JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 07:22 PM
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I thoroughly enjoyed this review and it was full of good information, and pictures. Thanks to Jason and Mark. I have to say that while I was underwhelmed with the W7000 performance and bugs, it has not yet been scratched from my list. I had high expectations for this unit, so I am not sure if I am going to just go cost effective and try the Acer 9500 for a year or so or not. I am a hopeless DLP fan and have 4 pairs of DLP glasses. Once you see 3D on DLP you get kind of stuck with it.
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post #122 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 07:45 PM
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Zombie, AVS4,

Huge thanks for your effort!

... Altan
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post #123 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 07:51 PM
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Being able to see how each projector performs with respect to "ghosting" on a particular scene is about as blunt as it gets. This is the first review I know of that compared several projectors in this manner with irrefutable evidence as to performance. The professional reviewers now need to step up to the plate.

This was exemplary work by Zombie and Mark -- hats off to the two of you!
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post #124 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 07:59 PM
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If the hw30 is that close to the Benq, and I don't mean to reign on the Benq party, but I'd have to say, why buy the Benq instead of the Sony?

I mean the Sony doesn't appear to ghost hardly at all, so what's left other than a tad bit of sharpness and some DLP POP which isn't even consistently ahead if we go by the RS-45 vs. DLP?


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post #125 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

If the hw30 is that close to the Benq, and I don't mean to reign on the Benq party, but I'd have to say, why buy the Benq instead of the Sony?

I mean the Sony doesn't appear to ghost hardly at all, so what's left other than a tad bit of sharpness and some DLP POP which isn't even consistently ahead if we go by the RS-45 vs. DLP?

I am sure the gap is even bigger for 120hz content such as games though.

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post #126 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 08:09 PM
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True, forgot about gaming, even I admit to prefer gaming slightly on DLP and I'm not a big gamer. Other than that, it's going to be tough to steer people towards the Benq over the Sony given the major hit in black levels with the Benq.

For me anyhow, the two projectors I most often recommend will continue to be the JVC RS-45 and the Sony hw30, those are the two I have been recommending the most over the past 6 months, just depending if someone is a black fanatic or wants 3D more.


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post #127 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

If the hw30 is that close to the Benq, and I don't mean to reign on the Benq party, but I'd have to say, why buy the Benq instead of the Sony?

I mean the Sony doesn't appear to ghost hardly at all, so what's left other than a tad bit of sharpness and some DLP POP which isn't even consistently ahead if we go by the RS-45 vs. DLP?

Price could be an issue for some just to use the Sony as a secondary unit. The HW30 is not cheap after you factor in glasses but if you don't already have DLP-Link glasses then you are only saving roughly $300-400 off the top by going with the BenQ.
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post #128 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 08:34 PM
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What an excellent thread. Kudos to Zombie and Mark for the effort here.
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post #129 of 3270 Old 12-26-2011, 08:45 PM
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What an excellent thread. Kudos to Zombie and Mark for the effort here.

+1 This is great info, thanks for all the work involved!
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post #130 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 02:59 AM
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Strange ...

I tried the HW30 and own the 95ES, they do ghost a bit.
That can be corrected with 3D glasses apertude set at 3 (4 being maximum).
I need to get the Monster Glasses to try and get something better because I do not find 3D that satisfactory.

On the other hand I tried the X30 and the X70.
They do not ghost at all even using the JVC glasses?

Strange we get opposite results?
Could it come from the source of 3D?
We used only BR with an Oppo.
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post #131 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 05:26 AM
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You must have played content that doesn't ghost on the RS-45, the point is I suppose that on the Sony hw30 you can correct some of the ghosting or tune it out with the MV3D glasses, but the same cannot be said for the JVC, on the JVC there is no tuning it out. I think a few people said earlier that there is some content some machines ghost on that the JVC does not ghost on, but when you average it out the JVC's ghost much more.


