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#1 ·
JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout


This is not a full review, just some general observations on A/B/C comparison in 2D, 3D, Game lag testing, etc.


The screen used is a 142" 16:9 Dalite 2.8 High Power Cinema Contour, projector distance is 18 feet for all 3 projector. Seating distance is 1.25 SW.


I'll start with game lag time. I used a CRT monitor for the test. All measurement results are an average over 10 samples.

Edit: Adding new lag time for Sony HW30 in 'Gaming' mode.


Ben Q W7000:
  • 50 MS w/ No FI or DI

  • 80 MS with DI on, but FI off.

  • 200 MS with DI on and FI on.

JVC RS 45:
  • 80 MS with no FI

Epson 5010:
  • 80 MS with no FI

Sony HW30:
  • 30 MS with 'Gaming Mode' preset

  • 65 MS with no FI

  • 70-80 MS with FI on low, medium or High


I was surprised to see the FI on the Sony didn't take much of a hit in lag time.








************************************************************ ******


edit: adding Lumens information. Normal = high lamp, Economy = low lamp. I know there are different references for the lamp modes.

Ben Q W7000: ~15 hours on the lamp


2D mode @ D65 = 1062 Lumens (Normal)

3D mode @ D65 = 894 Lumens (Normal)


** I did not get Economy readings in 2D on the W7000.

JVC RS45: ~ 20 hours on the lamp


2D mode @ D65 = 927 Lumens (Normal)

2D mode @ D65 = 614 Lumens (Economy)

3D mode @ 8500k = 771 Lumens (Normal)

Sony HW30: ~ 115 hours on the lamp


2D mode @ D65 = 894 Lumens (Normal)

2D mode @ D65 = 559 Lumens (Economy)

3D mode @ 8500k = 793 lumens (Normal)


All 3 projectors were comparatively bright when swapping from projector to projector.

Edit: Added Calibration information.


FYI- this is a 'hit and run' calibration. I would normally spend more time, but I still focused on getting a good gray scale, Gamma @ ~2.2 and REC 709color space as close as it gets with the built in CMS's on the Sony and BenQ.

JVC RS45 Gray Scale - This was fairly easy to get balanced @ 30 IRE and 80 IRE. The tracking was good. I could have tightened up 10-20% with the the individual gamma controls. Flesh tones on the JVC looked great after tuning it to D65.



JVC RS45 Chromacity errors - This is an easy fix with a CMS.



JVC RS45 Color space -



BenQ W7000 Gray Scale - This was also easy to quickly fix using 30 and 80 for cuts and gains. The tracking was nice from 20%->100%



BenQ W7000 Chromacity errors - Ignore the 'before' for green, cyan and magenta, I had the slide order wrong when I was doing the test. These 3 colors were similar in error to red, blue and yellow. This was simple to fix with the W7000's built in color controls.





BenQ W7000 Color space - ignore the stray green and magenta dots. The built in color controls assisted with getting it close to R709.



Sony HW30 Gray Scale - The built in gray scale adjustments are also easy to use with the Sony.



Sony HW30 Chromacity errors - relatively close out of the box. I know it's been said if the RCP is used, it can create artifacts. I only made minor changes to the lightness in a few colors and haven't seen anything yet, but will watch closely.



Sony HW30 Color Space - close to perfect out of the box. minor adjustments made to get it even closer.



Epson 5010 Gray Scale - The built in controls were easy to use and tracked well after setting the levels @ 30 and 80.



Epson 5010 Chromacity errors - close out of the box, just needed some help with Cyan



Epson 5010 Color Space - close to R709 out of the box, blue and cyan needed some adjustments to get it closer.



3D Ghosting Comparison


I picked 3 tough scenes from Despicable Me, Sammy's Adventures and Imax Grand Canyon.

Despicable Me - This scene has been used a few times, the awning of the house against the blue sky and the light pole in the background.

Original Image:



BenQ W7000 with DLP Link glasses



JVC RS45 with JVC glasses (both big and small look identical to me). I always thought these had a noticeable color tint compared to the MV3D's and Sony glasses.



JVC RS45 with Monster Vision 3D glasses. I could not tune out the ghosting with the MV3D's, but I do prefer the color tint of these glasses on the JVC.



JVC RS55 with Monster Vision 3D glasses. Nearly identical to the JVC-RS45



Sony HW30 with Sony glasses. The Sony performs well in this scene, the ghosting is almost imperceivable.



Sony HW30 with Monster Vision 3D glasses. Also a good performance with a slight preference towards the color tint of the MV3D's.



Epson 5010 with Epson Glasses The Epson handles this movie well overall.



Acer 5360 with Nvidia 3D vision Glasses Ghosting performance is excellent, but the projector falls shorts compared to the others in a number of different areas including contrast, color, etc. It does offer a great bang for the buck considering how cheap it is.



Sammy's Adventure - This movie has tons of high contrast scenes like this one. This particular scene has noticeable seperate around the mother's head and left shoulder.

