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post #181 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Right, we both agree on this then, but you can't have it both ways. Think about it for a second, if light is reflecting off the wall pretty evenly at least to the point where the on/off is measured, then this is no different then adding an even amount of ambient light. You are essentially saying that an external light source is reflected at a different rate than the projector's own beam. All a projector beam is.... is a light source hitting the screen relatively evenly (given a projector has no major brightness uniformity issue).
If this is true with only a projector beam, then this also has to be true with any external even light source hitting the screen evenly. That was my point earlier when I got cussed out.
I will measure to find out for sure, but I think those guys were wrong then if you also agree with my earlier point that it is reflected at the same rate from the bottom and top fL.
Then nothing I said here was wrong.

The reflected light intensity making it's way back to the screen from the walls is going to be less than the brightest white light coming from the projector lens, so bright areas on the screen are not going to be affected or seen, however reflected light hitting the screen may be brighter than the darkest areas on the screen and will raise those levels.

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post #182 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

The reflected light intensity making it's way back to the screen from the walls is going to be less than the brightest white light coming from the projector lens, so bright areas on the screen are not going to be affected or seen, however reflected light hitting the screen man be brighter than the darkest areas on the screen and will raise those levels.

Well, from the way I understand it and what I've read...

Light is additive, you may not see it, but it still has to show up in a measurement. Our eyes can barely even tell the difference in brightness when you adjust the IRE at 100 level by 20%+, our eyes see a larger difference in the black floor before seeing a difference in the white peak, this is completely normal. A bright projector overpowers ambient light because the amount of light added in relativeness cannot be seen by our eyes, but the light is still there. If light were not additive to both the black floor and white peak regardless of how much light you had, then it would have to be taking up all physical space that the wave length can occupy as the maximum white peak (or something like that).


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post #183 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

This a good one.
My RS20 developed an optical block failure, and was replaced tith a RS35 optical engine. I use HP screens(had one then) and ran the iris at -15. The 50k:1 vs 70k+:1 yielded a far more dynamic picture, same globe. Sure it was a comparison by memory but the difference was quite stunning and obvious.


Hi Highjinx

So you would say that there is a very clearly visible gain going from 50K to 70K in on/off CR ? ( was it measured ? )

dj
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post #184 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Hi Highjinx
So you would say that there is a very clearly visible gain going from 50K to 70K in on/off CR ? ( was it measured ? )
dj

In my case yes, but it may not have been purely the CR increase, the optics may have been changed as well.

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post #185 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

No guys, I am pretty sure I was right because if you were right and light was not additive, then stacking two projectors would produce the same fL at the white peak if one projector was slightly dimmer than the other. AND... we absolutely definitely know this is NOT true, stacking two projectors increases the light by about double. The fL of one projector's white peak does not drop just because the white peak of the other is not above the maximum peak of the original light source. It would also cut the contrast ratio in half if you were correct, and it does not.
Bah I took all this heat for nothing, I should have just stood my ground and not backed down.
Mark H was right, DarinP was right, so were all the others. You were all wrong. I should have just used this example in the beginning, I don't even need to measure now, but I will anyways.
My original statement should therefore be correct, any light source hitting the screen evenly raises the on/off evenly, period.

I agree it is addative, but there is a greater effect on black levels deminishing by reflective light (off the walls) than the bright levels rising.

Crude example:

IRE 100 20 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)

IRE 0 .0004 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)

On/Off CR 50000:1

Light blockers removed(5% of light returning to the screen)

IRE 100 21 foot lamberts

IRE 0 .00042 foot lamberts

On/Off CR 50000:1


Mixed scene:(if only!)

IRE 100 20 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)

IRE 0 .0004 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)

On/Off CR 50000:1


Light blockers removed(5% of light returning to the screen)

IRE 100 21 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)

IRE 1.0004 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)


CR 21:1

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post #186 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

See above, you guys theories are all wrong man, sorry...
Waste of my time (don't take it personally, but pretty frustrating to get hammered by 5 people and every one to be wrong).

Discussions are a good thing!smile.gif

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post #187 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 07:16 PM
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The reflectivity increases against the walls as the projector gets brighter proportionately to the amount of fL. It is a perfectly linear equation based on the reflectivity of the wall or room conditions. More light is reflected back when the projector is at its peak (not less), this is what balances the linear equation and offsets that theory that you can just add the fL to the top and bottom (doesn't work like that). The brighter the projector gets, the more backwash is created (making it brighter and brighter at the peak), this is why ANSI contrast is altered and on/off is not. It is this symbiotic relationship between the reflections of the wall and how bright the projector is, now I understand WHY the earlier math was all wrong, that is why.

