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post #781 of 789 Old 01-23-2017, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Just wanted to let you guys know the Oppo 203 currently does not convert the HDR grayscale to SDR correctly resulting in in accurate black levels and banding.

I'm working with Oppo now to hopefully get them to correct and release a firmware fix.

They also let me know they were at least aware of the situation and were planning a fix.

Last edited by SOWK; 01-23-2017 at 06:12 AM.
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post #782 of 789 Old 01-23-2017, 07:09 AM
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HDR and projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Just wanted to let you guys know the Oppo 203 currently does not convert the HDR grayscale to SDR correctly resulting in in accurate black levels and banding.

I'm working with Oppo now to hopefully get them to correct and release a firmware fix.

They also let me know they were at least aware of the situation and were planning a fix.
I'm not an expert on HDR, but after my recent updates (Oppo UDP-203, Lumagen Radiance Pro, and JVC RS520 pre-order) I have been reading more on AVS.
From my understanding HDR is not really optimized for projectors but rather TVs (eg OLED) with higher nit ratings.
It seems that an external fix -- eg potentially (but not currently) something like a Radiance Pro -- is needed to improve HDR on projectors.

Mike

*EDIT*

Notes

Calibration needed for newer projectors:
1. Bluray - Rec709, SDR
2. 4K UHD - BT2020, HDR
3. 4K UHD - BT2020, SDR



New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series

Quote:
Allow me specifically discuss projectors:

No projector will have much more than perhaps 200 nits of light output with current technology, and most are in the 100 to 150 nits range. So, for calibration you will (leaving out some details):

1) For HDR, set the projector to maximum brightness that still has a good black level. In my opinion the black level is still the most important criteria. Bad blacks will wash out any image. So I believe you would choose to give up some brightness if necessary to maintain a good black level. This will then be the projector brightness setting for all possible HDR mastering max brightness levels.

2) Calibrate color Gamut using the Radiance Pro 3D LUT to the Rec2020 color space to the best ability of the projector. Only one 3D LUT is needed for HDR. You need to have the projector settings reasonable before this step. You will use the HDR EOTF if the projector, and Radiance Pro CMS memory, are in HDR mode. If they are in SDR mode, you use the Rec 709 EOTF. If the CMS output is set to SDR for an HDR source, the Shaping LUT deals with mapping the HDR EOTF so the HDR EOTF is reproduced as well as possible on the projector.

3) Program the maximum projector brightness in nits in the selected CMS memory.

4) Adjust the Shaping LUT parameters to your preference. There is no standard for this mapping. So we have the three parameters to allow the user maximum flexibility to tune the response curve.

The Shaping LUT is designed to adjust the intensity response curve based on the source maximum brightness and taking into account the projector max brightness and the Shaping LUT Transition, Clamp, and Shape parameters. It uses the Mastering Max Brightness in the HDR Infoframe to dynamically adjust the luminance response curve. We made this architectural decision to be ready for “HDR Dynamic Info-frames.”

It remains to be seen (no pun intended) if the Shaping LUT does this function well enough that everyone is happy using the same parameters for different source max brightness levels. If needed, we will work to tune the Shaping LUT response so changes in the source max level to minimize the need to fiddle with parameters.

We know some people will want to fiddle with the Shaping LUT controls no matter how well we manage this task. We will have the ability to have different Shaping LUT parameters for each memory (MEMA – MEMD). We will likely use the “left arrow” remote key to bring up the Shaping LUT parameters so people can tweak. We may even add more functionality for you to tune the response to various mastering levels.
...

New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series

Quote:
The HDR Intensity Mapping, formerly Shaping LUT, adapts the intensity transfer function of an HDR source for display on either an HDR TV/projector, or a SDR TV/projector, with a different maximum brightness than the source mastering level.

This works whether the 3D LUT calibration has been completed or not (but of course it works better if it has).

New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series
We expect that some aspects of HDMI 2.1 will be able to be added with a software upgrade. One example is Dynamic HDR Info Frames. While we cannot commit to this until we have it implemented, it looks like the current hardware will be able to support this feature.

The current Radiance Pro hardware platforms are 4k60. So 8k support, for these models, is not in the plans at this time. That said, the Radiance Pro 444X *may* at some point be able to support 8k output, either by left/right dual output using 18 GHz outputs, or potentially a 36 GHz output card upgrade. This is possible since the 444X models were designed with four 9 GHz outputs which can, potentially, be combined into a single 36 GHz output due to the modular I/O architecture.

Next question is input at 8k. Since there are four times as many pixels to process, there is not enough memory bandwidth or gates in the FPGA and a new design is needed.

I believe 8k output is more important than 8k input and so the potential for 8k output IMO could extend the life of the 444X models if we do end up supporting it.

...

Interesting about new JVC projectors...

Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fingersdlp
Does this mean the new versions 520/620 have a HDR black floor performance that the old versions can not match with any settings adjustments? So the old versions have a compromised black floor in HDR that can not be dialed out but the new versions do not have this issue? Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Burk
I think he's referring to the RS4500. Not sure about others but I'd like to know too.
No, I am talking about the new RS420/520/620 etc

I am just going from what Ekki described on his website.