Original:



BenQ W7000 with DLP Link glasses



JVC RS45 with JVC glasses



JVC RS45 with Monster Vision 3D glasses.



JVC RS55 with Monster Vision 3D glasses.



Sony HW30 with Sony glasses



Sony HW30 with Monster Vision 3D glasses



Epson 5010 with Epson glasses



Acer 5360 with Nvidia 3D vision glasses




Imax Grand Canyon - The tree in the foreground vs. the sky

Original:



BenQ W7000 with DLP Link glasses



JVC RS45 with JVC glasses



JVC RS45 with Monster Vision 3D glasses.



JVC RS55 with Monster Vision 3D glasses. - same as the RS45



Sony HW30 with Sony glasses



Sony HW30 with Monster Vision 3D glasses



Epson 5010 with Epson glasses - there are 3 glasses brightness settings, I tried low and high. it's hard to tell from the photo, but it's a bit less in high than in low. A very light silhouette at the top of the tree. Performance is similar to the HW30.



Acer 5360 with Nvidia 3D vision glasses




3D performance (glasses comfort, flicker, ghosting, FI in 3D, etc)


To date, I've seen 3D on the JVC RS40, JVC RS45, JVC RS50, Acer 5360 3D DLP, Sony HW30 and the BenQ W7000. I have a large library of 3D bluerays and also a fair amount of 3D SBS material, including console games.


it's a bit frustrating to read a pro review on a projector without screenshots of tough scenes, and the review says 'I didn't see any ghosting, great 3D, etc'. Certain movies like Avatar have little crosstalk based on how the separation was designed, color scheme of foreground and background, etc. Other movies like Despicable Me and Sammy's Adventure are tough on certain displays that are prone to showing the crosstalk. It appears high contrast scenes are the killer, especially orange/red/brown against a green/blue background.


Since there are no standards for reviewing 3D performance, these are just some general observations from a fellow enthusiast who loves 3D in the home theater. Some areas are discussion are the glasses themselves (weight, comfort, color tint, etc), flicker, FI in 3D, crosstalk, etc.


I have a small army of 3D glasses from Xpand, JVC, Sony, Monster Vision (Optoma, both the same), BenQ and Nvidia 3D vision.

Glasses:

JVC Glasses - I had a chance to use the JVC glasses from last year, and the new models as well. IMO, these are identicial in every way in regard to color tint, flicker, 3D ghosting,etc. The only difference is the size. The new glasses are much smaller and lighter as well. I like the physical On/Off switch. I found the new models a bit more comfortable around the nose piece and ear peices didn't pinch as much as the original JVC/Xpand 103's. The frames on the new models are quite small, but they still fit fine with my prescriptions glasses. I can see some of the frame with my peripheral vision, but my brain quickly blocked it out sitting only 1.25 SW from a 142" screen.

BenQ W7000 - The glasses are square and a bit heavy. The arms don't fold back as far as I can tell. There are 2 small coin batteries you have to install first. The lens are large enough where I couldn't see the frame once they were on.

Sony - I have the glasses that shipped with the HW30 and VW95, they are the TDG-PJ1. I like these glasses. Overall they are comfortable, lenses are a nice size and they are relatively light. These are rechargable and have an easy to access on/off button on the top. I also have the kids BR50 glasses. these are excellent for kids under 12 years old. I've had guests with kids use them from 4-12 with no problem. they are durable and also have an easy on/off button. These take a small button battery. Sony is the only company that took into consideration that many of these adult sized glasses just don't fit kids well. The BR50's are perfect for young visitors to the HT.

Nvidia 3D Vision - These are the original 3D glasses that got me hooked on 3D over a year ago with the Acer 5360 3D DLP. These are lightweight and comfortable and worked great with the Nvidia 3D vision PC setup. I used these to play the 3D game "Grid" on the PC (fantastic racing game) in 720P 3D and the 3D vision glasses handled it perfect.

Monster Vision 3D glasses (Optoma) - I save my personal favorite for last. I think I was one of the first to buy these in the beginning of last year in the attempt to find a pair of glasses that didn't have as strong a color shift as the Xpand 103's. The MV3D's are universal glasses that ships with a transmitter than can be 'tuned' to your particular 3D display. On the JVC, it plugs directly in the 3 Pin 3D VESA port. On the Sony, we are forced to use the IR sender/IR Receiver setup which works equally as well as the direct connection. These are very lightweight and comfortable. They feel like a pair of regular sunglasses, with oversized lenses for those who were prescription glasses. My critical comments on these is that the On/Off button is a bit of pain to engage (you have to use your fingernail to get it every time) and they are somewhat fragile compared to the sturdy Xpand 103's, etc. You have to treat them with a little respect.

Color Tint:


This is a highly subjective area, so please take my comments as a personal preference only.

JVC Glasses / Xpand 103's - These have the same color tint. It's the first thing I noticed last year when I got the RS40. It seems to put a greenish/yellow cast on white backgrounds. I know this has been discussed at length (color shift to compensate 8500k, etc).. I get it, but my brain doesn't block out this color shift. Nor does adjusting the color on the projector. I am always aware that I was watching a movie through some color filter.

