ANSI Contrast Ratio of VW95 / RS55(X70) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It's ok to state an opinion, but I'm just saying you're overly sure of your opinion. Of course the higher ANSI and higher On/Off is better, never said it was not. The problem is NEITHER the Sony nor the JVC have higher on/off and ANSI. The Sony has higher ANSI, the JVC has higher native on/off. Which two matter more, for most people the higher on/off, but the problem is that the Sony has other positive attributes that distort the equation. So it's not a matter of evaluating just based on two factors, which causes problems in determining the "reason".


Actully, I think you have a little off the same "problem" wink.gif ( nicely thought ) because you very oft point out that the on /off Cr numbers are the most importent thing to look at !!? and at same time demeans / disclaims ANSI CR measurements to be of any significance.

coderguy, I do respect your opion and your knowledge smile.gif, but some off you staments is a little theoretical and based off of what you have read in some test and not personally seen and without knowing Andreas, I have to respect, that he speaks from his own personal experience with the specific projektorere (not that it automatically makes him an expert, but it gives as his opinion a clear credibility) and he, like you, have owned / seen / tested a lot of different projektorere in a very nice and quality optimized home theater and read out from his records, most interests in order to get the best image quality, regardless of brand or price.

BTW. have you seen the X70, 95ES and the mighty 1000 ? ( both Andreas and I have wink.gif )

Personally, I think, and I think actually that you both agree that it is a matter of looking at all the measurements, remember to relate the numbers in to reality and then weights the default tray priority ones for your own needs and circumstances - right ?

Dont we just love our hobby, film and home theater´s biggrin.gif

Happy new year to all in here

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post #92 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

The HW50 measured 350:1 at the lens and the new JVC X55(name here in Europe) measured 200:1 (e-shift kills ANSI as last years x30 with no e-shift measured 300:1).

Do you recall who measured the HW50 and RS4810/X55? The claim was that the new e-shift element was supposed to increase ANSI this year. In a direct A/B post calibration, I thought the HW50 had more pop than the RS4810, but not certain what this was attributed to.
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post #93 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post


I though you had it for the same reason as I do. Providing a home for wayward bats. Dont we all that biggrin.gif..... ..I like the bats anyway



You mean my bat gave imporoves the picture, who ever woulda thunk. Tthanks for sharing. smile.gif
No, but it dosnt make the picture a lot worse - do it ? Mark, did you ever have a woman..ehh, sorry, a projector wink.gif in a completly white room ? eek.gifwink.gif



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post #94 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 09:36 AM
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I do not think that is right. ANSI contrast is a rather artificial test of a certain group of on off pixels on a screen. The on white squares and off black squares. The number would change if you went to 19 squares or whatever. I could give a rats ass about ANSI. Correllating it to what you actually see in real life is next to impossible because reported ANSIs vary so much. Someones 125 may mean a much better picture than one were you measured 300. I have owned DLP and reflective LCD machines. I really don't care about the technology of the chip of the ANSI measurements or even the on off. I want the best overall picture I can get for the money.

Then I watch. Not ramps, not whether 80% this is more noticeable than 30% that and then spend time arguing whether this means that or whether it should be called who or Harry.

Reading this discussion reinforces my opinion that most don't know what ANSI really means or its affect on PQ. Even the experts here are bickering. I suppose relative ANSI is better than having no measurement and it keeps you guys off the street and out of the bat cave..

My message. Watch the movie and enjoy it.

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post #95 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 09:37 AM
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Thank you, I felt like I was drowning. I'm out of this argument now, I always get dragged into it because I am a fool for drag-queens.


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post #96 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Actully, I think you have a little off the same "problem" wink.gif ( nicely thought ) because you very oft point out that the on /off Cr numbers are the most importent thing to look at !!?