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post #132 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

You must have played content that doesn't ghost on the RS-45, the point is I suppose that on the Sony hw30 you can correct some of the ghosting or tune it out with the MV3D glasses, but the same cannot be said for the JVC, on the JVC there is no tuning it out. I think a few people said earlier that there is some content some machines ghost on that the JVC does not ghost on, but when you average it out the JVC's ghost much more.

I can't speak for the VW30 owners but can say that with the VW95 I have found the MV3D glasses in the DEFAULT setting work best for me. No tuning necessary.
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post #133 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackox View Post

Strange ...

I tried the HW30 and own the 95ES, they do ghost a bit.
That can be corrected with 3D glasses apertude set at 3 (4 being maximum).
I need to get the Monster Glasses to try and get something better because I do not find 3D that satisfactory.

On the other hand I tried the X30 and the X70.
They do not ghost at all even using the JVC glasses?

Strange we get opposite results?
Could it come from the source of 3D?
We used only BR with an Oppo.

What discs did you play on the X30/X70? I use a RS45/Oppo 93 and there is plenty of ghosting with the right discs/scenes.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #134 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 08:26 AM
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HI Jason,

Well this thread was the final vote for me purchasing an HW30, thanks for the great work you guys put into this mini test. Not to mention I got a great price on it(boxing day sale) so that helped.

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post #135 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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HI Jason,

Well this thread was the final vote for me purchasing an HW30, thanks for the great work you guys put into this mini test. Not to mention I got a great price on it(boxing day sale) so that helped.

Walter - Hi, that's great you finally made a decision. You get the benefit of great 2D quality, very good 3D and inexpensive lamps as well.

That's the second reference to 'boxing day' sale i've seen, so I had to looked it up to see what it was. I see it's a term primarily used in Canada and the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_Day
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post #136 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 08:51 AM
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Hi Jason,

Well it's more like boxing week or 2 weeks, it's like another excuse for stores to have another sale. Yes the price was good, under 3200 so I couldn't pass on it, plus your mini test was the final push, thanks. I sent you a PM too.

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post #137 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 09:00 AM
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Hi Jason,

Well it's more like boxing week or 2 weeks, it's like another excuse for stores to have another sale. Yes the price was good, under 3200 so I couldn't pass on it, plus your mini test was the final push, thanks. I sent you a PM too.

Seems like you made a smart pick. The Sony seems to be the best rounded projector of the bunch.

I was surprised to see how bad the JVC ghosted in those screen caps. Once JVC figures the ghosting, their projector will be a slam dunk for me when I am ready to upgrade in a few years.
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post #138 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 09:11 AM
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Seems like you made a smart pick. The Sony seems to be the best rounded projector of the bunch.

I was surprised to see how bad the JVC ghosted in those screen caps. Once JVC figures the ghosting, their projector will be a slam dunk for me when I am ready to upgrade in a few years.

Yes, they probably need to do a redesign of their chip to get better 3D performance. Until then, JVC 3D users are going to have to put up with some ghosting. It's a shame, too, because otherwise the 3D performance is as good as the 2D performance - with deep, rich contrast that makes the 3D image look even more incredible. The ghosting is only there a few times in most movies I've watched, but when it's there it's very distracting. (I can't help but look for it. It's a sickness. )

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post #139 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 09:18 AM
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Well hopefully in a few years (3 or so) there are more LED based projectors in the affordable range then I'll upgrade.

Walter
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post #140 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 11:03 AM
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Art has some good things to say about the W7000 in his updated mini review so I'll wait for his comments about his conversations with Benq.
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post #141 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Yes, they probably need to do a redesign of their chip to get better 3D performance. Until then, JVC 3D users are going to have to put up with some ghosting. It's a shame, too, because otherwise the 3D performance is as good as the 2D performance - with deep, rich contrast that makes the 3D image look even more incredible. The ghosting is only there a few times in most movies I've watched, but when it's there it's very distracting. (I can't help but look for it. It's a sickness. )

I have this disease as well..... Of course mine is worse than yours since I also notice flicker a fair amount! If they can make big improvements in these 2 areas along with FI for 3d, next years models will be awesome.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #142 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 11:58 AM
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Greetings all,

First of all, Zombie, great job. Seriously, great info. If you could work the Panny and Epson in there, I can take January off...