BenQ W7000 DLP link glasses - These were possibly the most pleasing of all the glasses. The tint, imo, was very neutral and I was running 3D @ D65, not 8500k as is typical on some of the other projectors. It felt like watching 2D colors, but with full 3D effect.

Sony Glasses - I also find the color tint of the Sony glasses relatively neutral and pleasing as well in 3D.

Monster Vision 3D - glasses. My personal favorite. I like the tint on the MV3D's and thought these looked the most natural when used with the HW30.

Nvidia 3D vision - my biggest complaint with these glasses was the strong greenish shift when used with the Acer 3D DLP. I didn't realize how intense it was until I later saw the Xpand 103's, Sony glasses, MV3D's, etc.

Flicker:


Another subjective discussion. I am highly sensitive to refresh rates / flicker. I'd be the guy in your office 10 years ago telling you to change your CRT from 60hz to at least 85hz+ because the lower refresh would drive me to migraines. I can see fluorescent light flickering.. you get the idea.

JVC RS40/RS45/RS50 - the flicker on my first JVC last year in 3D was very noticeable to me, especially coming from the Acer 5360 which had a higher refresh rate in 3D. This seems to settle down as the projector warms up. It's not a dealbreaker, but always something I am aware of and it does cause eye strain for me as I head toward the 2nd 1/2 of a 2 hour movie.

BenQ W7000 - The refresh rate on the 3D DLP is so high, there is absolutely no apparent flicker to my sensitive eyes. It feels like I am watching a 2D movie and the glasses aren't even there.

Sony HW30 - There is a slight flicker on the Sony, but IMO, less so than the JVC. I realize FI in 3D has little to do with flicker, but when FI is engaged in 3D, I find the flicker is less apparent to my eyes.

Acer 5360 - This wasn't part of the comparison, but just for FYI, the inexpensive 720 3D DLP projector is rock solid in this area, same as the W7000.

FI in 3D:


I know some people hate FI. sometimes I do too, especially when it's too intense and creates the soap opera effect. If programmed correctly, it can remove some of the 24p judder in the 3D blurays and create a pleasing 3D viewing experience.

JVC RS40/RS50/RS45 - I was hoping JVC was going to put this in for the new models.

BenQ W7000 - The FI in 3D on the BenQ is subtle, yet effective. Combined with the neutral color tint of the glasses and the lack of flicker, the 3D was very pleasing, especially during fast paced action scenes.

Sony HW30 - Same comments as the W7000. The FI in 3D stays on all the time on my HW30. It's very subtle, but just enough to smooth out the film. I am glad Sony elected to put this feature in 3D for these models.

Ghosting: - Everyone check your weapons at the front door.



Ghosting/Crosstalk discussion has been discussed at length for some time now and is a highly controversial topic. Personally, ghosting stands out for me for several reasons. I am watching 3D on a 142" screen that is putting our nearly 3 times the light than the average HT screen. Ghosting can hide in the shadows, especially when the glasses are knocking down nearly 80% of the light. In addition, I've seen every single 3D movie released several times and know where it's at in each movie.


Obviously ghosting doesn't show up on every scene, and sometimes hard to detect in certain movies like Avatar. This brief comparison was to show how each projector handles the tough scenes.

JVC RS45 - The 3D on the JVC this year is no doubt brighter than the RS40 and RS50. Along with this, it appears the ghosting has intensified as well. I was not able to tune out the ghosting with the MV3D glasses, although I much prefer the color tint on the MV3D's vs the Original/New JVC's & Xpand 103's.

Ben Q W7000 - This is this projectors major strength. Good luck trying to find the ghosting, it's remarkable how well these DLP's handle 3D.

Sony HW30 - HW30 and VW95 owners have been thrilled with the 3D for a good reason. For an LCOS projector, it does exceptionally well at handling tough scenes in 3D. I am guessing this has to do with the faster 240hz panels, but for whatever the reason, there is a noticeable difference in ghosting on the Sony vs the JVC. I am NOT saying it's completely ghost free, but it's very subtle in comparison and find it quite pleasing through my entire 3D library.

Final thoughts on 3D:


these are just my opinons, if yours are different, it's all good.. that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.


JVC RS45 - With the mild flicker, ghosting in the tough scenes and lack of FI in 3D, I would like to see these addressed for next year if possible. I am not sure if I prefer the 3D from the last gen vs. the RS45. The ghosting on my RS40 and RS50 was more subtle, althought it wasn't as bright. This wasn't a problem on my HP screen, so the ghosting I see in the tough scenes on the RS45 are more apparent, likely due to my HP screen brightness.

BenQ W7000 - There was no flicker or ghosting to be seen with BenQ. Add in the FI in 3D, and the 3D on this projector is easy on the eyes. I know much has been brought up about the contrast on this projector, and this is it's weakness in 3D. It looks excellent in most scenes, but on darker scenes, the lack of on/off can be seen vs the JVC and Sony. The BenQ also takes the crown for SBS and 3D gaming over the LCOS, there is no competition there. If the contrast matched the Sony/JVC, it would be a perfect 3D display imo.

