JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 73 - AVS Forum
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post #2161 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 02:04 PM
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Since ghosting on lcd based pj's (lcos included) seems to depend a lot on temperature, what if the pj was designed to keep the chip at a certain temperature to reduce/eliminate ghosting? Would that also result in a shorter lifespan?

Also do you think that the jvc lcos design will ever be ghost-free? Or is there something in its fundamental design that will always be prone to ghosting?
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post #2162 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Inami View Post

I've been reading tons of these posts on the different projectors throughout this last week and I have a theory to offer. I don't really have any good technical proof, but the deal with ghosting could have to do with pixel decay. I've read posts that indicate the Sony wv95es will operate at 240Hz (or 192Hz) for 3D. Since the refresh rate is so high, it will write black/blank frames in between the atual 3D frames for left and right. This, essentially, removes all voltage from each pixel.

The JVC, on the other hand, doesn't have time to write this "blank" frame, since it's operating at 120Hz (or 96Hz). The only thing it can do is just change the voltage for each pixel as the left/right frames occur. The speed of decay or voltage increase may not be fast enough to mask the echo of left/right 3D images. If this theory is correct, one option could be to have the JVC firmware overcompensate the voltage change for each pixel based on the contrast between the left/right frames (reducing the voltage more than necessary or increasing more than necessary to compensate for decay). However, this could definitely lead to problems with color accuracy.

I have no scientific proof of this. Just some ideas that I'm throwing out here. If decay is the culprite, then I'm wondering if this is something that can be corrected by firmware, or even through Lumagen's color processing.... Thoughts?

Interesting concept. Anyone know what the refresh rate is for the 5010?

Could it also have something to do with the difference in the decay between lcd and LCOS?
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post #2163 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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william - that is interesting the info you guys came up with. it sounds like an engineering issue if the panels are that sensitive to the temp changes. Maybe they can update the software to control the fan speed to keep the panels cooking.

The JVC's last year were doing something similar, but it was more consistent with a certain warm up time then ghosting would diminish. Once the lamp aged, some has major ghosting that wouldn't go away until a new lamp was installed. One of the theories was panel temp / lumen output.

Once we have laser driven projectors with JVC native contrast and 3D DLP performance we can stop posting in the forums.
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post #2164 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Maybe Toe will see this post and comment since he too was concerned about RBE with DLP. For some reason RBE in 3D on a DLP projector is much, much less apparent and this has been noted by RBE sensitive people. I'll try and find the link -- now that's for 3D and obviously not 2D.

WilliamG -- I hear the Panasonic owners are snuggling up to their projectors to keep them warm for 3D. It's a love-in! Thanks, but no thanks -- I'm not wrapping my projector in towels or blankets to keep it warm through the winter. So, we're back to relatively "dim" 3D to keep ghosting at bay?


Here's the link about DLP, RBE and 3D. See the end of the 2nd paragraph under Picture Performance -- 3D. Here's the quote.

"Another interesting side effect of watching 3D was that there never seemed to be any rainbows, our rainbow guinea pig didn't report any when watching 3D material."

http://www.avforums.com/review/Optom...or-Review.html


Hi...........

You remember well. I was concerned about RBE as far as 3d with DLP, BUT I have yet to see any in all the times I have seen the Acer at my friends place which I find interesting since I am prone to RBE in 2d Why is RBE not nearly as much of an issue for people as far as 3d goes?

I am nervous to watch HUGO on the RS45 as far as ghosting goes from what you guys are saying! This might be the straw that sends the RS45 flying out the window..................

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #2165 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 04:13 PM
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I took Joe's advice and watched those scenes again with the glasses set to medium brightness and said goodbye to the little ghosting I was seeing. I liked the higher brightness, but it is still respectively bright and the ghosting is for all intents and purposes history (good riddance).
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post #2166 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Hi...........

You remember well. I was concerned about RBE as far as 3d with DLP, BUT I have yet to see any in all the times I have seen the Acer at my friends place which I find interesting since I am prone to RBE in 2d Why is RBE not nearly as much of an issue for people as far as 3d goes?

I am nervous to watch HUGO on the RS45 as far as ghosting goes from what you guys are saying! This might be the straw that sends the RS45 flying out the window..................

Honestly, I'm not sure what bothered me more with the RS45, - the crosstalk OR the flickering from the glasses. Certainly a huge difference between it and the 5010/6010/PT-AE7000.

I dream of the 2D contrast of the RS45, the 2D motion of the PT-AE7000U, the 2D film-like image from the PT-AE7000U, the 3D image from the 5010/6010, the brightness from the 5010/6010, the input lag from the HW30/PT-AE7000U, the bulb life of the PT-AE7000U, the ECO lamp fan noise of the RS45, and the NORMAL lamp fan noise of the PT-AE7000U.


