JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 01:39 PM
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UPS just delivered an Epson 6010 for me to try out. It should be a fun night.

Hey, Joe, where are you? Was it a good night or a bad night?

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post #1262 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 02:37 PM
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I managed to see the Sony in action and while I liked the image quality, I don't think it will be bright enough on my large screen, especially in 3D (though I'm not a particular 3D fan). My room is light controlled but large and large 2.35 screen. I think I may just go blind for the Epson 6010 since it's so reasonably priced and getting such good reviews in general (Tom Huffman really liked it and that says a lot). I'll probably call Mark H. this weekend to work it all out and ask my questions. For the money it's not a big risk and I can either keep my C3X for (720p) backup or sell it after a while if I really like the Epson. I bet resale on a $15k 3 chip Sim2 DLP will make my jaw drop!

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post #1263 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I'm going to Toronto to demo one. I was hoping to go on Saturday, but the new showroom isn't finished yet so I'll have to wait another week. I was told that if I decide to buy that the projector would be taken out of the box and hooked up so that the convergence etc. could be checked. I'm waiting for Joseph's comments re: Epson 6010 before I make the five hour round trip. The amazing brightness and next to zero ghosting (3D BD) of the 5010 has me intrigued.

This quote from Funhouse Austin is interesting and is found in the Mits 7800 thread.

"I have sold Mitsubishi projectors for about 6 years and I sold the crap out of the HC6800 - it was awesome. For me, the 7800 was a BIG disappointment as they removed some good qualities of the 6800 to cram in the 3-D. Ex. It lost its motorized lens shift which was a great feature at the price point. The case feels of lower quality and they raised the price significantly. I have since switched to the Epson 6010 which with everything they include and the 3-D brightness is a no-brainer."

Thats a good idea DV, especially when laying down 3K. As you said, the prices are very competetive here in Canada, especially online. Looks like we are getting a better price than our southern friends, for once!

To answer my own question about Epson warranty in Canada, the answer appears YES! Epson.ca lists the warranty as a 2 day replacement:
http://www.epson.ca/cgi-bin/ceStore/...seBVCookie=yes

Are Epson 5010/6010 owners keeping the Dynamic Iris enabled (2D) or is it a bit slow and you can see/hear it working?
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post #1264 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 03:37 PM
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Some people complain about Epson's iris -- mostly about the noise it makes, but hardly ever about pumping. I run mine in the faster mode or high and never see any pumping during a movie, although I do hear it working in quite scenes occasionally (not a big deal) when I'm sitting right under it (about a foot from my head). I imagine the 5010 will be similar.

Is it my imagination or has this thread suddenly gone very quite? Maybe Joe's talking to his lawyer about the guy he got the 6010 from.
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post #1265 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Some people complain about Epson's iris -- mostly about the noise it makes, but hardly ever about pumping. I run mine in the faster mode or high and never see any pumping during a movie, although I do hear it working in quite scenes occasionally (not a big deal) when I'm sitting right under it (about a foot from my head). I imagine the 5010 will be similar.

Is it my imagination or has this thread suddenly gone very quite? Maybe Joe's talking to his lawyer about the guy he got the 6010 from.

Not a chance! Everything I know about people says he's a great guy. I've had a very busy day and didn't accomplish half of what I wanted to. Let me collect my thoughts and I'll post my impressions later this evening.

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post #1266 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I am waiting to see JMalto's new toy. every week is like christmas.


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post #1267 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Not a chance! Everything I know about people says he's a great guy. I've had a very busy day and didn't accomplish half of what I wanted to. Let me collect my thoughts and I'll post my impressions later this evening.

Please include your thoughts about 2D when comparing it to the JVC and most specifically about black levels in dark scenes from a black level fanatic's perspective. I'm sure most of us know that you'll probably like 3D better on the Epson just like every one else has mentioned.
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post #1268 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 04:25 PM
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No point buying a new projector this year. It is more entertaining to stick around this thread and read about the latest "new" projector -- seems someone has switched to another projector every couple of weeks or so. I'm living vicariously -- it is cheaper.
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post #1269 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

No point buying a new projector this year. It is more entertaining to stick around this thread and read about the latest "new" projector -- seems someone has switched to another projector every couple of weeks or so. I'm living vicariously -- it is cheaper.

