JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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it sounds like 2 sore spots from the previous Epson models was accounted for in the 5010 model - Convergence and white field uniformity.

Tom's report seemed positive on both accounts.

http://www.displaycalibrationonline...._epson5010.asp

i've been following the 7000 thread since it was released. The reports of lamp flicker are a little alarming, some folks are just having the projector replaced. Light leakage around the lens has also been reported.


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Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

Does anyone know if zombie put the HW30 in game mode when testing for input lag? i notice a large difference when i put it into game mode with all processing disabled, and the lag seems similar or better than my Samsung C7000.

thanks for the heads up! I did not try this mode. I'll try it tonight and update the first page if the lag time is further reduce.
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

@Epson vs. JVC vs. Sony vs. DLP


IMHO, LCD has the most trouble with distant scenery shots, sunsets, water, and stuff like that, sometimes it will look a bit flat, not sure why. I'm not saying this same weakness applies to the Epson 5010, I don't know.

That's exactly what he said about the Epson!
He couldn't believe how sharp or bright these JVCs are!
After I told him it was in normal lamp with the aperture at -15 and brightness -6. He was even more impressed! He said the bright scenes actually made his eyes hurt! lol
From his viewing he didn't feel contrast levels could really get much better, compared to the Sony Vw95 or the Epson 61000 which he's also viewed.
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:22 AM
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Please post back letting us know when you updated the info. VERY interested in the re-test!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

it sounds like 2 sore spots from the previous Epson models was accounted for in the 5010 model - Convergence and white field uniformity.

Tom's report seemed positive on both accounts.

http://www.displaycalibrationonline...._epson5010.asp

i've been following the 7000 thread since it was released. The reports of lamp flicker are a little alarming, some folks are just having the projector replaced. Light leakage around the lens has also been reported.




thanks for the heads up! I did not try this mode. I'll try it tonight and update the first page if the lag time is further reduce.


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Old 12-28-2011, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

Just had a member of the forum over last night viewing the RS45 for 5 hours.
He's viewed both the Sony 95 and the Epson 6010. From his comments, the 6010 isn't that great and he wasn't wowed by it at all.

On the other hand the Sony VW95 looked impressive! But after seeing my unit. He said there was no need to waste my time. As the image quality for 2D was so close, I probably wouldn't find it a true upgrade for 2D movies.

There's a big difference between "viewing" a projector and owning a projector. When viewing a projector someone else has set it up and you're completely dependent and how that was done. This is completely hit and miss. When you own a projector you have control as to how it is set up, the screen and content. I trust Conan48's comments -- he's owned lots of the top projectors in this price range (or at the top of it). I may not buy an Epson but I'll bet its one hell of a unit compared to just about anything discussed in this particular section of the forum. And then of course, there's 3D and we now know how some of the big names fare with that!
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

Please post back letting us know when you updated the info. VERY interested in the re-test!!!

no problem, I'll definitely do it tonight. It's a very easy/ quick test to run. I have the HTPC setup with VGA out to a high quality CRT and the HDMI running to the projector. It won't take but 10 minutes to setup and find the results in 'gaming' mode on the HW30.

thanks to whitetrash66 for the heads up!
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

There's a big difference between "viewing" a projector and owning a projector. When viewing a projector someone else has set it up and you're completely dependent and how that was done. This is completely hit and miss. When you own a projector you have control as to how it is set up, the screen and content. I trust Conan48's comments -- he's owned lots of the top projectors in this price range (or at the top of it). I may not buy an Epson but I'll bet its one hell of a unit compared to just about anything discussed in this particular section of the forum. And then of course, there's 3D and we now know how some of the big names fare with that!

Relax Deja, enjoy the Epson if you so choose. I agree, it is tough to compare demo wise any of this stuff.
We all see differently as well.Best to see it for yourself than trust anyone as gospel. What some may find fantastic will look like poop to others. lol

I'm not just an end user, I've also installed units for others. So I'm not going on blind faith.
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:36 AM
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Yup, there is even a big difference between owning a projector for 10 hours or owning one for 40+ hours, but we all can only do what we can do.

