JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 91 - AVS Forum
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post #2701 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Makomachine View Post

Got my 5010 setup and have watched Underworld Awakening and IMAX Deep Sea in 3D as well as some 2D Direct TV television the last two nights. My observations in this short period of time is as follows:

- Color accuracy, brightness uniformity, sharpness, and overall brightness (no surprise) are all vastly superior to the RS1

- Black levels are excellent in 2D and acceptable in 3D with auto iris set to Normal. Whether they are superior or not would require a side by side, which hasn't been done. Regardless, they are impressive and I'm not left wanting in that regard.

- Fan noise is non existent compared to the RS1 when in ECO mode - very happy.

- image is more "digital" looking than the RS1. I find this more to my taste on most things and a slight downgrade in others. Overall, I find it closer to DLP than LCOS which was what I'd hoped.

The only calibration done to date is basic adjustments - running in Cinema mode at 7000 ct and playing around with FI and Super Res based on content.

Very happy thus far and will post final thoughts after I get more time with the unit.

The RS1(12,000:1) and Epson(13,000:1) should be fairly close in contrast/black levels. Plus the Epson is brighter when calibrated.
I wouldn't expect any downgrade in that area. Enjoy your new toy.
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post #2702 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Makomachine View Post


- image is more "digital" looking than the RS1. I find this more to my taste on most things and a slight downgrade in others. Overall, I find it closer to DLP than LCOS which was what I'd hoped.

No way, LCOS is closer to DLP due to pixel fill.
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post #2703 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 10:53 AM
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^ Could he being comparing sharpness of the image?
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post #2704 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Makomachine View Post


The 5010 / silverstar combo is a weapon of retina destruction!

I know how bright it was on my 2.8HP, it must be even brighter on the silverstar. There is no such thing as 'too bright' with 3D..
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post #2705 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 12:40 PM
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I watched Sammy's Adventure (A Turtle's Tale) on the JVC RS-45 by renting it from VUDU (SBS - Side by Side 3d). They have it for $7 to rent right now (and there is some good 3D in this animated flick).

Obviously there was ghosting, but I was expecting it to be worse than it was given I was streaming it in SBS and watching a known "ghost flick". I mean there were a few really bad ghosting parts, but it was still very watchable. The funniest part was when it showed a ship outside with a MAST (there were 3 MAST's ghosting instead of 1). Also the outside shots generally ghosted a lot mroe than the underwater shots, most of the underwater shots had either very little ghosting or so little it was hard to see. The streaming bandwidth and overall compression VUDU uses is still far superior to the other streaming services (not talking about 3D, but in general). Hulu Plus can come close for some of their newer content, but VUDU is still ahead of all the others (but you pay for it). I can get very close to Bluray quality in some VUDU movies (occassionally some are worse, not sure why). You need more than 10 Mbps though for it to maximize it, I have 25 Mbps down.

The thing about ghosting is you gotta try to ignore it, but it is more distracting at times than others. Also occasionally the RS-45 will look flickery during 3D motion, guess it's the way 3D is combined with the JVC's slower panel refresh rates when not using FI (no FI in JVC's 3d). Still, I was able to enjoy the 3D despite the defects, it really wasn't but 10% to 20% of the time when you really notice anything that distracting. Of course I'm not saying it was even near perfectly clean or anything, but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be as there were many scenes that ghosted so little that you couldn't see it during the underwater stuff (which was most of the movie).


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post #2706 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imblind View Post

No way, LCOS is closer to DLP due to pixel fill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVS View Post

^ Could he being comparing sharpness of the image?

Perceived sharpness was my measure. My RS1 was always soft - and convergence wasn't great on my unit anyway.
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post #2707 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I know how bright it was on my 2.8HP, it must be even brighter on the silverstar. There is no such thing as 'too bright' with 3D..

Zombie, is the HW30 bright enough for 3D on a 120" 2.35 screen 1.0 gain screen or should I go with 5010 ?
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post #2708 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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CG - I think Meet the Robison's and Happy feet 2 are the new benchmarks for 3D ghosting vs. Sammy's. HF2 is brutal with all the high contrast scenes.

I don't have much patience for the SBS content, it looks too soft on any of my projectors on the 142".
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post #2709 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

Zombie, is the HW30 bright enough for 3D on a 120" 2.35 screen 1.0 gain screen or should I go with 5010 ?

definitely the 5010 on a 120" 2:35:1 with 1.0 gain.
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post #2710 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

CG - I think Meet the Robison's and Happy feet 2 are the new benchmarks for 3D ghosting vs. Sammy's. HF2 is brutal with all the high contrast scenes.

I don't have much patience for the SBS content, it looks too soft on any of my projectors on the 142".

