4K Sony VW 1000 first short Test - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

may you need to know that i drive my unit always with not any optical shift at all
as the vw 1000 is "horizontally AND vertical" at the center of the screen.

i will not measure it but a shift in any direction can decrease the lumen!

I was thinking the same thing, I didn't see much discussion of this variable when people were saying the low lumens they got compared to you.

Note to self: reduce optical shift as much as possible when I mount this beast...

Matt
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post #452 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I just read Doug Blackburn's widescreen review magazine review of the Enlightor 4k. He states that the real gain is 0.7. Should I take that as accurate? I believe that would be the final nail in the coffin of this thing being able to light up 160" wide scope assuming the best it could do was about 1400 lumens (about 12 ftL). 3D would them be a very dim 4ftL or so (based on eliteprojectorcalculator.com).

If it reached .9 gain that would make me think its right on the brink of being "OK" and I could live with it.

I'm using a JVC RS35 (850 lumens @D65) on a 180" wide 2.35 screen with 0.7 gain... No issues with brightness in my room for 2D (switched to the JVC from much brighter DLP, so have seen what is available - brightness, for me, is not as important as blackness) Getting about 8fL with a new bulb. Light control is the key. 3D, though, *IS* too dim and for this reason alone I need more lumens.

My cinema: The Cave!

My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, Sony vw1000es, Lumagen 2144, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500

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post #453 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

I'm using a JVC RS35 (850 lumens @D65) on a 180" wide 2.35 screen with 0.7 gain... No issues with brightness in my room for 2D (switched to the JVC from much brighter DLP, so have seen what is available - brightness, for me, is not as important as blackness) Getting about 8fL with a new bulb. Light control is the key. 3D, though, *IS* too dim and for this reason alone I need more lumens.

I feel a lot better after reading this...I also had a calibrator tell me he ends up with as low as 6fL many times and it is fine...also, if you are using the Sony throw distance spreadsheet for this projector, and you are trying to get as short of a throw as possible (for maximum lumens, better light cone for standup video gaming, etc), and you are looking at Enlightor, at least the 160" version I have on order is 2.37, not 2.35. So that gives me almost an additional 1% to play with according to the calculator (I'm only really going to really going to have about a 158.6" wide image on that 160" wide screen).

I know you have the error in the spreadsheet of +/- 2", the whole theory of not trying to be at the very edge of the throw distance, etc.



Back to seriousness though, is there any thing about this projector (lens quality, 4k, etc) that makes it a better candidate for being right at the edge of throw distance calculation vs. previous projectors?

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post #454 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 05:31 AM
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I disagree about 6 fL being fine for 2D. Color definitely looks much weaker on a system with less than about 9 fL at 100 percent signal. This is in a dark room which is what a projection system should have. I would shoot for about 15 fL with a new lamp. This will allow for the lamp to dim considerably before performance is too bad.

14 fL will also look better than 9 fL. Generally the closer you can come to SMPTE reference the better.

Micro perf screens have more impact on audio than a weave, but many speakers can be equalized to get them close to what the sound would be with a weave. Some of the best rooms I have seen and heard use a perf. Choosing the right speaker and preamp that can easily handle the treble boost is the key to using a perf well along with sitting far enough back and setting it up to avoid moire.

Some may find this interesting with respect to luminance and visual acuity. Note that a normal image is much dimmer than the max measured on the screen.

http://vision.arc.nasa.gov/personnel...s/image062.jpg
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Professor UMR. Hi.

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post #456 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 04:16 PM
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For those looking to acquire one of the the AMD Radeon 79xx series 4K capable video cards for use with the 1000, I found that the 7970's little brother, the 7950 also has the same 4k output specs. I am going to push the button on ordering one today locally. HIS makes a 7950 that's physically similar to the 7970 which Wolfgang linked to earlier in this thread.

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post #457 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 04:21 PM
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post #458 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I disagree about 6 fL being fine for 2D. Color definitely looks much weaker on a system with less than about 9 fL at 100 percent signal. This is in a dark room which is what a projection system should have. I would shoot for about 15 fL with a new lamp. This will allow for the lamp to dim considerably before performance is too bad.

14 fL will also look better than 9 fL. Generally the closer you can come to SMPTE reference the better.

http://vision.arc.nasa.gov/personnel...s/image062.jpg

This sounds about right on the money, I mean 8-10 fL is still watchable, but after the lamp dims some more, I'd be hesistant to start out this low on a new lamp. Since I made this half-finished projector calculator (yes I will finish it soon enough), I seem to get pulled into some fL arguments about what is proper. 15 fL is going to be better for some than others, but given the price point of this projector, I doubt too many of you would cringe on replacing a bulb more often and even shooting lower if you wanted to go bigger (say down to 12 fL), so I think that gives more leeway for you guys than most people who are concerned about lamp costs.