You are saying stacking two identical projectors gives a miniscule amount of the original native on/off contrast, and never heard that personally. There is no other way the math comes out.


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post #188 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The reflectivity increases against the walls as the projector gets brighter proportionately to the amount of fL. It is a perfectly linear equation based on the reflectivity of the wall or room conditions. More light is reflected back when the projector is at its peak (not less), this is what balances the linear equation. The brighter the projector gets, the more backwash is created, this is why ANSI contrast is altered and on/off is not. It is this symbiotic relationship between the reflections of the wall and how bright the projector is, now I understand WHY the earlier math was all wrong, that is why.
You are saying stacking two identical projectors gives a miniscule amount of the original native on/off contrast, and never heard that personally.
There can be no other way, you earlier stated it cannot be seen or measured.

Stacking two digital projectors should not increase the on/off, but it will with two CRT projectors. Unless the digital projectors have a shutter mechanism to fully block the light at 0 IRE.

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post #189 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It does not increase it, but it does not reduce it. I never said it did increase it, but by your contrast math it would be reduced.
You are misunderstanding my point, they said EVENLY DISPERSED light hitting the screen can change the on/off if it is external light (and you agreed stating some theory because one projector's white peak was higher than the interfering light).
No, let me explain one more time, a projector is just projecting a white even light onto the screen, it does not matter if this comes from any other source besides a projector, if it is even.
If you were right in your above statement, then the on/off contrast ratio of stacking two projectors would be greatly diminished, and you just said it is not (you are contradicting yourself by that).
You cannot have it both ways, sorry, it's a contradiction in math. If stacking two projectors does not reduce contrast, then adding even light to the point where you take an on/off measurement can also NOT change the on/off contrast. Period, no way around this math.


I do have a bad habit of selective reading.

If the light is addative with the digital projectors both darkest levels and brightest levels will double thus on/Off CR should remain the same, darkest will be 1/2 as dark and the bright 2x as bright, the ratio remains the same.

To take the room totally out of the equation take your On/Off reading/s with the light meter pointed at the lens.

Then include the room, taking the readings from the screen.

I rember a gentleman(who owns an Italian AV site) used to post here and I think it was the RS1 days, this results on the On/Off CR was 6000:1 it was done in a white room, where as the US measurements(Greg Roders perhaps) were done in a dark colored room or directly from the lens, yeilded a 15000:1 or there about result.

BTW the 20:1 CR is really an intra scene CR not On/Off

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post #190 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 08:01 PM
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You are saying because BOTH the stacked projectors can vary in light output between the darkest and brightest scene, this is the difference between a static light shining on the screen which cannot change in light output (ok)... I see what you are saying, I guess I still need to test it then. OK, I still wonder how much the on/off is really affected though from a small amount of room reflections, I don't see how it can be that much.


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post #191 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

You are saying because BOTH the stacked projectors can vary in light output between the darkest and brightest scene, this is the difference between a static light shining on the screen which cannot change in light output (ok)... I see what you are saying, I guess I still need to test it then. OK, I still wonder how much the on/off is really affected though from a small amount of room reflections, I don't see how it can be that much.

I'm saying both projectors have the same CR, same max brightness and same dark levels.

Pure On/Off is only valuable when the switch rapidly between bright and dark, in a long pause between bright and dark the eye's iris opens up and raises the dark level seen even though there is no actual rise in dark level.

The eyes iris plays a big part here........... do the credit test, watch the rolling credits and block the direct light to the eyes and observer the rise of the dark areas when the eye's iris opens.

Lets assume both projectors are identical and there is an additive effect. 50.000:1 native on/off, no room reflections

PJ 1
12 fl 100 IRE
0.00024 0 IRE
PJ 2
6 fl 100 IRE
0.00012 0 IRE


PJ1 & PJ2 stacked
18fl 100IRE
.00036 0 IRE

CR is still 50,000:1

Please do the lens/screen measurements this test should be definitive and indicate how much the room can affect...........and factor in the eye's iris affect on the effect!

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post #192 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 08:37 PM
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Yah, I got that (ok we agree there), but here is the next problem.