Entertaining and neurotic, a nice combo! People keep switching projectors because they trash all of them due to their neurosis. It does get frustrating reading because you can read people on this forum trashing every projector that exists on the market as if they really are junk when in reality they're not perfect but certainly aren't junk. I think part of the reason me and many others do all of this analysis and reading is due to lack of being able to see most of these projectors in a showroom and often having to choose based on all of the comments on the forums and reviews...
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post #1270 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 05:03 PM
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Damn this evil thread!! I just got word that my X30/RS45 arrived and I could pick it up tonight... however with all this gushing over the 5010's 3D I had no choice but to ask whether he had one in demo... Turns out he has but I won't be able to see it until next week (shop will be closed for a week).
Since I'm not allowed to put hours on my lamp and return it for an Epson, I'll have to choose for either instant gratification right now without knowing if I'm truly missing out on something with the Epson, or hold out a week longer in agony just to make sure if I made the right choice with the JVC.

I hate to think that I will like the Epson better since then I'll have to wait yet again for that new order to arrive
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post #1271 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 05:46 PM
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So I just got my 5010. Upgrading from my Panasonic AE2000 2D + Acer 5360 for 3D.
The bad:
1) I can see the pixel structure at 7' from my 120" high gain screen, but barely and I think I can learn to ignore it. With the Panny's smoothscreen I had to stick my nose on the screen to see the structure.
2) It is brigher than I would like for 2D on my high gain Vutec Silverstar. Low lamp in either cinema or natural mode it is quite bright. I think I natural for pc use (I am typing on it now) In the brighter modes it is quite blinding.
3) No power zoom/focus. Kind of a pain to get setup. The lens shift horizontal/vertical affecting each other sucks maybe worse. I learned to set the vertical high, then wiggle the horizontal to bring it down. Not a big thing of course.
4) Convergence - wow red was like 3 pixels off. The panny was perfect. I have read about people returning them for this.

The good:
1) powered convergence adjustment. Holy crap, why return this thing when it has this? That is like returning it because the focus is off. It took me 2 minutes to fix convergence (once I figured out I was adjusting the corner with the square and not the menu ), far less time than adjusting the lens shift.
2) sharpness: wow amazing. I really like this.
3) Image quality. Seems much better out of the box.
4) Blacks. Very nice blacks. I turned DI on. It was off by default.

Input Lag was is not a problem for me. Just played a round of Battlefield 3 and didn't have any problems at all. Got my butt kicked a lot, but that is usual.

So far I am VERY happy. Will try 3D out tonight.
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post #1272 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

So I just got my 5010. Upgrading from my Panasonic AE2000 2D + Acer 5360 for 3D.
The bad:
1) I can see the pixel structure at 7' from my 120" high gain screen, but barely and I think I can learn to ignore it. With the Panny's smoothscreen I had to stick my nose on the screen to see the structure.
2) It is brigher than I would like for 2D on my high gain Vutec Silverstar. Low lamp in either cinema or natural mode it is quite bright. I think I natural for pc use (I am typing on it now) In the brighter modes it is quite blinding.
3) No power zoom/focus. Kind of a pain to get setup. The lens shift horizontal/vertical affecting each other sucks maybe worse. I learned to set the vertical high, then wiggle the horizontal to bring it down. Not a big thing of course.
4) Convergence - wow red was like 3 pixels off. The panny was perfect. I have read about people returning them for this.

The good:
1) powered convergence adjustment. Holy crap, why return this thing when it has this? That is like returning it because the focus is off. It took me 2 minutes to fix convergence (once I figured out I was adjusting the corner with the square and not the menu ), far less time than adjusting the lens shift.
2) sharpness: wow amazing. I really like this.
3) Image quality. Seems much better out of the box.
4) Blacks. Very nice blacks. I turned DI on. It was off by default.

Input Lag was is not a problem for me. Just played a round of Battlefield 3 and didn't have any problems at all. Got my butt kicked a lot, but that is usual.

So far I am VERY happy. Will try 3D out tonight.

The problem with some of these is that even when you dial in the color alignments, the grid lines can still be "splayed" and badly unfocused. If your color alignment is all you needed then you got a good unit.

The 3D should blow you away.

Also, funny to hear someone complaining about the brightness. Your eyes should adjust, if not, wear the 3D glasses all the time. (the pj has a good 2D-3D conversion). lol.