Personally I think the Epsons were really good at certain types of dark scenes (I owned them and set one up for another person), but still had trouble with maximizing contrast in super dark movies like Harry Potter (I've watched Harry Potters on the 8700ub and the JVC RS-45 and the Sony vw70, the Sanyo z4000, the Mits hc4000, ok I'll stop there). Some of these I had them side-by-side split-screen while watching, as well as I did A/B and back to back viewing.

There aren't a whole lot of movies shot as darkly as Harry Potter with the same sophistication in camera work (I'm sure there are a few, just not many). As tired as I am of Harry Potter, some of the camera work was amazing in the dark shots. LOTR also has some nicely shot dark scenes, but not nearly as many. The newer Star Wars has some sophisticated lighting. I've seen some animated films with some really sophisticated lighting in dark scenes too.


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Old 12-28-2011, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Yup, there is even a big difference between owning a projector for 10 hours or owning one for 40+ hours, but we all can only do what we can do.

Personally I think the Epsons were really good at certain types of dark scenes (I owned them and set one up for another person), but still had trouble with maximizing contrast in super dark movies like Harry Potter (I've watched Harry Potters on the 8700ub and the JVC RS-45 and the Sony vw70, the Sanyo z4000, the Mits hc4000, ok I'll stop there). Some of these I had them side-by-side split-screen while watching, as well as I did A/B and back to back viewing.

There aren't a whole lot of movies shot as darkly as Harry Potter with the same sophistication in camera work (I'm sure there are a few, just not many). As tired as I am of Harry Potter, some of the camera work was amazing in the dark shots. LOTR also has some nicely shot dark scenes, but not nearly as many. The newer Star Wars has some sophisticated lighting. I've seen some animated films with some really sophisticated lighting in dark scenes too.

A lot of camera men fail in dark lighting, they just don't know how to capture the scene right (Fright Night anyone?), so in that sense the bit of extra contrast you get with the JVC and Sony over another projector that also has great blacks aren't always applicable in every movie, but when the advantages are applicable it is worth it IMHO.

He and I both came to the same conclusion. There's no substitute for native contrast when you hit a certain level. Once you lock in on those differences, there's no going back.
This member is VERY acute, he doesn't just go in and sit down to watch a movie. He watches the image from all angles.
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:48 AM
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I agree. The Holy grail of PJs is one that can achieve DEEP BLACKS, but also achieve high contrast in the dark scenes (in a way that the dark background remains deep black, while the brighter foreground objects are well lit bright and visible, with a punchy look). most modern TVs can achieve this without much issue, and this is where I have always felt projectors have been lacking.

My Sanyo Z2000 suffers in dark scenes because the black is NOT all that deep, and the contrast cannot be achieved either. It has the option to trick it by using dynamic gamma, and it really helps tremendously, but the colors do suffer when you enable that feature. it makes dark movies watchable though.

Im looking forward to my next projector, Im thinking the HW30 may be a nice upgrade.

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Old 12-28-2011, 08:54 AM
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Oh yah, I've had quite a bit of experience with Sanyo's as well, owned a few. Sanyo's advantage was usually really good convergence and a tighter tolerance in that price range. Sanyo's also tended to do really well in mixed scene lighting, sort of like DLP's.

The hw30 would make a great upgrade from the Sanyo, you will get a nice increase in black levels, a smoother image, and not really any loss in punchiness. Sanyo's main issue was always the way they calibrated, you had to be really intense on making sure you preserved the native contrast while doing the calibration, you can really blow the native contrast to bits just by changing a few settings, best to measure contrast when calibrating a Sanyo.


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Old 12-28-2011, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

I agree. The Holy grail of PJs is one that can achieve DEEP BLACKS, but also achieve high contrast in the dark scenes (in a way that the dark background remains deep black, while the brighter foreground objects are well lit bright and visible, with a punchy look). most modern TVs can achieve this without much issue, and this is where I have always felt projectors have been lacking.

My Sanyo Z2000 suffers in dark scenes because the black is NOT all that deep, and the contrast cannot be achieved either. It has the option to trick it by using dynamic gamma, and it really helps tremendously, but the colors do suffer when you enable that feature. it makes dark movies watchable though.