1) It is now agreed that light is additive (we're past this)
2) You and I have agreed that a screen cannot preserve the on/off contrast really, but only preserve ANSI.
3) However, you also stated that reflections coming off the wall affect the black levels more than the white levels even if that reflection is uneven due to the walls reflecting light. My point was the numbers are being plugged in wrong, because as the projector gets brighter so does the amount of light reflected back onto the screen (so it is not as simple as just adding fL to the absolute black and absolute white number). There is an extra variable, the reflecting light at higher fL's is greater than at lower fL's. The absolute white in this case would get a bigger reflection boost in foot lamberts, and I just assume this is linear offsetting your flat contrast math.

#1 and #2 are in conflict with # 3....

The problem with all 3 of those adding up together is this, a retro-reflective screen reflects light back to the middle of the viewing area (moving light away from the walls). If the on/off contrast is so easily affected by the reflection from the walls (as you say), then a retro-reflective SCREEN has to be able to preserve not only ANSI contrast, but also ON/OFF.

Hence, if an HP screen redirects light towards the middle, but the walls cause a reduction in on/off contrast, then we have another contradiction.

So something still has to give here.

The On/Off contrast measurement is generally just a spot measurement of the white to black, so I don't see a large uneven field of brightness being generated. I also do not understand how you guys can just add X amount of foot lamberts in a flat equation back to the screen in a reflection equation, we have light reflecting (stacking), the more you turn the brightness up the more reflects. The absorption amount of light is not the same against the walls at higher fL's (it is the same on a % basis or equation once you know the reflection/absorption % of the walls, but flat math does not work in this case).

A candle in a mirror is brighter than a candle in a dark room. An even brighter candle in the mirror is disproportionately brighter than a candle that is not as bright in the mirror, because the candle reflects up more light but also starts out brighter in the first place.

A FULL WHITE field screen is reflecting a tremendously greater number of foot lamberts off the wall than a full black screen, this is why the math cannot work as has been stated. Not that you are wrong on all points (you aren't), but something has to give (as noted)...


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post #193 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 09:07 PM
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Here, I'll post this separately to make it simple:

Let's try this again...

Let's assume we are at 1 fL (the pretend absolute black level) and we are reflecting 10% of the light back onto the screen from the wall which gives us 1.1 fL. If we are at 10 fL, we are now at 11 fL (not 10.1 fL). I have no idea on the real reflection math of any given room, but it should be a % basis, not a flat number.

I think for the most part it probably cancels itself out.

11/1.1 still = 10/1

If the light is reflecting back onto the screen, and you take the white/black measurement from the same part of the screen, the on/off contrast remains the same. This was what I meant originally when people said no way, it was that if the light is not directly hitting the screen the backwash amps the light proportionately in the reflection. I did incorrectly state that even if there is some ambient light (ok that was wrong, but close enough) Later I also started theorizing what happens if you shine the light on the screen (just tired though, I knew better). I am just a bit worn out from this argument, going to call it a day. None of this had anything to do with the original discussion about ANSI contrast, and I wasn't prepared to switch gears this drastically.


...


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post #194 of 320 Old 12-30-2012, 10:46 PM
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Man. i spend the dasy shopping with my wife and watching fotball and I come back and find 4 more pages of this thread. Wow.

I skipped through it, I just can't bear to read it all.

On off is not affected by the room conditions. That's a fact. Darimp published a complete.paper on it. More is always good.
ANSI CR is affected by the room when measured on screen.. Measured looking at the light exiting the screen, I think it would eliminate room effects but that information does not reflect what one will get off the screen with room effects. you can have a high ANSI looking at the lens and have a much lower ANSI when mesuring off the screen and that number is the relevant one. The pattern more or less dividesinto black and white blocks, the sum of each about each being the same area. The blocks are big so that screen bleed is taken out of the equation. One measuring at the center of each block. The spead of blocks tend to average out projector brightness non uniformity and screen edges being closer to room boundaries and more affected by room reflections. .What does the off the screen result really mean. Much more in a black pit room but still not exactly sure.

A few years back I attacked Joe Kane, as a friend, in a group presentation, he has attacked me plenty in such settings also, because of his glib use of the word contrast. I asked him exactly what he meant by his use of the word? He looked at me and said he was misusing the word and basically he thought the audience was too stupid to understand what he was talking about if he use the correct term. I said try us.

He said what the correct term was, MTF and everytime he tried to use the word contrast from that point, he stopped himself and used the term MTF. MTF off the screen is the true measure of system contrast. The room, the screen and the projector. MTF is more or less the degree a system resolves contrast. You can meassure MTF of the lens alone, the projector including the lens, then that with the screen and the room.

