JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 52 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1531 of 3271 Old 02-03-2012, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadspad View Post

Great forum! I just saw the Sony at a local store and the picture seemed washed out compared to what I'm used to from my plasma. They were showing Green Lantern and the room was definitely not light controlled, open at one end. I assume that this fact along with possibly their screen choice and settings contributed to the overall picture, but I've never had a projector so I want to see if this is just a fact for projectors. I have a room that will be light controlled at night and have some light during the day (I live in the boonies!). My room is 16x20 with 10' ceilings. I was planning on a 120" screen with my viewing needs in the following order.

1) Sports (watch a lot of hockey and soccer)
2) Movies (lack of detail in shadow scenes bugs me)

3) 3D

4) Gaming

Would the Sony make sense with these needs in mind, and if so should I get a high gain screen to give it more of the Plasma look I'm used to. No one carries the Epson here at the moment. Thanks, sorry if this is the wrong spot to post this!

A high gain screen is a very good thing in your case. The HP is a great screen but the retro-reflective properties aren't ideal. There are high gain screens that are angular reflective so you can ceiling or high shelf mount your projector. That new curved Silverstar would be my first choice. DNP Supernova is another good one. Good screens aren't cheap, but they last forever. My Silverstar is on it's 4th projector.
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post #1532 of 3271 Old 02-03-2012, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

HW30 is superb!

I don't want to double post, but I think people may be looking at this thread and not necessarily looking at the HW30 thread.

if you are interested, take a look at my initial 3 hour comments I posted in the HW30 thread.

Click here for My HW30 3 hour comments

... Altan

Thanks for you impressions on the HW30, seems like you're really enjoying it!
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post #1533 of 3271 Old 02-03-2012, 11:16 PM
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Showrooms are generally not the best place to see a projector, some are ok. You have to find the high-end ones that have darkened dedicated rooms, but I guess it is gettting harder and harder these days.


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post #1534 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 01:33 AM
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I just finished watching a rough cut of my Botanical Garden video. I mounted the Epson this afternoon and rearranged my seating a little so as to get maximum gain from my HP screen. Even with the glasses brightness setting at "low," and in THX 3D mode, the image was so bright that I winced a few times. I've never before seen the level of detail and clarity that I saw in this video tonight. 3D on the Epson/HP combo absolutely rocks!

I want to thank my AVS friend Richard for giving me the opportunity to try the Epson in my home theater. It's thoroughly transformed my 3D projection experience.

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post #1535 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 01:38 AM
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We've talked about how much better the projectors are this year than last. For me, the glasses are also significantly better. These Epson glasses are a big improvement. They're brighter and more uniform than my JVC or Xpand 103 glasses. Also, with the Xpand glasses, there's a sort of "sweet spot" to get the cleanest image. If I turn my head a bit, the image softens up somewhat. I have yet to see that happen with the Epsons. And the new glasses are cheaper, lighter and more comfortable - at least for me.

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post #1536 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 03:31 AM
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Will the Epson glasses work with the JVC?


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Web Calculator v023 & v025
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post #1537 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Will the Epson glasses work with the JVC?

IIRC, JVC does not adhere(licensed) the MDI standard.
I suppose if you could get an MDI emitter to interface to the JVC it may work.

http://www.fullhd3dglasses.com/index.php/licensee-list/

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post #1538 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I got a chance to see a Sony HW30 today at a Best Buy Magnolia. Even though it wasn't warmed up, the ghosting wasn't bad at all. They had it playing on a 92" Stewart screen - probably a low gain gray. It was pretty dim, even when I asked the rep to make it brighter. He adjusted the glasses sync settings and had the projector at its highest brightness. I don't know how many hours might have been on the lamp.