For instance, when I see people spending $500 on a projector (like maybe a college kid) with a replacement lamp that costs say $180 - $250, you gotta think in their shoes, in that case I might even shoot for as high as 30 fL and tell them to start with an ND filter, because they are probably gaming and 3D use and other stuff is more important than just MOVIE experience (at that price anyhow), and they don't have the $250 to buy a new lamp.

At this price level, I think if you are willing to replace lamps more often, you could start as low as 10fL to 12 fL if you are someone that doesn't always like a really bright image (non-optimal over time though, and not for brightness freaks), but as UMR said, 15 fL would be a better starting point, and really that'd probably be fine with the IRIS fully closed I'm thinking so you can open the IRIS up over time.


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post #459 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

Professor UMR. Hi.

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I will get to work in one of these Friday with a 4K feed for an IMAX cinematographer. It will be interesting to see how it looks with images straight from the camera.
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post #460 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post


This sounds about right on the money, I mean 8-10 fL is still watchable, but after the lamp dims some more, I'd be hesistant to start out this low on a new lamp. Since I made this half-finished projector calculator (yes I will finish it soon enough), I seem to get pulled into some fL arguments about what is proper. 15 fL is going to be better for some than others, but given the price point of this projector, I doubt too many of you would cringe on replacing a bulb more often and even shooting lower if you wanted to go bigger (say down to 12 fL), so I think that gives more leeway for you guys than most people who are concerned about lamp costs.

For instance, when I see people spending $500 on a projector (like maybe a college kid) with a replacement lamp that costs say $180 - $250, you gotta think in their shoes, in that case I might even shoot for as high as 30 fL and tell them to start with an ND filter, because they are probably gaming and 3D use and other stuff is more important than just MOVIE experience (at that price anyhow), and they don't have the $250 to buy a new lamp.

At this price level, I think if you are willing to replace lamps more often, you could shoot for as low as 10fL to 12 fL if you are someone that doesn't always like a really bright image (brightness freak), but as UMR said, 15 fL would be a better starting point.

I just do not get the point of designing for a suboptimal system with a machine of this caliber when 15 fL is easily doable with the right screen and projector location. The system just needs to be optimized for this machine to achieve this.

I find luminance so key it is a parameter I would never sacrifice since it compromises resolution, color and visual impact. In other words I suspect an excellent 1080p rig would probably best a poorly done 4K rig. Just like megapixels and camera image quality at not highly correlated.
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post #461 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by umr View Post

I just do not get the point of designing for a suboptimal system with a machine of this caliber when 15 fL is easily doable with the right screen and projector location. The system just needs to be optimized for this machine to achieve this.

I find luminance so key it is a parameter I would never sacrifice since it compromises resolution, color and visual impact. In other words I suspect an excellent 1080p rig would probably best a poorly done 4K rig. Just like megapixels and camera image quality at not highly correlated.

That is true, and I think 15 fL is a good target, on cheaper projectors I would shoot higher just because of lamp budgets being low. Sony lamps have been anecdotally abnormally excellent this past year in not losing lumens over time (again anecdotally), so that may help as well, but I'm sure this is a completely different lamp.

I like a really bright image, for some stuff I can even watch it brighter than 15 fL, but most of my goal is near that point, and realistically when my min IRIS position finally drops from say 20 fL to 15 fL, I do have less eye strain and find it easier to watch the projector for longer periods of time. Everyone is different though, even at 10 fL to 12 fL I am already wanting it a little brighter usually.


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post #462 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 05:15 PM
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For those looking to acquire one of the the AMD Radeon 79xx series 4K capable video cards for use with the 1000, I found that the 7970's little brother, the 7950 also has the same 4k output specs. I am going to push the button on ordering one today locally. HIS makes a 7950 that's physically similar to the 7970 which Wolfgang linked to earlier in this thread.

I have the 7950 installed. I will try to hook it up to the projector tonight. Anything specific you guys would like me to view and comment on? What great 4k source material is available to download?
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post #463 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I have the 7950 installed. I will try to hook it up to the projector tonight. Anything specific you guys would like me to view and comment on? What great 4k source material is available to download?

Do you have TMT 5? I'm curious if they play together nice for both 2D and 3D.
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post #464 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 05:27 PM
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Do you have TMT 5? I'm curious if they play together nice for both 2D and 3D.

Yeah I do... so you want me to just check if it will output correctly when I am sending out a 4k signal?
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post #465 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 06:38 PM
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Where can I find and download the Spiderman trailer? Or can I?