Nope, my argument is standard and accepted by this forum. Only because Native On/Off is less subjective. As Mark noted, ANSI is nearly a total BS measurement (not total, but nearly), but native on/off is not.
They both matter, but the problem is the way the ANSI test correlates to the viewer's eyes is too subjective in viewing test complexities and hard to determine how much, whereas Native on/off (or even dynamic on/off) are easier to determine in viewing tests as to how much it matters. So I'd rather evaluate all the other attributes of a projector (on/off, sharpness, motion, pixel density, 4k vs 2k), then just evaluate some goofed up ANSI contrast measurement that no-one can measure correctly (and yes even experts cannot measure correctly), because everyone's room is different and translating that NEAR lens measurement to someone else's NEAR screen measurement (or screen to screen) is virtually impossible even if the expert did measure ANSI contrast correctly.

Native on/off is not really affected by the room (perceptually yes, but not technically or in a measurement without uneven backwash or hotspotting). So that is why Native on/off matters and ANSI matters less, not only is Native easier to measure, but it is easier to see differences in the image in varying room conditions.


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The ANSI contrast test pattern is only a pattern, but it defines how the projector defines the difference between black and white in the engine. This will then again define the intrascene contrast or simultanious contrast the projector can produse in a mixed scene, this is why I say that ANSI contrast and intrascene contrast is the same. And if you don´t understand that you don`want to know... On/off contrast only defines how black and how white and the difference between them a projector can produse and has nothing to do with intrascene contrast, and this is well known by people who knows anything about calibration of TV and projectors.

And I have the same opinion as Mark, I only want the best picture my budget will give me and i normally don´t give a rats ass about mesurements and numbers. But when I read what coderguy is writing about ANSI I know he is wrong and I can not help to say against him. This is a discission I know I am right, but I know I can not win and I will try to not post any more in this tread.smile.gif

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post #98 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Do you recall who measured the HW50 and RS4810/X55? The claim was that the new e-shift element was supposed to increase ANSI this year. In a direct A/B post calibration, I thought the HW50 had more pop than the RS4810, but not certain what this was attributed to.

This is measured by Gorm Sørensen from Noway, a very professional calibrator with top of the line equipment and he calibrates a couple og hundred projectors each year.

E-shift 2 does not increase ANSI contras it decreases it by alot.

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post #99 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 10:17 AM
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Andreas21
your HT looks awesome

Thank you!smile.gif

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post #100 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Do you recall who measured the HW50 and RS4810/X55? The claim was that the new e-shift element was supposed to increase ANSI this year. In a direct A/B post calibration, I thought the HW50 had more pop than the RS4810, but not certain what this was attributed to.
Manni measured ANSI on this years X55 and said it was significantly improved over last years RS55. I don't have his numbers readily available but I trust his judgement.

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post #101 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

The ANSI contrast test pattern is only a pattern, but it defines how the projector defines the difference between black and white in the engine. This will then again define the intrascene contrast or simultanious contrast the projector can produse in a mixed scene, this is why I say than ANSI contrast and intrascene contrast is the same.
And I have the same opinion as Mark, I only want the best picture my budget will give me and i normally don´t give a rats ass about mesurements and numbers. But when I read what coderguy is writing about ANSI I know he is wrong and I can not help to say against him. This is a discission I know I am right, but I know I can not win and I will try to not post any more in this tread.smile.gif

Mark clearly noted that the if you move the points of the test around or add more points, it changes the intrascene contrast and that ANSI is not representative simultaneous contrast in varying patterns. It only defines how it produces contrast in a mixed scene on a checkerboard pattern, otherwise starfields that had 100 IRE pixels would look better on a DLP than on an LCOS, and they don't even if stars are 100 IRE and the black absolute black, the JVC will beat a DLP in this starfield. This is because ANSI is too much of an extreme measurement that mostly determines how much it matters in a bright scene that is CLOSEST to a checkerboard like pattern.