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. Early project info. Needs update with final results.
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post #1273 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 06:48 PM
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There were only 13 hours on the Epson 6010 when I got it. I'm not sure how much more "breaking in" it might go through. Overall, though, I've probably gotten a pretty good feel for it. IMO, Epson has done a really good job with 3D on this projector. If ghosting is at or near the top of your list of qualities that make a good 3D display, you're really going to like it. I think I must be extremely sensitive to ghosting compared to most other people, because I usually see it where other people say they don't. I can see ghosting on the Epson, but it's very, very minor. It doesn't match the two DLP displays I've seen (Mits DLP rear projector and Acer 5360 projector), but I'd rate it above all the rest (JVCs, Panasonic and Samsung plasmas, various 3D LCDs from all the major manufacturers). It may not best a couple of LG passive LCD displays that I've seen, but generally speaking I don't care for 3D on those sets for a variety of other reasons, and if you get too far off axis they can ghost like crazy. The Epson does very well in both "white ghosting" (light objects overlapping dark backgrounds) and "black ghosting" (black objects against very light backgrounds). On most displays, it's one or the other, but Epson seems to have found a way to do justice to both. Franky, I found that surprising. I expected the light on dark ghosting problems I've seen on just about every other LCD display I've watched.

Ironically, I saw telltale ghosting in gray on gray overlapping areas (Monsters vs Aliens, the large chamber where Susan meets her fellow monsters for the first time - in the walls). Again, it was minimal, and most people probably wouldn't notice, but I thought it strange that this scene would ghost a tiny bit on the Epson, while I can't recall seeing it ghost in the least on other displays.

I agree with Jason about the Epson glasses. They're very comfortable and light, they sync up easily, and they seem color neutral and bright. I also had a chance to do a direct A/B comparison with a pair of the new Sony PlayStation 3 universal glasses. I didn't spend much time doing it, but to me that appeared the same. The Sony glasses are only $50, so about half of what the Epson glasses cost. The Sony glasses also synced with my Samsung LCD display, and just as effortlessly. I couldn't get the Epson glasses to sync with my Samsung, so I'd be much more inclined to buy Sony glasses as extras.

I watched equal amounts of 3D in 3D Cinema mode and 3D THX mode (the 6010 has this, while the 5010 does not). 3D Dynamic mode's colors were far too off for my taste. I'm sure Jason has tweaked those odd colors to get something much more accurate. I couldn't. But I didn't need the extra light of dynamic mode anyway.

As a matter of fact, I was getting plenty of light in THX mode on my 110" HP 2.8 gain screen. Much more and the black levels would have been too high for my taste. I had 3D brightness set to medium, although low also worked on my screen at this point in the lamp's life (i.e. brand new). I tried high, medium and low, and medium had really good brightness without any serious ghosting. The iris is not active in 3D mode, of course, but I really didn't feel a need for it.

It's always buyer beware when relying on other peoples' opinions, but...

I believe that people who are happy with LCD projector technology are going to pleased as punch with the Epson. It's 3D is really, really good. IMO, ghosting is not an issue on this projector - plain and simple. You can find it, but unless you go looking, it never blatantly calls attention to itself like the JVC RS45 does, or like both my Samsung displays do. Color is very good out of the box, as is shadow detail (especially in THX mode). Sharpness is not quite the equal of my RS45. (It's a tiny bit soft on the right side, though convergence is generally very good.). It has manual controls for zoom and focus, but that wasn't a problem, since I don't have a CIH screen. It just took a couple of minutes to set it up.

The Epson's weak area, IMO, is LCD's weak area in general when you compare it to the JVC - contrast. I'm absolutely spoiled by the deep, rich contrast of the JVC, for 2D and 3D. It's not just black level that sets the JVC apart. When in 2D mode, the Epson's iris closes altogether, so the screen is as black as it can possibly get, but IMO a dynamic iris can't match the JVC's incredible native contrast. It's the JVC's ability to show really white whites on the screen at the same time as really deep blacks that makes it so special. It sparkles! The Epson simply can't do that. As a result, it's 3D is never going to be as rich and deep as the JVC's. In comparison, it looks flatter. The scenes that come to mind are ones from the interior of Galaxar's ship, especially Susan's glittering suit, and her fellow monsters' shiny bodies. Even in bright scenes, though, the JVC's contrast makes such objects "pop" dramatically against their backgrounds. In terms of contrast, the Epson 6010 is to Jessica Alba as the JVC RS45 is to Jessica Alba wet. But that's not all 3D is. In terms of ghosting, the Epson 6010 is to Jessica Alba as the JVC RS45 is to Jessica Alba with a sack over her head.

The one movie that surprised me was "The Universe: Seven Wonders of the Solar System." I thought this would be a no-brainer win for the JVC. Because of the numerous space shots, the JVC can look spectacular, even if there are several instance of "dark ghosting." But the Epson really surprised me here. Probably, it's a matter of it's being primarily animation, but I thought the Epson held up very well in terms of contrast in this production. The blacks were very satisfying, and I noticed no instances of those horrible "white ghosts" of planets and stars against the inky blacks of space. I may not have had as many "OMG that's friggin incredible" moments like I did with the JVC, but there was never a single "OMG that's awful" moment, either.

