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post #1891 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

There are advanced options to reduce ghosting. I wonder if they would help or even work.

They'll be a PITA to test, for certain. You need to have a PC to which the glasses are connected via USB while adjusting the settings.

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post #1892 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 04:31 AM
 
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Can we acknowledge that there are new variables at work affecting the 3D quality?

Second is it wise to extrapolate that just because one implementation has side effects that ALL implementations are similarly bad?
Are there any exceptions? Have the technical root-cause been identified?

Third DLP (or any type of display) can ghost if the timing between the display and the glasses is not tightly synchronized.
The Mitsubishi 7800 offered the best hope for high performance 3D this year, but ended-up being a poster-child for many of the mistakes being discussed. Poor timing can also make the picture too dark. For 3D timing is everything in 3D, or at least a great deal!

I try to avoid introducing RF transmitters near my home theater as it can degrade the performance of nearby electronics.

Does DLP Link flash when both shutters are closed? Or does it command the glasses shutter to close? DLP-link flash timing must consist of defined sequence of high frequency pulses.
Flicker can be caused by the glasses incorrectly interpolating picture content as the timing pulses.

As Kraine has elaborated several times, the Acer 9500 offers the best 3D quality with no side effects or flicker. It's bright, uses DLP-link with no red bias in the blacks.
It contrast is satisfyingly top notch for 3D DLP (in fact its about the only one).

However as member Tom Frost and I have documented, the Acer looks distinctly different than typical digital projectors in that it reduces the contrast at the highest frequencies, making it look like top-notch analog.
Alternating single black and white lines become black and gray.
Is there any relationship between this effect, DLP-link timing, eliminating flicker and high contrast? I suspect so.
TI, Acer and their DLP design house aren't going to make a peep as this is proprietary information.
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post #1893 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

As Kraine has elaborated several times, the Acer 9500 offers the best 3D quality with no side effects or flicker. It's bright, uses DLP-link with no red bias in the blacks. It contrast is satisfyingly top notch for 3D DLP (in fact its about the only one). However as member Tom Frost and I have documented, the Acer looks distinctly different than typical digital projectors in that it reduces the contrast at the highest frequencies, making it look like top-notch analog. Alternating single black and white lines become black and gray. Is there any relationship between this effect, DLP-link timing, eliminating flicker and high contrast? I suspect so.

That is all very interesting. If Acer does not use red for sync pulses, it's probably using white. That might explain the phenomenon you described. Using white will also play merry hell with on/off and ANSI contrast, probably even more so than using red. Wish I could get my hands on the Acer 9500 but their representation in Finland is piss-poor at best.

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post #1894 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

That is all very interesting. If Acer does not use red for sync pulses, it's probably using white. That might explain the phenomenon you described. Using white will also play merry hell with on/off and ANSI contrast, probably even more so than using red. Wish I could get my hands on the Acer 9500 but their representation in Finland is piss-poor at best.

thanks for taking the time to post the info on the Optoma. Since Acer included the Nvidia support in the $500 projector, I don't see any reason why this would have been omitted from the 3x more expensive 9500. Maybe it was a licensing thing with Nvidia?

I would have paid extra for certain if it just had the 3 Pin VESA port.

I remember last year your comment on the DLP flash was about to cause a holy war amongst the 3D Vision fans vs. DLP link crowd. I just want a way to turn it off. I'll probably pick one up to test as soon as I hear more about the power issues some folks are having. hopefully it's just a bad batch.
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post #1895 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for taking the time to post the info on the Optoma. Since Acer included the Nvidia support in the $500 projector, I don't see any reason why this would have been omitted from the 3x more expensive 9500. Maybe it was a licensing thing with Nvidia?

I would have paid extra for certain if it just had the 3 Pin VESA port.

I remember last year your comment on the DLP flash was about to cause a holy war amongst the 3D Vision fans vs. DLP link crowd. I just want a way to turn it off. I'll probably pick one up to test as soon as I hear more about the power issues some folks are having. hopefully it's just a bad batch.