I watched a little Imax: Under the Sea, Monsters vs Aliens clips and a chase scene from Transformers 3 - probably 15 minutes or so. I'm glad I got a chance to see it, but it didn't help. I still don't have a clue how it would look in my home theater. Whenever I see such a setup, though, it renews my appreciation for my HP screen and a light controlled viewing environment. I hope Deja Vu had a little more success evaluating the Epson 5010 than I did the Sony. Were I to go strictly on what I saw today, I'd dismiss it. The image was dim and noisy, which doesn't sound like the projector others have been describing. The Epson in my room is a whole world better, but I'm sure the Sony, properly set up, would look far better in my theater.

I want to go back with my own discs when I have more time. I was surprised, because today was the first day they were even set up to do 3D. Cable issues have prevented me from seeing it in the past. I'm a very good customer, so maybe they'll let me fiddle with it. Any suggestions, Jason?

this could be an exercise in futility if you can't get that HW30 in your house to evaluate. I would have a tough time trying to judge any projector outside my viewing room.

the tough part is, unless that projector is cranking out ~2500-3000 lumens on a low gain screen, both of us are likely going to be disappointed with any 3D performance without the 2.8 HP screen. We all have difference preferences, but there is no shame in being addicted to the intoxicating brightness of the HP - especially the 2.8

I watched the HW30 last night for about 3 hours of mixed content and re-appreciating the Sony since it's been sitting while I've been playing with the 5010 and RS55. I really like the FI in 3D.. actually I like the FI in 2D as well. I was watching Blade again and personally don't see any SOE, just a nice subtle assistance during pans and action scenes. IMO, it's the best FI vs the 5010 and RS45/55. I do like the 5010's FI a bit better than the JVC's, but the Sony is the only one I leave on all the time for 2D and 3D.

I am going to do some more A/B between the 5010 and HW30 this weekend. Each has unique features, but both are very good as 'all around' projectors. My particular HW30 is quiet, definitely the least noticeable of all the projectors i've tested so far. (they are about 1 foot from head @ seated position).

I agree on the Epson glasses - They my favorite of all the other factory glasses.
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post #1539 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 02:01 PM
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O.K. I just got back from my 5 1/2 hour round trip to the GTA (Brampton) to demo a 5010/6010. When I arrived home and walked through the door my wife said there was a message from Master Card and I was to contact it immediately. What does that tell you? I have to thank Wayne at Sonic Visions in Brampton Ontario for taking the time and making the effort to accomodate me, especially since the showroon is still under construction. We looked at convergence and it was very slightly off so I made the correction using Epson's panel alignment controls -- very easy and worked as advertised, at least for me. I saw some slight ghosting on the famous Grand Canyon scene, but without knowing what to look for I probably wouldn't have noticed -- unlike everyone else here who are totally annal! This projector has some serious horsepower in 3D dynamic mode. I tried the filters and they do cut some of the lumens and tame the "green", but maybe a bit too much. Dynamic 3D mode with glasses on doesn't look off as much as the dynamic mode for the 2D Epson 9500 does. I'll get my friend with the colorimeter over and make the corrections with filters just to see.

I liked what I saw and Wayne gave me a price for the 6010 I couldn't refuse so in the back of my car it went. He also threw in the 30' HDMI cable he'd used for the demo. I ordered 2 more pairs of Epson glasses to give me four since 2 come with the 6010. I also tried the Sony PS3 glasses I bought a week or so ago with a BB gift card and they work just fine. I don't game so lag times aren't of much interest to me, although I certainly understand why others are concerned.

These are just preliminary observations. More to come after I've had a chance to see it in my own environment. Compared to my Epson 7500 and 9500 this is a very large projector -- I was surprised at just how big it is. I'm past having "honeymoon periods" with new projectors so you'll hear it as I see it -- best thing is to have a look at any projector you're interested in yourself before you buy, if possible. I'll do a mini shootout with my 3D 720p Acer, which I will not part with! I would have had a look at the Sony, but it was considerably more expensive -- I don't know how Sony can compete when the competition includes a spare lamp, mount, 2 pairs of glasses, a 3 year warranty and some other goodies for hundreds less than the Sony when the Sony is on sale!!
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post #1540 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 02:08 PM
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New Epson 6010 owner bought 2 pair Sony Playstation 3D glasses on sale from Best Buy for $40, me and spouse tried them and compared them to the Epson 3D glasses. To make a long story short the Sony glasses are getting returned and I'm buying more Epson 3D glasses. The comfort of the Epson glasses are much, much better. The Sony glasses are fine for about 10 minutes but then are uncomfortable (for us) and the image looks a bit better on the Epson. The only thing that frustrates me about the Epson glasses is that they aren't USB-rechargeable like the Sony glasses are.