Then we'd be rocking. Can someone Frankenbuild me that projector, please?
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post #2167 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

Honestly, I'm not sure what bothered me more with the RS45, - the crosstalk OR the flickering from the glasses. Certainly a huge difference between it and the 5010/6010/PT-AE7000.

I dream of the 2D contrast of the RS45, the 2D motion of the PT-AE7000U, the 2D film-like image from the PT-AE7000U, the 3D image from the 5010/6010, the brightness from the 5010/6010, the input lag from the HW30/PT-AE7000U, the bulb life of the PT-AE7000U, the ECO lamp fan noise of the RS45, and the NORMAL lamp fan noise of the PT-AE7000U.


Then we'd be rocking. Can someone Frankenbuild me that projector, please?

lol that would be awsome
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post #2168 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

Honestly, I'm not sure what bothered me more with the RS45, - the crosstalk OR the flickering from the glasses. Certainly a huge difference between it and the 5010/6010/PT-AE7000.

I dream of the 2D contrast of the RS45, the 2D motion of the PT-AE7000U, the 2D film-like image from the PT-AE7000U, the 3D image from the 5010/6010, the brightness from the 5010/6010, the input lag from the HW30/PT-AE7000U, the bulb life of the PT-AE7000U, the ECO lamp fan noise of the RS45, and the NORMAL lamp fan noise of the PT-AE7000U.


Then we'd be rocking. Can someone Frankenbuild me that projector, please?

Even though the Epson sounds excellent as far as ghosting, we need to throw DLP lack of ghosting into that mix.......once we have that projector, I will not have to visit this video forum as much.

I agree with you on the ghosting/flicker of the JVC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I took Joe's advice and watched those scenes again with the glasses set to medium brightness and said goodbye to the little ghosting I was seeing. I liked the higher brightness, but it is still respectively bright and the ghosting is for all intents and purposes is history (good riddance).

Really cool to have those options which seem to really help with the ghosting. I hope HUGO is at least watchable on my 45.......sounds like it might be one of the torture test discs (?).

Have you guys tried out any console 3d gaming on the Epson? I have totally given up on the 45 from that angle as the ghosting just kills the experience. I have a couple of the God of War games that I am playing right now, both of which are in 3d and look really cool, BUT the ghosting is too much. Cant wait to have a projector that will do 3d gaming justice as well as blu ray 3d.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #2169 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 07:03 PM
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This is a public service message to remind everyone that the HW30 is an awesome projector for Blu-rays and HDTV. But it's also most excellent for gaming.

Random picture from gaming on HW30 to show excitement.


(Bulletstorm on Xbox 360 as displayed by HW30)

... Altan

Side note: I don't think any projector in this class as the same amount of grayscale calibration and gamma adjustment now that ID3 has been shown to work.
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post #2170 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Even though the Epson sounds excellent as far as ghosting, we need to throw DLP lack of ghosting into that mix.......once we have that projector, I will not have to visit this video forum as much.

I agree with you on the ghosting/flicker of the JVC



Really cool to have those options which seem to really help with the ghosting. I hope HUGO is at least watchable on my 45.......sounds like it might be one of the torture test discs (?).

Have you guys tried out any console 3d gaming on the Epson? I have totally given up on the 45 from that angle as the ghosting just kills the experience. I have a couple of the God of War games that I am playing right now, both of which are in 3d and look really cool, BUT the ghosting is too much. Cant wait to have a projector that will do 3d gaming justice as well as blu ray 3d.

I don't game anymore, but the Epson excels at side by side 3D at 60i (120hz/sec total). It doesn't look much different than 24p Blu-ray 3D (in terms of ghosting, not resolution). I have Dish, so I don't have any DirecTV channels to test, but if I understand correctly they are 1920x1080 60i side by side, pretty much the same as the SbS camcorder footage I've tested. Console games at 120hz should look good, too. There must be some Epson gamers out there to confirm or dispute that.

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post #2171 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I don't game anymore, but the Epson excels at side by side 3D at 60i (120hz/sec total). It doesn't look much different than 24p Blu-ray 3D (in terms of ghosting, not resolution). I have Dish, so I don't have any DirecTV channels to test, but if I understand correctly they are 1920x1080 60i side by side, pretty much the same as the SbS camcorder footage I've tested. Console games at 120hz should look good, too. There must be some Epson gamers out there to confirm or dispute that.

Thanks Joseph and that is great to hear. Curious to see the Epson at some point I hope.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #2172 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 09:10 PM
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So DLP, that old tech, is still the best ghost free 3D technology today?
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post #2173 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

So DLP, that old tech, is still the best ghost free 3D technology today?

DLP switches pixels from one state to another faster than LCD, LCoS or plasma, so it's possible for it to attain almost completely ghost free 3D. If there's ghosting with a DLP display, it's probably caused by the glasses not blocking enough light (and/or faulty shutter timing).

