ANSI Contrast Ratio of VW95 / RS55(X70) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 320 Old 12-29-2011, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I really would like to know the real ANSI contrast ratio values of
Sony VW95 (with and w/o DI)
and
JVC RS55 (X70)
Measurings should be done by using the 16 fields Checkerboard Test Pattern.

Does anyone know/have real measurement results? (maybe self made ...)
Thanx a lot!

Regards,
Harry

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Harry
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post #2 of 320 Old 01-01-2012, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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What's up, VW95/RS55 owners?
Is no one able/equipped to measure this very important attribute?

Due to my concern:
All these nice datasheet maximum contrast ratio specifications are not really saying all about of the effectiv quality of a projector, cause they only specify, how good a projector can be in extremly situations.

And such ultimate situations are only test patterns 0 IRE, and 100 IRE; so concerning movies, to me it's more essential, how good a projector can display pictures with many dark/bright (high contrasted) areas in the same frame, as usual.

I have no benefit of great On/Off CR specifications, if optical reflections or other technical issues inside the PJ are leading to brighten up dark pixels at the screen. We don't looking 0 IRE / 100 IRE test patterns, rather then movies whose nature is a very dynamic in-picture contrast behaviour; so for me these great looking "maximum" specifications are only half the truth (not to say "for the birds", cause VW95/RS55 can be "bright" and "dark" enough).

So this thread is addressed to all those, equipped with measurement and nearly a "bat cave" - please post your ANSI measurings of a 16 field checkerboard (can be found on the AVS HD testpattern disk). At least please do one reading of the center black/white fields.

For a good average between a model, "the more, the merrier". You just should mention about:
  • lamp level
  • IRIS level (VW95: would be for interest, if dynamic/fix differs ...)
  • REC 709 calibrated or not
  • gain of your screen
Thank's a lot!

_________
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post #3 of 320 Old 01-01-2012, 12:25 PM
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Have you read this.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/techn...y-devices.html

I was told that the JVC had a low ANSI. Not sure if they measured the Sony.

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post #4 of 320 Old 01-01-2012, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank's guys for your feedback.

Ok, the following has nothing to do with my threads headline, but I want to mention it:

Primarily I love absolutly dark blacks, and the JVC X70 is a very, very interesting projector to me. But the ability of this projector, having an excellent black level regarding "nativ contrast" is the one thing. The other is - how good can he perform this "blacks" in dark scenes as in - for example - cave scenes of "The Descent"?
And here is one issue: I follow up the RS55 owners thread and the (recently) observations about bright corners of JVC's (not only RS55/X70) really making me wonder; after all, in Germany the price for a X70 is ~ $ 9.000!

So back to my headline:
If the VW95 would have an ANSI CR nearly like the RS55 (I still think, ANSI CR says a lot about contrast I'll see in most movies), actually I tend more to the SONY, cause he's going to be more and more an optimal projector: Great black's in low lamp mode with DI (or without?), FI in 2D & 3D, CMS, sharpness, and also important to me - low noice.
What's left at the RS55?
4k e-shift (some guys reporting a softener picture) and a very hot discussed "nativ black" in "some" scenes ... for around +1.500 $ ...

Anyway - if all is going well, I can compare these 2 devices in a few weeks with my own eyes. I'm very tensed ...



(again: ANSI measurements are welcome!)

_________
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Harry
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post #5 of 320 Old 01-01-2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post

If the VW95 would have an ANSI CR nearly like the RS55 (I still think, ANSI CR says a lot about contrast I'll see in most movies), actually I tend more to the SONY, cause he's going to be more and more an optimal projector:

What do you mean "near"? Sony always had a much better ANSI CR than JVC, so it isn't near the ANSI but much better.

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post #6 of 320 Old 01-01-2012, 03:59 PM
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I have a DLP here and a JVC, I've also owned 11 different projectors, ANSI contrast helps animated films a tiny bit and prevents scenes from washing out, but when you split-screen a DLP and a JVC, it isn't that different even in bright scenes, a little.

There are so many more important factors over ANSI contrast to base the decision on. If you want 3D, gaming, etc...

Generally the other factors will quickly out-weigh any difference in ANSI contrast, but yes, the sony will have a bit higher ANSI contrast, but probably not high enough to make much difference. I have DLP's here with 2x the ANSI of the JVC and it only makes a tiny difference in movies, in the majority of scenes the JVC looks better.


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post #7 of 320 Old 01-01-2012, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

What do you mean "near"? Sony always had a much better ANSI CR than JVC, so it isn't near the ANSI but much better.

There's a german forum ... if you would say this there, you would be killed.

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post #8 of 320 Old 01-01-2012, 05:42 PM
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If ANSI is a big priority, then you might want to look at the LED DLPs.

