ANSI Contrast Ratio of VW95 / RS55(X70) - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

And this showes what?

Washout properties + differences between screens in a batcave.
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post #272 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 08:49 AM
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I don't know what to say Mark. I see what I see but I didn't, and don't plan on, measuring ANSI. Nothing else changed. The projectors are at the exact same spot, the room hasn't changed, nor has the screen, or anything else other than the projector. Both projectors were calibrated and running similar w/gamma. The fact is the x55 is rated at 50K:1 on/off and the RS55 is rated at 80K:1 yet the "lowly" x55 wins. Now maybe this is just with my two particular projectors....However, I don't agree that ANSI is meaningless but who am I to argue with you and your experience. So I won't argue but I also won't agree with you (I guess I'm pigheaded). But to be clear I do think there is an upper limit where ANSI becomes irrelevant but I suspect that is very room (and setup) dependent.

I don't think any of us can base our purchase decision on an ANSI spec because it isn't spec'd....cool.gif

EDIT: If ANSI doesn't matter why did JVC improve their eshift glass to improve ANSI?

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post #273 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

Washout properties + differences between screens in a batcave.

No, it does not, you can not show this with screenshots as you can easily get a projector with very bad on/off and ANSI to look just the same on a screenshot.

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post #274 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 09:24 AM
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I think ANSI does matter, but no-one can say how much cause hard to quantify by eyes due to impossible meter errors and mix of scenes, so I just don't think anyone can measure it. Even if you measure just the room by measuring a pattern on a TV, means jack squat because the pattern pollutes the meter. You really do need a specialized tube-like device that balances the light so the meter can get a real reading. It needs to have a special geometrical shape and have some type of "light catching / absorption / releasing" properties, something I was not able to make.

In order to measure the ANSI between two different PJ's, the best you can do is eliminate all variables Reviewers don't do this, there numbers are all wrong. Even if they did, they are still not completely accurate.

There are people arguing it does matter, people arguing it doesn't, there are really only 2 choices, 1) A/B + Quantify + Measure, or 2) A/B Quantify with eyes + Do not measure.

IMHO, pretty much # 2 is just as good as # 1


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post #275 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

No, it does not, you can not show this with screenshots as you can easily get a projector with very bad on/off and ANSI to look just the same on a screenshot.

My screenshots represent as close as possible to what i see on screen in my room.
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post #276 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 09:58 AM
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On my iMac I can barly see the black near the white in your pictures so if my screen represents what you see in your HT you have a projector of another world with a perfect blacklevel and infinite on/off and ANSI contrast.smile.gif

And I have seen the X90 and it does not look this way in any HT!

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post #277 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I think ANSI does matter, but no-one can say how much cause hard to quantify by eyes due to impossible meter errors and mix of scenes, so I just don't think anyone can measure it. Even if you measure just the room by measuring a pattern on a TV, means jack squat because the pattern pollutes the meter. You really do need a specialized tube-like device that balances the light so the meter can get a real reading. It needs to have a special geometrical shape and have some type of "light catching / absorption / releasing" properties, something I was not able to make.
In order to measure the ANSI between two different PJ's, the best you can do is eliminate all variables Reviewers don't do this, there numbers are all wrong. Even if they did, they are still not completely accurate.
There are people arguing it does matter, people arguing it doesn't, there are really only 2 choices, 1) A/B + Quantify + Measure, or 2) A/B Quantify with eyes + Do not measure.
IMHO, pretty much # 2 is just as good as # 1

Then we agree that ANSI contrast matters.smile.gif

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post #278 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 10:12 AM
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We all agree that it matters. Where we don't agree is how much it matters based on its quantifiable value. It is one totally artificial test and . Coderguy Contrast or Joe Kane Contrast or Haflich contrast could all be a lot more relevant to determining better PQ than ANSI.

Re JVC. They didn't improve anything. There eshift supplier did and the changes were to to go with a flatter element. sweeter spot geometrically and less loss through the element. Perhaps the ANSI went up in the process but I doubt the cjhanges were to improve ANSI JVC schtick is to push natine on off as the end all. Any dynamic on off is a no no even though their machines would be better with it. Nope. they want even offer it as a switcheable consumer choice. they do not want you to I guess hurt yourself. I dunno.

There would never ever say we raised ANSI CR this year from x to y. Why. because that would allow others to compete against their lower ANSI numbers. OIne has st to stick to who brought you to the dance. high native on/off.

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post #279 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

On my iMac I can barly see the black near the white in your pictures so if my screen represents what you see in your HT you have a projector of another world with a perfect blacklevel and infinite on/off and ANSI contrast.smile.gif
And I have seen the X90 and it does not look this way in any HT!

