JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 88 - AVS Forum
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post #2611 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Zombie, have you measured the relative black levels between all of the projectors? The reason I say "relative" levels is because it takes very expensive equipment to measure the actual levels, or it requires precise measuring of on/off contrast and very accurate white levels to determine mathematically derived black levels.

The easiest way that I can think of off hand to do this would be to mount a light meter at a close, but fixed distance from each projector's lens (the distance must be precisely the same for all projectors measured). The black level will obviously be much higher than it is at the screen, but it should be in a range which is now measurable by any decent low cost light meter. Put up a 0% full field and measure. Though this will not provide the actual black floor of each projector, the numbers will be in proper proportion and will tell you what the black floors are *relative* to the other projectors.

I think people will be surprised at the results...

Edit - Now that I think of it, the distance should NOT be exactly the same! What you should do is to make a small 16:9 piece of cardboard "screen", mount it so that the image from the projector fills the small screen without spilling over, and then measure the light output from that point. Do the same on all projectors and then the figures will be relatively correct...

Two measurements from the same member/calibrator.

Epson 5010:
Using the Natural Mode, Low lamp after calibration
Long throw: 467 lumens and 6635:1 contrast
Short throw: 618 lumens and 3867:1 contrast

The auto-iris seems to provide a 3x multiple. I got just over 15,000:1 compared to about 5,000:1 native.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=188

JVC-RS45:
The contrast you would expect under ordinary conditions is 17,660. You can get higher contrast simply by using the High lamp mode, but that derives from a larger peak white value rather than a lower black level. The 52,000:1 figure from the iris fully closed position is an estimate only. The actual value is somewhat higher.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1601

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post #2612 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 12:10 PM
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This review of the Epson -- equivalent to the 5010/6010 rates the 3D as excellent. I think AVForums has some issues deciding what is "excellent 3D". The 6010 I own has very good 3D, but I would not rate it at the top of the heap for 3D. The fact that it has very bright 3D does set it apart from most other projectors. What is interesting is that Projector Reviews, PC and AVForums all rate the Sony HW30 a notch down.

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Epso...66/Review.html
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post #2613 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 12:53 PM
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Good call buddy I just ordered up 2 more pairs. It's always nice to have extra transmitters too

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Hey Bill, is there a link for this site?
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post #2614 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

This review of the Epson -- equivalent to the 5010/6010 rates the 3D as excellent. I think AVForums has some issues deciding what is "excellent 3D". The 6010 I own has very good 3D, but I would not rate it at the top of the heap for 3D. The fact that it has very bright 3D does set it apart from most other projectors. What is interesting is that Projector Reviews, PC and AVForums all rate the Sony HW30 a notch down.

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Epso...66/Review.html

The HW30 is ~900 lumens in D65 mode, the 5010 ~1400 @ near D65. The majority of people don't have HP screens, so the brighter images are generally associated with better IQ.

It's hard for me to pinpoint which I prefer, the HW30 or the 5010. Ghosting performance is nearly identical. The 5010 is a little sharper and the FI in 3D mode is better on the HW30.

assuming people don't obsess over ghosting like we do here, I can see why reviewers are giving the 5010 an Excellent rating - especially since they have likely seen the JVC X30/RS45 for comparison.

The only completely ghost-free 3D i've seen so far is the Acer 5360 and BenQ W7000.


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post #2615 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 02:48 PM
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The Micca EP950 arrived today and appears to be DOA. I can't get any response with the remote or the front panel button. I've connected the power (the brick gets REALLY HOT), Ethernet and HDMI. I tried several different sets of batteries, including those from another working remote. It says to remove a piece of protective plastic from the front before use, but there doesn't seem to be one. Am I missing something?

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post #2616 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

The Micca EP950 arrived today and appears to be DOA. I can't get any response with the remote or the front panel button. I've connected the power (the brick gets REALLY HOT), Ethernet and HDMI. I tried several different sets of batteries, including those from another working remote. It says to remove a piece of protective plastic from the front before use, but there doesn't seem to be one. Am I missing something?

ouch, that's a bummer. My power brick runs relatively cool so maybe the PS is bad? amazon should swap it out for you quickly.

There is a thin film cover the front panel on the 950, it's a pain to get it started to peel it off, but shouldn't stop it from powering on via the front touch controls.


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post #2617 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The HW30 is ~900 lumens in D65 mode, the 5010 ~1400 @ near D65. The majority of people don't have HP screens, so the brighter images are generally associated with better IQ.

