Originally Posted by zombie10k
more subjective comments. "My guests thinks it looks great' and 'Plenty bright' does not give a usable frame of reference. It shouldn't be seen as an attack for trying to validate the small sample of owners that seem to have ~1000 lumens in 3D mode. If there's better, less subjective info, let's hear it. Light meters are cheap as dirt.
We tear down every projector to the bone and attack JVC like the enemy of the state, but for some reason we can't try to find out some hard facts on the VW1000's 3D mode. I realize it's expensive and there is a certain pride of ownership., but this used to be the AV(S)cience forum where #'s used to fly around like it was nothing - even on the expensive projectors.
It either puts out 1000 lumens in 3D or it doesn't. I have 1/2 dozen quality light meters I can lend out, it takes 5 minutes to measure the lumen output in 3D.
Greetings Zombie and everyone else,
This is just a ramble. I know you love the detailed specs, but saying: "My guests thinks it looks great' and 'Plenty bright' does not give a usable frame of reference
" is false. It can be most enlightening, depending on your purpose of having the projector, and the other comments that further clarify. On an average week I have guests in my theater watching something or other, perhaps 15 hours - from sports to 3D to 2D movies, to whatever. As a result, my considerations are all factors that affect not just my viewing, but more typical group viewing.
And around here when a phrase like "plenty bright "is used in conjunction with 3D, that means no one my audience quit on the 3D, didn't insist I drop back to 2D, or just complained, because of dimness. (BTW none of these folks own their own projector (except of course my immediate family). Now I like a bright picture (that's been consistent across almost 200 home theater projector reviews), and that's definitely true in 3D. But even when I find some 3D I'm showing is "marginal" that I can still enjoy it (say watching Hugo on a 100" Studiotek 130, with a JVC X70, or the same Hugo filling my full 124" diagonal (same screen) with the 1000ES, I find that more than one of my guests will not not want to watch an entire movie that way, it's just too dim for them. That's the important stuff I'm trying to share.
My point is that knowing the exact lumens in 3D doesn't tell anyone anything as to whether the projector is bright enough for each individual. 1000 lumens may be bright enough for you, but not for me...
Subjective evaluation is all about perspective. For example, I could categorically make a statement like this: If you have 3D on measuring 1000 lumens with a 1.3 gain Studiotek 130, and a JVC X70, and your screen size in your cave is 100 inches diagonal, I can guarantee you that some of your friends will find it uncomfortably dim to watch.
When I am speaking subjectively about 3D brightness - as I do extensively, though, there's always a lot more than one sentence like that. I may not provide lumen counts, but I do relate the relative projector brightness between projectors. It's clear, for example, on our site, that The Epson in 3D is brighter than the Sony VW1000ES which is brighter than the JVC...
re: lumen counts: Measuring lumens before they hit your screen doesn't account for the different glasses, and in some cases different "glasses settings" affect the brightness reaching your eye, but have 0 effect on the brightness measured... That is, with one pair of glasses/setting, the same projector might have the equivalent brightness 20% less than the same projector with different glasses and glasses settings! I appreciate the idea of testing the pass through of all different compatible glasses, etc., but for 97% of those shopping for projectors, they just want "bright enough" and not 5 pages of detailed measurements, (and still have to draw their own conclusions of course. Don't forget, of course, you have to publish zoom lens positioning as well. wide angle and telephoto on most projectors vary by 30% or more in brightness, though surprisingly the VW1000Es with a 2.1:1 zoom had relatively less brightness loss as you go to tele.
Now unless your friends are very different than mine, that should hold. But, the point may be this: Are you looking at your gear just for your own viewing, or are you satisfying the needs of others as well? If you are writing for people with 5 different ideas of acceptable vs dim, then until you define the definition of what is dim - a test, readers still can't tell, what is bright enough for them. You may need 650 lumens on your setup to be thrilled with Hugo at 142 inches, but the next person won't be happy until 1100 lumens for the same setup...
I can't easily determine the range of acceptable brightness for all people, but then I do pass enough folks through my theater for viewing, and try to get as much feedback as possible. During the weeks with the 1000ES for example, I'd guess that at least 15 people watched at least one full length 2D movie, and at least 6 at least one 3D full length movie. Then, maybe 15 additional people got to watch the first 20 minutes of Hugo... I get a lot of feedback. They don't care about numbers, only dim, only crosstalk if they notice it, etc. BTW I had 5 pair of Sony glasses when the VW1000ES was here (still have 3 pair I own). I currently also have 5 pair of Epson glasses here (and a 5010), etc. I'm the proud owner, at the moment of some 18-20 pair of active glasses from at least 6 different brands. if projectors weren't confusing enough... how about choosing between two pair of glasses, one a touch brighter, but also a touch too cool, and a second pair - less bright, color right on... Now just to confuse things, the cooler pair is the more comfortable pair... (the reason I had 5 sony, and still have 5 Epson is so that my guests can all view using the same glasses.
Side note, those of us with large heads tend to prefer Epson glasses as more comfortable than Sony, and those with smaller heads, favor the Sony...
Zombie, you mention you have a test for 3D brightness that I can get, Can it be run through HDMI on my MacBook, or my PS3? Let me know how, and I'll give measuring 3D a shot. Tell me more. I tried private email, but I seem "rejected". Sadly, both the JVC and Sony are now gone, but I can start with the Epson 5010, which will be a good reference until that model is replaced by Epson. -art
PS, re light meters - how close are your "half dozen" Between Mike Tony and I, we only have 5 different meters - two of one kind, to of another, and 1 additional. The brightness range between them seems to vary by more than 13%. One pair of identical meters (both with fresh batteries), vary by almost 5%. Fortunately, Mike does all the measurements of home theater projectors with one of his two identical ones. It is the lowest measuring of the 5. Conservative is good. It also explains why our overall lumen measurements tend to be a bit lower than some other reports. But then we don't do ANSI lumens anyway, our lumen counts are good for comparing two projectors based only on our measurements, which is the way it should be, because of variation from meter to meter. -a