Im looking forward to my next projector, Im thinking the HW30 may be a nice upgrade.

Well you're off to a great start. I'm not a JVC fan boy. But in this price range, there's not a single projector than can match the RS45 in those two areas..not one. There I said it. lol

The only projectors my visitor mentioned he's considering are the JVC RS45, Sony VW95 or the Epson 61000 not 6010. That should tell you something.
In the areas of blacks and contrast it rubs shoulders with the big boys.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:05 AM
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I would have purchased the RS45 already if it weren't for the relatively high lag numbers Ive seen. My Sanyo does 18ms according to my tests. I know that would be hard to match, I can live with anything below 50ms for gaming. Dual setup is not an option for me.

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Old 12-28-2011, 09:08 AM
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I'll post some more impressions later tonight as I was focusing on mostly 3D. I'm not saying the Epson is better then the JVC and no while the blacks are VERY good, they don't compare for very dark movies like Harry Potter DH P2. I really gotta spend a bit more time to make any more evaluations.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

The Epson is very nice For anyone on a budget. You can't go wrong. This thing is amazing. Again, best bang for the buck...

I've heard very good things about the Epson from a friend. Said black level was very good and much better than a VW30 he compared it too. Said 3D was very good too. Said that he found the auto iris very noisy and distracting though. Not sure if that is the case as I have never seen one.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

I would have purchased the RS45 already if it weren't for the relatively high lag numbers Ive seen. My Sanyo does 18ms according to my tests. I know that would be hard to match, I can live with anything below 50ms for gaming. Dual setup is not an option for me.

The HW30 was the lowest of the lag time tests even in standard mode.. who knows, we might find a surprise later tonight in gaming mode.

I went back and looked at the HW30 last night with a 0 IRE screen, the black level uniformity is exceptional on my particular projector. Several have noticed the bright corners on their JVC's (even some of the RS55/X70 owners) and this bothers me, especially on a bright screen like my 2.8HP. I saw the bright corners several times in fade to blacks on this particular RS45. I don't know what JVC did to change this.

My RS55 is due to to arrive tomorrow, I hope I don't see this. I am only using this projector for my critical 2D BD, mainly dark sci-fi viewing since I don't know yet if the lamp issues have been resolved (no one has 300+ hours yet).

The HW30 is still my favorite all around projector since it does 3D so much better imo than the RS45. Much less ghosting, less flicker and FI in 3D is easy on the eyes. Plus the price of the lamp is still unbelievable. The black floor is darker on the JVC, but it's not a day/night difference compared to the DLP. In real content, the DI is doing a killer job and mixed contrast scenes like the 'subway fight' in the Matrix and the opening scene of 'Underworld Evolution' are not disappointing after owning the RS40, RS50 and demoing the RS45 for 2 days.

it's a shame we can't have 1 projector with the best qualities of each of these particular models. I have to see the 5010 now.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

...it's a shame we can't have 1 projector with the best qualities of each of these particular models. I have to see the 5010 now.

Have you seen the VW95 yet? I think you said you have an RS55 coming and its in the same price range (or cheaper if you are over seas, apparently).
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:47 AM
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Zombie, may have missed it, but have you given your overall impressions of the W7000 for 2D and 3D? I haven't ruled this projector out yet, like so many others.

O.K. I see you've added your final thoughts about all three projectors. I guess my question is -- are you keeping the W7000?
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Have you seen the VW95 yet? I think you said you have an RS55 coming and its in the same price range (or cheaper if you are over seas, apparently).

I haven't seen the VW95 yet (but will soon). I have been closely following the feedback from all the critical members on the forum, and I realize it's likely the best combo of 2D and 3D going right now.

If I didn't already own the HW30, I would have grabbed the VW95 without a second thought given all the high critical praise so far. The reason I have to see the RS55 in person is because of the complaints I had against the RS50 last year. The PQ was excellent, but the gamma controls, lack of lumens, lamp dimming was the bugger. I understand the brightness is top shelf and the gamma controls have been fixed.