We all keep saying the same thing - with 3D it's pick your poison. There's no perfect 3D display at this point. For those scenes when it's good, the JVC's 3D is phenomenally good. IMO, the 6010 doesn't hold a candle to the RS45 in dark scenes, in terms of 3D or 2D. For movies with many bright scenes (with "dark ghosting"), the JVC's 3D is just plain torture to watch. I can't say the same for the Epson. It's very good 3D in just about every scene I watched. I never once felt like cursing at the screen as I've found myself doing with the RS45.

I haven't watch much 2D so far - a few clips from movies and episodes of Fringe. It's definitely a different experience than watching on the JVC, but it was quite good. IMO, it's a definite improvement over my Panasonic AE4000. It's iris is non-intrusive, but since my head was about a foot away, I could hear it. In a normal mounting position, it simply wouldn't be a problem. When a scene fades to black, the iris closes completely, so there's no light from the projector hitting the screen at all. It's be a matter of taste, of course, but after seeing the JVC's native contrast without an iris, I'm not terribly impressed by auto irises in general. I don't particularly care for the auto iris on my Panny, and it can be almost seizure inducing at times (a bit of an exaggeration, but in some movies I really don't like it).

It holds its own very well with the RS45 in bright scenes, as expected. I think its frame interpolation is better than the Panasonic's, and the JVC's. I watched a bit on low, but most on normal (the middle setting). Motion on the high setting looked too artificial. What I didn't see was the strange "mosquito noise" type artifacts on edges that I get with FI on the Panny. I think I could learn to live with it for some content. That's more than I ever said about the RS40, or the Panny, or my Samsung flat panels.

I'm leaning toward keeping this projector, though I want to give it another day, and more different types of content, before I decide for sure. If nothing else, it will widen my perspective. For critical viewing in 2D, it's defintiely going to be a JVC. That will be my RS40, since if I keep the Epson, it will be in trade for my RS45. 3D on the RS40, IMO, is superior to 3D on the RS45, though in terms of ghosting, the Epson still wins easily. JVC took a big step backward this year, instead of improving their 3D.

I wonder sometimes how decisions are made in these corporate environments. Does JVC do focus groups in which they ask viewers what they think, or is it just a bunch of engineers in dorky glasses doing math and hoping for the best? And how much is left up to clueless marketing reps, who design charts and graphs that show why their technology is so much better than the competition, but without feedback from actual users?

Anyway, I don't have measurements to give you - just opinions, and long-winded ones at that.

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post #1274 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 06:52 PM
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I think there is such as too bright in 2D. It can actually cause eye strain when scenes transition from dark to bright. Maybe you can use an ND filter to cut the light down a bit.
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post #1275 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 07:03 PM
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Joseph, that was an outstanding overview of 3D on the Epson. These reviews combined with Jason's are creating a complete picture of what one can expect for these Epsons projectors. It allows one to really make an informed choice, and thats what I love about AVS.

Thank you Wniel, look forward to further impressions of 3D!
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post #1276 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Joseph - thanks for the great details. It looks like you and I are seeing the same thing in regard to 2D and 3D performance. I didn't have high expectations for an LCD's first attempt at 3D, but you have to give them some credit for their first shot at 3D - it's quite good.

I think this is a nice overall projector for 2D and 3D, plus great brightness for the folks who want to watch HDTV with ambient light or need the extra 3D lumens due to lower gain screen. (or HP addicts who want a sun tan )


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post #1277 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 07:50 PM
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Absolutely. I'm impressed with what they've been able to pull off. If we could combine the JVC's native contrast with the Epson's performance wrt ghosting, we'd have one amazing projector.

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post #1278 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 08:29 PM
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Thanks for your opinion Joseph. Your reactions kinda go along with my fear of the Epson. I'm guessing but I think in 3D I could probably sacrifice some contrast for much less ghosting and more brightness. For 2D however, less contrast and dimmer whites and such in darker scenes is a big downer for the pickiest who are very picky about black levels and contrast. Seeing that you are keeping your RS40 for critical viewing and that zombie also bought an RS55 for his sci-fi viewing that pretty much tells me that there is definitely a noticeable difference in contrast for 2D viewing.

Maybe I should watch a movie again on my RS2 and if it still looks good maybe I'll think about selling my RS45 then getting the Epson. That way if 2D doesn't suffice on the Epson then I can watch it on the RS2 and do 3D on the Epson. Argh! If only I had more patience!
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post #1279 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Absolutely. I'm impressed with what they've been able to pull off. If we could combine the JVC's native contrast with the Epson's performance wrt ghosting, we'd have one amazing projector.