I didn't have the Bluray to compare so I couldn't check for softness, but it looked ok to me overall (maybe it was softer). I am sure some movies will ghost even worse than Sammy's on the RS-45, but I'm just saying that for some people that just watch 3D rarely, they probably will not care that much since there is quite a bit of content that is still very watchable on the JVC. I guess it just depends how hardcore you are. 3D on the JVC means more eye fatigue, less fluid motion, and occasional ghosting (some movies more than others).

BTW, there are some good deals now on the Optoma hd33 for those on a budget pairing with another projector for 3D. The Optoma's hd33 - 3D should be relatively close to the same as the Benq w7000 (until someone says otherwise, I'm assuming it is). The hd33 has at least equal native on/off contrast and maybe higher, but the Benq is probably sharper and slightly darker blacks with IRIS, but the hd33 will probably give it a run for the money at almost half the cost (except that the Benq can be center-mounted to an HP screen, and the Optoma cannot). The thing going for the Optoma is the definite 6x color wheel, and I still think the Benq is 4x (until someone proves otherwise). The hd33 has a small offset (only 7.8" for a 100" screen), so even without lens shift, many of us mount our projectors in the back with our HP screens and still put them up higher (with the 2.4 HP, you'd probably get between 1.3 to 1.5 gain, if floor mounting around 1.6 to 1.7 gain).


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post #2711 of 3270 Old 05-24-2012, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I was watching the W7000 the other night while calibrating it to D65 and measured about 1500 lumens in 2D mode. it's a bit too bright when the lights are off with max gain on the HP, but I found I can watch it no problem with a room full of lights which is nice compared to the HW30 or the RS55.

I can see rainbows all day long on the Acer 5360 in 2D, not too bad in 3D, but I rarely if ever see them in 2D on the W7000 even with the torch mode on the HP and none at all in 3D. It's hard to believe it's only 4x if the 5360 was a 3x projector. I have some emails into BQ to get a definitive answer on this.

I was testing out the Mica 950 on the W7000 the other night. I could watching 3D for hours on this projector - the lack of ghosting and the high refresh rate is very easy on my eyes. I have a few new imports to check out this weekend.
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post #2712 of 3270 Old 05-25-2012, 02:46 AM
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Can anyone give a comparison of black levels from any of these projectors to an LCD TV?

I have a Sharp LC-60E88UN and was wondering what difference I would see. Thanks.
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post #2713 of 3270 Old 05-25-2012, 03:21 PM
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Benq told us today the new firmware W7000's are now available for shipping.

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post #2714 of 3270 Old 05-29-2012, 03:47 PM
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Why is there information missing from the comparison in regards to the epson 5010? Will it be added later?
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post #2715 of 3270 Old 05-30-2012, 04:56 AM
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Picked me up a few new Home Theater items for the JVC. I finally ordered a newer version Matrix HDMI Switch and (4) new 3D movies (just whatever is cheap I grab for 3D, I can't stand paying over $30 for a single movie). I hope this switch will not cause the JVC to lock up, we shall see... I didn't use my old switch with the JVC at all due to lockup concerns (PJ's can lockup when switch locks or synchs wrong).

KanaaN HDMI Matrix 4 Input 2 Output (4x2) Splitter Switch - 3D - Full HD 1080p + Remote Control + HDMI 1.3b + SPDIF/ Toslink and 3.5 mm Jack Audio Output, HD

A lumagen would be best, but too much money right now for me to spend. Also ordered me one of those URC R50 universal remotes, since my Phillips one busted.


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post #2716 of 3270 Old 05-31-2012, 09:36 AM
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Here's a little comparison by BassMaster5 between the Panasonic and the Epson 5010. Too bad Zombie didn't get a Panasonic to compare with the others in his shootout, especially for 3D.

"Well i have had both the Epson 5010 and Panasonic AE7000u for about 2 weeks now and here are my thoughts.

2D PERFORMANCE. The Epson is on another level. The 5010 delivers not only a brighter and more accurate picture than the ae7000u but also delivers deeper black levels and much more "pop" in the picture than the ae7000u. The only benefit of the ae7000u is the pixel smoothing, which if you sit 6' from 120", then you will want the ae7000u. The ae7000u though has a hard time with red text ( at least my two units did ) as it makes red text almost un-readable


3D PERFORMANCE. The Epson AGAIN smokes the ae7000u. The panasonic is PLAGUED with ghosting. No matter how long i let it sit i always got ghost on 3D blurays or playing games on my PC with nvidia 3D vision with the depth maxed out. The epson has almost ZERO ghosting ( needs about 5 mins in 3D before its good to go, at least on my unit ) and is very bright on my 120" screen. Black levels are a hair deeper on the panasonic but its almost a third dimmer.

CLARITY AND FOCUS. Normally there is no need to get into this but while my epson is very very clear, i went through 2 ae7000u's during this 2 week period and both had a very almost " out of focus " like picture. Im not sure on this but i found this strange.