Nice politician like technique to try to turn it around, but it doesn't change that simultaneous contrast is not determined solely by ANSI, and is absolutely not the same thing. Simultaneous contrast can measure the contrast in ANY scene, not just a single checkerboard pattern, even a scene that has no absolute black and whites. Display devices do not produce exactly the same level of contrast from black and white in varying pictures when you add/subtract the amounts of abs white and abs black EVEN when there is high ANSI contrast. You did say it is the same thing.


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post #102 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Nope, my argument is standard and accepted by this forum. Only because Native On/Off is less subjective. As Mark noted, ANSI is nearly a total BS measurement (not total, but nearly), but native on/off is not.
They both matter, but the problem is the way the ANSI test correlates to the viewer's eyes is too subjective in viewing test complexities and hard to determine how much, whereas Native on/off (or even dynamic on/off) are easier to determine in viewing tests as to how much it matters. So I'd rather evaluate all the other attributes of a projector (on/off, sharpness, motion, pixel density, 4k vs 2k), then just evaluate some goofed up ANSI contrast measurement that no-one can measure correctly (and yes even experts cannot measure correctly), because everyone's room is different and translating that NEAR lens measurement to someone else's NEAR screen measurement (or screen to screen) is virtually impossible even if the expert did measure ANSI contrast correctly.
Native on/off is not really affected by the room (perceptually yes, but not technically or in a measurement without uneven backwash or hotspotting). So that is why Native on/off matters and ANSI matters less, not only is Native easier to measure, but it is easier to see differences in the image in varying room conditions.



Sorry, but that cant I agree on - but maybe I misunderstand what you are saying or we talk about different things . ( Im talking about, what you see with your eyes on the screen both with on/off and ANSI CR - because thats what matters, not test patterns measured inside a projector, no matter how "they" defined the way to measure it )

Or as Mark like it - its what I see on the screen, that matters most - the numbers is only a way too get a little sense of what the different projectors deliver - before you go out and see what the projectors do in reality ! ( and thats why so many people like Z10K tread - its a personal test, done in real live, with both measurments and opion on what his eyes see smile.gif )

both measurment ( ansi and on/off ) will get much worse, if your room and the lighting in the room is bad, ON THE SCREEN, where I allways see the picture wink.gif not in the projector itself !

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post #103 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

both measurment ( ansi and on/off ) will get much worse, if your room and the lighting in the room is bad, ON THE SCREEN, where I allways see the picture wink.gif not in the projector itself !
dj

We just had this discussion in Zombie's thread, please not again. Geeze I am weary of this same discussion, you are incorrect sir. This is not how light works. Light is additive in a native on/off test pattern unless the light hitting the screen hits it unevenly, the whites and blacks raise proportionately unless there is uneven reflections or hot spotting or something in the projector's display causing uneven native on/off.

You guys keep disagreeing with the science of contrast that is already known, how I can argue outside the laws of physics.
You must live in a parallel universe, because some of this stuff you guys are arguing is 1+1 = 5.

ANSI Contrast <> Simultaneous contrast, except in a checkerboard pattern, change the pattern and measurement changes (even if you keep white and black objects at abs white and abs black)
Native on/off measurements do not change because light is additive.

Laws of physics.

Edited:
Isn't it funny how Andreas21 says, "anyone that knows anything about projectors or calibration knows ANSI contrast and simultaneous contrast is the same". Clearly a soft-insult, but in all actuality there are some people in here that know some about calibration and keep getting this wrong, and I get sick of re-arguing it because they clearly have not taken the time in the forums to gain a complete understanding of contrast. And for the record, ANSI contrast is some indicator of POP in some cases, but it certainly isn't easy to determine like people in here think.