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post #9 of 320 Old 01-01-2012, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post


Primarily I love absolutly dark blacks, and the JVC X70 is a very, very interesting projector to me. But the ability of this projector, having an excellent black level regarding "nativ contrast" is the one thing. The other is - how good can he perform this "blacks" in dark scenes as in - for example - cave scenes of "The Descent"?
And here is one issue: I follow up the RS55 owners thread and the (recently) observations about bright corners of JVC's (not only RS55/X70) really making me wonder; after all, in Germany the price for a X70 is ~ $ 9.000!

I have both Descent 1 and Descent 2 movies here on hard drive. If my JVC RS45 can waltz through these scenes and I mean not look gray or murky in the least bit. The RS55 should have no problems at all either. Forget the nitpicking of people that clearly have more time on their hands than needed and go see for yourself. The bright corners issue isn't like someone shining a flash light in the corners. I can't tell that I even have brighter corners on movies. I have to put paper up to the projector and engage the hide button on the remote. Unless you're planning to watch movies on a piece of copy paper...you'll be fine.

Or just buy the vw95 and be done with it.

JVCs excel at the very scenes you're concerned about. Your concerns are completely unwarranted in that area.

As mentioned already if ANSI is you're only measuring stick..buy a high end DLP.
You still won't get the contrast of these LCOS projectors. Everybody knows the JVCs do black better than any digital projector out there in the dark scenes.
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post #10 of 320 Old 01-01-2012, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post

There's a german forum ... if you would say this there, you would be killed.

Don't worry, I'm aware of the german forum and the fanboy experts in them.
Left the german "scene" years ago because there's lot of nonsense talk, claims and insults and that's not worth it. I still meet with some european friends every now and then though and we're usually having a great time.

The 95 will get you between 400:1 and 450:1 ANSI CR and a solid on/off CR. If you prefer that over the JVC higher on/off CR and lower ANSI, you be the judge. I personally prefer Sony, which also has much better motion handling.

The advise to look at DLP isn't that wrong at all. This will give you >500:1 ANSI CR and given the right model, around 12k:1 to 14k:1 on/off with dynamic black (no dynamic iris). Then decide what you like better.

You can really play around with these numbers, up to around 900:1 to 1k:1 ANSI CR with just shy of 10k:1 on/off. It's all a matter of brightness and price.

I had a handpicked JVC side by side with a LED DLP once and despite the much lower on/off CR the DLP smoked the JVC in my opinion. But again, try this yourself and see what you like better. If money isn't an issue, wait for the new Sony VW1000, which will have the best of both worlds.

- Stephan
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post #11 of 320 Old 01-02-2012, 04:27 AM
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Unless you have a total bat cave with matt black walls, ceiling, floor and furnishing a high tech ambient light rejection screen like the Black Diamond or Supernova will make more difference to ANSI contrast than the projector.

As far as I am concerned the JVC's have only adequate native contrast, anything less is not an option.
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post #12 of 320 Old 01-02-2012, 08:23 AM
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As Owen said, the room has an impact on the ANSI contrast you see on screen, and that is usually the limiting factor of a pjs ANSI contrast capability. However, the room plays no part in affecting on/off contrast. Both are important for how a scene looks in certain conditions.

Even in a poor room, the higher ANIS capable machine will still measure higher ANSI than a lower one, despite both being crippled by the rooms reflections.

The ANSI chequerboard test is equally a contrived extreme measure as is the on/off measure, but both give us important information on how a pj will perform with various scenes. Use the search - this has been discussed here many times over the years with various tests and measures to bear out the theory.

As for the two pjs you mention, it's unlikely you'll ever see the small difference in ANSI between them unless one has noticeable artefacts such as haloing or flare, so if you are going to buy one, use other factors to determine which one suits your personal requirements the best (motion handling, color etc for example).

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post #13 of 320 Old 01-02-2012, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan View Post

The advise to look at DLP isn't that wrong at all. This will give you >500:1 ANSI CR and given the right model, around 12k:1 to 14k:1 on/off with dynamic black (no dynamic iris). Then decide what you like better.

You can really play around with these numbers, up to around 900:1 to 1k:1 ANSI CR with just shy of 10k:1 on/off. It's all a matter of brightness and price.

Which DLP gives those kind of contrast numbers, I haven't seen any that do, you mean some 8k+ ones?

Some of the older sharps had 8k:1 but only while putting out 400 lumens to the screen with their manual apertures fully closed. LCOS can do high contrast with a bright image, AFIK, DLP cannot.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Which DLP gives those kind of contrast numbers, I haven't seen any that do, you mean some 8k+ ones?