We need this discussion about DLP-Link vs. the other systems for the 3D glasses. I want as much info as possible. Let's face it many of us here are equipment junkies and love the technology almost as much as movies. The real issue to me is not whether DLP-Link has a negative impact on the image, but rather is it one I can discern and is it enough of a negative impact to be important to me. The test equipment may show problems, but if I can't tell the difference in contrast (on/off or inter-scene) then why would I care? We can show ghosting using patterns and that only matters to me if there's a distinct correlation between those patterns and what I'm seeing on the screen. The same goes for DLP-Link! I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I just want honest, rational opinions on the differences people are actually seeing -- if test equipment backs those observations up that's great, but to me that's secondary. I want to know what's going on on the ground. Outside of Pteittinen who else has even raised this issue? I've certainly read posts where members have complained about the poor contrast of DLP-Link glasses; however, on the Acer 9500 thread a DLP-Link glasses comparison has been made and apparently the Acer (and one other brand) were determined to be very good, while others suffered from poorer contrast etc. So, there appears to be substantial differences between the DLP-Link glasses from different manufacturers. We can only sort this out by making honest and reliable tests between different products and this forum and this thread is probably the best place anywhere on planet earth to do that. I'll be honest here -- I have a motive! I'm seriously thinking of purchasing the Acer 9500 or the BenQ W7000! I want to make the best choice and I'm happy to provide feedback here following my decision if I go that route. If you're interested in 3D then you're interested in helping to ascertain what works and what doesn't -- let's leave all our other biases somewhere else.

Just a note -- I now have my cheapo Acer H5360 in a small screening room on a 80" HP screen. It looks amazing -- bright, good blacks with Nvidia glasses, zero ghosting, zero flicker and a very clean, stable 3D image. What really still surprises me is that the 720p resolution in 3D looks so damn good -- much better than it should. No one would believe this projector costs around $500!
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post #1896 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I'm seriously thinking of purchasing the Acer 9500 or the BenQ W7000!

Didn't you already grab the Epson 5010 or 6010, or am I thinking of someone else?

One important thing to note about these DLP's is where you will be able to mount it will sometimes have a substantial effect on black levels and Native on/off. For instance, on the measurements I took for the Viewsonic Pro8200, at closest throw the highest peak was 1400:1, at farthest throw it peaked right at 2900:1 (blown out unrealistic unuseable mode, any watchable mode is nowhere near this high), but after calibration I could still get right at 2000:1 at farthest throw, but only 1000:1 to 1200:1 at closest throw for the same calibration.

I found similar losses in measuring a Mits hc4000, so expect a 30% to even a 50% loss in Native on/off depending on mounting position, and another 20% or more due to calibration. When dealing with lower On/Offs in the sub-3000 range, these differences can appear substantial even in normal viewing, hence if I move my DLP closer to the screen, the loss in On/Off is very visible even if I compensate the black and white levels down to match.


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post #1897 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Didn't you already grab the Epson 5010 or 6010, or am I thinking of someone else?

Yes. So? Is there something abnormal about members of this forum owning a stable of projectors? It's a lot more fun (for me at least) to spend under $10,000 on several projectors than to spend around $10,000 on one -- and you learn more.
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post #1898 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Yes. So? Is there something abnormal about members of this forum owning a stable of projectors? It's a lot more fun (for me at least) to spend under $10,000 on several projectors than to spend around $10,000 on one -- and you learn more.

I agree completely, I was just making sure I didn't remember incorrectly...
It is unexciting to only own one projector...

One thing about the Acer without the CMS that I will say is judging from Cine4's calibration numbers (I never looked at them carefully before), this is NOT going to be an issue with this projector at least at first unless it drifts severely. The fact it also lacks full gray-scale controls might be an issue, but probably not too big of a deal. The color gamut on the Acer was pretty darn accurate OOTB and the gamma was nearly perfect. DLP's also seem to NOT tend to drift as fast as LCOS and LCD, either that or it's just a coincidence on the DLP's vs. LCD's and LCOS that I've measured.

The main issue with the Acer is the shutdowns and other technical problems, it might be epidemic to the devices and require a hardware fix by Acer or a revision.


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post #1899 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Ibut the gamma has dropped tremendously and the lumens are dropping as well. The internal auto-gamma compensation algorithms for lumen loss seems to be invalid on the JVC.

The main issue with the Acer is the shutdowns and other technical problems, it might be epidemic to the devices and require a hardware fix by Acer or a revision.

have you been tracking the lamp on your RS45? I only have about 15 hours on the RS55 and will keep some notes on it. If the lamp was as cheap as the HW30's, I wouldn't care.
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post #1900 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 08:28 AM
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The HW30 can use RF glasses correct? Can it really affect performance?
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post #1901 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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How widespread are the reported issues on the 9500?

http://www.amazon.com/Acer-H9500BD-1...owViewpoints=1

2 guys with issues (flicker and the other sudden shutdown) and also read a few others on the 9500 thread having problems.
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post #1902 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 08:46 AM
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Hello, I changed my LG AF115 for JVC RS45, and I am very happy with the image.
I have a question: What standard is better in the JVC X30/RS45:

STANDARD COLOR SPACE, rising a little color
COLOR SPACE WIDE 1, getting a little color (and that saturate a little)

What color space so you have it you?
sorry for my english
regards
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post #1903 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

I try to avoid introducing RF transmitters near my home theater as it can degrade the performance of nearby electronics.