Of course, you comprising the dumb audience would have no basis to translate a particular MTF number to what you would see.

I am going to bed. Hope to see 16 more pages of responses in the morning.

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post #195 of 320 Old 12-31-2012, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Man. i spend the dasy shopping with my wife and watching fotball and I come back and find 4 more pages of this thread. Wow.
I skipped through it, I just can't bear to read it all.
On off is not affected by the room conditions. That's a fact. darimp pubplished a complere paper on it. More is always good.
YANSI cR is affected by the room when measured on screen.. Measured looking at the light exiting the screen, I think it would eliminate room effects but that information does not reflect what one will get off the screen with room effects. you can have a high ANSI looking at the lens and have a much lower ANSI when mesuring off the screen and that number is the relevant one. The pattern more or less dividesinto black and white blocks, the sum of each about each being the same area. The blocks are big so that screen bleed is taken out of the equation. One measuring at the center of each block. The spead of blocks tend to average out projector brightness non uniformity and screen edges being closer to room boundaries and more affected by room reflections. .What does the off the screen result really mean. Much more in a black pit room but still not exactly sure.
A few years back I attacked Joe Kane, as a friend, in a group presentation, he has attacked me plenty in such settings also, because of his glib use of the word contrast. I asked him exactly what he meant by his use of the word? He looked at me and said he was misusing the word and basically he thought the audience was too stupid to undrstand what he was talking about if he use the correct term. I said try us.
He said what the correct term was, MTF and everytime he tried to use the word contrast from that point, he stopped himself and used the term MTF. MTF off the screen is the true measure of system contrast. The room, the screen and the projector. MTF is more or less the degree a system resolves contrast. You can meassure MTF of the lens alone, the projector including the lens, then that with the screen and the room.
Of course, you comprising the dumb audience would have no basis to translate a particular MTF number to what you would see.
i am going to bed. Hope to see 16 more pages of responses in the morning.

We all agree that on/off contrast is not affected by the room, but it is affected by ambient light.

And when you measure ANSI you shuld measure on the edges not the center of the blocks.

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post #196 of 320 Old 12-31-2012, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Well, from the way I understand it and what I've read...
Light is additive, you may not see it, but it still has to show up in a measurement. Our eyes can barely even tell the difference in brightness when you adjust the IRE at 100 level by 20%+, our eyes see a larger difference in the black floor before seeing a difference in the white peak, this is completely normal. A bright projector overpowers ambient light because the amount of light added in relativeness cannot be seen by our eyes, but the light is still there. If light were not additive to both the black floor and white peak regardless of how much light you had, then it would have to be taking up all physical space that the wave length can occupy as the maximum white peak (or something like that).

If your theory is right that ambient light does not affect on/off contrast, then it should not affect ANSI contrast either.

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post #197 of 320 Old 12-31-2012, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

On off is not affected by the room conditions. That's a fact. darimp pubplished a complere paper on it.

With a CRT projector yes, not digital.

With digital projection room conditions affect On/Off conditions to a much lesser degree than ANSI CR is affected, the higher the native CR the lesser it is affected as well.

Simple test, in a white walled room take an on/off reading off the screen, then take the same reading from the projector lens, ensuring no wall reflected light is affecting the meter readings. There will be a difference in recorder CR.

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post #198 of 320 Old 12-31-2012, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Yah, I got that (ok we agree there), but here is the next problem.
1) It is now agreed that light is additive (we're past this)
2) You and I have agreed that a screen cannot preserve the on/off contrast really, but only preserve ANSI.
3) However, you also stated that reflections coming off the wall affect the black levels more than the white levels even if that reflection is uneven due to the walls reflecting light. My point was the numbers are being plugged in wrong, because as the projector gets brighter so does the amount of light reflected back onto the screen (so it is not as simple as just adding fL to the absolute black and absolute white number). There is an extra variable, the reflecting light at higher fL's is greater than at lower fL's. The absolute white in this case would get a bigger reflection boost in foot lamberts, and I just assume this is linear offsetting your flat contrast math.
#1 and #2 are in conflict with # 3....
The problem with all 3 of those adding up together is this, a retro-reflective screen reflects light back to the middle of the viewing area (moving light away from the walls). If the on/off contrast is so easily affected by the reflection from the walls (as you say), then a retro-reflective SCREEN has to be able to preserve not only ANSI contrast, but also ON/OFF.
Hence, if an HP screen redirects light towards the middle, but the walls cause a reduction in on/off contrast, then we have another contradiction.
So something still has to give here.
The On/Off contrast measurement is generally just a spot measurement of the white to black, so I don't see a large uneven field of brightness being generated. I also do not understand how you guys can just add X amount of foot lamberts in a flat equation back to the screen in a reflection equation, we have light reflecting (stacking), the more you turn the brightness up the more reflects. The absorption amount of light is not the same against the walls at higher fL's (it is the same on a % basis or equation once you know the reflection/absorption % of the walls, but flat math does not work in this case).
A candle in a mirror is brighter than a candle in a dark room. An even brighter candle in the mirror is disproportionately brighter than a candle that is not as bright in the mirror, because the candle reflects up more light but also starts out brighter in the first place.
A FULL WHITE field screen is reflecting a tremendously greater number of foot lamberts off the wall than a full black screen, this is why the math cannot work as has been stated. Not that you are wrong on all points (you aren't), but something has to give (as noted)...