The main reason I want to see it is the E-shift. I sit 1.25 SW away from my 142" 16:9 screen which is quite large by comparison to the average 100-110" screen. Other members with a critical eye have all praised the E-shift for the smoothness and apparent increase in PQ as a result.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:03 AM
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O.K. I got a big surprise -- no DI on the Sony for 3D! The same goes for the VW95? What are these companies thinking? Maybe only Panasonic got this right.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:52 PM
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Zombie

If this was black on the jvc...



Would the benQ look like this or closer to the jvc?

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Old 12-28-2011, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Zombie

If this was black on the jvc...


Would the benQ look like this or closer to the jvc?

I am looking at this on a D65 / Gamma corrected monitor. I would say even lighter than the 2nd image without the use of the ND2 filter.

I've read your reviews and sharp attention to detail, I can't see this projector being something that would interest you, especially in comparison to the VW95.

What features are you looking for beyond the capabilities of the VW95? It sounds like you like DLP overall.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


I am looking at this on a D65 / Gamma corrected monitor. I would say even lighter than the 2nd image without the use of the ND2 filter.

I've read your reviews and sharp attention to detail, I can't see this projector being something that would interest you, especially in comparison to the VW95.

What features are you looking for beyond the capabilities of the VW95? It sounds like you like DLP overall.

I do really like DLP.

I had the Marantz vp-11s2 and the Samsung sp-a900b before the Sony and would say both provide a much superior image fidelity over the Sony.

But neither would be bright enough for my ridiculous sized screen.

I was hoping a benQ with its over 1000 lumen output would be a compromise till I can afford a 3 chip sim2... Lol.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

I do really like DLP.

I had the Marantz vp-11s2 and the Samsung sp-a900b before the Sony and would say both provide a much superior image fidelity over the Sony.

But neither would be bright enough for my ridiculous sized screen.

I was hoping a benQ with its over 1000 lumen output would be a compromise till I can get a 3 chip sim2... Lol.

The JVC RS55 @ D65 should be close to that output vs the VW95 based on Kraine's recent review.

Contrast / Brightness: (VW95)

Calibrated high lamp mode: 770 lumens
Calibrated low lamp mode: 495 lumens

Contrast / Brightness (X70)

High lamp mode calibrated iris open: 1051 lumens
Low lamp mode calibrated iris open: 666 lumens

The E-shift could also add an interesting dynamic to the overall IQ. I'll let you know what I think of it over the weekend once I get it calibrated.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

BenQ W7000 - The BenQ has a sharp, vibrant image. it's main strength is 3D and an flexible lens shift for HP owners. There is also an 1500+ lumen torch mode that looked pretty good with ambient light on the HP. I would watch formula 1 racing with this mode. The contrast is typical of other DLP's in this price range, but not at the same level as the JVC / Sony.

Things I'd like to see changed:
  • better contrast, or at least control of the iris once I figure out how to get into the service menu.
  • Faster sync changes between 2D and 3D, they can take a good 45 seconds to switch sometimes.
  • 3 pin VESA port for 'bring your own' emitter and 3D glasses. I'd like to have seen an option for something other than DLP link glasses.

Thank you for this thread. I have been considering the BenQ as my next projector, but I did notice the lack of a VESA port.

Is there any way you know of to use an external emittter with this pj? I didn't see an option to disable DLP link in the manual. If 3d mode is disabled, will the projector still accept a 120hz signal from a converter like the 3d-VIP, and will this eliminate the dlp flash?

I posed these questions to BenQ, but I received no reply.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:05 PM
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Thanks for all the testing zombie!

I notice you have an HMZ-T1....I have not seen your comments in the other thread (sorry, maybe I missed them)....would you care to give us your basic thoughts on it compared to these projectors, please?
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for this thread. I have been considering the BenQ as my next projector, but I did notice the lack of a VESA port.

Is there any way you know of to use an external emittter with this pj? I didn't see an option to disable DLP link in the manual. If 3d mode is disabled, will the projector still accept a 120hz signal from a converter like the 3d-VIP, and will this eliminate the dlp flash?