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post #104 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

We just had this discussion in Zombie's thread, please not again. Geeze I am weary of this same discussion, you are incorrect sir. This is not how light works. Light is additive in a native on/off test pattern unless the light hitting the screen hits it unevenly, the whites and blacks raise proportionately unless there is uneven reflections or hot spotting or something in the projector's display causing uneven native on/off.
You guys keep disagreeing with the science of contrast that is already known, how I can argue outside the laws of physics.
You must live in a parallel universe, because some of this stuff you guys are arguing is 1+1 = 5.
ANSI Contrast <> Simultaneous contrast, except in a checkerboard pattern, change the pattern and measurement changes (even if you keep white and black objects at abs white and abs black)
Native on/off measurements do not change because light is additive.
Laws of physics.
Edited:
Isn't it funny how Andreas21 says, "anyone that knows anything about projectors or calibration knows ANSI contrast and simultaneous contrast is the same". Clearly a soft-insult, but in all actuality there are some people in here that know some about calibration and keep getting this wrong, and I get sick of re-arguing it because they clearly have not taken the time in the forums to gain a complete understanding of contrast.

Your problem is cleary that you think you have the absolute truth and because you have read about it in different forums, what if what you have read is wrong. I got confirmation by my calibrator that ANSI contrast defines the intrascene contrast and I trust him alot more than I trust you as he is a professional calibrator and he has been doing this for many years and is one of the most experienced projector tester and calibrator in Scandinavia. So no matter what I say I can not convice you so I give up.smile.gif

Happy New Year!smile.gif

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post #105 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 11:22 AM
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Relax coderguy smile.gif ( and Andreas smile.gif ) there is a new year tomorrow


No discussion, we just chat and hawing fun together and maybe I learn something or if we are real lucky, both( sorry : all ) of us is getting smarter biggrin.gif

So you are saying, if I measure my on / off Cr off the screen, in my theater with the light off ( 0 ire and then 100 ire ) then I will get the same CR as if I measure it with the lights on ? ( with my screen at about 1.0 gain )

And why would the same 0 ire and 100 ire, (at the same time in the same picture), not raise proportionately even then ,when measured with first the light off and then light on ?


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post #106 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Your problem is cleary that you think you have the absolute truth and because you have read about it in different forums, what if what you have read is wrong. I got confirmation by my calibrator that ANSI contrast defines the intrascene contrast and I trust him alot more than I trust you as he is a professional calibrator and he has been doing this for many years and is one of the most experienced projector tester and calibrator in Scandinavia. So no matter what i say I can not convice you so i give up.smile.gif

No, my problem is that you've already been corrected by Mark H. who also has a good understanding of contrast. Yet, I have spent some time understanding the science behind this, and it irks me to take insults by people telling me ANSI = intrasceneCR in ALL cases (not just in a checkerboard). I have outlined why 1+1 =2 (the starfield example), and this is indisputable yet you continue to try to confuse lurkers (perhaps unintentionally) with incorrect information about what simultaneous contrast is.


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post #107 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 11:42 AM
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What you say about on/off contrast is not affected by the room is also totally wrong, but that is another story.smile.gif

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post #108 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 11:44 AM
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This is getting childish. Perceptually the image is affected by the room because the ANSI is lost.

A flash light beam will still go on/off even on a black wall, even if you take a less bright flash light beam and turn it on/off, well the differences between the less bright and brighter flash light are more noticeable in a darker room because of higher ANSI, but the overall floor and peak of both flash light beams are increased proportionately to the amount of light in the room. Absolutely a fact. This is what native on/off is, and the reason ANSI changes due to patterns is because the lens is projecting differing amounts of black/white in the image and from different angles through the panel and lens, which changes the contrast in the lens (not only on the screen). This process of the panel to the lens causes light pollution, light pollution is more contained in block patterns and less contained in small amounts of detail patterns, because of the way light refracts through the lens and what not. DLP's have many reasons why they have trouble with darker scenes, lens mfr assembly elements, lens coatings, dark chip processing and overall processing, and the DLP mirrors and mirror coatings. Whereas LCOS is much superior in on.off because of this, but that on/off also adds greatly to simultaneous CR in the measurement of scenes below certain IRE's. DLP is superior at containing light in block patterns because when enough of the mirrors are receiving a straight BEAM of 100 IRE light, it actually can focus a higher concentration of detailed light which allows the peak white to go higher and the amount of abs black to remain at a given point. Basically, DLP is hindered by the black floor much like a handicapped person, once the black floor in that image raises up enough, then DLP can concentrate enough light in even a detailed pattern greater than some other projectors, but it still cannot maintain the same level of contrast as it does in a checkerboard or any large block pattern as compared to a much smaller block pattern. This is only one of so many reasons that ANSI contrast is not the best measurement.