Sony HW30 - I like watching 3D Blurays on the Sony. For me, it has a good balance of the positive features of the W7000 and the RS45. The contrast (despite the arguing over #'s vs the JVC) on the Sony is very good. Adding in the features of the FI in 3D and very subtle ghosting (even in the toughest scenes) makes it a pleasing 3D experience for me with frame packed 3D blurays. The Sony has the same issues with SBS and 3D gaming as the JVC, but it's more subtle.


For all things 3D (frame packed, SBS and 3D gaming) the W7000 has a lot of strengths. The Acer 9500 and Mitsubishi 7800 are just getting out there, so i'm sure we'll be seeing the 1080P 3D DLP shootouts soon.

last part, 2D bluray impressions


These impressions are mainly focused on 2D bluray content, I didn't spend much time watching HDTV on the RS45 or W7000. I use the HW30 all the time for HDTV / Racing, etc.


I went through an odd assortment of favorite scenes in 2D. This includes some movies and concerts as well. I went for a mix of dark sci-fi (the Matrix, underworld evolution), CGI / Fast Action (transformers 3), dark stage concerts (shakira, live in Paris, Roy Orbison - Black and white night), a daytime concert (Eric Claptop Crossroads 2010) and a colorful stage concert (Chicago / Earth Wind & Fire, Live at the Greek Theater).


Color: - All 3 projectors looked great in regard to color once they were set as close to D65/Rec709/Gamma 2.2 as my meter permits. I highly recommend picking up an inexpensive meter and a calibration application of your choice. I used Chromapure and like the workflow. The payoff in time is that the projector is going to look as good as it gets. The lamps are constantly changing and the gray scale shifts as the lamp ages.

JVC - Once color calibrated, the JVC color looked excellent. I would like to have been able to fix some of the LSH errors, but it was close enough where it didn't show in any of the content I watched. Skin tones and popping colors in the EWF concert are popping off my HP screen.

BenQ W7000 - The red was hot @ 120% on the projector from 10-90% IRE. Once this was cut down, the color on the W7000 was equally pleasing. DLP colors have a certain glow to them and the W7000 looks good here.

Sony HW30 - The Sony was the closest out of the box, with the color space being almost dead on @ REC 709. It needed minor tweaks to the gray scale to get it to D65. No complaints with the Sony color, all 3 quite competitive in this category.


Focus / Sharpness: - I am sitting relatively close to a 142" screen (1.25 SW). I have projectors with soft lenses. None of these 3 projectors is 'soft' in any regard from this close seating distance. I am as critical with sharpness as I am with the other items that were observed. There were no issues found with these 3 projectors.

JVC - this particular copy of the RS45 I saw was exceptional with the sharpness. The lens in this model has nice even focus from edge to edge / top to bottom.

|BenQ W7000 - This was nice & sharp, especially when viewing the HTPC 1920x1080P desktop. The focus was even the majority of the screen and went out a bit at the edges.

Sony HW30 - I have masted manually focusing this projector, althought it would be nice if it has a motorized focus. Focus is similar to the BenQ W7000. Also appears similarly sharp compared to the other 2 projectors from seating distance.



Contrast / Black level uniformity:

JVC RS 45- The JVC is infamous for it's highly praised native contrast with no DI. Once the brightness / contrast were setup, the JVC looks fantastic with blacks, even on the HP screen. I had a few 'lights out scenes' and I was surprised to see the bright corners. They are going to be more noticeable on the HP screen. My RS50 was perfect in this regard, as was my RS40. I am guessing something was changed in the light path. You'll never see it in regular content thought, so it's not really an issue.

Ben Q W7000 - The BenQ has an DI, but it's not aggressively used. I don't know if the DLP has been identified, but my guess is that it's a DC2 since black level / contrast is similar to the W6000. The projector looks good with plenty of intrascene contrast but when you see the dark scenes like the Matrix, underworld, etc, it could benefit from the ND filter we tested, especially since it's so bright on my HP screen. The black field was relatively uniform.

Sony HW30 - Despite having a lower native contrast than the JVC, the Sony DI is impressive and the first i've seen that works this well. Going back and forth between the dark scenes in Underworld and the Matrix, I enjoyed these scenes on the HW30 as much as I did with the RS45. At the most critically dark scenes, I am seeing a click or 2 difference, not a day/night difference by any means. The Sony has great intra-scene contrast as well. Black level uniformity was the most solid of the 3 projectors.


Motion / FI: - I am using the Matrix and the TR3 clips as a reference. With FI turned off, I didn't see any issues with these 3 projectors with 24 frame BD content.

JVC RS45- motion appears similar to my RS40 and RS50, I never had an issue regarding motion with either projector. CMD3 looks similar this year as it did on last years models. I like FI sometimes, but I think it's a bit too strong on the JVC and would like to have seen it in 3D mode.