I posed these questions to BenQ, but I received no reply.

No problem, we had a good time comparing them all side by side. I wish I had better news regarding the 3D VESA port, as this is my #1 wish on all 3D projectors. I am a big fan of the MV3D glasses and while they don't connect directly to the Sony projectors (well, you can with a custom made cable) they work great with the Sony IR Emitter.

My Acer 5360 can be used with DLP Link or Nvidia 3D vision setup. I didn't get a chance to try this with the W7000. If Kraine gets a hold of a W7000, I'll ask him to give it a shot with a 120hz signal.

I would like to see BenQ have a mode where it definitely supports the 3D vision setup, as this means the DLP flash could be turned off.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:21 PM
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No problem, we had a good time comparing them all side by side. I wish I had better news regarding the 3D VESA port, as this is my #1 wish on all 3D projectors. I am a big fan of the MV3D glasses and while they don't connect directly to the Sony projectors (well, you can with a custom made cable) they work great with the Sony IR Emitter.

My Acer 5360 can be used with DLP Link or Nvidia 3D vision setup. I didn't get a chance to try this with the W7000. If Kraine gets a hold of a W7000, I'll ask him to give it a shot with a 120hz signal.

I would like to see BenQ have a mode where it definitely supports the 3D vision setup, as this means the DLP flash could be turned off.

Could you comment on the quality of the video (especially 3D) wrt using the DLPLink glasses vs the nVidia kit? I have a friend who just got the 5360, and I wasn't impressed with the contrast at all (although the 3D was ghost free). Deja Vu says that may be simply because his DLPLink glasses are killing the contrast. When you were watching 3D on the Acer during the shootout, were you using the nVidia kit?

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Old 12-28-2011, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the testing zombie!

I notice you have an HMZ-T1....I have not seen your comments in the other thread (sorry, maybe I missed them)....would you care to give us your basic thoughts on it compared to these projectors, please?

Hi, I can give you brief summary here.

pros:
  • 3D is nice overall, there is no ghosting, flicker, etc.
  • Colors are nice and and natural on the OLED panels

cons:
  • 3D depth/pop outs, imo, does not rival any of the 3D front projectors i've seen. It's more subtle and it takes a movie with a lot depth to really get the feel for it.
  • Pixel structure is visible in much of the content
  • lenses on the HMZ create a 'Halo' effect that can be seen with your side vision. The brain kind of blocks it out, but it's still distraction.
  • #1 con - comfort.. or lack of comfort I should say. These are much heavier than I thought they were going to be. I've tried for days to find the right fit, but no luck. I know all kinds of creative folks are modifying them with bicycle helmets, counter weights, etc. I don't even like heavy 3D glasses (which is why the MV3D's are my favorite) let alone something this heavy and bulky attached to my head.

It's a shame, I really had plans for these (quick 30 minute TV shows, PC 3D gaming) but there is no way I can get used to this headset in it's current form. I am trying to get Sony to take them back, otherwise they are going on Ebay this weekend.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:37 PM
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Thanks Zombie...I also was not happy with comfort, the other cons you mentioned were livable IMO....but I just sold mine as well. Just curous as I've never had the pleasure of viewing one of these nice projectors.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Could you comment on the quality of the video (especially 3D) wrt using the DLPLink glasses vs the nVidia kit? I have a friend who just got the 5360, and I wasn't impressed with the contrast at all (although the 3D was ghost free). Deja Vu says that may be simply because his DLPLink glasses are killing the contrast. When you were watching 3D on the Acer during the shootout, were you using the nVidia kit?

Joseph - I didn't get a chance to test the DLP link glasses on the Acer 5360 vs. the Nvidia 3D vision.

One thing I can tell you, the W7000 had a noticeable red cast to the black floor when the glasses were off. They weren't really noticeable with the glasses on, but wondering if this what was also going on with the Acer in DLP Link mode.

I could try to force the Acer into DLP link mode to see if the red cast shows up (I am not sure if the Acer uses a white flash or a red flash though)

We should try to get Petri to join in on the conversation, he knows plenty about DLP Link.
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