TMT5 with 2d works great.... 3d I have not gotten to work... im sure its a driver issue or something... I have not set up catalyst control center for 3d and dont really plan on messing with that much. With 3d its obvious the player is outputting the signal, but it looks the same with the glasses on or off...
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post #466 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 06:42 PM
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Yeah I do... so you want me to just check if it will output correctly when I am sending out a 4k signal?

Yes. Would also like to see how TMT handles the card in general in 2d and 3D if possible. TMT doesn't always play nice with some of these cards.
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post #467 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Where can I find and download the Spiderman trailer? Or can I?

TMT5 with 2d works great.... 3d I have not gotten to work... im sure its a driver issue or something... I have not set up catalyst control center for 3d and dont really plan on messing with that much. With 3d its obvious the player is outputting the signal, but it looks the same with the glasses on or off...

Did you try to config 3D through your audio processor? If so, trying going directly from the card to the projector. After it's configured then feed the signal through your audio processor.
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post #468 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 06:46 PM
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Also the Integra 80.2 didnt want to pass the 4k signal. It just reported itself as a 1080p monitor to my computer, so I just went HDMI direct to the Sony.
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post #469 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 06:47 PM
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Also the Integra 80.2 didnt want to pass the 4k signal. It just reported itself as a 1080p monitor to my computer, so I just went HDMI direct to the Sony.

What was the content you were sending that was 4k? Just the resolution setting on your PC I'm guessing?
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post #470 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 06:48 PM
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My TMT is a patch back too I think.. dont have the latest.
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post #471 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 06:49 PM
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What was the content you were sending that was 4k? Just the resolution setting on your PC I'm guessing?

Correct, just the desktop - which looked awesome by the way.. icons and words on the icons looked razor sharp.

Is there a way I can post a pic full rez into this thread?
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post #472 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 06:51 PM
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I also did a little gaming with Skyrim at 3840x2160 - WOW..that game already looked great.. but WOW..

The 7950 played it surprisingly well too... I had my settings from my monitor still plugged in. If I dialed a couple things back I am sure I could get 50-60 FPS at that resolution.
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post #473 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 06:59 PM
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post #474 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 07:00 PM
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It looks pretty good, but way better as the camera added its own shake, noise, etc... razor sharp.
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post #475 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 07:13 PM
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The screen material in the middle is EN4k vs my 2.8 HP.
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post #476 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

The screen material in the middle is EN4k vs my 2.8 HP.

Is it? I thought the material read "XD" as in Seymour Center Stage XD. Mismarked maybe?
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post #477 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 07:54 PM
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Is it? I thought the material read "XD" as in Seymour Center Stage XD. Mismarked maybe?

Yeah I asked the same... but I think its just mismarked. I can't see the weave past about 4-5 feet at 100ire.
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post #478 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post


I find luminance so key it is a parameter I would never sacrifice since it compromises resolution, color and visual impact. In other words I suspect an excellent 1080p rig would probably best a poorly done 4K rig. Just like megapixels and camera image quality at not highly correlated.

Exactly. We have to figure human perception into whatever we want to achieve, not just tech specs like resolution. Brightness and contrast impact our ability to perceive detail. Depending on how dim you allow your set up to get, you are in a real, perceptual sense "throwing away resolution" to some degree (because you are lowering the amount of light and hence detail you will perceive).

This was really brought home to me when comparing screens. I had the Da Lite High Power and compared it to some other screens, like a (effectively) nuetral white screen. On close inspection the pixel structure was resolved more finely on the neutral gain screen. Close up I could see how the HP screen's optical coating created a hazy, blurred effect with the pixels. Viewed that way, one would expect that, if anything, the neutral gain screen would make for as sharp, or a sharper image.

But from my regular viewing distance it just wasn't so. The Brightness difference with the HP engorged my eyes with yummy photons of picture information. The image looked distinctly sharper, with significantly more visible detail, and MUCH more color detail. (E.g. some scenes from Gladiator in the forest showed so much more detail, and color variation among the foliage, trees and rocks, on the HP screen).

That has held true for all the higher (even slightly higher) gain vs lower gain screens I've compared, so long as there is a visible brightness difference.

But had I been able to have an equally bright image on the neutral gain screen, no doubt it would have had similar looking detail and sharpness (if not, perhaps, a bit more).
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post #479 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Yeah I asked the same... but I think its just mismarked. I can't see the weave past about 4-5 feet at 100ire.

You thinking of going with the E4k? It's on my top 3 to consider.
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post #480 of 754 Old 02-14-2012, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by adidino View Post


You thinking of going with the E4k? It's on my top 3 to consider.

Yep.. still quite worried I am not going to be able to light up a 160" wide one.. but the pj calculator says I should get around 13 ftL on it. 3d will likely require that I shrink the image though.
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