Some of the older sharps had 8k:1 but only while putting out 400 lumens to the screen with their manual apertures fully closed. LCOS can do high contrast with a bright image, AFIK, DLP cannot.

What do you consider to be a bright image? The usual LCOS machines from Sony/JVC are not that bright either, certainly under 1000 lumens, much less with some hours on the lamps.

But back to the question, LED DLPs can do that, Sim2 Mico line, Runco Q750 and so on. Mico 50 has a lower on/off CR than the Q750, but a higher ANSI CR. Mico is also brighter. Don't have the numbers for the new Mico line yet.

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I've demoed the Runco Q750, it is impressive! Really love the image this projector throws.
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post #16 of 320 Old 01-02-2012, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

I have both Descent 1 and Descent 2 movies here on hard drive. If my JVC RS45 can waltz through these scenes and I mean not look gray or murky in the least bit. The RS55 should have no problems at all either. Forget the nitpicking of people that clearly have more time on their hands than needed and go see for yourself. The bright corners issue isn't like someone shining a flash light in the corners. I can't tell that I even have brighter corners on movies. I have to put paper up to the projector and engage the hide button on the remote. Unless you're planning to watch movies on a piece of copy paper...you'll be fine.

Or just buy the vw95 and be done with it.

JVCs excel at the very scenes you're concerned about. Your concerns are completely unwarranted in that area.

As mentioned already if ANSI is you're only measuring stick..buy a high end DLP.
You still won't get the contrast of these LCOS projectors. Everybody knows the JVCs do black better than any digital projector out there in the dark scenes.

Same here. Most people will not know if they have bright corners or not. Even in my room with black walls, floor and ceiling, I can't see bright corners on my screen. I can barely see two bright corners using the paper method. In other words it is a none issue for most.

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post #17 of 320 Old 01-03-2012, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Mike, Joesyah.

For 2D: what's your lamp mode?

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post #18 of 320 Old 01-03-2012, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post

(I still think, ANSI CR says a lot about contrast I'll see in most movies),

But it really doesn't, and this is coming from a pretty big DLP fan here. I suggest you take a look at the AVS Contrast Project thread started my Mark P, it was a while back (RS1 time I think), he did a lot of work measuring contrast vs average luminance of a couple different projectors (Sony SXRD, JVC, Sharp 20k).

Also I played around a bit and measured the average luminance of some movies, and most movies are well, well under 50% average luminance (the average luminance of the ANSI checkerboard). I'd say most moves are in the 20% average luminance range. You've got to have really, really bright scene (like IIRC the scene from Ferris Bueller's day off in the white hallway with the school nurse all in white) to hit 50% average luminance.[/quote]

This, combined with Mark P's "study" on pixel response of DiLA vs DLP and of different sized DLP chips on his site, makes me think the "secret sauce" of DLP isn't the higher ansi, but has more to do with how quickly/cleanly one pixel is separated from the next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Which DLP gives those kind of contrast numbers, I haven't seen any that do, you mean some 8k+ ones?

Some of the older sharps had 8k:1 but only while putting out 400 lumens to the screen with their manual apertures fully closed. LCOS can do high contrast with a bright image, AFIK, DLP cannot.

The Planar 8150/Runco LS5 will do around 15k:1 on/off with typical DLP high ANSI, and as bright as a JVC, maybe brighter.

Just FWIW, I think the Lumis does 1k:1 ANSI and >20k:1 on/off with over 1000 lumens (or at least close to that).

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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Same here. Most people will not know if they have bright corners or not. Even in my room with black walls, floor and ceiling, I can't see bright corners on my screen. I can barely see two bright corners using the paper method. In other words it is a none issue for most.

You saying the latest JVCs pass the hand puppet test?

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post #19 of 320 Old 01-03-2012, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Just FWIW, I think the Lumis does 1k:1 ANSI and >20k:1 on/off with over 1000 lumens (or at least close to that).

Never seen a Lumis doing that. ANSI is usually between 800:1 and 900:1 if you get a good unit with the new coated lens, otherwise less. on/off CR is under 10k:1 unless you're using the dynamic iris, which only then will go over 20k:1. And yes, it's over 1k lumens too.

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post #20 of 320 Old 01-03-2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

The Planar 8150/Runco LS5 will do around 15k:1 on/off with typical DLP high ANSI, and as bright as a JVC, maybe brighter.

Just FWIW, I think the Lumis does 1k:1 ANSI and >20k:1 on/off with over 1000 lumens (or at least close to that).

I've never seen those kind of numbers measured for DLP's, I heard the Runco LS5 was in the 5000:1 range, but maybe someone was wrong. When you open the aperture on a DLP, it loses native contrast quite quickly. My JVC did about 1050 lumens or so in cinema mode with the IRIS open. The JVC's are a little brighter this year. The highest Native I seen was the old Sharp at around 8800:1 but only at 300 lumens or so. The others I recall seeing were all under 8500:1.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harry* View Post

Thanks, Mike, Joesyah.