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On/off contrast measured on the screen is not affected by the room as long as the projector is the only lightsource and then it does not matter if the room is light or a batcave, but once you introduce another lightsource like a ledlamp on a receiver it affects the on/off measured on the screen. ANSI contrast on the other hand is affected by the room and that is why it is measured from the lens, and since it is affected by the room and a white room gives poor dynamics in a picture is why we have batcaves. Why do you have a batcave if simultaneous contrast(on/off is the basics) is not affected by the room?

I would say you are wrong in almost every point you are propagating in that you have a totally wrong impression of on/off contrast is the only thing affecting the intrascene/simultaneous contrast. I am a regular and veteran in antoher forum and I belive in me, and many others do the same.

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post #110 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 12:44 PM
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If you read what I write here I have said that intrascene contrast is a combination between on/off and ANSI(and of corse many other things) and you have said that ANSI has nothing to do with it. And now suddenly you say that ANSI is a part of it. I don´t understand?

And if anybody is hostile in this you are, and to call me clueless is not very nice!

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post #111 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 12:45 PM
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No, you said it was the SAME thing as ANSI contrast except for measuring absolute black, now you change the discussion. These AVS arguments always end up the same, why do I even bother. I'll take it in stride...


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Of course it is not the SOLE reason, and I specify this when I say that I think a combination between high ANSI and high on/off is very important to a great image including many other things. And I think ANSI and on/off is among the most important factors to a great picture.cool.gif

Here is what I wrote earlier, but I stand by that ANSI is the most important thing and the basics for intrascene contrast.

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post #113 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

The ANSI contrast test pattern is only a pattern, but it defines how the projector defines the difference between black and white in the engine. This will then again define the intrascene contrast or simultanious contrast the projector can produse in a mixed scene, this is why I say that ANSI contrast and intrascene contrast is the same.

...That is what started this, let's move on please, you win...
Yes, ANSI is important for intrascene contrast, but the amount of increased ANSI is very debateable to how much it can help two projectors that close.
I was called names for correcting your mistakes on interpreting contrast.


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post #114 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 01:03 PM
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Read the sentence one more time! When did I call you names?

If anybody is childish here it is you!

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post #115 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 01:07 PM
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I read it again, ok...
Simultaneous contrast is never the same as the ANSI measurement except on a checkerboard pattern, although if you tried enough patterns you may measure the same since LIGHTNING can actually strike the same place twice. ANSI and simultaneous contrast and intrascene contrast are not the same. Nor is ANSI contrast a proper linear indicator of a projector's contrast capability in bright scenes overall, some indicator yes, but it lacks purity due to calibration variables and intensity of IRE of each pixel on the screen.

Not names perse, but it got kind of nasty.


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post #116 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Only if the light hits the screen unevenly, you are wrong and don't understand light. Light is additive, freaking google it and stop arguing that 1+1=3.
I never said on/off is the only thing that affects simultaneous contrast, more words in my mouth. Simultaneous contrast is a combination of ANSI and on/off to some degree, but it is also independent due to block vs. detail patterns, and light angles, and lens elements, and a hundred other things in which no test pattern can capture all the variables.
I am leaving now, because you are hostile and clueless (a bad combination). I just gave a VERY detailed example of how contrast works, and you can say whatever you want, I can't stop someone from being harassing, so take care.