Don't agree with point 2.

Taking room reflections out of the equation a screen will not have an effect on On/Off CR, it can increase the brightness of both whites and blacks if it is a positive gain or decrease both if it's a negative gain one.

Putting room reflections back( in mixed scenes) will raise the black level affecting and reducing the CR in such scenes (Modified ANSI CR)

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post #199 of 320 Old 12-31-2012, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Here, I'll post this separately to make it simple:
Let's try this again...
Let's assume we are at 1 fL (the pretend absolute black level) and we are reflecting 10% of the light back onto the screen from the wall which gives us 1.1 fL. If we are at 10 fL, we are now at 11 fL (not 10.1 fL). I have no idea on the real reflection math of any given room, but it should be a % basis, not a flat number.
I think for the most part it probably cancels itself out.
11/1.1 still = 10/1
If the light is reflecting back onto the screen, and you take the white/black measurement from the same part of the screen, the on/off contrast remains the same. This was what I meant originally when people said no way, it was that if the light is not directly hitting the screen the backwash amps the light proportionately in the reflection. I did incorrectly state that even if there is some ambient light (ok that was wrong, but close enough) Later I also started theorizing what happens if you shine the light on the screen (just tired though, I knew better). I am just a bit worn out from this argument, going to call it a day. None of this had anything to do with the original discussion about ANSI contrast, and I wasn't prepared to switch gears this drastically.
...

Agree with this,as stated earlier.

Crude example:

IRE 100 20 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)

IRE 0 .0004 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)

On/Off CR 50000:1

Light blockers removed(5% of light returning to the screen)

IRE 100 21 foot lamberts

IRE 0 .00042 foot lamberts

On/Off CR 50000:1


But the reality is this is only a factor if a scene is completely white followed by one that is completely black.......if completely black for more than a couple of seconds, the eyes iris opens up and the dark black level seen in the rapidly alternating flashes of black and white will become elevated.

Native CR needs to get to a point where even during extended black durations and the eyes iris's open up the black level is still seen as black,,,,,,,,,,,,the rolling credit example again.......one day soon I hope.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Man. i spend the dasy shopping with my wife and watching fotball and I come back and find 4 more pages of this thread. Wow.
I skipped through it, I just can't bear to read it all.
On off is not affected by the room conditions. That's a fact. darimp pubplished a complere paper on it. More is always good.
YANSI cR is affected by the room when measured on screen.. Measured looking at the light exiting the screen, I think it would eliminate room effects but that information does not reflect what one will get off the screen with room effects. you can have a high ANSI looking at the lens and have a much lower ANSI when mesuring off the screen and that number is the relevant one. The pattern more or less dividesinto black and white blocks, the sum of each about each being the same area. The blocks are big so that screen bleed is taken out of the equation. One measuring at the center of each block. The spead of blocks tend to average out projector brightness non uniformity and screen edges being closer to room boundaries and more affected by room reflections. .What does the off the screen result really mean. Much more in a black pit room but still not exactly sure.
A few years back I attacked Joe Kane, as a friend, in a group presentation, he has attacked me plenty in such settings also, because of his glib use of the word contrast. I asked him exactly what he meant by his use of the word? He looked at me and said he was misusing the word and basically he thought the audience was too stupid to undrstand what he was talking about if he use the correct term. I said try us.
He said what the correct term was, MTF and everytime he tried to use the word contrast from that point, he stopped himself and used the term MTF. MTF off the screen is the true measure of system contrast. The room, the screen and the projector. MTF is more or less the degree a system resolves contrast. You can meassure MTF of the lens alone, the projector including the lens, then that with the screen and the room.
Of course, you comprising the dumb audience would have no basis to translate a particular MTF number to what you would see.
i am going to bed. Hope to see 16 more pages of responses in the morning.