Wack up your brightness - top screen is the brightest of the 2 and both are lighter blacks than the screen boarders. Theres even a purple cast in the lower white screen.smile.gif
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post #280 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 10:25 AM
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Wack up your brightness - top screen is the brightest of the 2 and both are lighter blacks than the screen boarders. Theres even a purple cast in the lower white screen.smile.gif

My brightness is set perfect and I see a picture that does not represent what the X90 is capable of doing. And I don´t think screenshots is a good way to show off a projector as all projectors can be made look incredible and out of this world and has nothing to do what you can see on screen.

And I can see the Black Diamond screen is not neutral and has a purple cast and I have tested the Black Diamond screens in my HT (both 1.4 and 0.8) and I would never concider using them in my HT when I think both screens was no good. I remember them to be very blue(can easily be adjusted when calibrated) and had alot of sparkle and hostpotting (1.4 more than the 0.8) and many other artifacts to not want to buy one of them.

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post #281 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 10:26 AM
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Fair enough...we're all happy 2 days into this new year..... smile.gif

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post #282 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

Wack up your brightness - top screen is the brightest of the 2 and both are lighter blacks than the screen boarders. Theres even a purple cast in the lower white screen.smile.gif
Humm,
I'm running with a calibrated monitor but what I see is a fairly neutral (slightly bluish) lower screen and a ugly green cast on the upper screen. I guess I'm confused why you say the G=1.2 screen is brighter than the G=1.4 screen. It should be the other way around - no? Did you leave the projector settings alone and did you use the same exact MANUAL exposure settings (including WB) on your camera? I tend to agree with Andreas that it's extremely difficult to show real projector performance with screen shots. Especially with most low end cameras.

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post #283 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 10:39 AM
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My brightness is set perfect and I see a picture that does not represent what the X90 is capable of doing. And I don´t think screenshots is a good way to show off a projector as all projectors can be made look incredible and out of this world and has nothing to do what you can see on screen.
And I can see the Black Diamond screen is not neutral and has a purple cast and I have tested the Black Diamond screens in my HT (both 1.4 and 0.8) and I would never concider using them in my HT when I think both screens was no good. I remember them to be very blue(can easily be adjusted when calibrated) and had alot of sparkle and hostpotting (1.4 more than the 0.8) and many other artifacts to not want to buy one of them.

In a room like yours an ambient rejection screen would have been the wrong choice.
Next time you visit the UK drop me a PM and you can see for yourself how close my screenshots are to the real thing (Batcave Black devore + this http://www.minervacrafts.com/viscosevelvet-plush-pile-black-viscose-velvet-designer-dress-fabric-per-metre.html ) I have nothing to gain i don¬t sell anything.
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post #284 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Humm,
I'm running with a calibrated monitor but what I see is a fairly neutral (slightly bluish) lower screen and a ugly green cast on the upper screen. I guess I'm confused why you say the G=1.2 screen is brighter than the G=1.4 screen. It should be the other way around - no? Did you leave the projector settings alone and did you use the same exact MANUAL exposure settings (including WB) on your camera? I tend to agree with Andreas that it's extremely difficult to show real projector performance with screen shots. Especially with most low end cameras.

Yes other way top darker:) BD screen is 2 feet behind otherscreen so image projected on both at the same time - 1 pic shows both screens.
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post #285 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 10:58 AM
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In a room like yours an ambient rejection screen would have been the wrong choice.
Next time you visit the UK drop me a PM and you can see for yourself how close my screenshots are to the real thing (Batcave Black devour ) I have nothing to gain i don¬t sell anything.

I know it is not a good chise in a batcave, but the BD screen is something I would ever buy. I have a batcave as you can see in my pictures and you say you have a batcave and it works perfectly in your room and not in mine??

The drawbacks of the BD screens has nothing to do with my room and is the weaknesses these screens have. The DNP Supernova 08-85 on the other hand is nearly perfect compared to the BD screens, and I have tested it in my HT but it gave me almost nothing extra compared to my own screen so I don´t want to spend any money on it. If I had a HT with white walls and celing on the other hand I would love the DNP Supernova.

And you have tried to show off how wonderful your X90 is in the Sony VW1000 tread and you have shown me nothing I want to see. I have seen all the JVC´s the last years in my own HT and have no desire to see them in another batcave, they are very good projectors, but I will keep my VW1000 for the moment.