After reading all the posts here I must say that this is getting a bit ridiculous. To you coderguy what do you do for a living? and where you get your lessons from regarding this topic. How can you be so sure that what you say is right. I assume that this is your opinion. At least I hope so. You might be familiar with someone who actually know this. You can start with Andreas21 which I believe and know that he comes with carefully checked statements before he posts on the forum. Otherwise you may well continue this out this year, the more you write the further out on thin ice you get.


Have a happy new year everyone.
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post #117 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 01:15 PM
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Pure Comedy...

The Question is why a person created a new screen name 30 minutes ago and has 1 post in this forum (and now has multiple screen names), and then challenges me as if they are moderator, in the same sentence that they ask what I do for a living. Or maybe the biggest comedy here is that the person asks a poster named "coderguy" what he does for a living, well, I just can't imagine what that guy does for a living. You got me man, I am so sorry for bringing this up (actually I am, it did get too long)...

Silly... Silly...


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post #118 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 01:21 PM
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E.g.

On/off

I measure 0 ire in black room on screen ( gain 1.0 ) = 0,01 fl
I measure 100 ire in black room on screen = 10,00 fl
on/off = 1000:1

Agree ?

I measure 0 ire in room with light on ( say 1 fl light additive to screen - 1 fl + 0,01 fl ) = 1,01 fl
I measure 100 ire in room with same light on ( 1 fl additive to screen ) = 11,00 fl
on/off = 10,89: 1

What´s wrong with my math here ?


Ansi CR

I measure 0 ire black square in black room on screen ( gain 1.0 ) = 0,1 fl ( because off light leakage from the 100 ire square just next to it, it will be less black )
I measure 100 ire in white square in black room on screen = 10,00 fl
ANSI CR = 100:1

Correct ?

I measure 0 ire square in room with light on ( say 1 fl light additive to screen - 1 fl + 0,1 fl ) = 1,1 fl
I measure 100 ire square in room with same light on ( 1 fl additive to screen ) = 11,00 fl
AnSI CR = 10:1

Correct ?


If my e.g. is correct !? both on/off and ANSI CR takes a big step down ( not the same amount, but much both 90 / 10 times lesser ) because off the light in the room - could someone please explain ?confused.gif

BTW. that the same I see happining on screen with my eyes, when I look at it, no matter if it is a 0 ire black/ 100 ire white full test pattern picture or a 16 square at 0 ire/100 ire - both get washed out and the CR goes down.

dj
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post #119 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I read it again, ok...
Simultaneous contrast is never the same as the ANSI measurement except on a checkerboard pattern, although if you tried enough patterns you may measure the same since LIGHTNING can actually strike the same place twice. ANSI and simultaneous contrast and intrascene contrast are not the same. Nor is ANSI contrast a proper linear indicator of a projector's contrast capability in bright scenes overall, some indicator yes, but it lacks purity.
Not names perse, but it got kind of nasty.

I must say that you are not the nicest child in the street with me either, but i usually don´t care about that.

If you know how to mesure ANSI contrast you will get the same result every time and as I say this is a perfect indicator of how the projector defines the difference between black and white in the engine, and then again is very important in medium dark to lighter scenes in a movie(intrascene contrast). Ant that is why I say that ANSI contrast is very important for intrascene contrast and is the same. But you have the scientific approach to this and therefor you have to be right and I have to be wrong, and I am shore we could find out about our differences if we met eye to eye. This discussion is just silly-smile.gif

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post #120 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The bigger Question is why a person created a new screen name 30 minutes ago and has 1 post in this forum, and then challenges me as if they are moderator, in the same sentence that they ask what I do for a living. Or maybe the biggest comedy here is that the person asks a poster named "coderguy", well, I just can't imagine what that guy does for a living. You got me man, I am so sorry for bringing this up (actually I am, it did get too long)...
Silly... Silly...


Im not Andreas, but i know what he stands for. I can not say the same about you.
Strange that this came form you smile.gif
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