It's hard for me to pinpoint which I prefer, the HW30 or the 5010. Ghosting performance is nearly identical. The 5010 is a little sharper and the FI in 3D mode is better on the HW30.

assuming people don't obsess over ghosting like we do here, I can see why reviewers are giving the 5010 an Excellent rating - especially since they have likely seen the JVC X30/RS45 for comparison.

The only completely ghost-free 3D i've seen so far is the Acer 5360 and BenQ W7000.

I might have considered going with a BenQ, but believe that the blacks and 2D aren't as good as the Epson 6010. I also gave it a ding on issues/firmware vs. excellent service from Epson. Maybe all the issues with BenQ have been resolved, but it's hard to beat Epson's service record. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

Even with a 1.4 gain screen, I still greatly appreciate the brightness of the Epson, especially in 3D. It's blows my RS40 out of the water in that area. I needed it for 136" dig 2.35:1 screen. The JVC was, well, horrible after 200 hours.

Ghosting is very minimal on the Epson IMHO too. So yes, I'd say that its 3D is excellent, or at least very, VERY good. Active lens 3D requires light and the Epson is bright in my setup. There's also no annoying flicker thanks to higher chip ref. rate. And the 2D and blacks are good enough to relegate my RS40 back to it's box, either as a backup, sale, or gift to family.

I also went ahead and ordered two MonsterVision 3D glasses/transmitters for primary use for $107 shipped after coupon. Thanks in part to your review/recommendation. The great price helped too.

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post #2618 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Steve, I agree with everything you said, the 5010 is definitely one of the top picks this year for excellent brightness, black levels and performance in 3D.

As a single projector, I wouldn't recommend the BenQ W7000 over the Epson. The ideal setup for the W7000 is as a 2nd projector for a JVC owner. The lens shift is perfect for HP owners (it's the only DLP that can work perfect with the HP).

When you're ready to see one of the best 3D movies out there.. pick up this import (it's region A):

http://www.yesasia.com/us/sammys-adv...0-en/info.html

You haven't seen 3D until you've seen this movie. It's the first disk I grab when visitors come over. The 3D is very intense in this animation (popouts / depth) and doesn't stop for a minute throughout the whole movie.


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post #2619 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

The Micca EP950 arrived today and appears to be DOA. I can't get any response with the remote or the front panel button. I've connected the power (the brick gets REALLY HOT), Ethernet and HDMI. I tried several different sets of batteries, including those from another working remote. It says to remove a piece of protective plastic from the front before use, but there doesn't seem to be one. Am I missing something?

Sorry you unit arrive D.O.A. It sounds like the power supply. Did you get a red light on the front when you plugged in the power supply. If you did it could be the remote
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post #2620 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

Sorry you unit arrive D.O.A. It sounds like the power supply. Did you get a red light on the front when you plugged in the power supply. If you did it could be the remote

No, I never saw a light on the front. It's not the batteries. I'll just send it back and get another.

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post #2621 of 3270 Old 05-10-2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Steve, I agree with everything you said, the 5010 is definitely one of the top picks this year for excellent brightness, black levels and performance in 3D.

As a single projector, I wouldn't recommend the BenQ W7000 over the Epson. The ideal setup for the W7000 is as a 2nd projector for a JVC owner. The lens shift is perfect for HP owners (it's the only DLP that can work perfect with the HP).

When you're ready to see one of the best 3D movies out there.. pick up this import (it's region A):

http://www.yesasia.com/us/sammys-adv...0-en/info.html

You haven't seen 3D until you've seen this movie. It's the first disk I grab when visitors come over. The 3D is very intense in this animation (popouts / depth) and doesn't stop for a minute throughout the whole movie.

Thanks! Unfortunately, I can't do stacked PJs easily. I needed a single 2D/3D solution for simplicity and I wanted something that was as bright as I could get without sacrificing too much black floor coming from a JVC. The Epson has exceeded my expectations. I hope that opinion won't change.

I've tried to stop buying everything that says 3D BD and limit myself to things I'll like and might watch more than once. And native 3D is getting to be a must too. I need the studios to produce more GOOD movies shot with 3D cameras. I'm looking forward to some good titles already announced for this year.

I do have a fairly substantial 3D collection/subset. Not quite as many as you have, but pretty close or at least close enough for me. Still, I'll have to consider getting Sammy though based on your recommendation! Might as well add more to good looking 3D's to my collection.