Yes, a JVepson, JVony, or a JVenq would be great choices!
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post #1280 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

There were only 13 hours on the Epson 6010 when I got it. I'm not sure how much more "breaking in" it might go through. Overall, though, I've probably gotten a pretty good feel for it. IMO, Epson has done a really good job with 3D on this projector. If ghosting is at or near the top of your list of qualities that make a good 3D display, you're really going to like it. I think I must be extremely sensitive to ghosting compared to most other people, because I usually see it where other people say they don't. I can see ghosting on the Epson, but it's very, very minor. It doesn't match the two DLP displays I've seen (Mits DLP rear projector and Acer 5360 projector), but I'd rate it above all the rest (JVCs, Panasonic and Samsung plasmas, various 3D LCDs from all the major manufacturers). It may not best a couple of LG passive LCD displays that I've seen, but generally speaking I don't care for 3D on those sets for a variety of other reasons, and if you get too far off axis they can ghost like crazy. The Epson does very well in both "white ghosting" (light objects overlapping dark backgrounds) and "black ghosting" (black objects against very light backgrounds). On most displays, it's one or the other, but Epson seems to have found a way to do justice to both. Franky, I found that surprising. I expected the light on dark ghosting problems I've seen on just about every other LCD display I've watched.

Ironically, I saw telltale ghosting in gray on gray overlapping areas (Monsters vs Aliens, the large chamber where Susan meets her fellow monsters for the first time - in the walls). Again, it was minimal, and most people probably wouldn't notice, but I thought it strange that this scene would ghost a tiny bit on the Epson, while I can't recall seeing it ghost in the least on other displays.

I agree with Jason about the Epson glasses. They're very comfortable and light, they sync up easily, and they seem color neutral and bright. I also had a chance to do a direct A/B comparison with a pair of the new Sony PlayStation 3 universal glasses. I didn't spend much time doing it, but to me that appeared the same. The Sony glasses are only $50, so about half of what the Epson glasses cost. The Sony glasses also synced with my Samsung LCD display, and just as effortlessly. I couldn't get the Epson glasses to sync with my Samsung, so I'd be much more inclined to buy Sony glasses as extras.

I watched equal amounts of 3D in 3D Cinema mode and 3D THX mode (the 6010 has this, while the 5010 does not). 3D Dynamic mode's colors were far too off for my taste. I'm sure Jason has tweaked those odd colors to get something much more accurate. I couldn't. But I didn't need the extra light of dynamic mode anyway.

As a matter of fact, I was getting plenty of light in THX mode on my 110" HP 2.8 gain screen. Much more and the black levels would have been too high for my taste. I had 3D brightness set to medium, although low also worked on my screen at this point in the lamp's life (i.e. brand new). I tried high, medium and low, and medium had really good brightness without any serious ghosting. The iris is not active in 3D mode, of course, but I really didn't feel a need for it.

It's always buyer beware when relying on other peoples' opinions, but...

I believe that people who are happy with LCD projector technology are going to pleased as punch with the Epson. It's 3D is really, really good. IMO, ghosting is not an issue on this projector - plain and simple. You can find it, but unless you go looking, it never blatantly calls attention to itself like the JVC RS45 does, or like both my Samsung displays do. Color is very good out of the box, as is shadow detail (especially in THX mode). Sharpness is not quite the equal of my RS45. (It's a tiny bit soft on the right side, though convergence is generally very good.). It has manual controls for zoom and focus, but that wasn't a problem, since I don't have a CIH screen. It just took a couple of minutes to set it up.

The Epson's weak area, IMO, is LCD's weak area in general when you compare it to the JVC - contrast. I'm absolutely spoiled by the deep, rich contrast of the JVC, for 2D and 3D. It's not just black level that sets the JVC apart. When in 2D mode, the Epson's iris closes altogether, so the screen is as black as it can possibly get, but IMO a dynamic iris can't match the JVC's incredible native contrast. It's the JVC's ability to show really white whites on the screen at the same time as really deep blacks that makes it so special. It sparkles! The Epson simply can't do that. As a result, it's 3D is never going to be as rich and deep as the JVC's. In comparison, it looks flatter. The scenes that come to mind are ones from the interior of Galaxar's ship, especially Susan's glittering suit, and her fellow monsters' shiny bodies. Even in bright scenes, though, the JVC's contrast makes such objects "pop" dramatically against their backgrounds. In terms of contrast, the Epson 6010 is to Jessica Alba as the JVC RS45 is to Jessica Alba wet. But that's not all 3D is. In terms of ghosting, the Epson 6010 is to Jessica Alba as the JVC RS45 is to Jessica Alba with a sack over her head.