BenQ W7000 - the DLP refresh is fast, I didn't see anything objectionable in the fast paced action scenes on the W7000. The FI in 3D works well and is relatively subtle.

Sony HW30 - similar comments on the HW30, nothing outstanding to report. I like the motion low in 3D mode and sometimes in 2D mode (mainly concerts) where there is fast panning of the members on the stage.

Final thoughts -

JVCRS45 - The RS45 reminds of the RS40 and RS50 which is a good thing. 2D color and contrast are excellent and a dark sci-fi fanatic is going to instantly like the JVC. It's hard to believe that only 3 years ago, I paid the same price for a Mitsubishi HC5500 which was on another planet in comparison to the RS45. JVC found a way to bring their native contrast to the under 3k price point which opened the doors for many new folks to appreciate the color and contrast this projector can provide when properly calibrated.


Things I'd like to see changed:
  • black level uniformity. I don't know if this is sample variance, I believe several others have reported it. Neither my RS40 or RS50 had bright corners.
  • 3D ghosting - improvements here would be great.
  • CMS - the RS45 is at the same price point as others that offer full color controls.
  • FI in 3D - hopefully next year. When programmed correctly, I think it makes a valuable addition in most 3D movies.
BenQ W7000 - The BenQ has a sharp, vibrant image. it's main strength is 3D and an flexible lens shift for HP owners. There is also an 1500+ lumen torch mode that looked pretty good with ambient light on the HP. I would watch formula 1 racing with this mode. The contrast is typical of other DLP's in this price range, but not at the same level as the JVC / Sony.


Things I'd like to see changed:
  • better contrast, or at least control of the iris once I figure out how to get into the service menu.
  • Faster sync changes between 2D and 3D, they can take a good 45 seconds to switch sometimes.
  • 3 pin VESA port for 'bring your own' emitter and 3D glasses. I'd like to have seen an option for something other than DLP link glasses.
Sony HW30 - This is a nice all around projector that plays well with dark movies, mixed contrast scenes, fast paced action movies / sports and very good with 3D blurays as well. The color is great out of the box and even better with a minor calibration. I like the FI in 3D mode.


things I'd like to see changed:
  • Allow me to turn on the DI when in 3D mode. I have the HP and would give up some lumens for increase contrast in 3D mode.
  • Motorized lens functions
  • Stronger IR sensor


3/1/2012 Update - I have a replacement W7000 with the 1.0 firmware. Unfortunately the lens is damaged, but can be rigged enough for basic viewing. BenQ will send a replacement once they have the next firmware release in a few weeks.


In the meantime, here is some info for those looking at the various DLP Link glasses that I tested on the W7000.


The W7000 is definitely using the red flash for the DLP Link. The 5360 uses the white flash when it's in DLP Link mode. Here's what's interesting - the different glasses I tried tonight each filter the red flash in a different way. An easy test was Peter Gabriel's black jacket. You can see the red tint without the glasses, but it's completely gone with the ZD201's.

Quick rundown on the glasses:
  • Optoma ZD201 - The best of the 4 glasses. Each lens does an excellent job filtering the red tint.. it's very even and easy on the eyes since both lenses are balanced.

  • True Depth - These are great, comfortable glasses. They work perfect with the W7000 and get their sync the fastest of all the glasses, it's instant on. These are my 2nd pick, I can see a little bit of the red getting through on the right lens.. not bad.. just not as good as the ZD201's.

  • BenQ - The BenQ glasses allow a noticeable amount of the red through the right side lens. it's not obvious as first until you compare it to the ZD201's, then it's hard to ignore.

  • VIP - these are the poorest performing of the group, there is a large amount of red tint that is noticeable in the right eye and it's quite distracting. I wouldn't use these for long if I had the others available to use.


The 3D image is rock solid.. there is no flicker at all. Colors are very good in 3D mode, this is all of the box with FI and DI on in 3D mode. There is no ghosting to be seen.


It's hard to judge the black level at this time since I've mainly been watching 3D movies. My test was the Peter Gabriel concert which had some dark stage scenes, this looked better than I was expecting. It's not going to be mistaken for the RS55 anytime soon, but I would be happy with it for 3D movies since the other benefits of ghost free + great color are there to boost the overall IQ.


I'm looking forward to getting the replacement for this one with the bad lens and possible IQ issue in 2D. I know I am going to get lucky with # 3.




















 
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#978 ·
Regarding the Epson and the reports of bad convergence, is this likely to be noticeable for someone such as myself that does not have a discerning eye? I'm asking because I'm currently on the W7000 AVS list and have been eyeing this thread with respect to lumens and 3D performance since I have a great deal of ambient light most of the day and we like lights on for company. It is hard for a laymen like me to really gauge the better product for us.


