might also be a bit disappointed - maybe not...better go see one first... . I want something that is more DLP like - popping (but accurate) colors, high ANSI, better depth, razor sharp (as opposed to "film like")...but with "good enough" black levels (15K:1 or better will suffice my needs). I like deep blacks as much as the next guy, but these other picture qualities are just as important to me, maybe more important. I want a lively picture that makes me go "wow" every time I see it, not just a projector that looks great on starfields. Will the latest breed of LCDs fulfill these desires?

Right now I am still tossing around the idea and don't know what I am going to get...if anything. Maybe I will just buy a new lamp for my RS-35 and hope that I get that "new car feeling" all over again...

Random thought - Is there anything from Optoma that should be considered these days?

If you buy an Epson 5010/6010 it will be Russian Roulette what kind of convergence you get and hence sharpness based on Epson owner reports all over AvsForum, seems Epson's quality control re: convergence compared to other brands is lacking.
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post #1200 of 3270 Old 01-25-2012, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

You want DLP, not LCD. I don't mean to sound like a smart aleck (really don't), but DLP is DLP like, LCD is LCD like, and LCOS is LCOS like.
Some projectors might sway real slightly to being more DLP-like than others in their tech, but overall it just isn't going to be that significantly close.

Your best bet is a Planar 8150 or Runco LS 3 or LS5 (whatever the models are), or something even more expensive.
Unfortunately there are no LCOS or LCD projectors that are completely DLP-like.

The JVC comes the closest IMO, but in intrascene contrast shots or shots with noise, the image appears more soft. That is probably what you are seeing. DLP handles noise differently inherent to the tech, it almost seems to purposefully be designed to still look good with a lot of noise even if the noise is still visible to the viewer, possibly because the original DLP designs actually had tons of noise in them so they had to work around the issue more than some other TECH designs.

If he's not RBE sensitive, something like the W6000 might light up his eyes enough to not go back to 3 panel tech. He'll definitely need to use the iris to get decent contrast.
You can get them for $1500 now and some places online have a 30 return policy with no limit on lamp time.

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