...Steve
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post #2622 of 3270 Old 05-12-2012, 06:48 AM
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Zoobie's quote: "I don't need the 1400+ lumens on my HP screen since i'm getting nearly 3.x gain with my optimal projector location. This is nearly 3000 lumens in 3D on the HW30.. but the Epson 3D torch mode will cause me to squint with bright scenes on my HP.. how cool is that when the general complaint is that 3D is too dim in the HT? [/quote]

I disagree with you here. I use my 6010 in 3D mode on my120" HP screen and it is not too bright in dynamic mode with glasses on since you lose 70 to 80% of the brightness. Those 3000 to 4000 lumens are suddenly 900 to 1300 lumens and that's with a new bulb! If you lose 20% to 30% brightness over the first 500 hours then you're down to 700 to 900 lumens with glasses on. If you lose more brightness over time then you're out of luck. Making assessments about lumens with new lamps is a mistake in my opinion and only gives part of a much bigger picture. I'll take the brightest image I can get and tame it and then I've got head room when the bulb starts to dim, as they all do.
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post #2623 of 3270 Old 05-12-2012, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not saying the Epson is too bright in torch mode on the HP, it's great to see that many lumens even after the glasses knock down the brightness.

my comment is that the HW30 on the HP is good enough for my preferences. The lamp in the Sony has been very well behaved of all the projectors I've owned so far. The price to replace is so cheap, it makes me wonder why all the companies can't sell ~$200 lamps. I run this projector for hours on end and don't think about the lamp.

If I didn't already own the HW30 to back up the RS55, it would be the 5010 without a doubt.


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post #2624 of 3270 Old 05-12-2012, 11:07 AM
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So, did you like Epson more than Sony? My impression from your shoot outs was that Sony was overall better projector. Same story I got from my local installer. Epson wouldn't work for me due to gaming lag, but without the lag would you rank Epson higher overall?
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post #2625 of 3270 Old 05-12-2012, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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So, did you like Epson more than Sony? My impression from your shoot outs was that Sony was overall better projector. Same story I got from my local installer. Epson wouldn't work for me due to gaming lag, but without the lag would you rank Epson higher overall?

that last conversation was in the context of 3D brightness. There's no doubt the 5010 is the lumen king. With some off colors (not terrible) the torch mode can crank out 2000 lumens which outpaces the current projectors by nearly 2x the light output in 3D mode.

The HW30 and the 5010 both have their advantages. The Sony has the lowest lag time and the least expensive lamps. The colors are pretty close to accurate out of the box. The Epson has the blinding torch modes in 2D and 3D and great blacks for an LCD projector. The Sony has imo a better FI in 2D and works in 3D as well which is great. I like the Epson factory glasses better than the Sony's.

I could keep going back and forth, but both are great all around projectors that didn't exist in this price category a year ago. It was either the JVC's with great blacks, but average 3D due to the ghosting, or DLP's that were excellent at 3D, but the contrast was lacking in 2D. The Sony and Epson are the middle ground projectors this year, both very good with 2D and 3D.


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post #2626 of 3270 Old 05-13-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

that last conversation was in the context of 3D brightness. There's no doubt the 5010 is the lumen king. With some off colors (not terrible) the torch mode can crank out 2000 lumens which outpaces the current projectors by nearly 2x the light output in 3D mode.

The HW30 and the 5010 both have their advantages. The Sony has the lowest lag time and the least expensive lamps. The colors are pretty close to accurate out of the box. The Epson has the blinding torch modes in 2D and 3D and great blacks for an LCD projector. The Sony has imo a better FI in 2D and works in 3D as well which is great. I like the Epson factory glasses better than the Sony's.

I could keep going back and forth, but both are great all around projectors that didn't exist in this price category a year ago. It was either the JVC's with great blacks, but average 3D due to the ghosting, or DLP's that were excellent at 3D, but the contrast was lacking in 2D. The Sony and Epson are the middle ground projectors this year, both very good with 2D and 3D.

Nice job on your comparisons between these projectors. Guess I will stick with the Acer 5360 for 3d only and monster RF glasses. No green tint like you show with the nvidia glasses. Using VIP Theatre for frame sequential output to the Acer.

If I were to get one projector I think I would go with the Sony.
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post #2627 of 3270 Old 05-14-2012, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice job on your comparisons between these projectors. Guess I will stick with the Acer 5360 for 3d only and monster RF glasses. No green tint like you show with the nvidia glasses. Using VIP Theatre for frame sequential output to the Acer.