HiFiFun, you snuck the above comment in among many others in the same post. What are you basing your statement on?

The Bit Cauldron (aka MV, Optoma, etc) RF system is transmitted at 2.4Ghz and yet I have not noticed it negatively effect either 54G/wireless or our digital wireless house phones, and certainly have not noticed any issue with AV components which do not use that frequency at all. In fact, the removal of IR blasting (blinding my AV components) is such a great benefit it's the primary reason I use RF.

Mostly any issue would likely be noticed with components using the 2.4Ghz band. Using our kitchen microwave has a much greater and demonstrable negative effect on the 2.4Ghz wireless networking than anything else I've seen. This effect is negated with wireless-N networking (uses a different frequency band).

Coolplazma's HT Den project. Early project info. Needs update with final results.
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post #1904 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Drakul View Post

The HW30 can use RF glasses correct? Can it really affect performance?

Not natively, it only supports IR out of the box. You can use Monster Vision Max 3D with it.
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post #1905 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

How widespread are the reported issues on the 9500?

http://www.amazon.com/Acer-H9500BD-1...owViewpoints=1

2 guys with issues (flicker and the other sudden shutdown) and also read a few others on the 9500 thread having problems.

Looks like one reviewer spoke too soon. This is something I think we'd all like to avoid.

"UPDATE - 01/18/2012
Acer just replaced my H9500BD with another new one.It seems I had the bad luck with defective product, because it started annoying visible flickering at the top side of the screen.Another thing was that it was grooming/loud short noice/ from 2D to 3D switching.Also the was screen out/black/ when switching the accumotion. Now all the problems are gone and I'm very happy with this wonderful projector! Absolutely flawless ,crystal clear, ghost free , crosstalk free stable 3D !!! 2D is also great ! Bad for Epson 3010 / 5010 , this one kicked their a...s

UPDATE - 02.12.2012
Well ,it was to good to last long...
Now , I'm having the same pulsing flickering on the image .After trying everything as follow:

1. 3 different hdmi cables /including one with ferrite core filter/
2. 3 different power cords in 2 different rooms
3. power drain just in case.Of course I've also tried to reset the setting to its default one.
4. 2 different laptops, tablet and Playstation 3
5. With and without surge protector
6. Changed the resolutions/refresh rate on each of the outputing sources
7. I have invert the projected image. And as projectorpeople.com said" If the "flickering" remains locked in the same location, then the defect would probably be with your lamp because the lamp wouldn't be physically reversed
However, if the flickering changes sides, the problem is more likely a defect developing within the projectors optics.

It seems I had the bad luck with 2 defective units and now I'm looking for my next replacement/repair."

Life's tough enough. I don't need this.
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post #1906 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

They'll be a PITA to test, for certain. You need to have a PC to which the glasses are connected via USB while adjusting the settings.

Very true, I wonder if they have also tweaked the glasses for the specific projector or display since one must choose when doing the firmware update.

These are the changes in the latest firmware for the Xpand 104.

V1.5.3

- Philips 2k11 IR sync support added.

- Dual view functionality added.

- Shutter delay control enabled.

- PC application support enabled.

- Improved shutter timings for the Sony, Samsung and Panasonic IR sync.

- Improved charging indication.

- Minor bugs fixed.


Release date: February 13, 2012
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post #1907 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

HiFiFun, you snuck the above comment in among many others in the same post. What are you basing your statement on?

Mostly any issue would likely be noticed with components using the 2.4Ghz band. Using our kitchen microwave has a much greater and demonstrable negative effect on the 2.4Ghz wireless networking than anything else I've seen. This effect is negated with wireless-N networking (uses a different frequency band).

He is off-base sometimes, but here he has it somewhat right if he is talking about interference (although by degrade I don't know what he means), but it isn't real black and white. There are spectrum analyzers to help interpret RF interference to wireless signals, but it can definitely be an issue. Whenever I discuss something that is controversial or I know will be disputed (or I will probably be insulted for saying so, not by you but I mean in general in these forums), then I like to post STRAIGHT from the source as I have done many times.