Our setup is:

RS40 (ceiling mounted) (~14.5' away from screen)

Seymour Center Stage XD (100"W/115"D)

DC trigger

Light carpet, walls, everything... (it isn't changing)


We use the projector as a TV, though TV in this instance means, xbox 360, as 98% of our viewing occurs through Zune Video Marketplace, Netflix, HuluPlus, ESPN3 naturally gaming also occurs on the device. We watch a BD maybe once every other week or so and a 3D BD even less (mostly due to dearth of material and...the ghosting). At the end of the day I'm basically trying to do an even swap of the 40 for the next projector which given the prices I'm seeing on 40's is nigh impossible. The Sony looked great but is quite a bit more expensive than the epson and benq it seems and doesn't have a DC trigger. That's why I've narrowed this down to the Benq and Epson.


Having done the call JVC, e-mail JVC thing for a new lamp, I'm certainly paying attention to whose customer service is better in the varying threads and lamp cost is definitely on my mind given we are projector=tv. While I certainly like blacks to be black more than gray no one else in the household really cares all that much and since the new 360 dashboard kinda screwed up the levels anyway...well...I haven't complained too much so maybe it isn't the most important thing for me either. As on of those that has the projector directly overhead currently and by only a couple feet noise is certainly an issue for me though I was probably going to get a smaller extension.


My ambient light is such that in high lamp, 0, bright white, the 40 is mostly watchable for us when we come home for lunch the colors definitely get destroyed but the wife doesn't complain and the lamp fan noise doesn't bother me too much in high lamp.
 
#979 ·
Well, the Epson has the higher lag, you can always do the swap for the convergence issues until you get a good one, but you can't fix the lag. You still have a good chance of getting an Epson with good convergence even on the first try. They may release an update in firmware to address the lag, but I wouldn't bet my coin on it. Lag is for the most part a NON-issue to me because I do not play FPS games or competitive games, I play old-timer games like racing and very relaxed games.


DLP is a little bit better for gaming, not because of the lag, but because of the sharpness and higher pixel fill and motion pixel response and motion resolution, and the 50ms lag the Benq does is good enough IMO (Epson was 80ms and that is pushing it for some games), but I'm not a hardcore gamer. i think 50ms seems to be around where most people are no longer bothered, generally 40ms-60ms is the point. Some really intense gamers that are very competitive may need sub 30ms lag, but it's not common.
 
#980 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NavNucST3 /forum/post/21522552


Regarding the Epson and the reports of bad convergence, is this likely to be noticeable for someone such as myself that does not have a discerning eye? I'm asking because I'm currently on the W7000 AVS list and have been eyeing this thread with respect to lumens and 3D performance since I have a great deal of ambient light most of the day and we like lights on for company. It is hard for a laymen like me to really gauge the better product for us.

Any of the 3 panel projectors can have convergence issues. It depends on what color is off. If it's red, then it can be more obvious with white text on a dark background, etc. If blue is off, I wouldn't worry about it as much. Our eyes quickly lose the ability to see the blue offset from seating distance.


The 5010's living room (torch) mode puts out a good amount of light to help combat ambient light. You have to decide if a bit of gaming lag is worth the trade for something you'll actually be able to see in this room with the lights on. On my HP screen, we have over 5000 lumens in the torch mode and can easily watch it with an entire room full of lights.
 
#982 ·
Zombie. I love messing with you. The amount of lumens you have to play with is constant in a given mode for a given set up. It has nothing to do with screen gain or screen size. Projector modes and throws and other projector things can affect how many lumens one actually gets out of the projector. With a given lumens out, you can get more or less brightness of which there are different measures such as ft lamberts to your eyes by varying the screen size and gain as well as your setting position. I know you know this but your post is sloppy.



Now, please pass me the suntan lotion cause I don't won't to get burnt from the flames coming off that 2.8 HP. And please give me another Corona.
 
#983 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto /forum/post/21522758


Eagle has landed



First of many for 2012!

Attachment 234803

awesome.. ! are you RBE sensitive at all? just curious how the RBE is vs the W7000 and of course black level / contrast.


it would have been nice if the 9500 was compatible with the new Nvidia 3D vision glasses with the 'light boost' tech they are claiming. I think there are only 2 monitors from Asus and Acer that support the new glasses.


if you can also check the HDMI vs. VGA business we've read about in the 9500 thread. thanks!
 
#984 ·
Mark - I don't want to bore the guy to tears.. he has a low gain AT screen and states the RS40 is just about watchable with ambient light with the lamp on high, iris @ 0.


add in ~1800 of the 5010's torch mode (more than 2x the 40) and it should look pretty good.


now for busting my chops, I am sending this to you with no instructions to figure out.


 
#985 ·
That is a good point we forgot to mention, the w7000 has CONSIDERABLY less RBE than the Acer for people sensitive. The Acer has a 4x-6 seg color wheel (edited - saw someone say 5x, but not sure), the Benq allows 6x speeds. AFIK, the best projectors for RBE as DLP with 3D are the Optoma hd33/3300/8300 (6x), Benq w7000 (6x), etc. I guess the Runco or whatever as well, since someone might jump on me if I don't mention it.