BTW put the 3D Brightness setting to High (that affects brightness of glasses) and watched a lot of The Ultimate Wave Tahiti and Avatar and so no negative effects (no ghosting/etc.) and definitely ups the brightness on my 1.3 gain screen.
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post #1541 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 02:10 PM
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I was almost certain you'd like it. Can't wait to read what you have to say.

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post #1542 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

... I would have had a look at the Sony, but it was considerably more expensive -- I don't know how Sony can compete when the competition includs a spare lamp, mount, 2 pairs of glasses, a 3 year warranty and some other goodies for hundreds less than the Sony when the Sony is on sale!!

The 6010 is certainly a good deal if you want those extras (and I think most would). It is not, however, night and day cheaper than the HW30 -- at least in the USA. I'm not even sure it is cheaper.

Pertaining to your comment above...

1) The HW30 includes 2 pairs of glasses
2) The HW30 has a 3 year warranty
3) It does not have a spare bulb for an included mount.

The bulbs are about $100 cheaper for the Sony, so you might be able to count $200 in savings over the PJs life (highly dependent on your usage).

When I looked I couldn't find the 6010 for anything less than $200 more than the price of the HW30 (AVS is competitive!), so it's pretty similar overall. At least based on my experience.

... Altan
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post #1543 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

The 6010 is certainly a good deal if you want those extras (and I think most would). It is not, however, night and day cheaper than the HW30 -- at least in the USA. I'm not even sure it is cheaper.

Pertaining to your comment above...

1) The HW30 includes 2 pairs of glasses
2) The HW30 has a 3 year warranty
3) It does not have a spare bulb for an included mount.

The bulbs are about $100 cheaper for the Sony, so you might be able to count $200 in savings over the PJs life (highly dependent on your usage).

When I looked I couldn't find the 6010 for anything less than $200 more than the price of the HW30 (AVS is competitive!), so it's pretty similar overall. At least based on my experience.

... Altan

I think that for once Canadians get an amazing deal on Epson projectors compared to what their American friends to the south pay. I have no idea why, but I'll take it. We're not susposed to talk price here, but I will say I'm feeling pretty good right now -- hopefully I'll be still feeling this way after I've spent some time with the projector!
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post #1544 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

O.K. I just got back from my 5 1/2 hour round trip to the GTA (Brampton) to demo a 5010/6010. When I arrived home and walked through the door my wife said there was a message from Master Card and I was to contact it immediately. What does that tell you? I have to thank Wayne at Sonic Visions in Brampton Ontario for taking the time and making the effort to accomodate me, erspecially since the showroon is still under construction. We looked at convergence and it was very slightly off so I made the correction using Epson's panel alignment controls -- very easy and worked as advertised, at least for me. I saw some slight ghosting on the famous Grand Canyon scene, but wwithout knowing what to look for I probably wouldn't have noticed -- unlike everyone else here who are totally annal! This projector has some serious horsepower in 3D dynamic mode. I tried the filters and they do cut some of the lumens and tame the "green", but maybe a bit too much. Dynamic 3D mode with glasses on doesn't look off as much as the dynamic mode for the 2D Epson 9500 does. I'll get my friend with the colorimeter over and make the corrections with filters just to see.