Here ya go on RF interference direct from Cisco's Engineers;
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/coll...ite_Paper.html

I posted the TI document earlier showing the real causes of loss in Native On/Off with DLP, then I posted the Wiki and Apple docs showing all cameras and editing are now mostly digital, and now I will reference CISCO here...

Hopefully this will save me from the insults in advance


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post #1908 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

have you been tracking the lamp on your RS45? I only have about 15 hours on the RS55 and will keep some notes on it. If the lamp was as cheap as the HW30's, I wouldn't care.

Yah, 18% to 23% (loss in that range) at 200 hours. I was at 15% to 20% at 100-150 hours. Around 10% at 50 hours. It seems to have slowed down some.


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post #1909 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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the meager output of the RF on the bit cauldron transmitters is trivial. My house is filled with RF, several N routers, etc. There is no issue or any reported issues from anyone who's had interference caused by this particular device. it's the same tech that's built in the Optoma 3D DLP's.

If you guys are going to battle over tech, get back to the DLP Link vs. all others for some good discussion. There were many heated discussions in the 5360 thread regarding DLP Link vs the 3D vision.

I still would have preferred BenQ, Mitsubishi and Acer to go the way of the Optoma setup and either offer the RF support or like Optoma's 720P model, a 3 Pin VESA port.
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post #1910 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the meager output of the RF on the bit cauldron transmitters is trivial. My house is filled with RF, several N routers, etc. There is no issue or any reported issues from anyone who's had interference caused by this particular device. it's the same tech that's built in the Optoma 3D DLP's.

That is good information (real-world results), so it will probably just depend if there is other interference there or not, as interference can stack sort of. BTW, much less interference in a house generally as opposed to an apartment. In my experience with interference, it depends on a lot of things also like the construction of the building.

I agree though, nothing to worry about unless it happens to you then it is something you have to deal with after the fact. You can't really predict interference anyhow, it either happens or it doesn't. It's like trying to predict leaks in a roof before a hurricane strikes. My JVC emitter IR floods the room so much, and with my IR repeaters around different parts of the house, I am probably emitting IR throughout the neighborhood :P

People think their JVC's are freezing up, but really it's just my IR traveling through the clouds confusing their projectors.


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post #1911 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

That is good information (real-world results), so it will probably just depend if there is other interference there or not, as interference can stack sort of. BTW, much less interference in a house generally as opposed to an apartment. In my experience with interference, it depends on a lot of things also like the construction of the building.

I agree though, nothing to worry about unless it happens to you then it is something you have to deal with after the fact. You can't really predict interference anyhow, it either happens or it doesn't. It's like trying to predict leaks in a roof before a hurricane strikes. My JVC emitter IR floods the room so much, and with my IR repeaters around different parts of the house, I am probably emitting IR throughout the neighborhood :P

People think their JVC's are freezing up, but really it's just my IR traveling through the clouds confusing their projectors.

I'm sure the vendor of the RF transmitters provides the specifications. Or you can look up the FCC ID on the FCC web site. This should give you all the information you need to determine if there is going to be a wireless interoperability issue. My guess is that the RF transmitters are using a very low power 2.4 ghz radio in the 10mw output range. If that is the case, then it is very unlikely that they will interfere with other 2.4ghz devices such as wi-fi or cordless phones. Once you've identified the RF frequencies used by the transmitter, you can make adjustments to your wireless network to prevent frequency overlap. Another good alternative is to switch to the 5ghz band for wi-fi.

Rule of thumb is to keep as much energy off the frequency in question as possible. If two or more devices have to share a frequency, physically keep them away from each other and check their power output. Low power output devices don't bother higher output devices like wi-fi as much.
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post #1912 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I still would have preferred BenQ, Mitsubishi and Acer to go the way of the Optoma setup and either offer the RF support or like Optoma's 720P model, a 3 Pin VESA port.

Mitsu has a 5-pin port. An adapter might be possible, though I don't know if anyone has looked into it properly.

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
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post #1913 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by LVS View Post

Not natively, it only supports IR out of the box. You can use Monster Vision Max 3D with it.

Is Monster Vision the best option for the HW30?
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post #1914 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 11:36 AM
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Some company like Logitech will sell a device that takes the dlplink flash and converts it to RF, and vise a versa procuces a dlp flash for the glasses that need it.
But seriously what does dlp link 'red in the black' even mean? What should I be looking for?
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post #1915 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 11:56 AM
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If you can't easily locate the Sony IR Emitter in the front of your room firing back directly at the glasses, I would say it is the best if not the only option.