I still think the Optoma hd8300 is being overlooked if someone wants a really well balanced DLP that can do high contrast, but it isn't the best for 3D brightness so you'd have to make some concessions here or get a different screen or something as compared to say an Epson 5010. The hd8300 is the one I'd probably pick, the Benq w7000 maybe too if someone can figure out how to get into the Service Menu to adjust the IRIS (assuming that is the reason for the high black level). The Benq is a little sharper but shouldn't be a huge difference hopefully.
 
#987 ·
You won't find a DLP that can compete against a Sony for contrast in this price range unfortunately. I agree the Sony has the lead, but I am speaking if someone wanted to go DLP.


I was going by Art's review which says the hd8300 had darker blacks than the Panny 7000, he side-by-sided them. People over-estimate the Panny's black levels in so many reviews, I saw a Panny 7000 and the black levels were not its strong point, they weren't terrible but also not great for this price range. My point really was just that the hd8300 can do better than the Benq w7000 in contrast. I am more of a 2D guy though, so 3D brightness to me is nothing more than just working around it (secondary screen or higher gain).


I like Art's reviews better than that site though, here is Art's: http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/hd8300/

I don't think he said it beat the Panny in this review, he said that somewhere else, in the shootout or Panny 7000 review.
 
#989 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k /forum/post/21522794


it would have been nice if the 9500 was compatible with the new Nvidia 3D vision glasses with the 'light boost' tech they are claiming. I think there are only 2 monitors from Asus and Acer that support the new glasses.

Lightboost tech is not in the glasses, it's in the monitors.
 
#990 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen /forum/post/21522997


Lightboost tech is not in the glasses, it's in the monitors.

I thought since Acer had the tech in one of their new monitors that maybe it would show up in the 9500. I don't know much about it besides their marketing claims.
 
#991 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k /forum/post/21523073


I thought since Acer had the tech in one of their new monitors that maybe it would show up in the 9500. I don't know much about it besides their marketing claims.

I'm fairly certain Lightboost relies on LED backlighting being pulsed in sync with open shutters so it's unlikely to be found in Acer's projector.
 
#992 ·
Here is what Art said about the blacks of the JVC HD250 vs. the Optoma hd8300:

In terms of blacks, on really dark scenes, the two seem about comparable. On mixed brightness scenes, the JVC (as expected) which doesn't use a dynamic iris, will show blacker blacks. Of course you appreciate great blacks most on those overall very dark scenes without any bright areas. (That folks is why we use this night train scene, as one of our most critical test images.)


Later on he side-by-sided the hd8300 and said he was surprised to see that it beat the blacks of the Panny 7000. You have to remember people are reviewing black levels in relation to price, for this price the hd8300 isn't great at blacks compared to some projectors, and note that the few DLP's that were good at this are no longer in the running as none of them had 3D. The Optoma hd8300 puts out respectable brightness, I don't see why it wouldn't be as bright in 3D as the Sony?


Also, Art had a pre-production hd8300 I believe and the other reviewer may have as well, other reviewer numbers I saw were even brighter than Art's, and the best modes are a little brighter than the Sony hw30 from the numbers I have so far, although somewhat incomplete on this PJ.

From ProjectorCentral.com brightness measurements
http://www.projectorcentral.com/opto...ge=Performance

Its Cinema mode (Optoma hd8300), which has the best color and contrast performance of all of the projector's preset modes, measures 832 lumens in standard (low) lamp mode with the lens at its widest angle setting. Bright lamp mode increases lumen output by about 20%, bringing Cinema to 996 lumens. Brightest mode was 1200 lumens.


Now how the IRIS works is another story, never seen it, it could be too intrusive.


I don't trust on/off readings at all anymore unless they come from specific places, too many people still don't take them right, even respected reviewers. Some people measured an RS-45 at 70,000:1, others measured it at 25,000:1. It's the technique some are using is invalid because their meters aren't accurate enough to get the floor, and they aren't compensating correctly or estimating. It's easier to trust lower Native readings than higher, but I still don't trust them. Really the RS-45 is 50,000:1 just like JVC says, I measured it at 48,000:1, Tom Huffman measured it at 52,000:1.
 
#994 ·
It can do 1200 lumens in 3D mode on a PRE-Production model, that is not too dim in many setups, that is brighter than the Sony's, and as bright or slightly brighter than the JVC. I am waiting for post-production numbers, but I expect it to hit 1350 lumens in brightest mode. It is rated at 1500 lumens, they are complaining about it not doing the stated amount, but Optoma's typically are a lot lower lumens in pre-production models, so are Epsons. Even at 1.5 gain, it should be fine for many unless the glasses really are taking the brightness down that much, now that I do not know. The Benq w7000 only did 900 lumens in 3d mode...


More importantly, the LOW lamp calibrated mode is brighter than almost all the other projectors as it only lost 15% to 20%. Low Lamp on this PJ is as bright as the Epson's high lamp calibrated. In Low Lamp calibrated mode, it is brighter than the JVC, Sony, and Epson by a significant amount.


Sorry to go on and on, but just to clarify, I just re-read that Sound and Vision article of the Optoma hd8300 review, he obviously had either a defective lamp or his brightness measurements are a misprint.