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post #2174 of 3270 Old 02-25-2012, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I don't game anymore, but the Epson excels at side by side 3D at 60i (120hz/sec total). It doesn't look much different than 24p Blu-ray 3D (in terms of ghosting, not resolution). I have Dish, so I don't have any DirecTV channels to test, but if I understand correctly they are 1920x1080 60i side by side, pretty much the same as the SbS camcorder footage I've tested. Console games at 120hz should look good, too. There must be some Epson gamers out there to confirm or dispute that.

DirecTV 3D SbS format is in 3 resolution/refresh rates: live broadcast 720p/60 or 1080i/60, and movies ondemand 1080p/24.

SbS on the Epson ghosts more than BD 3D, then the HW30 does a bit more, and the JVCs (any model) even more.

Since SbS is only half horizontal resolution, no way that will ever closely match BD 3D.

Coolplazma's HT Den project. Early project info. Needs update with final results.
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post #2175 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by coolplazma View Post

DV, the Epson brightness with glasses set to Medium is still very acceptable brightness based on the metering done in this thread. Not sure it's really valid to go out of the norm to find a mode that performs less than optimal just to justify a point about a .1% issue. That seems similar to choosing a bad gamma and then blaming the projector for crushing black or clipping white.

I feel that any potential owners should have full disclosure. Epson's 3D is being sold on its brightness and if you must always use less brightness, than what it is capable of, to avoid ghosting then you lose that advantage. The good news is that there's lots of 3D material you can play that doesn't ghost when the Epson is cranked to maximize lumens, but potential owners should be aware of the limitations, IMO.
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post #2176 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

So DLP, that old tech, is still the best ghost free 3D technology today?

I would agree as far as ghosting goes and ghosting is a major 3D concern. But, and it is a big but -- will DLP have the same black levels, have the lumens, lamp life etc. of other technologies. It probably can, but then again most present models don't. The W7000 may be a good bet, but lamp life and black levels may not match the HW30 or 5010, both of which have very little ghosting, so the trade off may attract some potential purchasers. The Acer H9500 has a number of issues and I've heard it is no brighter than the Acer H5360, which I have. Projectors like the 5010/6010 are much brighter in 3D and that's a big advantage on larger screens over 110". I would say that at the moment DLP has the potential to be the best for 3D. Next year it may be something else. Things are definitely evolving in the 3D world for the better and DLP will have to as well if it wants to compete.
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post #2177 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 08:19 AM
 
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As the litle girl said before she ran off with the elephant, it's the mirrors. And the mirrors are unfortunately an unchanging constant. They are trucking out the same set of mirrors every year and expecting them to compete with fresh new athletes (chips). Its amazing how companies like Sim2 can make peripheral changes and continue to eek out substantial levels of improvements as in their new Nero etc projectors and fortunately DLP has certain advantages over reflectrive and transmissive LCD technology just as those technologies have over DLP.
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post #2178 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 08:46 AM
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Hello i watched tintin in 3d on the epson and it was beautyful on the epson.

Only the subtitles where ghosting alot.

Did more people have this problem?
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post #2179 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 01:02 PM
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I'm going to upgrade my old Optoma dlp projector and was trying to decide between the JVC RS45 and the Epson 6010 (TW9000 here in UK). The local dealer set up the projectors side by side and fed them the same signal (using hdmi splitter) from Sony BD player. Although I was leaning towards JVC initially, the demo changed my mind. (I used latest Star Trek for comparison because it has both dark scenes and bright lights).

My question is how would I check the quality of the new projector WRT panel alignment/convergence? I was thinking of projecting pure red, green, blue then white screens and trying to spot any variation across the screen. Is there a better way?

Ion
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post #2180 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 01:15 PM
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Here's a review of the JVC -- reviewer gave it a reference score for 3D (??). This is at odds with what many here are reporting and what Jason's photos reveal.

http://www.avforums.com/review/JVC-X...or-Review.html
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post #2181 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesion View Post

I'm going to upgrade my old Optoma dlp projector and was trying to decide between the JVC RS45 and the Epson 6010 (TW9000 here in UK). The local dealer set up the projectors side by side and fed them the same signal (using hdmi splitter) from Sony BD player. Although I was leaning towards JVC initially, the demo changed my mind. (I used latest Star Trek for comparison because it has both dark scenes and bright lights).

My question is how would I check the quality of the new projector WRT panel alignment/convergence? I was thinking of projecting pure red, green, blue then white screens and trying to spot any variation across the screen. Is there a better way?

Ion

you can burn a copy of the AVS calibration disk

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

this has a single pixel test pattern which is one of the ultimate convergence tests to run on a projector.