I experimented with the Sony glasses and the Monster 3D system and the Monster glasses work quite well and are more comfortable than the Sony glasses. With the IR Emitter in the front though the Sony glasses worked very well I just didn't find them very comfortable to wear.

I noticed the Monster IR Receiver would lose sync when the lights came on. When I located the IR emitter and receiver in the equipment cabinet the system did not lose sync when the lights came up.

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Originally Posted by Drakul View Post

Is Monster Vision the best option for the HW30?

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post #1916 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVS View Post

If you can't easily locate the Sony IR Emitter in the front of your room firing back directly at the glasses, I would say it is the best if not the only option.

I experimented with the Sony glasses and the Monster 3D system and the Monster glasses work quite well and are more comfortable than the Sony glasses. With the IR Emitter in the front though the Sony glasses worked very well I just didn't find them very comfortable to wear.

I noticed the Monster IR Receiver would lose sync when the lights came on. When I located the IR emitter and receiver in the equipment cabinet the system did not lose sync when the lights came up.

Thanks for the info, I'll have to play around with it once I order the Sony.
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post #1917 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 12:14 PM
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I'm sure the vendor of the RF transmitters provides the specifications. Or you can look up the FCC ID on the FCC web site. This should give you all the information you need to determine if there is going to be a wireless interoperability issue.

I agree if it's on the same band it is more likely to cause problems, but my point was you wouldn't know for sure until its in your own house to if it can interfere, also some devices don't necessarily produce clean output, they may vary unevenly, hop, or leak through other frequencies. Shown in myth # 14 and myth # 15. Anyhow, it's not a big concern most of the time.

The original issue or question was can it interfere, it probably can given the right set of conditions, will it, probably not.


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post #1918 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 12:55 PM
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Tommorow is d- day.

I am gonna choose between the sony h30 and the epson 5010.

I love very much 3d(i had the hc7800 wich was the best 3d i ever seen and i have seen alot of 3d projectors).

But i needed to sell it because of the rbe efffect in 2d...

Between those two projecors (epson or sony)wich one would you choose for 3d?
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post #1919 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 01:16 PM
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That is tough call. They are so close that I am not sure it matters. I think if you need more light output and don't want to run a cable and the IR Emitter to the front of the room then go with the Epson. The Epson has the Emitter built in and it is very strong the glasses are very nice.

I viewed both of them, and I ended up going with the Sony because I preferred its image in 2D with my Silverstar screen over the Epson but just barely. The only downside in my opinion going Sony is the damn emitter.

If you are a gamer, there is less lag with the Sony than the Epson.

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Originally Posted by john2910 View Post

Tommorow is d- day.

I am gonna choose between the sony h30 and the epson 5010.

I love very much 3d(i had the hc7800 wich was the best 3d i ever seen and i have seen alot of 3d projectors).

But i needed to sell it because of the rbe efffect in 2d...

Between those two projecors (epson or sony)wich one would you choose for 3d?

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post #1920 of 3270 Old 02-14-2012, 01:37 PM
 
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HiFiFun, you snuck the above comment in among many others in the same post. What are you basing your statement on?

This thread is so funny as certain few try to dominate it completely.
You were told I was ignorant then same replied to your question clearly directed to me. Has anybody seen the learning robot on the island in The Incredibles?
---

There are many aspects answers your question. Its actually an entire engineering field where electrical products are tested for Electro Magnetic Interference and Radio Frequency Interference susceptibility.
In fact the FCC requires projects to be EMI/RFI tested and certified.

Here are some design tips:
0) Simplify and reduce component count
1) Every cable is an antenna, so for home theater and networks always hard wire if possible. For a new house pay the bucks to wire every room with CAT 5E or 6
2) Buy a home far away from the large transmission tower farms. Don't live in RF saturated high-density housing.
3) The laminate foil in roofing material also acts as a nice RF shield.
4) Isolate the components from each other, both electrically and physically.
5) reduce component count to simplify system grounding. Wall warts are generally bad. Satellite and cable receivers are among the worst with lots of emissions.
6) I use htpc's supplemented with wirelesses notebooks and tablets. My "smart" electric meter now generates RF too! Note: stay away Google!

7) Individual components power conditioning needs to be tailored, especially the display. I like to isolate the displays with the Furman Power Factor Pro on its on leg from the wall socket.
8) Audio can really suffer as the RF (internal and external) easily interferes with analog semiconductors. As a result, my receiver has no digital to analog converter, as the HDMI PCM signal is converted to digital PWM. This drives the 120watt Class D power amplifier stages.

Of course there is a lot more but I want to wait a few days and see this in reprint first.
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