The one movie that surprised me was "The Universe: Seven Wonders of the Solar System." I thought this would be a no-brainer win for the JVC. Because of the numerous space shots, the JVC can look spectacular, even if there are several instance of "dark ghosting." But the Epson really surprised me here. Probably, it's a matter of it's being primarily animation, but I thought the Epson held up very well in terms of contrast in this production. The blacks were very satisfying, and I noticed no instances of those horrible "white ghosts" of planets and stars against the inky blacks of space. I may not have had as many "OMG that's friggin incredible" moments like I did with the JVC, but there was never a single "OMG that's awful" moment, either.

We all keep saying the same thing - with 3D it's pick your poison. There's no perfect 3D display at this point. For those scenes when it's good, the JVC's 3D is phenomenally good. IMO, the 6010 doesn't hold a candle to the RS45 in dark scenes, in terms of 3D or 2D. For movies with many bright scenes (with "dark ghosting"), the JVC's 3D is just plain torture to watch. I can't say the same for the Epson. It's very good 3D in just about every scene I watched. I never once felt like cursing at the screen as I've found myself doing with the RS45.

I haven't watch much 2D so far - a few clips from movies and episodes of Fringe. It's definitely a different experience than watching on the JVC, but it was quite good. IMO, it's a definite improvement over my Panasonic AE4000. It's iris is non-intrusive, but since my head was about a foot away, I could hear it. In a normal mounting position, it simply wouldn't be a problem. When a scene fades to black, the iris closes completely, so there's no light from the projector hitting the screen at all. It's be a matter of taste, of course, but after seeing the JVC's native contrast without an iris, I'm not terribly impressed by auto irises in general. I don't particularly care for the auto iris on my Panny, and it can be almost seizure inducing at times (a bit of an exaggeration, but in some movies I really don't like it).

It holds its own very well with the RS45 in bright scenes, as expected. I think its frame interpolation is better than the Panasonic's, and the JVC's. I watched a bit on low, but most on normal (the middle setting). Motion on the high setting looked too artificial. What I didn't see was the strange "mosquito noise" type artifacts on edges that I get with FI on the Panny. I think I could learn to live with it for some content. That's more than I ever said about the RS40, or the Panny, or my Samsung flat panels.

I'm leaning toward keeping this projector, though I want to give it another day, and more different types of content, before I decide for sure. If nothing else, it will widen my perspective. For critical viewing in 2D, it's defintiely going to be a JVC. That will be my RS40, since if I keep the Epson, it will be in trade for my RS45. 3D on the RS40, IMO, is superior to 3D on the RS45, though in terms of ghosting, the Epson still wins easily. JVC took a big step backward this year, instead of improving their 3D.

I wonder sometimes how decisions are made in these corporate environments. Does JVC do focus groups in which they ask viewers what they think, or is it just a bunch of engineers in dorky glasses doing math and hoping for the best? And how much is left up to clueless marketing reps, who design charts and graphs that show why their technology is so much better than the competition, but without feedback from actual users?

Anyway, I don't have measurements to give you - just opinions, and long-winded ones at that.

Read the professional reviews of 3D on the JVCs. You won't find anything nearly as negative as you've written. There seems to be a disconnect of some kind, which is really confusing.

Here's what Art at Projector Reviews had to say about ghosting -- JVC vs. Epson

"The Epson offers three settings for the glasses, the brightest being the one with the most ghosting. That brightest setting offers a bit more ghosting than the JVC's 3D mode, but the medium and low modes are cleaner than the JVC can do. Flawless 3D, however, isn’t out there yet, so 3D is not for the perfectionist."

The Epson apparently has "ghosting" that is worse than the JVC if you use the bright setting with the glasses for the Epson.

From what I've seen flawless 2D isn't out there yet either, so I would guess 2D isn't for the perfectionist!
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post #1281 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 09:43 PM
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I had a few pms asking what I decided on for my secondary unit, the secret is out! This is my combo lineup until the next wave of units hit. I got the HW30 for an incredible deal I could not pass up from a forums member.

HW30 for HDTV/Gaming
Epson for Movies/3D

Zombie - I am getting severe black crush on the HW30 and I remember having this issue when I originally owned it running a ps3 for bluray duty. I really don't want to have to buy another dedicated player so I am going to shoot you a pm to see if you can help with a few settings.

I also picked up the monster glasses and will test them against a few other pairs I have here. Surprisingly the cheap $50 ps3 3D glasses do great with both machines for the most part.