Mark

"room conditions" ( like light in the room ? dos that qualify as room conditions ? ) if it do and you are saying that light in the room do not change on/off CR ( sorry MTF smile.gif ) ?

BTW

a Quote from a man smile.gif:

When asked what I see, I use there is a much higher degree of realism with the Sony 1000ES but some of this is dependent on the screen material. In my case Snowmat in a dark pit room, the only type of room where the full benefits of snowmat can be seen. In any other room, the wide dispersion of the material will result in room boundaries reflecting light back on the screen wiping out part of the system MTF.

Well - "part off the system MTF is that only the ANSI CR and NOT on/off CR ? saying that, if you trow a all black 0 ire frame on the screen, the black level will not go up because of the reflecting light or a extern light source !!?? ( or the 100 ire white will change by the same amount and preserve the same on/off CR no matter, how much external light is hitting the screen ? )

Remember we talk about what is seen on screen ( the hole part off a systems MTF / CR ) and if light from the room ( because off a light source, white walls etc. ) do not change on/off !? why should we then have batcaves and turn the light off ? because it make the ANSI CR bad ? but Coderguy is saying that ANSI CR do not means anything ( dosnt matter if the ANSI CR is 100 or 400 on screen or even in the proejctor !! ) , so now Im Confused confused.gifbiggrin.gif

Im sure, thats not what you are saying Mark ( but it sure reads like that in your text ) ? or if it is, then my room is behaving strange wink.gif ( and I need new eyes too tongue.gif )
Or said otherwise: what do you mean ?


Hope you did get a good night off sleep - tonight it is a new year

Happy new year everbody

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post #201 of 320 Old 12-31-2012, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

With a CRT projector yes, not digital.
With digital projection room conditions affect On/Off conditions to a much lesser degree than ANSI CR is affected, the higher the native CR the lesser it is affected as well.
Simple test, in a white walled room take an on/off reading off the screen, then take the same reading from the projector lens, ensuring no wall reflected light is affecting the meter readings. There will be a difference in recorder CR.



an easyer ( and what we talk about here ) test would be to take an on/off reading off the screen in a dark room and then turn the lights on and take an on/off reading off the screen again - you get the same on/off CR ?

I will expect that the lower the absolute black level is ( higher on/off CR ) the faster and the more it will be destroyed by the external light - not ?
where the very bright 100 ire will not change very much - not ?

Thats why we all still better can see bright pictures, when the light is on and not dark pictures - because black level and dark detail is depending on the absence off light - right ? and bright pictures not, because it makes the light detail by it self - right ?

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I have not gone to the official ANSI ANSI CR measurement procedures but the test patterns built into my 1000ES have two patterns for measuring ANSI CR. The first is a checkerboard pattern, the one we are discussing here. The second is the same pattern but having a small cross hair in the center of each block for aiming your probe (the better ones come with built in laser pointers or aimers) You aim at the screen, toggle to the first pattern, measure and toggle back, aim, measure yada yada. Yoiu do not aim at the edges.

Obviously, on off is a ratio. A very large number/ divided by a very small number which is very difficult to measure accurately without expensive equipment. But it makes no difference, the difficulty, because measuring doesn't change anything and exact numbers really are meaningless. I have an an on off of 5000 and you have one of only 4800. And once you get to 70,000 any more really does not improve things very much. Who cares if you can run a gamma of only 2.38 and not 2.4. Obviously a small amount of reflected light

Anyway. Someone asked if ANSI was a component of system MTF. Contrast in total is not comprised of adding different metrics. Its not an additive sum of different metrics. You might be able to grab contrast and break it into several compenents, i dont know. On off is a ratio of contrast extremes, nothing more. ANSI CR is a ratio of additive extemes when both are presnt at the same time, more or less, since the extremes vary slightly from square to square. just another type of metric and not nailing what contrast is comprised of. MTF measures the ability to resolve contrast differences. What is more important. What yoiu can see in detail, what is the limit in contrast differences the system can resolve or a ratio. One measre or another of dynamic range. Better to tell me what the ref black level is, how black my screen will be so I dodn't get up from my chair during a fade to black and start posting how I was snapped out of my director induced mood because my screen was freeking gray, not black. What does on off tell me once I get enough to run the gama curve that I prefer. Tell me the MTF, what can the system resolve contrast wise.