CONVERGENCE. I think i got lucky with my epson as the pixels were within 1/8th of a pixel on red and 1/4th of a pixel on blue. The epsons pixel alignment tool is a nice feature, but i dont need it. The panasonic on the other hand could have used it BIG TIME. Both ae7000u's had serious pixel alignment issues. My first unit arrived with the red off by 3 pixels!

FINAL. Overall i found the epson to be much better and have sent back the panasonic. I apologize if this post has offended anyone but its just my findings on these two projectors."
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post #2717 of 3270 Old 05-31-2012, 09:52 AM
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We already knew the Epson was much better, so there really wasn't much reason to compare it. I wasn't terribly impressed by the 7000 when I saw it in 2D mode only (didnt see its 3D), although I did see a very well converged one that looked like only about 3/4 of a pixel off, possibly just as sharp or sharper than the 5010 I saw if only the Panny didn't have the Smooth Screen. Yes, I know technically Smooth Screen does not reduce sharpness (I've seen the argument from Cine4Home about Smooth Screen), but all that actually matters in this stuff is what our eye perceives. I did think the FI was very good (very), but the contrast reminded me more of older LCD projectors from 2008ish.

The one advantage to the Panny is it has more of a film-like look with less SDE, if you like that sort of thing, but it feels more forced with the smooth screen than it does with an LCOS projector.

Sharpness and convergence on LCD is luck of the draw (on LCOS too though). I've seen so many 8700ub's now (tons), and the convergence was all over the place, anywhere from 1 pixel off to 3 pixels off. I think the 5010 does have better QC on convergence and a stricter standard though.


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post #2718 of 3270 Old 05-31-2012, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Here's a little comparison by BassMaster5 between the Panasonic and the Epson 5010. Too bad Zombie didn't get a Panasonic to compare with the others in his shootout, especially for 3D.

I would like to have seen the 7000 in person, but i'm not that surprised by those comments. The lamp flickering is what would have scared me off. I know i'd be the one to get stuck with the problem projector.
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post #2719 of 3270 Old 05-31-2012, 08:14 PM
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Anyone tried this yet?

http://timescapes.org/

Looks like it might be great for projector testing/demo material.

I've ordered the basic Blu-ray. It's not clear in the description, but when you order the Blu-ray you get access to a 1080p download immediately (about 4GB in size). It's downloading as I type this...

One more edit... One of the key guys who did Art of Flight was involved in this project...
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post #2720 of 3270 Old 05-31-2012, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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there was talk of it in Sony forum since they have a 4k version available. Let me know what you think of it. The guys who filmed Art of Flight did an excellent job.
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post #2721 of 3270 Old 05-31-2012, 11:17 PM
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I guess I am the only one having problems with the epson 5010 3d performance?

Using gen 3 panny glasses, the motion blur looks transparent (any kind of movement onscreen). When there's a scene in motion, my eyes can't focus correctly at the moving objects, which is very distracting and gave me a headache after 10 mins. I am not sure if this is ghosting or not..and the source material was Hugo in half SBS @1080p.

Anyone else experienced this problem? I just ordered myself some Epson glasses, hoping the problem will be fixed, or else I can't watch 3d on this thing.
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post #2722 of 3270 Old 06-01-2012, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

there was talk of it in Sony forum since they have a 4k version available. Let me know what you think of it. The guys who filmed Art of Flight did an excellent job.

Watched about 10 minutes of the 1080p H264 version and it's amazing! Now, I do have a nit-pick... I see some artifacts (nothing huge, but when zillions of stars are moving...), which I'm guessing is the result of the goal to keep the size to a manageable level. The 1080p version is 3.75GB.

I wrote them a note and asked whether the bitrate for the Blu-ray is higher. I'm hopeful it is! The content will be spectacular in that case.

There is tremendous diversity in color, brightness and darkness (often within 10 seconds or so). I was watching on my laptop, but will try and get this to play on my HW30 tonight.
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post #2723 of 3270 Old 06-01-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Watched about 10 minutes of the 1080p H264 version and it's amazing! Now, I do have a nit-pick... I see some artifacts (nothing huge, but when zillions of stars are moving...), which I'm guessing is the result of the goal to keep the size to a manageable level. The 1080p version is 3.75GB.

I wrote them a note and asked whether the bitrate for the Blu-ray is higher. I'm hopeful it is! The content will be spectacular in that case.

There is tremendous diversity in color, brightness and darkness (often within 10 seconds or so). I was watching on my laptop, but will try and get this to play on my HW30 tonight.

Just got an email back from the Timescapes people... The blu-rau content is 17GB, so one can assume the bitrate is about 4.5x higher! I'm looking forward to getting the blu-ray in the mail!
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post #2724 of 3270 Old 06-01-2012, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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they should have just put a BD ISO for DL, 17GB is nothing these days to DL. I guess i'll have to get the BD, it should look killer on the RS55.

