JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 92 - AVS Forum
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post #2731 of 3270 Old 06-04-2012, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Manni - I was mainly looking for stuttering or skipping in the AOF. I also tried Fifth element and a few others movies as well. I haven't tried 3D yet.

I tested the IR blaster with the Mica 950, Samung BD player and my old Pioneer BDP-05FD player without issue.

I'm just amazed that it works, I thought this wouldn't be possible without noticeable artifacts or obvious signs of compression.
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post #2732 of 3270 Old 06-04-2012, 07:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

i'm wiring an SP890 in a conference room and it's going to be major pain to run a very long HDMI cable with this particular setup. I haven't paid attention to see if there were any worthwhile wireless HDMI setups available.

I did some looking around and found a number of positive comments on the Iogear wireless HDMI transmitter/receiver.

i'm using it at home with the Mica 950 on 1 end and a 47" Panasonic LCD about 60 feet away. There are 2 inputs into the device and it has a nice IR blaster with multiple IR senders on a single wire which are separated by about a foot. I guess the idea is that you can mount several IR blasters for 2 devices which can be remotely switched by the receiver.

I did a quick hookup and this is working surprisingly well. I'm using the Art of Flight as a test since it's such high paced video. I haven't seen any detectable artifacts or signs of compression. It claims to handle 3D BD as well, i'll have to try that later.

it also has an HDMI pass through for the TV at the source so there isn't anything special needed to integrate this into a setup. It runs on the 5Ghz frequency.

very cool product!

Members should read the Wireless HDMI Special Report in the June 2012 of Home Theater magazine. For the I/O Gear unit tested, going through a wall resulted in audio dropouts. Further WHDI based HDMI gear won't sent high-rez audio unless its decoded into PCM.
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post #2733 of 3270 Old 06-04-2012, 08:34 AM
 
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The June Home Theater Magazine tested the Sharp XV-Z30000. This projector is an all new design (unlike last year’s 17000, a business projector hack).
The main positive is the image is very sharp and clear. The main limitation is (like all 3D DLP projectors) is a measured native contrast of only 1722:1. Who wants to pay 2-3 x for the same mediocre contrast?
The image was not too bright on reviewer Tom Norton’s 1.1 gain screen, so he preferred to use the high lamp setting.

For some reason he also preferred the “punch and brightness” of 2D over 3D (well at least he didn’t use a grey screen, as another professional reviewer did.) Sadly though he missed the opportunity to view with a High Power screen (which he recently reviewed).
After Tom down rated the $5K projector for not having a CMS, Sharp suddenly pulled a rabbit out of their hat and claimed to have added it to the service menu. Does anyone have the Sharp codes?

Is anyone here familiar with the procedure to unmount and ship a projector for a firmware upgrade? Do you get a refurbished one or a new one?
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post #2734 of 3270 Old 06-04-2012, 09:02 AM
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the Epson glasses are a perfect match for the 5010, I tried several other glasses and none were as good.

I have two Epson glasses that came with the 6010 and they work great. I also picked up two MonsterVision Max 3D RF kit/glasses for @ $107 total based on their sale and $10 off coupon. (Can't find the link on AVS that provided the info). These work as good or better. They're lighter and more comfortable.

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post #2735 of 3270 Old 06-04-2012, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Members should read the Wireless HDMI Special Report in the June 2012 of Home Theater magazine. For the I/O Gear unit tested, going through a wall resulted in audio dropouts. Further WHDI based HDMI gear won't sent high-rez audio unless its decoded into PCM.

Their wall isn't the same as my walls. This is a 'test it and try it in your environment' type product. Anything wireless is going to be subject to the surroundings it's being installed it.

It works perfect for my particular setup and will also work with the conference room needs. I don't think anyone is going to seriously consider using this for their primary HT setup. It's good for a 2nd TV in a different room, etc.
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post #2736 of 3270 Old 06-04-2012, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

I have two Epson glasses that came with the 6010 and they work great. I also picked up two MonsterVision Max 3D RF kit/glasses for @ $107 total based on their sale and $10 off coupon. (Can't find the link on AVS that provided the info). These work as good or better. They're lighter and more comfortable.