I have a question for those of you playing with more than one projector, or even just one, regarding ghosting and rainbows. One of the problems I'm having in "translating" what I find for our readers, is figuring out where my eyes and brain stand, relative to other folks with 3D ghosting issues.

I'm seeing the same from various threads. Some folks are hating ghosting and basing a good part of their decision making re 3D on it. Others hardly seem to care. That's not much different that rainbows, or audible noise.

So, in the attempt to communicate more effectively, I'm really trying to get a handle on the range of affect ghosting is having on different people.

What I'm trying to determine is how ghosting is affecting people, compared to (for those who have worked with DLP projectors - relative to rainbows. ie. are folks who are pretty rainbow sensitive, more or less likely to notice ghosting, and dislike it more or less...

I don't seem to notice ghosting much - or rather (where I can adjust the projector/glasses), barely or not at all.

On the other hand I'm moderately rainbow sensitive. As much as most folks who are, not as bad as some who are "overly" sensitive to rainbows. (I can spot occasionally on a good 6x wheel, but even on a good five, I'll rarely spot them except when moving my head during the right content (mostly white moving across black - or reversed).

So, for those of you seeing ghosting, I'd love to hear back - let me know if you are at all rainbow sensitive (and how much - lets say - choices are: No - Slightly - Moderately - A lot ("drives me crazy").

I dropped this "question" into this thread because I recognize a number of you, and also because several of you are working with multiple projectors... I'll be dropping back to this thread to see if anyone cares to comment.

Thanks! -art

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post #143 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 12:29 PM
 
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I didn't like going to brightness 4 on the Sony 3D settings. Optimum ghosting wise and good brightness is the 3.

The BenQ, at least on my screen, was brighter than the Sony HW30 and the BenQ was sharper. Contrast was significantly better on the HW30 but I need to do some more tests and settings to see if I can optimize the contrast more on the BenQ.

I would not chose one over the other based on ghosting because it was so minimal on the Sony. I will reiterate, screen shots of torture frames do not replicate what you will see on the screen rolling ther clip. Take the Despicable me shot and see the ghosting on the lamp poles. In real life your attention is drawn elsewhre on the screen and you will not notice the ghosting on the poles unless you focus on them. Even then, with the Sony it is barely noticeable. Calkling a spade a spade, the BenQ does need some software revisions but for my use I could live wioth it until the software is revised. I don't continually switch sources and go bsack from 2D to 3D frequently. But when I change channels on the FIOS box, the screen goes blank, the HDMI 2 box (I am using HDMI2) box lights up, it says searching, and a few seconds later the picture appears. Annoying if one is switching between two games but given the brightness, sharpness, punch, I could live with the annoyance.
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post #144 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Greetings all,

First of all, Zombie, great job. Seriously, great info. If you could work the Panny and Epson in there, I can take January off...

Thanks! -art

Art- Hi, this is Jason, we have spoken a few times on your site last year. thanks for the comments.

I think the hot topic this year are 3D and lag times for the new projectors. The under 3k pricing this year for a number of the new models is opening the doors to many new folks who are interested in 3D and gaming as well.

I'd like to see the tridef L/R stereo images used in the various projector shootouts as one of the tests. It can give a basic idea of how a particular projector handles ghosting in a tough, high contrast scene.

http://www.tridef.com/support/images...20x1080-lr.png

I think the patterns, along with the specific screenshot comparisons of tough scenes can go a long way to satisifying a potential customers need to know how much (if any) their new pride and joy will ghost.