Attachment 235525
LL
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post #1282 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Read the professional reviews of 3D on the JVCs. You won't find anything nearly as negative as you've written. There seems to be a disconnect of some kind, which is really confusing.

Here's what Art at Projector Reviews had to say about ghosting -- JVC vs. Epson

"The Epson offers three settings for the glasses, the brightest being the one with the most ghosting. That brightest setting offers a bit more ghosting than the JVC's 3D mode, but the medium and low modes are cleaner than the JVC can do. Flawless 3D, however, isn't out there yet, so 3D is not for the perfectionist."

The Epson apparently has "ghosting" that is worse than the JVC if you use the bright setting with the glasses for the Epson.

From what I've seen flawless 2D isn't out there yet either, so I would guess 2D isn't for the perfectionist!

I've seen the JVC RS45/X30 with 2D and 3D, the BluRays I saw in 3D are Monsters vs Aliens (probably 30 mins of it sampling different scenes) and Ultimate Wave Tahiti (various scenes). I didn't notice any ghosting worth mentioning but what I did notice was flickering which did detract from the otherwise very high quality 3D effect/depth. If the flickering could somehow be reduced I feel the 3D looked quite good on the JVC compared to most people who trash it and call it unusable. My bigger concern with the JVC is I was seeing this with a bulb with under 100 hours on it, I'm concerned about accelerated lumens lost as the lamp ages (even with only 500 hours) based on the trend for JVC lamps to prematurely dim which would then be a major problem watching 3D due to low lumens.
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post #1283 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Read the professional reviews of 3D on the JVCs. You won't find anything nearly as negative as you've written. there seems to be a disconnect of some kind, which is really confusing.

We all have our preferences. I think, based on what you've said about ghosting in the past, that you might be more inclined to agree with me than those reviewers if you saw the ghosting that I see on my RS45. It's possible I got a lemon, sure, but there are many such reports.

I don't mean to put people off the JVC. 3D is still a small part of what we all watch (unless you're seriously addicted). For most people, most of the time, the RS45 is an incredible projector. Its 2D is spectacular. And as I've said many times, in dark scenes its 3D is spectacular. Every other 3D display I've seen pales in comparison. But when it's bad, it's really bad.

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post #1284 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 09:56 PM
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You can watch certain movies on the JVC with very little ghosting for sure, but some things have more than others. I also think the flickering combining with the pre-ghosting / "barely ghosting" is sort of like a 3D convergence issue and you lose perceived sharpness at times in 3D on the JVC.

On the Epson, Tahiti Wave and Under the Sea looked clearer even though the JVC had not much ghosting on these.

I agree with Joseph's review on the Epson, I don't think JMALTO, Zombie, Joseph, or my review are that far off from each other.



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post #1285 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I had a few pms asking what I decided on for my secondary unit, the secret is out! This is my combo lineup until the next wave of units hit. I got the HW30 for an incredible deal I could not pass up from a forums member.

HW30 for HDTV/Gaming
Epson for Movies/3D

Zombie - I am getting severe black crush on the HW30 and I remember having this issue when I originally owned it running a ps3 for bluray duty. I really don't want to have to buy another dedicated player so I am going to shoot you a pm to see if you can help with a few settings.

I also picked up the monster glasses and will test them against a few other pairs I have here. Surprisingly the cheap $50 ps3 3D glasses do great with both machines for the most part.

Attachment 235525

I have those 2 sitting side by side as well. That's a nice combo, especially since the Sony lamps have been so well behaved.

I run the HW30 with the HTPC, Himedia 900b and a Samsung DB player, but don't recall having an issue with black crush. Does it have anything to do with std vs. extended hdmi?

I have to order a pair of these PS3 glasses I keep hearing you guys talk about. I think Joseph mentioned it as well.


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post #1286 of 3270 Old 01-27-2012, 10:51 PM
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The PS3 glasses are really bright, I can't wait to compare them to the MV3D ones to see how they stack up. The only downside with the PS3 ones are they do ghost a fair amount but using the HW30's options I could tweak most of what I watched tonight using the depth slider. I will say the HW30 does handle 3D well on a HP screen, I was pretty impressed with overall brightness and these glasses which are the same ones I have for my Epson currently.