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@Hijinx
I guess you're the only hold-out on this last point.
Everyone else all now agrees the on/off stays the same with no external ambient light even with reflections, the reason is because the reflection boosts the IRE at 100 more than the IRE at 0 as a percentage of the light being reflected back. This would be the same reason that a screen cannot preserve on/off contrast, but can preserve ANSI contrast.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Agree with this,as stated earlier.
Crude example:
IRE 100 20 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)
IRE 0 .0004 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen)
On/Off CR 50000:1
Light blockers removed(5% of light returning to the screen)
IRE 100 21 foot lamberts
IRE 0 .00042 foot lamberts
On/Off CR 50000:1
But the reality is this is only a factor if a scene is completely white followed by one that is completely black.......if completely black for more than a couple of seconds, the eyes iris opens up and the dark black level seen in the rapidly alternating flashes of black and white will become elevated.
Native CR needs to get to a point where even during extended black durations and the eyes iris's open up the black level is still seen as black,,,,,,,,,,,,the rolling credit example again.......one day soon I hope.


Highjinx

the problem with that e.g. is that Coderguy and Andreas didnt talk about light from a 0 ire pattern ( and 100 ire ) scattering back on the screen, but that a external light that hits the screen would only effect the ANSI CR and not the on/off CR .

So like this:

example:
IRE 100 20 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen and no external light source )
IRE 0 .0004 foot lamberts(all non projector light blocked from reflecting back to the screen and no external light source )
On/Off CR 50000:1
Light blockers removed(light from external source - say o,o1 fl )
IRE 100 20,01 foot lamberts
IRE 0 .01004 foot lamberts
On/Off CR 1993:1


dj



BTW.. Happy new year to you allsmile.gif
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post #205 of 320 Old 12-31-2012, 07:14 AM
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An external light hitting the screen affects both ANSI and On/Off cr.

In my later example, I used a % to show how reflectivity hits back on the screen adding more to 100 IRE than 0 IRE and showed why only in self-projected reflections (no ext light source) that only ANSI is affected and not On/Off...

The reason on/off is NOT affected by it's own reflection, but is affected by external light:
This same example is not applicable if the light is external, the reason being is because external light is a fixed number instead of a percentage (like adding 1 fL of pollution) and then you add a sub-reflected percentage, the fixed part of the light pollution number messes up the contrast ratio, even though it is also adjusted for reflectivity.

(So below works out to the same ratio ONLY if dealing with NO ext light)
Hence If 10fL at 100 IRE, then 10 * 10% reflection = 11 fL at 100 IRE....
If 1 fL at 0 IRE, then 1 * 10% reflection = 1.1 FL...

11/1.1 = same as 10/1 (same ON/OFF CR)

Yes, the above is why it does not reduce on/off from non-ambient reflection, it cancels out from higher reflections at higher IRE's.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

If your theory is right that ambient light does not affect on/off contrast, then it should not affect ANSI contrast either.

My theories were all sound, I just had the math wrong when adding ambient light (that's all). The other math I had was correct. The additive light theories still apply, because if you stack 2 projectors, it gives off an image twice as bright and does not reduce contrast, if light were not additive, it would instead only give off the amount of lumens of the brightest of the two projectors (which is not the case). The mistake I made in the math with the stacking projector example as opposed to external light pollution, was that the reflectivity % in a room that has external light pollution can not overcome how much you raised the black level in correspondence with the white level, even if accounting for reflectivity math. On/Off is affected with an external light source (almost all of us agree NOW I think), but not by wall reflections if no ext light source.


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Time to simplify. If you put a seach light on your screen, you will not measure any contrast, on/off or ANSI or anything. So room light will affect your contrast measurement. Why do we say on/off is not affected by light reflected from the room boundaries from the screen while ANSI CR is.

Because in sequential or on/off CR, there is very very little light reflected back when the screen is reflecting a 0 IRE . There is considerably more when the screen is reflecting a 100% IRE screen. But compared to the value of the 100 IRE window measurement in a non reflective room, the additional amount reflected back in a reflective room is comparatively small in magnitude compared to the non reflective number ll and doesn't change the value of the top value in any signiificant way. Take 500/.01, now say we get a value of 1 higher when we are reflecting a 100IRE window. 501/.01, essentially the same value. At the other end when that 0 IRE measures .01, there is very little light available to reflect backin the first place. The black ref value is measured in the 100s and adding in reflection back might be in the 10000s. Adding the additional in doesn't change things very much. The ratio change, reflective vs non reflective room is less the the measurement error in trying to measure 0 IRE with cheap instrumentation.