Look at this statement:

"The brightest image was achieved in the projector’s Image AI lamp mode, which produced 13.08 ftL on a 1.0-gain, 102-inch 16:9 screen"

13 fL on a 1.0 gain 102 inch screen for the BRIGHTEST IMAGE?

That would mean the projector rated at 1500 lumens is doing 405 lumens, I don't think so. That is 1/3rd the brightness of PJC's review.

Also the guy states 1400:1 Native On/Off in one mode and one place, then later 1900:1 Native on/off and entire time doesn't even tell us his Zoom positions on the lens or what method he took the measurements. If he was only getting 405 lumens, he had a bad lamp which likely meant he had to use a screwy calibration to get the numbers accurate and it very likely also affected his Native on/off measurements, which were still higher than I expect the Benq w7000 to come out as. This projector also has Dark Chip 3, rather than DC 2.
 
#995 ·
It's hard to trust what some reviewers state about black levels. Projector Central says the Panasonic's black levels are better than the Sony and as good as the Epson yet Projector Reviews says the Sony does black levels better than the Panasonic. I'm more inclined to trust Projector Reviews because they seem to be more concerned with black levels more than Projector Central.


Projector Central also stated that they couldn't tell the RS45 was turned on until the white logo appeared on screen and those black levels are not that good even though I really wish they were.
 
#996 ·
I agree, that's why someone needs to test it from here. I am so busy at work and doing the projector calculator I just haven't had time to do any real reviews yet. I also agree about projectorreviews.com's black level tests, they are generally good. I'm sure Evan is a nice guy, but man he has let his Panny BIAS go on. Maybe Zombie or Mark H. can get an Optoma hd8300 for testing...


From what I know, Art thinks the blacks are typical for a DLP in this price range, but we also know that Art said the w7000's blacks are basically bugged in an even lower price range, so that tells us something right there.
 
#997 ·
The only issue that I have about Art's reviews is that I believe he's going off of memory when doing comparisons in many cases. Is that correct?


I really wish there was a way to measure the lowest light output on a very dark scene (and by that I don't mean the darkest black a projector can get by closing the iris (or should I say irish
) down momentarily. In my mind when I think of black levels I think of the darkest black levels a projector can get when very little content is on screen.
 
#998 ·
He side-by-sided A/B the Optoma hd8300 and Panny 7000 and said he was surprised the Optoma has darker blacks as he was expecting the Panny to win. I can find where Art said that and will post back, it was in one of his comparison reports.


Actually though, even that Sound and Vision review (with the bugged Lumens numbers) showed 10,800:1 Dynamic On/Off, which is higher than the Panny's Rec709 On/Off at 7,800:1, so even that review also supports the conclusion for calibrated black levels.
 
#999 ·
Yeah, I think the price is what really hurt the HD8300. With the JVC RS45's thousand dollar price cut (or there abouts), and competition from Sony and Epson, I think they missed their opportunity a bit. I would like the see the price come down a bit.


Coder, I checked out the PJ Calculator last night, great work! I will definately be using it when/if I upgrade my PJ.


Lets talk 3D, DLP vs LCD tech. What does everyone feel about 48hz per eye (LCD) vs 60hz per eye(DLP). Does flicker, or a refresh rate that is under the threshold of the eye perception become a factor?


I've viewed the 96hz in 3D mode on the Panasonic VT plasma, and the Sony NX929, and it was slightly noticable and bothersome to me, but I'm quite sensative to it. The 120hz refresh rate of DLP creates a rock solid, stable and flicker free image, and I think that is an advantage.


Just food for thought, and I know LCD can do 120hz as well, but the ghosting starts to become much more noticable, so I'm talking about the best modes for each tech.
 
#1,000 ·
I would be willing to pay more for the hd8300 over the w7000 if it came down to a huge difference in contrast.

The Acer 9500bd might be good, but it's got a few bugs, that Acer over HDMI sharpness bug sounds bad as well as tearing, but who knows.
 
#1,001 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy /forum/post/21524677


I would be willing to pay more for the hd8300 over the w7000 if it came down to a huge difference in contrast.

The Acer 9500bd might be good, but it's got a few bugs, that Acer over HDMI sharpness bug sounds bad as well as tearing, but who knows.

Art at Projector Reviews says that sharpness isn't a factor. In fact in his review he says the Acer 9500 is really sharp. I would assume he was using HDMI, so what gives? He also has some shots that compare the 9500's sharpness to other projectors.


The next two projectors that Projector Central will be reviewing will be the Acer 9500 and the Benq W7000. This will be interesting.
 
#1,002 ·
Never seen the Acer so cannot comment on its sharpness for that specific model, but I am going by the posts from the Acer 9500bd thread experienced with the HDMI bug which exhibited clear pixel smearing with text in HTPC over HDMI, they had to use the VGA port.


I don't know if it was fixed or ended up being something else or what, I lost track of the thread somewhat and just started reading it again.
 
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