You have a PM about some calibration settings. I might suck it up and drag my Samsung BDP out of the home theater room just to test it. This is bringing back flashbacks of me almost throwing my PS3 controller last time I owned this projector
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Wnielsenbb, how can you even consider a projector with 3 pixel color shift, IMHO its high definition is completely destroyed!. You better retun it for a more decent one, Epson is good at that....
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post #1288 of 3270 Old 01-28-2012, 06:55 AM
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I agree with Jason about the Epson glasses. They're very comfortable and light, they sync up easily, and they seem color neutral and bright. I also had a chance to do a direct A/B comparison with a pair of the new Sony PlayStation 3 universal glasses. I didn't spend much time doing it, but to me that appeared the same. The Sony glasses are only $50, so about half of what the Epson glasses cost. The Sony glasses also synced with my Samsung LCD display, and just as effortlessly. I couldn't get the Epson glasses to sync with my Samsung, so I'd be much more inclined to buy Sony glasses as extras.

Thanks for the great post, Joe! Between you and Jason, I am now getting a good feel for what I can expect from the Epson...

Regarding the post I quoted above, are you saying that the Epson and the Sony PS3 glasses can be used interchangeably with the 6010? And that they looked just as good to you? How about the feel and comfort? And do the Sony glasses fit over prescription glasses without issue?

Quote:


The Epson's weak area, IMO, is LCD's weak area in general when you compare it to the JVC - contrast. I'm absolutely spoiled by the deep, rich contrast of the JVC, for 2D and 3D. It's not just black level that sets the JVC apart. When in 2D mode, the Epson's iris closes altogether, so the screen is as black as it can possibly get, but IMO a dynamic iris can't match the JVC's incredible native contrast. It's the JVC's ability to show really white whites on the screen at the same time as really deep blacks that makes it so special. It sparkles! The Epson simply can't do that.

That is unfortunate and disappointing. Since I am not particularly dazzled by JVC's picture, I assume that I would be even more disappointed with the Epson on 2D...

In 2D, how does it look in mid to bright scenes in comparison to the JVC? This is JVC's weak area (IMHO, of course ), and my biggest area of complaint. JVCs simply look flat to me compared to a good DLP, and I am wondering if the Epson's mid and bright scene performance is closer to DLP or to JVC.

Thanks again for a great writeup!

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The good:
1) powered convergence adjustment. Holy crap, why return this thing when it has this? That is like returning it because the focus is off. It took me 2 minutes to fix convergence (once I figured out I was adjusting the corner with the square and not the menu ), far less time than adjusting the lens shift.

I actually had a customer sell his projector to his neighbor because perfect fucus was between two lens click stops and then he orderded another one from us hoping that he would obtain perfect focus at a focus click stop with the second one. The problem with all this was he had it shelf mounted and could have just moved it slightly forward or back to obtain perfect click on focus. When I explained this to him, I could see the light bulb light up in his head even over the phone. We both laughed.

Then I had a customer who was really angry that we sold him a bad replacement bulb. After saying we would of course replace it, I asked him what was wrong with it? He said he had read that this manufacturer projectors had bulb problems and his replacement was for the models in issue. OK. What was wrong with the bulb? Was it not lighting. No. It was lighting. Was it flickering? No no flicker. Was it bright? Yes it was really bright. OK. I asked what was wrong with it. It wouldn't let me reset the bulb hour meter in the projector. I suggested that perhaps he might not be following the reset instructions. He said he was and tried it 15 times and it must be the bulb's fault. I tried to explain that it really has nothing to do with the bulb and hour meters can be reset without changing the bulb. I asked that he go to his projector and let me read the masnuasl and execute the instructions I read him. I called up the manual and found the hour reset instructions. First step, you must start with the projector on stand by. I read that to him. The phone went silent. He said I think I know what I did wrong. I apologize and will call you right back if I can't reset it now. He didn't call back.

In restrospect this stuff is funny but it is easy to get frustrated when its your machine and something doesn't seem to be going right. Operator error that you think is equipment malfunction. Believe you me it happens to all of us and even to the best of the industry professionals.

At least when you buy from AV Science, we are available most of time to serve as your check list co pilot and flight instructor.
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post #1290 of 3270 Old 01-28-2012, 07:53 AM
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wniel - I just got another HW30 and this one is easily 1 full green pixel shifted left and one blue shifted vertically. On the Epson I never noticed this, but on the HW30 if you switch the panel correction on and off you can easily see sharpness being taken away from the image when it is on (meaning corrected.) I am not sure if this is intended or what, but it is very easily noticed with text on the screen (watching a regular TV picture or movie isn't as noticeable when swapping.) For clarification, the projector now has near-perfect convergence all the way around the screen after the adjustments. I also returned my first Epson because i was 2-3 pixels shifted in red and the new unit looks drastically better without any corrections IMO.

I think I read about people saying using panel alignment adjustments can actually make the picture worse depending on how far off the unit is to start with.
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