I like the MV3D's as well. during my critical testing, I found that they couldn't quite block the ghosting as well as the Epson's. This is on paused frames, intense A/B... it's not going to be obvious at all during regular viewing, it was that close.
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post #2737 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 04:49 AM
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The Epson glasses are hopeless to help any of the JVC ghosting though, right?
I do like the MV3D's. At that last sale it was a killer deal.

My 3D Gaming Experience (kind of a long post):

I was actually trying out some 3D gaming on the JVC (taboo I know), but it was just a Space SIM Game (X3: TC) and I was playing in NVIDIA converted forced 3D (not even native). The NVIDIA converted 3D will be FAR superior to any projector or devices ability to convert an image to 3D, because the NVIDIA convertor is using the raw 3D mapping data to do the conversion (and the video card is the only device with native access to this data). However, these same techniques obviously won't work with 2D Blurays since the encoding is not done using 3D rendered models. So this type of conversion really isn't much different than if a game were NATIVE 3D, but with one issue - see next paragraph down.

The ghosting is very mild in this game on the JVC believe it or not, but the problem is the game wasn't designed for 3D. When a game isn't designed for 3D, what happens is that the Z-order depth location of objects that were originally rendered with 2d models (like how mountains in some racing games are rendered as a back-drop 2d texture), well they aren't properly aligned even though the objects with 3D info are aligned. The converted games are still playable for the most part, but text for instance can be VERY distracting as it usually appears before all other objects. If a scene in a game does not have 2D models or fonts mixed in (and some do not), then it will convert the image to 3D flawlessly with NO error just as if it were native. The modders might have already fixed this problem for some games, even if they are not officially "3D compatible".

I'll probably actually enjoy 3D gaming a little, but since I'm not a "real" gamer I think I'll stick to slow-paced games just to enjoy the 3D graphics. One final point, as far as 720p/60hz vs 1080p/24hz, well obviously gaming is generally going to be better in 720p/60. Although some "less serious" games without a lot of motion may do ok in 1080p/24 for those not too sensitive to the side effects. The difference in resolution can be seen in 3D between 720p and 1080p, but it is a fairly minor difference most of the time because the anti-aliasing effect in 720p mode is so heavy when in 3D that things do not look blocky.

Gotta try an "Nvidia Compatible 3d" game next, maybe Dirt 3, maybe something else. That's gotta be neat driving in 3D. Or I can just go outside and take my real car for a spin, but there is no fun in that smile.gif


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post #2738 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 01:54 PM
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I'm having a tough time getting adjusted to the new site. I'm on dozen's of different forums, but this change is one of the more distracting models with ads all over the place.
Plus the excellent AVS Android app is gone, I used to read and post dozens of messages during breaks during the day. I understand they are switching to tap-a-talk, but this isn't an exact replacement for the dedicated Android app.
ah well, it is the summer, maybe I should get out more and spend less time on the forums. smile.gif
or better yet, watch some movies.

I BELIEVE YOU CAN GO TO YOUR PROFILE AND UNDER EDIT YOU CAN CHECK OFF THE ADS.
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post #2739 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I think you have to be a paid members to turn off the ads. I'm mainly missing the Android app, I'm not really a fan of tap-a-talk. The old AVS android app was my savior during long meetings.
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post #2740 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 02:32 PM
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Zombie, did you try going to My Profile/Edit User Preferences? At the bottom of the preferences is a box you can uncheck to get rid of ads, or at least for me...smile.gif

All of the mods and admins have been playing in the AVS Forum "sandbox" for the last month or so and TONS of bugs have been worked out, but I am sure that we have not caught all of them. I believe there is a place in the forum to voice your problems/complaints, though I don't have a link right now.

Edit: Here's the link:

http://www.avsforum.com/f/276/platform-launch-help-and-discussion

Sorry for the OT, but I will try to help people out where and when I can with the new forum.