If I were to get one projector I think I would go with the Sony.

thanks for the info on the VIP theater working with the 5360 and the RF glasses, I was curious if this combo would work ok.

The 5360 is still a heck of a projector for the $$, it started the 3D front projector revolution.


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post #2628 of 3270 Old 05-14-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for the info on the VIP theater working with the 5360 and the RF glasses, I was curious if this combo would work ok.

The 5360 is still a heck of a projector for the $$, it started the 3D front projector revolution.

It really is a good deal. Just last night I was able to adjust greyscale with DE's under 2. In fact most points were almost perfect. All I used was the RGB offsets to balance greyscale and found a degamma of 1 to be close to a 2.4 gamma curve. The default degamma 3 was more like a 2.7 gamma and the image is too dark.

I can get a good greyscale taking measurements through the glasses too. The RF glasses do favor green. Maybe not as bad as some like the nvidea but they do still favor green.
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post #2629 of 3270 Old 05-14-2012, 11:51 AM
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Well, it looks like there are some significant improvements going from the HiMedia 900A to the Micca EP950, despite the fact that the hardware seems to be identical. Here is my preliminary report:

1. With a directly attached hard drive, the Micca works perfectly, just like the HiMedia.

2. With a USB 2.0 drive attached, the Micca works perfectly where the HiMedia would stutter on higher bitrate ISOs. This alone is a significant improvement, as you can attach at least 2 USB drives (and a third one via the USB 3.0 port), as well as drop a drive into the unit itself.

3. This unit is networking with my Windows machines perfectly. I can play back even high bitrate 3D BD ISOs over the network without even the slightest hiccup - again this is a SIGNIFICANT improvement over the HiMedia box!

4. I am still having problems streaming from my UnRaid (Linux) server to the Micca box. Since I now have the same problem with both the HiMedia and Micca units when networking to my main server, I decided to post the problem in the UnRaid forum. One user posted that he had the same problem, so he switched from using Samba shares to NFS shares. I am a total Linux noob, so I am not sure of how to get this accomplished, but I am working on it and will report back as soon as I figure out how to do this and test it out.

5. The Micca unit plays 24 FPS very smoothly with no dropped frames that I can detect, but then again, I never saw any dropped frames or stutters with the HiMedia box either.

6. The Micca firmware also has an option to "ask before playing" BD ISOs to determine what method of menuing you want to use. I like this feature a lot! One of my IMAX ISOs would play the "Making of" feature instead of the main feature when using the HiMedia, but by choosing a different menuing method with the Micca I was able to get the correct feature to play, something I could not get around no matter what I did with the HiMedia.

Basically, the Micca firmware seems to be considerably better than the HiMedia firmware, and since it uses the same hardware and costs less than the HiMedia box, it is a no brainer to me to buy the Micca EP950 instead of the HiMedia 900A (or 900B, for an apples to apples comparison). Now if I can only get it to play .MKV and .ISO files back SMOOTHLY from my main server, I will use this box exclusively in my system...

Thanks for the tip on this box, Zombie! Great call!

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post #2630 of 3270 Old 05-14-2012, 12:12 PM
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Now if I can only get it to play .MKV and .ISO files back SMOOTHLY from my main server, I will use this box exclusively in my system...

Are you having issues with MKVs? It looked like your ISO experience was smooth, so I'm curious about your comment.

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post #2631 of 3270 Old 05-14-2012, 12:37 PM
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Are you having issues with MKVs? It looked like your ISO experience was smooth, so I'm curious about your comment.

I am having issues with both 2D MKVs and 3D ISOs (the only 2 formats I use) when streaming from my main Linux UnRaid server. Both MKVs and ISOs play back smoothly when sourced from *anywhere* else. Please remember, these are only preliminary findings, as I have only had one day (Sunday) to play with this box, but so far so good except for streaming from my main server...

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post #2632 of 3270 Old 05-14-2012, 01:06 PM
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Zombie, your PM mailbox is full! i've been tryin to send you something. Figured this was relevant as you are the OP
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post #2633 of 3270 Old 05-14-2012, 03:50 PM
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NFS shares work!