He says that in Gamma D now, the black floor is correctly at the projectors factory lowest black level. Which means the same black floor you get in SDR is there in HDR and the settings at default. Thats a big plus.

They now clip out of the box to 2000nits, which is MUCH closer to where it should be by default, Ekki says it still required some light adjustments to get it to clip to 1000nits (Naturally) and to the black point clipping required, but he did comment on how much easier it was now to get HDR set properly.

And with the correct black floor, or at least extremely close to the projectors ultimate black floor now, I imagine it does indeed look better on these units.

With the outgoing units, at the JVC recommended settings, the black floor was hilariously raised. That should be pretty much fixed now.

Krix Deering reported exactly the same thing with the RS4500, but since he had not seen the lower tier new models yet, he was not sure if this carried over. Sounds to me like the 4500 is the best HDR projector out there at the moment from his reaction, hopefully they carried across the same underlying default settings... I don't see why they wouldn't have.

Keep in mind, these new units are the first new JVC units since UHD Bluray and HDR became mainstream, so they were not applying any quick fixes, and now they seem to have properly implemented it.

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & output x1 cards} - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520]
HT Details: link

Last edited by Mike_WI; 01-23-2017 at 07:36 AM. Reason: added notes
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post #783 of 789 Old 01-23-2017, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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HDR via UHD Blu-Ray is currently a disaster and should never have been released as is.

HDR via streaming services seem to not be affected in the same negative way.

Using UHD Blu-Ray I have seen different movies being mastered to different black levels for god sakes.

Defined standards and test patterns should have been readily avail before mastering studios even attempted to grade for HDR content.


PRO TIP:

8 bit PC levels 0-255 should map to 10 bit PC levels 0-1023 with ease
8 bit video levels 16-235 should map to 10 bit video levels 64-940 with ease


So when talking HDR

No longer say 16-235, but say 64-940.
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post #784 of 789 Old 01-23-2017, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
HDR via UHD Blu-Ray is currently a disaster and should never have been released as is.

HDR via streaming services seem to not be affected in the same negative way.

Using UHD Blu-Ray I have seen different movies being mastered to different black levels for god sakes.

Defined standards and test patterns should have been readily avail before mastering studios even attempted to grade for HDR content.


PRO TIP:

8 bit PC levels 0-255 should map to 10 bit PC levels 0-1023 with ease
8 bit video levels 16-235 should map to 10 bit video levels 64-940 with ease


So when talking HDR

No longer say 16-235, but say 64-940.
I agree. Another avoidable AV tech confusion.

There is speculation Audyssey may be going away or morphing.
Between that and possible new HDMI standards, waiting on updating AVR.

I just saw info on your Pre-Pro in Dirac discussions. Seems very cool.

Mike

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & output x1 cards} - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520]
HT Details: link
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post #785 of 789 Old 03-01-2017, 11:34 AM
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Hello All. Starting drywall this weekend for my 16 X 25 room. I am right outside of Madison.


I am looking at getting theater seats from Roman at: rtheaters.com, but it is so hard to buy furniture sight unseen. It would also be nice to sit in them. Does anyone have Roman's seats in WI and willing to do a demo?


Thanks,


Nick


Link to my theater build: The Granada Theater - Wisconsin
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post #786 of 789 Old 03-03-2017, 07:17 AM
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Roman HT chairs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnymenudo View Post
Hello All. Starting drywall this weekend for my 16 X 25 room. I am right outside of Madison.


I am looking at getting theater seats from Roman at: rtheaters.com, but it is so hard to buy furniture sight unseen. It would also be nice to sit in them. Does anyone have Roman's seats in WI and willing to do a demo?


Thanks,


Nick


Link to my theater build: The Granada Theater - Wisconsin
I bought 8 HT seats from Roman.
See my HT link in Signature.
I am out of town now and busy multiple weekends, so may be tricky to hookup.
Feel free to direct message me.

Mike

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & output x1 cards} - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520]
HT Details: link
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post #787 of 789 Old 03-03-2017, 03:20 PM
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If any of you guys are interested, ChadB is touring the area from April 17th - May 6th. He's stopping by my place in Waunakee for my JVC projector on 4/23. I'm not sure if there are still openings, but you could always check if interested!
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JVC DLA-RS600, 110" Stewart Cima Neve, Oppo UDP-203, TiVo Bolt, Denon X4300H
Dual Rythmik FV15HP, Energy Veritas Fronts and Surrounds, 4x RSL C34E for Atmos
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post #788 of 789 Old Yesterday, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcramer View Post
If any of you guys are interested, ChadB is touring the area from April 17th - May 6th. He's stopping by my place in Waunakee for my JVC projector on 4/23. I'm not sure if there are still openings, but you could always check if interested!

I must be out of the loop. Who is ChadB and openings for what?
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post #789 of 789 Old Today, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnymenudo View Post
I must be out of the loop. Who is ChadB and openings for what?
He is one of if not the most renowned calibrators on this site.

http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/


JVC DLA-RS600, 110" Stewart Cima Neve, Oppo UDP-203, TiVo Bolt, Denon X4300H
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