In addition, SBS 3D console gaming is quite brutal on the LCOS projectors (in regard to ghosting). The DLP entries handle this much better.
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post #145 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 01:00 PM
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I didn't like going to brightness 4 on the Sony 3D settings. Optimum ghosting wise and good brightness is the 3.

The BenQ, at least on my screen, was brighter than the Sony HW30 and the BenQ was sharper. Contrast was significantly better on the HW30 but I need to do some more tests and settings to see if I can optimize the contrast more on the BenQ.

I would not chose one over the other based on ghosting because it was so minimal on the Sony. I will reiterate, screen shots of torture frames do not replicate what you will see on the screen rolling ther clip. Take the Despicable me shot and see the ghosting on the lamp poles. In real life your attention is drawn elsewhre on the screen and you will not notice the ghosting on the poles unless you focus on them. Even then, with the Sony it is barely noticeable. Calkling a spade a spade, the BenQ does need some software revisions but for my use I could live wioth it until the software is revised. I don't continually switch sources and go bsack from 2D to 3D frequently. But when I change channels on the FIOS box, the screen goes blank, the HDMI 2 box (I am using HDMI2) box lights up, it says searching, and a few seconds later the picture appears. Annoying if one is switching between two games but given the brightness, sharpness, punch, I could live with the annoyance.

What components are in your chain? Any VP?
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post #146 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 01:11 PM
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Art- Hi, this is Jason, we have spoken a few times on your site last year. thanks for the comments.

I'd like to see the tridef L/R stereo images used in the various projector shootouts as one of the tests. It can give a basic idea of how a particular projector handles ghosting in a tough, high contrast scene.

http://www.tridef.com/support/images...20x1080-lr.png

I think the patterns, along with the specific screenshot comparisons of tough scenes can go a long way to satisifying a potential customers need to know how much (if any) their new pride and joy will ghost.

Hey Jason! OK, I'm contemplating how to use the tridef, and how a still image might differ from running the same image "live", but that notwithstanding, I will load it onto my MacBook, and try feeding it to the projectors here. -art

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post #147 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 01:23 PM
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Art has some good things to say about the W7000 in his updated mini review so I'll wait for his comments about his conversations with Benq.

I just checked and I don't see any updates since he posted "part 2" of the BenQ review 12/24, are you finding an update more recent than that?
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post #148 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 01:30 PM
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What discs did you play on the X30/X70? I use a RS45/Oppo 93 and there is plenty of ghosting with the right discs/scenes.


Sammy along others.
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post #149 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 01:44 PM
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Well in an attempt to answer your question Art, I am not RBE sensitive but can make myself see it on certain units if I try. As far as ghosting goes, from the first time I saw Avatar on a 73" Mitsu DLP at HHGregg and compared that to their flagship Panny flatscreen I knew that I would never accept any level of ghosting. To this very day I spot it just about immediately on TVs at BB or wherever. They are getting much better though I must admit.

As far as the W7000, I am not averse to spending a bit more than the Acer but not at the expense of having to pay shipping back and forth to service the unit for the problems it has. Any idea when you will posting up about the W7000 and what you heard from Benq regarding the issues?
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post #150 of 3270 Old 12-27-2011, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Hey Jason! OK, I'm contemplating how to use the tridef, and how a still image might differ from running the same image "live", but that notwithstanding, I will load it onto my MacBook, and try feeding it to the projectors here. -art

Art - Hi, the only way I've use it so far is on a PC using the Nvidia 3D vision 'Stereo' viewer, where I can pick 2 images to display in 3D Frame packed mode.

You can give this a shot:

http://3dvision-blog.com/tag/mac-osx-3d-player/

It claims to handle frame sequential output with the right graphics card. Make sure the projector is showing 1080P 24FP (frame packed) and not SBS or top and bottom, etc.

I am trying to find the L/R image that Kraine posted on the X70. You can see just by looking at the noticeable crosstalk, that ghosting will show it's face in a number of the scenes I posted.
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