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post #286 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 11:19 AM
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I know it is not the a good chise in a batcave, but the BD screen is not something I would ever buy. I have a batcave as you can see in my pictures and you say you have a batcave and it works perfectly in your room and not in mine??
The drawbacks of the BD screens has nothing to do with my room and is the weaknesses these screens have. The DNP Supernova 08-85 on the other hand is nearly perfect compared to the BD screens, and I have tested it in my HT but it gave me almost nothing extra compared to my own screen so I don´t want to spend any money on it. If I had a HT with white walls and celing on the other hand I would love the DNP Supernova.
And you have tried to show off how wonderful your X90 is in the Sony VW1000 tread and you have shown me nothing I want to see. I have seen all the JVC´s the last years in my own HT and have no desire to see them in another batcave, they are very good projectors, but I will keep my VW1000 for the moment.

I had the 1st BD screen in the UK nothing else about at the time i got it - i use it in daylight mainly in the summer and if i was buying today DNP would also be my choice.

Shock Horror if i was buying a Projector today a VW-1000 would not be my 1st choice...
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post #287 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 11:29 AM
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Have you seen the VW1000? And what would be you first choice?

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post #288 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 11:43 AM
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Have you seen the VW1000? And what would be you first choice?

Get baxk on track as AVForum calibrators have said in their batcave there is no differences in picture quality (calibrated on 3m screen)
between an X70 X75 or VW-1000 but when they saw an X90 they were blown away with the clarity.
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Get baxk on track as AVForum calibrators have said in their batcave there is no differences in picture quality (calibrated on 3m screen)
between an X70 X75 or VW-1000 but when they saw an X90 they were blown away with the clarity.

This is ********, I have seen the JVC X70( also seen the X90 but not side by side with my VW1000) side by side with the VW1000 and it was no contest as the VW1000 blew the X70 away in every way and the X90 is no better than the X70. But this has nothing to do with this tread as most of the other comments, and I dont´t want ot start a discussion with you about your X90 and my VW1000.cool.gif

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post #290 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 11:54 AM
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No need to shoot the messanger here`s the link...
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18198431&postcount=9
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post #291 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I know it is not a good chise in a batcave, but the BD screen is something I would ever buy. I have a batcave as you can see in my pictures and you say you have a batcave and it works perfectly in your room and not in mine??
The drawbacks of the BD screens has nothing to do with my room and is the weaknesses these screens have. The DNP Supernova 08-85 on the other hand is nearly perfect compared to the BD screens, and I have tested it in my HT but it gave me almost nothing extra compared to my own screen so I don´t want to spend any money on it. If I had a HT with white walls and celing on the other hand I would love the DNP Supernova.
And you have tried to show off how wonderful your X90 is in the Sony VW1000 tread and you have shown me nothing I want to see. I have seen all the JVC´s the last years in my own HT and have no desire to see them in another batcave, they are very good projectors, but I will keep my VW1000 for the moment.

Nothing a can of white paint can't fix up so you can justify a super nova screen.

But I am glad you boys are talking screens again and screen shots.

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post #292 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 12:27 PM
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No need to shoot the messanger here`s the link...
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18198431&postcount=9

If you read the comments in the VW1000 tread I comment in this tread and and Phil Hinton moderates his view on the VW1000 and admits it is better than the X70.smile.gif

And the best thing is to see it with your own eyes and the best thing is to compare your X90 side by side the VW1000 in you own HT.

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post #293 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 01:50 PM
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Keep in mind that the panels don't actually form an image. The panels basically reflect all light and if you were too look at it no image would be apparent. What the panels do is rotate the polarization of light. The actual image is formed when the light passes thru a polarizing element. The amount of light that passes thru the polarizing element is dependent on the amount of rotation that the panel imposes on it. It's rather incredible when you think about it because the polarizer is acting upon all 2 million plus pixels in varying amounts depending on how much polarization rotation the panels impose. In the case of On/Off all 2 million pixels have the same amount of rotation and the polarizer is either attenuating (blocking) all of the light or passing all of the light. With ANSI the polarizer is both blocking light and passing light depending on which area you look at. The polarizer is not perfect though and as such it does not pass 100% of the light - some light is reflected so some light scatter happens and that scatter is what causes ANSI to degrade.
The JVC eShift is accomplished by adding another optical element to the path (after the polarizer) and like any piece of glass it causes some light scatter (no optical element passes 100% of the light and there is always some light that reflects back which is why most camera lenses have multi-coatings to increase the light transmission thru the element and reduce reflections). This added eshift element is responsible for further degrading ANSI because of the added reflections it introduces. If I understand correctly this years JVC's use a better eshift element which reduces scatter and therefore improves ANSI as compared to last years models.

Thank you Geof.....nice explanation.....think they need to design a chip where each pixel is lower or higher than its neighbour with the lower pixels having dark material on it's walls!!