I liked what I saw and Wayne gave me a price for the 6010 I couldn't refuse so in the back of my car it went. He also threw in the 30' HDMI cable he'd used for the demo. I ordered 2 more pairs of Epson glasses to give me four since 2 come with the 6010. I also tried the Sony PS3 glasses I bought a week or so ago with a BB gift card and they work just fine. I don't game so lag times aren't of much interest to me, although I certainly understand why others are concerned.

These are just preliminary observations. More to come after I've had a chance to see it in my own environment. Compared to my Epson 7500 and 9500 this is a very large projector -- I was surprised at just how big it is. I'm past having "honeymoon periods" with new projectors so you'll hear it as I see it -- best thing is to have a look at any projector you're interested in yourself before you buy, if possible. I'll do a mini shootout with my 3D 720p Acer, which I will not part with! I would have had a look at the Sony, but it was considerably more expensive -- I don't know how Sony can compete when the competition includes a spare lamp, mount, 2 pairs of glasses, a 3 year warranty and some other goodies for hundreds less than the Sony when the Sony is on sale!!

I am anxious to hear your comparison of the epson to your acer for 3d. Isn't this fun.

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post #1545 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 05:10 PM
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It looks like the Benq W7000 is getting recalled and replaced with version 2.

That is what is being said on the Benq W7000 forum.
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post #1546 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 05:57 PM
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Congrats Deja on your new toy! The extra year added for the best warranty in the biz is worth a lot in my books.

And yes, in Canada, the Sony is not nearly as sweet of a deal as the Epson. And its the Dynamic mode thats the knockout punch it seems for the Epson. I think in most other catagories they are more similar than not.
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post #1547 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan webster View Post

I am anxious to hear your comparison of the epson to your acer for 3d. Isn't this fun.

Too bad he couldn't compare it to the Acer 9500, that would be a better match. Your calibrator said the 3D was better than the VW95, isn't that like a $10,000 projector. I'm blown away by the 3D on my 9500, the 2D is pretty darn good also. I would like to see it compared to those others here too, my guess is it would do very well in 2D and come out on top with 3D.
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post #1548 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 05:59 PM
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There appears to be a shortage of Acer 9500bd's at the moment.


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post #1549 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

There appears to be a shortage of Acer 9500bd's at the moment, I can't find a single place in the US selling them anymore (odd).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=new

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post #1550 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 06:06 PM
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I checked Amazon the other day and didn't see those, they must have added some new ones, those are selling for quite a bit more in price though then they used to be selling for.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

There appears to be a shortage of Acer 9500bd's at the moment, I can't find a single place in the US selling them anymore (odd).

Tiger has it in stock right now.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...FQNmhwodky7E2g
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post #1552 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 06:52 PM
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I am pretty excited for the new v2 of the w7000, I might have to re-buy just to see what they changed. I am still amazed someone as large as BenQ would not of caught the issues during the QA process since it took all of 10 minutes to notice them.
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post #1553 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I liked what I saw and Wayne gave me a price for the 6010 I couldn't refuse so in the back of my car it went. He also threw in the 30' HDMI cable he'd used for the demo. I ordered 2 more pairs of Epson glasses to give me four since 2 come with the 6010. I also tried the Sony PS3 glasses I bought a week or so ago with a BB gift card and they work just fine. I don't game so lag times aren't of much interest to me, although I certainly understand why others are concerned.

wow, I didn't expect you to actually get one.. the fact that it made it into the car on the ride home must say something positive.
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post #1554 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 07:26 PM
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Or everyone could just wait another 20 years for the Epson 61000 to be released, of course it's not 3D I don't think...
I just think it's funny people are still saying "are we there yet"...


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Or everyone could just wait another 20 years for the Epson 61000 to be released, of course it's not 3D I don't think...
I just think it's funny people are still saying "are we there yet"...