For 2D: what's your lamp mode?

Normal lamp mode, aperture -15, brightness -6, contrast +8
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post #22 of 320 Old 01-03-2012, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

This, combined with Mark P's "study" on pixel response of DiLA vs DLP and of different sized DLP chips on his site, makes me think the "secret sauce" of DLP isn't the higher ansi, but has more to do with how quickly/cleanly one pixel is separated from the next.

That's my take on it as well. People perceive sharp edged pixels as added image sharpness, but in reality its just distortion as ideally pixels should blend together seamlessly with no visible pixel structure and no sharp edges if we want to recreate an analogue image from our analogue world. JVC's E-shift is one way to achieve that goal.
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post #23 of 320 Old 01-03-2012, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The JVC's are a little brighter this year.

Only the RS55 and RS65 are brighter this year, that's simply because a filter was removed from the light path. The base model never used the filter so it did not get brighter this year.
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post #24 of 320 Old 01-03-2012, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I've never seen those kind of numbers measured for DLP's, I heard the Runco LS5 was in the 5000:1 range, but maybe someone was wrong. When you open the aperture on a DLP, it loses native contrast quite quickly. My JVC did about 1050 lumens or so in cinema mode with the IRIS open. The JVC's are a little brighter this year. The highest Native I seen was the old Sharp at around 8800:1 but only at 300 lumens or so. The others I recall seeing were all under 8500:1.

You'll notice I said On/Off not native, IIRC the 8150 is in the maybe 3000:1 range for native, but on/off, sequential they are in the 15k:1 ballpark (I think that took a firmware update from the initial release).

I'd never turn Dynamic Black off on a projector with it implemented as good as the Planar, I've never seen an ill effect in any sort of real world content, you can see it on subs and text overlays sometimes, but I've never found it bothersome.

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That's my take on it as well. People perceive sharp edged pixels as added image sharpness, but in reality its just distortion as ideally pixels should blend together seamlessly with no visible pixel structure and no sharp edges if we want to recreate an analogue image from our analogue world. JVC's E-shift is one way to achieve that goal.

I'm of two minds about that, the engineer in me knows this is true given sampling theory, but the pragmatist in me knows I like the way DLPs look

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post #25 of 320 Old 01-03-2012, 07:08 PM
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IIRC last year we measured the RS50/60 at ~350:1 and a VW90 at ~450:1. Those were full 16 checkerboard ANSI CR measurements.
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post #26 of 320 Old 01-03-2012, 07:40 PM
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Was curious -- what is the "worst case" contrast on these projectors. Fill screen with white, but with either a black dot, or possibly a small black square.. Does the contrast in this case differ much (or at all) from the ANSI test? Or does it perform better?

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post #27 of 320 Old 01-04-2012, 03:00 AM
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It very much depends on reflections from the viewing environment.

http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=966
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post #28 of 320 Old 01-04-2012, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stumlad View Post

Was curious -- what is the "worst case" contrast on these projectors. Fill screen with white, but with either a black dot, or possibly a small black square.. Does the contrast in this case differ much (or at all) from the ANSI test? Or does it perform better?

It will be much worse than the ANSI CR number. The measured black level of center black squares that are surrounded by white square is worse (higher) than those at the edges of the 16 checkerboard pattern.

The ANSI CR test was developed at the height of the CRT era. It measures the effect of white "pollution" of black levels. In a non-manufacturer setting the measurements are typically taken at the projector to minimize room effects.
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post #29 of 320 Old 01-04-2012, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Owen View Post

Only the RS55 and RS65 are brighter this year, that's simply because a filter was removed from the light path. The base model never used the filter so it did not get brighter this year.

I don't think thats quite right. My understanding is changes were made to the actual panel filters. The separate filter is solenoid driven and only comes into play with Film/Cinema presets and Vivid/Adobe profiles. They also changed the colour of that filter to match the changes of filter on the panels from what I understand but the extra light is related to the panel filters.

Your second point is absolutely right that this only affects the 55/65
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post #30 of 320 Old 01-04-2012, 07:36 AM
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I have 20+ measurements for both the RS-40 and RS-45, as well as my own. According to these it is 5% to 10% brighter, could be an anomaly, but JVC said the RS-45 was a little brighter, so did Cine4, so do my measurements. Not saying it is, because a 5% to 10% increase isn't really a given unless I get to 30+ measurements, then I'll be sure it's a little brighter.

Yes though, the RS-55/RS-65 is the main difference.


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