This will be of particular interest to unRAID users...from klgray in the UnRaid forum:

Quote:


Like you, I was getting stuttering and dropped audio when streaming some files off unRAID, particularly those with high data rate encodes. I enabled NFS as a quick and dirty test because I read it plays better with media boxes, which typically run Linux. It worked and I haven't bothered to set it up "officially." Here's what I did:

1) In the standard unRAID 4.7 webgui on the Shares page I enabled NFS for the shares only, not under Export Settings but under User Shares instead. For each share I wanted NFS access to, I added "*(rw,insecure)" in the Export(NFS) box and clicked Apply. (I didn't know if the media box needed to write anything to the share -- it appears that the HiMedia/Micca boxes don't.)

2) On the HiMedia/Micca box, I clicked File Manager - NFS - AutoScan (File Manager - Network uses SMB). The box flashes up the message, "Start Searching NFS Shares!" If you press the OK button on the remote again while it's searching, it'll flash the message, "Searching NFS Shares is Ongoing!" After a few seconds it'll flash the message, "Searching NFS Shares Finished!"

3) With AutoScan still highlighted, press OK on the remote again. AT that point I see a list of the shares I exported as NFS. Highlight the share of interest and click OK as many times as it takes to navigate to the file of interest.

So all I did was export some NFS shares. I did nothing to the SMB shares, so a Windows PC continues to be able to access them as well. At some point I should figure out how to access the shares via "ShortCuts" so I don't have to do the scan each time I power on the box.

I simply entered

*(ro)

in the unRAID WebGUI NFS shares box for each share I wanted the Micca box to use and then followed the rest of Ken's instructions - works like a charm!

Now I can stream either format (3D ISO or 2D MKV) from my unRAID server and everything runs smooth as silk...I would assume that the HiMedia box will respond in the same manner, though I don't have the box here to verify (I lent it to a friend).

I still don't understand why Samba is giving me a hard time, but at least this workaround is easy and works great...

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post #2634 of 3270 Old 05-14-2012, 03:55 PM
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I would guess you can attach many more USB drives with a USB hub.



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I would guess you can attach many more USB drives with a USB hub.

You are probably right, but since I have two 40 TB unRAID media servers (80 TB total), you can imagine how concerned I was about getting the Micca box to work without stuttering.

Oops, sorry for the OT....

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post #2636 of 3270 Old 05-14-2012, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Bob, that's great it's work well for you with the NFS change. Maybe their samba code isn't as efficient. It would make sense since SMB is mainly a microsoft tech and NFS is native to the linux OS.

When I had the network skipping on the HiMedia 900b, I was going to try to setup NFS shares on my 2008 R2 Server which is where all my storage is. Once I swapped to the Mica 950, I can now stream the 3D BD ISO's with no skipping, using the same windows shares. They must have changed something in the hardware.

I used the 950 quite a bit this weekend between the RS55 and the HW30. It's working well with all the 2D and 3D BD ISO's i've tried so far. Direct play is my favorite feature - I've forgotten the torture of slow loading BD's and the bloated front ends.

I still use my HTPC for HDTV since it has the Ceton Quad tuner and works like a champ for recording and distribution throughout the house to the 360 extender. The 950 is a good companion for fast playback of my BD library + the price is excellent.

My dust-collecting PCH-C200's are hitting the internet soon.


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When I had the network skipping on the HiMedia 900b, I was going to try to setup NFS shares on my 2008 R2 Server which is where all my storage is. Once I swapped to the Mica 950, I can now stream the 3D BD ISO's with no skipping, using the same windows shares. They must have changed something in the hardware.

Yes, IMHO the Micca box is significantly better than the HiMedia unit, but I suspect that the difference is in firmware, not in hardware, though I could be wrong and you could be right. Regardless, the performance I am now getting from the Micca box makes it the bargain of the year for hardware media playback solutions. Thanks again for turning me on to this box!!

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80 TB, that's a huge amount of disk space (wow). You can start your own online backup service with that much disk space :P



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I was wondering if anyone was using a Seymour Center Stage XD electric screen with the Epson 5010. If anyone is, do they see any moire with the Epson. I had a Viewsonic Pro8100 and it was visible with that projector.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Yes, IMHO the Micca box is significantly better than the HiMedia unit, but I suspect that the difference is in firmware, not in hardware, though I could be wrong and you could be right. Regardless, the performance I am now getting from the Micca box makes it the bargain of the year for hardware media playback solutions. Thanks again for turning me on to this box!!

It seems that these boxes are no longer available. Amazon does not have them anymore and Adorama states there is a hardware issue. I wonder if the motion picture industry came after them.
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