@ Singuy - the Epson glasses are a perfect match for the 5010, I tried several other glasses and none were as good. Do you have access to any real 3D BD's? (frame packed)

SBS leaves a lot to be desired in comparison in my opinion.
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post #2725 of 3270 Old 06-01-2012, 01:13 PM
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Epson 5010's are going for 300 off with a coupon on bounti BOUNTII. This makes the 5010 top of my list and I really want one
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post #2726 of 3270 Old 06-02-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

they should have just put a BD ISO for DL, 17GB is nothing these days to DL. I guess i'll have to get the BD, it should look killer on the RS55.

Agree with the "just let us download the 17GB" version.

I watched the 3.75GB 1080p version on my HW30 last night and it was amazing! This title will absolutely be my #1 "quick demo" material from now on. People might even be hooked and watch the entire thing (~40 mins without credits)

Now even more looking forward to getting the higher bitrate bluray... The timesscapes people told me it should ship early this upcoming week.
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post #2727 of 3270 Old 06-02-2012, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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i'm wiring an SP890 in a conference room and it's going to be major pain to run a very long HDMI cable with this particular setup. I haven't paid attention to see if there were any worthwhile wireless HDMI setups available.

I did some looking around and found a number of positive comments on the Iogear wireless HDMI transmitter/receiver.

i'm using it at home with the Mica 950 on 1 end and a 47" Panasonic LCD about 60 feet away. There are 2 inputs into the device and it has a nice IR blaster with multiple IR senders on a single wire which are separated by about a foot. I guess the idea is that you can mount several IR blasters for 2 devices which can be remotely switched by the receiver.

I did a quick hookup and this is working surprisingly well. I'm using the Art of Flight as a test since it's such high paced video. I haven't seen any detectable artifacts or signs of compression. It claims to handle 3D BD as well, i'll have to try that later.

it also has an HDMI pass through for the TV at the source so there isn't anything special needed to integrate this into a setup. It runs on the 5Ghz frequency.

very cool product!

http://go.iogear.com/lp/GW3DHDKIT/?src=ProductPage



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post #2728 of 3270 Old 06-03-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


I did a quick hookup and this is working surprisingly well. I'm using the Art of Flight as a test since it's such high paced video. I haven't seen any detectable artifacts or signs of compression. It claims to handle 3D BD as well, i'll have to try that later.

Hi Jason,

What's the highest peakrate in Art of Flight, and ideally would you have a measured bitrate at a specific time? I often use "The say after tomorrow" for bitrate as right at the opening logo it can easily saturate borderline connections (and the opening sequence is great to defect any stutter thanks to the long aerial travelling which has also some nice peaks) but I'd consider Art of Flight if it had higher bitrate. No doubt AoF has better picture quality, I'm just talking bitrate here.
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post #2729 of 3270 Old 06-03-2012, 05:16 PM
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Manni01's right. Picture quality and higher bit rate don't always mean the same thing. You have to look at how video encoders work.

Movies shot digitally usually have a lot less grain to the picture and will therefore not need anywhere near the same amount of information and bit rates won't be as high usually as well. Film grain takes a lot of information up because the image is changing so often. This always drives up the bit rate.

Considering how clean the source is from noise and grain high bit rate peaks will be rare on a movie like The Art of Flight.

You should throw something grainy at it.
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post #2730 of 3270 Old 06-03-2012, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Manni01's right. Picture quality and higher bit rate don't always mean the same thing. You have to look at how video encoders work.

Movies shot digitally usually have a lot less grain to the picture and will therefore not need anywhere near the same amount of information and bit rates won't be as high usually as well. Film grain takes a lot of information up because the image is changing so often. This always drives up the bit rate.

Considering how clean the source is from noise and grain high bit rate peaks will be rare on a movie like The Art of Flight.

You should throw something grainy at it.

True although to be fair Jason never mentionned high bitrate but fast paced, so he might have used AofF to test stutter as motion in AofF seems indeed so fast paced, and therefore would be a very good test to detect that. Also grain by itself doesn't garantee high bitrate, as some blurays are sadly made from poor masters initially made for DVD and give you grainy and poor quality picture with medium bitrate (I'm thinking about movies like The Fugitive).

The bitrate question was a kind of separate question of mine as I am genuinely interested in finding out the peak bitrate of that title. Given the price of the bluray, I haven't bought it yet and a super high bitrate might convince me to pull the trigger

The only way to be sure about the bitrate is to look at the actual real-time bitrate of the movie (in scenes where there is intense motion and complex pictures, so outdoors travellings are usually a good place to start) which you can display in most software and hardware players, including mediaplayers like the Dune. The size of the main m2ts is only an indication if the movie is less than two hours (in which case if the main m2ts file is close to 50gb without the bonus, it's usually high bitrate).
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