For starters, I highly recommend changing your user preference to "view full column width" in order to make the best use of screen real estate. Also there is a place there to change the skin from the default black/blue/white to the more traditional AVS black...smile.gif
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post #2741 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 02:33 PM
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If you use Firefox you can download the adblockplus add-on. Bye Bye ads!
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post #2742 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I don't use Firefox that often, but I will now. I have noscript and adblock installed, it's definitely better.
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post #2743 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
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For starters, I highly recommend changing your user preference to "view full column width" in order to make the best use of screen real estate. Also there is a place there to change the skin from the default black/blue/white to the more traditional AVS black...smile.gif

I did that change, but I'm still getting thread listings that use 75% of the screen. The right 25% of the screen is blank except for useless box showing which users are online at the very top. Is this expected?

Oh, as for this thread, I wanted to point out that the Timescapes bluray is shipping from New Zealand so if you aren't near there... well... it might take a while.
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post #2744 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the heads up on Timescapes, I should have ordered it sooner. Please let us know how the BD looks vs. the DL
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post #2745 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 05:45 PM
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Zombie,

Have you tried any 3D games much, like racing or something just for the heck of it?
I ask because I wonder if any have pop-out effects or is it all inward depth?

I must say if people just want a wild 3D effect, that space game I was playing (X3: TC) was really incredible from a sense of depth.

I'm thinking the best 3D effects are in games instead of movies. There seems to be the consistency of depth that movies lack, probably because it's so easy to take a 3D render and make it 3D, it already is 3D. Although technically the same thing exists for animated films, but in animated films you have more complex camera angle switching that games don't have.


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post #2746 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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The only 3D game I tried was the racing game called 'GRID'. it's just the free demo that was available a few years ago when it was new. I had a wheel and it was a blast playing it in 3D on the Acer 5360 with the Nvidia 3D vision setup. It looked great, no ghosting at all.

I think I tried a 3D Xbox 360 game, it was some FPS but it looked so-so in SBS mode, it was too blurry for me.
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post #2747 of 3270 Old 06-06-2012, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Zombie,
Have you tried any 3D games much, like racing or something just for the heck of it?
I ask because I wonder if any have pop-out effects or is it all inward depth?
I must say if people just want a wild 3D effect, that space game I was playing (X3: TC) was really incredible from a sense of depth.
I'm thinking the best 3D effects are in games instead of movies. There seems to be the consistency of depth that movies lack, probably because it's so easy to take a 3D render and make it 3D, it already is 3D. Although technically the same thing exists for animated films, but in animated films you have more complex camera angle switching that games don't have.


The best 3d I have seen has been from games, but also the worst ghosting (by far!) on both my RS40 and RS45. Games I have tried out are Call of Duty (Black Ops I think?), Avatar the game, God of War Chains of Olympus, God of War Ghost of Sparta, Super Stardust, Wipeout HD, Motorstorm Pacific Rift and there was one other one that is slipping my mind. All had very impressive 3d with Avatar being the most intense/impressive, but the ghosting in all of them (some worse than others) besides Super Stardust HD was horrible to one degree or another. Ironically, Super Stardust was one of the more impressive 3d titles I thought with minimal ghosting, go figure. Overall due to the horrendous ghosting, I dont feel 3d gaming on the JVCs is even worth it frown.gif Of course this is very much a YMMV type of thing, but man this is where these JVC projectors really suck (to put it bluntly) as far as 3d. Movies are bad enough, but games are ruined IMO from the excessive crosstalk in general. Throw in the flicker and my 3d use overall has been VERY minimal with movies and like I mentioned, games are not even worth playing in 3d due mainly to ghosting (the detail/resolution loss is no good either, but for me the ghosting is far worse of an issue) the last 4 months.

As far as pop out, I know there have been various pop out moments in some of the games I have played. Looking down the scope in Black Ops had a bit of pop out. Avatar had moments where stuff would pop out of the screen such as bushes. I know there were some moments in Motorstorm as well.

2d gaming is a different story and I have had a blast there. I would like to see the lag time reduced next round which probably wont happen just for peace of mind (cant say I have really noticed an issue.........I thought I did when SSX first hit, but that ended up being the way the animation works in this game), but that is my only small complaint. I have been HOOKED on SSX for the past 3 months. I have never even come close to playing a game that long, but man this game is a blast on the big screen IMO. cool.gif

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #2748 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 06:11 AM
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I haven't decided if I want to get into 3D gaming yet, I need to try it on a DLP and see if I like it. I might find some games neat to play. A Sim City type game might be neat in 3D to watch a hurricane destroy your city or something... 3D Gaming is very tiresome on the JVC for sure.