Epson may as well boost the brightness on that model and add 3D to it and release it late Summer. It will just be a matter of months and we'll all be talking about the new JVCs, Epsons, and Sony's and what they've done (or not done) about improving ghosting and other improvements in 3D!
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post #1556 of 3271 Old 02-04-2012, 10:55 PM
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O.K here's a few more thoughts after some 2D and 3D viewing. For 2D this projector is very similar to my 7500 and 9500 -- similar black level and look and quite bright. I know some here think that the 2D was improved, but I don't see it as being significantly better. The 3D so far has been a relief since the few things I've viewed have been ghost free and I've been paying particular attention to this. The motion is surprisingly good and I don't think FI would add much, but I'd take it if Epson added it for 3D. I'd like to see the DI added for 3D. The blacks in 3D are good, but could have been better with a DI, IMO. The Epson offers very bright images in 3D that are pretty much ghost-free and 3D so far is very impressive. if you're not interested in 3D then you should definitely look at some other projectors as well as the Epsons -- like the JVCs. If 3D is important to you (that's BD 3D) then put the Epson on your short list. Maybe I'll change my tune about 3D, but I'd be surprised since I have looked at some tough 3D demo material. Anyone with video material on external hard drives should seriously investigate the Oppo 93 3D BD player -- it plays back this stuff really well. So far it has been so much easier to use than my computer.
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Over at the Finnish site dvdplaza they've developed the best test pattern I've seen for evaluating crosstalk as it covers all shades of grey, and the second 3D channel is inverted.
A projector with perfect crosstalk will show no boxes within the greyscale rows:
Optoma HD33:

DLP technology has the least crosstalk, but even here its not perfect, as there are traces of crosstalk in the dark grey rows. This is because the micro mirrors have work their hardest to dither black, which requires the most switching. Having two channels suggests the single chip DLP is reaching its limit. But not to worry as the negligible level of ghosting is least evident for dark pixels.
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Epson 3010:

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Sony HW30ES:

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/b...f818708d1512f1
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post #1558 of 3271 Old 02-05-2012, 06:33 AM
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Ok, my turn...

I got my Epson 5010 home late Friday and really didn't get a chance to play with it until yesterday. I have no 3D source ready, so I was not able to watch any 3D what-so-ever. I wanted to try the 2D to 3D conversion, but I have a big-a$$ ISCO III anamorphic lens in front of the projector, so I assume that the emitter is being blocked. If I stand to the side of the projector and face the lens, I can get the glasses to sync up for a few seconds, but that's about it. I assume that I will need to buy an external emitter, right? Should I just buy Epson's own emitter or is there a better choice? I plan on mounting the emitter on top of my screen facing back at the audience. Being a complete 3D noob, am I doing the right thing?

Anyway, so back to 2D now, as that is all that I have seen so far. The first thing I noticed is that the 5010 lacks anamorphic support of any kind. As far as I can tell, with HDMI sources, I can't change the aspect ratio at all, as the projector locks onto the AR of the incoming signal. Lucky for me I use a DVDO Duo video processor, so this is not an issue at all, as the DVDO can handle the AR changes for me just fine, though I had been used to making the changes in the projector (rather than the DVDO) when I was using my JVC RS-35. So if you own an anamorphic lens or plan on getting one, you will absolutely NEED a video processor with this unit, OR you should buy the 6010, as I believe that anamorphic stretch is available in that unit (though I don't have a 6010 here to verify that belief). And if you plan on going CIH without an anamorphic lens, the zoom method will simply be too much of a pain, as the controls are manual for image shift, zoom, and focus.

I am using a 132" wide (144" diagonal) 2.8 High Power 2.35:1 screen and I sit at ~1.5 screen width away. SDE (screen door effect) is a total non issue at that distance, and I felt that it would only be noticed at about 1X or less at that size sceen, and even then it did not bother me personally at that distance. But over 1X I could not see it at all.

Though I have not calibrated the unit yet, and I have taken NO measurements, I find the unit to be very bright even in Cinema mode, so much so that I have no reason to want any more brightness from this unit, and might even prefer it to be a little dimmer. In comparison to my RS-35 with ~700 hours on the lamp, I would say that the Epson is at least twice as bright, maybe more. I will have to calibrate and measure to provide you with actual numbers, and I won't have time to do that until NEXT weekend unfortunately. I know it is not fair to compare an RS-35 with 700+ hours on it to an Epson with a brand new lamp, so please keep these facts in mind when reading my comments.