The Epson is a nice all ready 2D/3D projector. the 3D is likely to be preferred on the Epson vs. the JVC, whereas if you are a dark movie / sci-fi fan, the JVC has the advantage of a better black floor. Click on the link in my signature if you want to see some comparisons between these models.
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post #2182 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesion View Post

My question is how would I check the quality of the new projector WRT panel alignment/convergence? I was thinking of projecting pure red, green, blue then white screens and trying to spot any variation across the screen. Is there a better way?

Ion

I think some of these projectors have test patterns for convergence issues. The Epson 5010/6010 does and it allows you to correct for poor convergence of the panels. With the European model of the Epson you have to go into the service menu to get at the controls to adjust convergence (not so with the North American model which has controls for this in the main menu). If you search this thread there are a couple of posts that give you instructions on how to do this.

Here's the link with instructions about how to get into the service menu.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1377321
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post #2183 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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DV - I did some testing with the 5360 and the Nvidia 3D visions vs. the Optoma ZD201's in DLP link mode the other night.

it was hard to capture the difference through the glasses, but I'll post the photos later with explanations as to which I prefer.
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post #2184 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

DV - I did some testing with the 5360 and the Nvidia 3D visions vs. the Optoma ZD201's in DLP link mode the other night.

it was hard to capture the difference through the glasses, but I'll post the photos later with explanations as to which I prefer.

This will be interesting. Many have complained that DLP-Link adulterates the on/off CR. I'm very interested in your comments since several of the popular 1080p 3D DLP projectors use DLP-Link.
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post #2185 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
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the 3D is likely to be preferred on the Epson vs. the JVC, whereas if you are a dark movie / sci-fi fan, the JVC has the advantage of a better black floor.

Likely? how about MOST DEFINITELY?? The JVC flickers in 3D and has WAY more ghosting than the Epson plus capable of less lumens in 3D for those who don't have ultra high gain screens. Re: black floor unless you have a high gain screen it's usually a struggle to get the most lumens possible so I'm not surprised the dynamic iris in the Epson is disabled in 3D to give max lumens. Re: talking 3D between the Epson 5010/6010 and the JVC RS45 it's completely apples and oranges IMO. This is from someone who now owns a 6010 and has seen side by side comparisons fed same signal same room same screen between 5010 and RS45.
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post #2186 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 02:59 PM
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[quote=Deja Vu;21700818]Here's a review of the JVC -- reviewer gave it a reference score for 3D (??). This is at odds with what many here are reporting and what Jason's photos reveal.

In fact it was that review that initially predisposed me to the JVC. But seeing the images side-by-side, at the same time on the same screen made me rethink. As predicted, the JVC had more striking/deeper blacks where there were sections of black but the Epson had more detail in the shadow areas. What surprised me a little was there seemed to be a bit more noise in the JVC picture. I would pause the movie and you could see more artefacts/blocking. Not sure why that would happen when viewing the same BD movie. Maybe the splitter degraded the signal somewhat.

Ion
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post #2187 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Here's a review of the JVC -- reviewer gave it a reference score for 3D (??). This is at odds with what many here are reporting and what Jason's photos reveal.

http://www.avforums.com/review/JVC-X...or-Review.html

From everything I've read it sounds like the rs45 is no better or even worse than the rs40 when it comes to crosstalk. Once again a "professional" reviewer that has no clue about 3d or even worse, has ulterior motives.
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post #2188 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 03:57 PM
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Hello

So do more people on the epson have those anoying ghosting on the subtitles when in a 3d movie?

And is it on a sony hw30 clean on the subtitles?
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post #2189 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Here's a review of the JVC -- reviewer gave it a reference score for 3D (??). This is at odds with what many here are reporting and what Jason's photos reveal.

http://www.avforums.com/review/JVC-X...or-Review.html

I was very curious about the reviewers findings when that review came out and asked him a few questions in the comments section. His X3 had 350 hours on it when he made the comparison which makes sense why he thought the X30 was so much better since chances are ghosting had increased with that many hours. I am guessing if he had new bulbs in both, he would not have seen any difference.

As far as him feeling the 3d was reference in general though............ I guess some people are not sensitive to what to me is obvious ghosting AND flicker.

On a side note, I tried watching the most recent Pirates of the Caribbean film today in 3d and my Oppo/45 would flat out not play it past the opening 5 seconds of the Disney/castle logo that first pops up. Never had any issue with any other 3d disc so I am thinking maybe the disc might have been bad, or maybe my 93 needs a FW update. I am not worried about it since I wont ever watch this disc again (I borrowed it from a friend and ended up just watching it in 2d), but am still curious if anyone else has had an issue with this one? It is probably just something on my end, or maybe a bad disc.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #2190 of 3270 Old 02-26-2012, 05:35 PM
 
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Looks like there will be a lot of customers for the new and improved 2102 models come this fall.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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