With ansi CR, the test pattern id about 50% 100IRE and that in a reflective room reflects back on those 0 IRE squares and the reflected back value is significant when compared to a 0 IRE value with a totally nlack screen. Thatsone of the reasons why ANSI values are so ******.

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post #208 of 320 Old 12-31-2012, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Because in sequential or on/off CR, there is very very little light reflected back when the screen is reflecting a 0 IRE . There is considerably more when the screen is reflecting a 100% IRE screen. But compared to the value of the 100 IRE window measurement in a non reflective room, the additional amount reflected back in a reflective room is comparatively small in magnitude compared to the non reflective number ll and doesn't change the value of the top value in any signiificant way.

Yes, an easy explanation we can all agree on (I hope). I also have pointed out about ANSI, not only is the pattern itself flawed (they really need to measure 2-3 different patterns and average them), but it's so freaking hard to measure because you need to place a tunnel around the black and white squares to block the meter in even near the lens (kind of hard to do, but even then this shows us the lens number only). Getting the REAL ANSI number near the screen is almost impossible, although I suppose in RELATIVE terms to ones own room it matters. There are so many issues with ANSI. Native On/Off (not even dynamic) is really the only straight forward contrast measurement, and even then people still need to use caution when measuring.


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Old timers who have been around since the start of the CRT era should laugh at the suggestion that ANSI CR is not important.

At the start of the projector age there was only on/off CR. Over the next few years as on/off CR started to escalate from 5,000:1 to 40,000:1 by the end of the CRT era people noticed that there was very little improvement in image quality and on/off did not tell the entire intra scene CR story and thus ANSI CR was born. Sure enough ANSI CR was a better predictor of image contrast with the best units measuring almost 300:1 and the poorer units less than 100:1.

One thing to remember is that on/off CR is only relevant because off the non linear nature of the human vision. In order for us to see a scene as dark it needs to have exponentially less light. That is why on/off is largely immaterial in bright scenes and ANSI CR is a better predictor of bright scene performance.

Back to the question at hand. The following is the measured ANSI CR of a few current projectors measured by a Russian site which seems to be the Russian counterpart of Cine4Home

http://www.ixbt.com/projector/projector/#ls804

Sony VW1000 = 600:1 ANSI CR
BenQ W7000 = 500:1 ANSI CR
Pany 7000 = 460:1 ANSI CR
Epson 6010 = 460:1 ANSI CR
Sony VW95 = 425:1 ANSI CR
JVC RS45 = 320:1ANSI CR
JVC RS65 = 195:1ANSI CR
JVC RS65 = 192:1 ANSI CR

For comparison Greg Rodgers measured the Marantz 11S2 at ~800:1 ANSI and the Sharp Z20K at ~750:1 ANSI. Those are the highest ANSI CR he had ever measured. Top end Plasmas and LCDs flat panels measure >3,000:1 ANSI and > 2,000:1 ANSI.
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post #210 of 320 Old 12-31-2012, 11:13 AM
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Thanks for sharing the measurements.

We are not saying it has no importance, just that the measured values people find are generally not that valid. My friend has a TV (and many do) that measured well into the thousands in ANSI contrast, the picture isn't anything special, it needs better on/off for movies (not really, but it wouldn't hurt). When people see it, the picture does not jump off the screen yelling "wow incredible ANSI". It was so important in CRT days because they already high on/off but ridiculously low ANSI.

Most projectors are fine in ANSI today, JVC's a tad low, not so many other projectors even are that low. Most people prefer the higher end JVC's over the RS-45, and the RS-45 has higher ANSI, and these are veteran PJ owners many with DLP's side-by-side. I have an RS-45 and the ANSI looks fine, are there some scenes I notice DLP seems to have higher contrast, yes, but there are some scenes (many or most) where it makes very little difference. It definitely makes more difference in some movies than others.

Using ANSI contrast as a decision maker, with all the other variables today, is not generally applicable to 90%+ of purchasers. They are usually looking to evaluate 3D vs 2D, how dark of blacks. The Sony hw50 is a big step up for Sony on the low-end, and after Zombie's review, it is highly regarded, but not really because of ANSI, more so because of the nice 3D, better FI, better motion, some say ANSI, and the RC (which some like), and the superb brightness for LCOS in this price range.


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