It has been suggested a couple of times in this thread that the Epson has a more "digital" look. What the heck are you guys talking about? I have sampled a number of Blu-ray sources, some film, some video, and some digital (like animations) and the Epson does NOT have any quality that I would label "digital" in any way what-so-ever. Films look very "film like", video looks very "video like", and animations look very digital, just the way they are supposed to look. I have owned a few LCD projectors in the past, back in the Panasonic 100 (not 1000) and Sanyo Z3/Z4 days and they definitely had a "digital" look to them. I was very surprised, and actually a bit disappointed to find that this new Epson did not have that digital look and in fact looks very smooth and analog like to me. I WANTED something more digital like, and the Epson is not it.

But just because the picture is smooth and analog like and not "digital" like, it does not mean that I do not like the picture. As a matter of fact, so far I prefer it over my RS-35's picture. Again, it is not fair to compare a JVC with 700+ hours on the lamp to a brand new Epson, but without measuring, I would guess that the Epson's ANSI contrast is significantly higher than JVCs...this results in a more contrasty picture in mid to bright scenes, and the blacks actually appear DARKER in those scenes due to the fact that the higher ANSI washes out the blacks less under those conditions - OR maybe what I am seeing is simply the result of watching a picture that is much brighter than that of my JVC. Without putting a new lamp in my JVC I don't know for sure.

Dark scene performance is very similar. The black level of the Epson is higher, but take a minute and do the math - If the projector is twice as bright and had IDENTICAL on/off contrast, the black level would be twice as high (simple mathematics), so of course the RS-35's black level is lower because the lamp is so much dimmer. I would need to add an ND 2X filter (maybe even 3X) to the Epson in order to compare them fairly. As far as dark scene contrast, so far I have not seen any significant difference, but it has only been one night.

As far as animations are concerned, it is no contest - the Epson is MUCH better - better color, better contrast, more pop and "wow". Again, probably just due to the much brighter picture, but I suspect that higher ANSI is partly responsible as well.

The convergence of my Epson was spot on - every bit as good as my JVC, and my JVC is just about perfect.
The gamma tool of the JVC is head and shoulders better than Epson's. I have not played with the Epson CMS, but JVC's is wonderful.
I have not tried FI yet.

My original plan was to buy the Epson for 3D only, but unless my opinion changes over time (and I am just as susceptible to the "new car" excitement as the next guy), I see no reason NOT to use the Epson for 2D as well and sell my JVC. Regardless, I am absolutely amazed at how much performance can be gotten from a $3K MSRP projector as compared to a $10k MSRP projector from just 2 years ago.

BTW, until I calibrate, I am simply using the stock 2.4 gamma in Cinema mode and have adjusted brightness and contrast in my video processor, not in the projector. Everything else is at default as far as I remember.
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post #1559 of 3271 Old 02-05-2012, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

My original plan was to buy the Epson for 3D only, but unless my opinion changes over time (and I am just as susceptible to the "new car" excitement as the next guy), I see no reason NOT to use the Epson for 2D as well and sell my JVC. Regardless, I am absolutely amazed at how much performance can be gotten from a $3K MSRP projector as compared to a $10k MSRP projector from just 2 years ago.

You never seemed completely happy with the JVC but I am still surprised at your conclusion!

Affable Nitwit
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post #1560 of 3271 Old 02-05-2012, 06:49 AM
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Bob,

The Epson emitter is just to the right of the lens, as you face the front of the projector. There's a jack on the back for an external emitter, and you need to change it to external in the menu. I'm going to try some neutral density filter material over the emitter on my 6010, because it floods my Niles IR receiver with so much signal that my other remotes don't work when the 3D emitter is on. Mounting an external emitter at the screen, you probably won't have that problem.

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