The only games I really played in the past 5 years were about 4-5 games. Dirt 2 a few times, Skyrim, Dragon Age, X3:TC, and a few others.
X3: TC is interesting because it is pure BLACK dark space the entire game, so it needs such high native on/off, that it is going to look pretty milky on any DLP other than maybe a high-end Runco or an Optoma hd8600 or something.

I agree about the ghosting for 3d gaming on the JVC. Originally, when I tried the game I was playing (X3:TC), well it wasn't bad before I installed the 3D-Mod-Fix, because before the MOD the text wasn't dimensional. After the mod-fix, there was inconsistent ghosting. This tells me the problem with the JVC is they improperly designed the 3D convergence/parallax and wasn't able to make it multi-field-depth balanced. If you adjust parallax it can help for one point of field depth, but not others. Now there could be a reason it's improperly designed (limitation in the projector design itself), but I have a feeling the ghosting could be less even with 120hz panels if they made a more sophisticated parallax system that better compensated across all field of depth points.

Maybe I will get another projector soon to try 3D gaming on, haven't decided.


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post #2749 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 06:16 AM
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Thanks, I don't use Firefox that often, but I will now. I have noscript and adblock installed, it's definitely better.
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I did that change, but I'm still getting thread listings that use 75% of the screen. The right 25% of the screen is blank except for useless box showing which users are online at the very top. Is this expected?
Oh, as for this thread, I wanted to point out that the Timescapes bluray is shipping from New Zealand so if you aren't near there... well... it might take a while.

Get the "Element Hider Helper" for ABP and you can get rid of the entire right hand "sidebar" all together.

I placed my order for Timescapes last week so I'm hoping for the end of the month, lol.

Bill
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post #2750 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 12:18 PM
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Just received "TimeScapes" today. This is amazing reference material. Great to try using the Darby Darblett on demo mode.
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post #2751 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Just received "TimeScapes" today. This is amazing reference material. Great to try using the Darby Darblett on demo mode.

How long is it? I have to ask, does it get boring at all? I know it's pure eye candy, but I've seen so many of the slow pan / time lapse videos on VIMEO over the years. At least when I show Art of Flight to visitors, there's music, action, etc.

I'm still getting a copy, just curious though.
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post #2752 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 02:09 PM
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I did that change, but I'm still getting thread listings that use 75% of the screen. The right 25% of the screen is blank except for useless box showing which users are online at the very top. Is this expected?
Oh, as for this thread, I wanted to point out that the Timescapes bluray is shipping from New Zealand so if you aren't near there... well... it might take a while.

Correction! I must have read something wrong... It arrived today from San Diego.

Unfortunately I'm redoing my screen/HW30 setup so it's all taken down! frown.gif
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post #2753 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 02:12 PM
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How long is it? I have to ask, does it get boring at all? I know it's pure eye candy, but I've seen so many of the slow pan / time lapse videos on VIMEO over the years. At least when I show Art of Flight to visitors, there's music, action, etc.
I'm still getting a copy, just curious though.

About 40 minutes of goodness with 7 minutes of credits.

I found the photography/video quite entertaining because of the artistic nature and quality images. Sure, I wouldn't sit down and watch it over and over... but I'd certainly toss it in now and then to look at it or show people.
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post #2754 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 04:05 PM
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Can someone post a pic comparing the rs45 and the W7000 in a dark scifi type scene to compare?
Can FI and the DI be used on the w7000 while in 3D?
Has anyone noticed any differences in ghosting on the w7000 with different glasses or do all the glasses pretty much eliminate ghosting on the projector?
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post #2755 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 04:24 PM
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Just received "TimeScapes" today. This is amazing reference material. Great to try using the Darby Darblett on demo mode.

Mine showed up today too. I told my wife it shipped from Cali and not New Zealand and she wanted the $0.26 exchange rate charge back, lol.

Bill
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post #2756 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Can someone post a pic comparing the rs45 and the W7000 in a dark scifi type scene to compare?
Can FI and the DI be used on the w7000 while in 3D?
Has anyone noticed any differences in ghosting on the w7000 with different glasses or do all the glasses pretty much eliminate ghosting on the projector?