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I'm a big JVC fan, but having recently seen the VW1000ES I think JVC have some catching up to do. I don't know (or care) if it's ANSI contrast/intrascene contrast/on-off contrast but I was thinking about selling both my hobby cars (and my JVC X35 and HD350) to buy one of these projectors on my way home after the demo. cool.gif

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post #295 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 02:11 PM
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ANSI is important no doubt, but as Mark H says by how much, what is the maximum required based on the human eyes capabilities.

Modified Test:

Two identical plasmas side by side

one displaying a full white field at a specific brightness setting.

the other same brightness setting displaying a full black field....keep dropping the brightness observing for a deeper black result or increase brightness if it gets no deeper....back and forth till the deepest level is found.

All above measurements are by eye. Once the brightest and darkest levels are found, take the meter measurements, create a balck velvet tent over each when taking the meter measurements.

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post #296 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 02:18 PM
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I'm a big JVC fan, but having recently seen the VW1000ES I think JVC have some catching up to do. I don't know (or care) if it's ANSI contrast/intrascene contrast/on-off contrast but I w
as thinking about selling both my hobby cars (and my JVC X35 and HD350) to buy one of these projectors on my way home after the demo. cool.gif

Could it have been the aditional brightness that seduced you?......Brightness can be quite the seducer......as intrascene contrast and black level improves by virtue of the human eyes pupil constriction.

IMO brightness EQing is very important when compariing projectors to take the human Iris position out of the equation....... smile.gif

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post #297 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 02:40 PM
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No HJ, the brightness if anything was lower than the JVCs I saw as the screen the VW1000ES was on was 4 metres wide instead of 3 metres for the JVCs. The rooms were all very good, in fact the X35 was in a completely black specially built dedicated room. The JVCs just have a slight haze on the picture (especially the X55 I saw as it was zoomed near maximum so at the least contrast end of the projector). I love my X35, but I'm not under any illusions that the VW1000ES is the one to aim for should I ever be in the position to spend that much on a projector.

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post #298 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 03:10 PM
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No HJ, the brightness if anything was lower than the JVCs I saw as the screen the VW1000ES was on was 4 metres wide instead of 3 metres for the JVCs. The rooms were all very good, in fact the X35 was in a completely black specially built dedicated room. The JVCs just have a slight haze on the picture (especially the X55 I saw as it was zoomed near maximum so at the least contrast end of the projector). I love my X35, but I'm not under any illusions that the VW1000ES is the one to aim for should I ever be in the position to spend that much on a projector.

Yeah...difficuilt to compair at times, source material, processing, different screen materials/gains....viewing ratios...etc.....darn! smile.gif

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post #299 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 03:12 PM
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Brightness can really fool people who should not be offering reviewish type comments.They get blinded by the light and it becomes the end all. the brighter the better, nothing else counts, and besides they see no degradation of anything elso.

This gets me back once again, publish a high on off, make the screen huge. and make it a high gain screen so you will have enough light from these peanut whistle projectors and most people will be in bliss. They are clueless. Screen material is a very very very important determinative and one must be willing to give up brightness to gain other things brightness freaks have no clue about.

I changed from a Studeotec1.3 gain to a 1.0 gain. My picture got dimmer, noticeably so in 3D, but in 2D the picture really improved. The screen material disappeared and the screem became a window without glass on which to view the scene. verdict to me, Studeotec 130 sucks if you can make your theater a black pit and live with a screen size that will not gain you any fame here like a 3 meter or 4 meter wide screen will.

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post #300 of 320 Old 01-02-2013, 03:45 PM
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Yeah, like I said in the VW1000ES owners thread the one I saw was on a low gain (1.0 or maybe 1.15) screen in a huge dark room. However, I didn't take my Lux meter along wink.gif so I don't know what the fL it was. wink.gif

At home I'm more scientific as I set my old HD350 up to give 12-14fL so when I got my X35 I made sure that the fL was as close to that as I could get. As it happens it was 1fL brighter even at minimum iris, but I think that was a level playing field...the picture still looks better on the X35 to the HD350 at near enough the same fL.

I once measured the ANSI contrast on my HD350 at the screen as 75:1 so I plan to use the same method and meter (and test pattern) to check the X35 in the same room. The exact values aren't important, just the percentage difference (if there is one). I'll report back what I find, but only for interest: I don't want to slip into a multipage argument about whether my method is the correct one. wink.gif Note this reading is in my room as it is, which is light walls and white ceiling. I did another test at the time with the HD350 and I put up a black sheet tent, covered the floor and sofas (they are light cream coloured) with dark throws. The measurement went up to 230:1. Again it was the same method, etc, so it's the percentage difference that is important and I made that about 300% improvement in ANSI contrast: For sure the picture looked way better even though the on/off hadn't changed.

Anyway, I have a feeling that the ANSI/intrascene/call it what you will performance has improved from my old HD350 to the new X35, but I'll see what my meter tells me.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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