There is a problem with trying to do this - even my expensive DSL-R cameras don't have anywhere near the dynamic range of our eyes. In addition, Most LCD panels in laptop and desktop displays are only 1000:1 contrast ratio, so it's nearly impossible to accurately show a comparison between both projectors.

I can tell you what my eyes are seeing though, it's not really a fair comparison. We're taking one of the best black level performers and comparing it to the typical DLP. Even the best under 10k DLP's still can't hang with the JVC's in this regard (primarily dark sci-fi - a.k.a The underworld series'.). There are things that can help like running eco lamp (the W7000 is brighter than than the JVC ~900 vs. 1500 D65 lumens) and also an ND2 or ND4 filter.

The W7000's primary strength is bright 2D, good motion in sports/F1 racing and of course it's ability for flawless 3D performance. It's 3D ability sends the JVC back to the drawing board.

It does have FI and DI in 3D mode. All the 3D glasses I posted in the shootout basically perform the same.. you cannot see ghosting on this projector with any of the glasses. The main difference it their ability to completely block the red flash (the signal that triggers the DLP Link glasses). The Optoma ZD201's are the best right now, and just a bit over $100 per set of glasses.
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post #2757 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 06:03 PM
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LCD monitors and TV's (not projectors) actually have high intrascene contrast, but Plasmas have the highest I believe. When you take a picture you are only capturing intrascene contrast, not Native On/Off contrast (unless you take 2 separate pictures, one full white, one black). A good LCD will often beat a projector in intrascene contrast in many shots. Most intrascene contrast in images are going to be far below 1000:1. Even a $200 LCD monitor can beat a JVC in some intrascene contrast shots. Intrascene contrast is just the difference between the brightest and darkest pixel on the entire image at the same time. The weakness of LCD monitors is the dynamic range to transition from bright to dark scenes in video, but decent LCD monitors do not have a problem showing high contrast shots in a dark scene for instance.

You can actually measure the intrascene contrast of a digital image by the bit-map difference between the RGB value of the brightest and darkest pixel. The problem is the source, because you'd need really high-end camera equipment to equalize it out and you'd need to be an expert at photography as related to equalizing contrast if you were to try to take two separate pictures. There are meters and graphs on high-end cameras to help show you these ranges (and some photographers have external devices to tell them stuff). I don't know much about super high-end cameras, just know those kind of things exist.

That said, it is ONLY possible to show generic differences in contrast if the images are taken carefully enough and the differences are exaggerated in post-editing, but the differences will not be the same as they appear in real life (Even though it can show A difference). The reason the differences will not appear the same is because your monitor is lit from behind and will be calibrated differently, and in a different environment. So everyone's displays are different, so it's impossible to get any accurate representation.


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post #2758 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 06:18 PM
 
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post #2759 of 3270 Old 06-07-2012, 06:58 PM
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BTW, Native On/Off contrast does not translate the same way on TV's and monitors for giving us a good idea of the intrascene contrast capabilities in dark scenes as it does with projectors (on rear projection TV's it would be a closer indicator). It is still an indicator, it is just not the SAME level of indicator. Flat Panel TV's and monitors with much lower on/off contrast can still have relatively high intrascene contrast in dark scenes (intrascene contrast in starfields for instance), because the lighting source and light rejection and so many other factors work completely differently. Also smaller devices will get a boost in the appearance of higher intrascene contrast simply because there is less light coming from the screen to your eyes in a smaller fashion. So it's quite a complicated thing to judge.

I'm not sure if my LCD monitor can actually beat the JVC RS-45/55 in a starfield, but it is going to do much better than say a DLP projector can do it. When is the last time you thought "my LCD monitor looks washed out in dark scenes" just like a DLP projector...


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #2760 of 3270 Old 06-08-2012, 01:10 PM
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I have two Epson glasses that came with the 6010 and they work great. I also picked up two MonsterVision Max 3D RF kit/glasses for @ $107 total based on their sale and $10 off coupon. (Can't find the link on AVS that provided the info). These work as good or better. They're lighter and more comfortable.
Do the MonsterVision provide a transmitter with each pair of glasses?

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