Sony 4K VW1000 with AVR 4K Upscaling? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 02-04-2012, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Has anybody had a way yet to test the 4K upscaling that is showing up in AVRs and AVCs (such as Onkyo)? It'll be nice when somebody with the Sony 4K 1000 can take a look at this to test the quality of the AVR upscaling.
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post #2 of 21 Old 02-04-2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Has anybody had a way yet to test the 4K upscaling that is showing up in AVRs and AVCs (such as Onkyo)? It'll be nice when somebody with the Sony 4K 1000 can take a look at this to test the quality of the AVR upscaling.

On it soon.

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post #3 of 21 Old 02-04-2012, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

On it soon.

Thanks, mate. We'll be watching.

I'm just leary of any benefit to a straight upscaling of 1080p to 4K. Does anyone know if the Onkyo does any processing other than a straight-forward upscaling? E-shift actually processes the 1080p image in a way that can be perceived as an improvement. It seems to me that the continued evolution of the sophistication of e-shift-like conversions/processing is going to be key to the success of Quad4K.
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post #4 of 21 Old 02-04-2012, 01:03 PM
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Tested it with a smaller Onkyo - I found the performance of the Onkyo to be a disappointment. Both the mode where the Sony is only doubling pixels and the Reality Creation mode looked superior, the 4k upscaling in the Onkyo was really soft. Maybe this will be different in the top of the line Onkyo/Integra models but I doubt it.
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post #5 of 21 Old 02-04-2012, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe this will be different in the top of the line Onkyo/Integra models but I doubt it.

As I feared.

Since E-shift is physically "tied" to the panels, it seems that it cannot be accomplished with an outboard processor/scaler. So, although the RS55 and RS65 are a good start (and maybe the 4K Sony, too), it seems that JVC (and others) need to get the wheels rolling to bring to market consumer projectors with full 4K or Quad4 panels, 4K/Quad4K input capability, and next generation E-shift for converting and scaling 1080p sources to Quad4K.

Sony has made a first pass with the 4K projector, but competition needs to get that price tag down.

As long as the progress continues toward a Quad4K BD format, and the progress above is made on projectors, we should see a lot of big smiles in home theaters sooner than later.

I'll be saving my $.
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post #6 of 21 Old 02-04-2012, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Since E-shift is physically "tied" to the panels, it seems that it cannot be accomplished with an outboard processor/scaler. So, although the RS55 and RS65 are a good start (and maybe the 4K Sony, too), it seems that JVC (and others) need to get the wheels rolling to bring to market consumer projectors with full 4K or Quad4 panels, 4K/Quad4K input capability, and next generation E-shift for converting and scaling 1080p sources to Quad4K.

E-shift is a hardware-based optical solution which uses a glass element in the optical path to offset pixels and simulate "4K". Projectors with the optical element appear to have much lower ANSI CR.

Sony has a next gen true cost effective 0.74" full 4K panel in the VW1000. We will likely see that panel in future lower cost projectors.

Note both Sony with 1.55" and JVC with 1.27" have current 4K panels which are used in their respective commercial hi brightness projectors. The panel sizes prevent them from presenting a viable option in the consumer < $10K market.
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post #7 of 21 Old 02-04-2012, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

E-shift is a hardware-based optical solution which uses a glass element in the optical path to offset pixels and simulate "4K". Projectors with the optical element appear to have much lower ANSI CR.

Sony has a next gen true cost effective 0.74" full 4K panel in the VW1000. We will likely see that panel in future lower cost projectors.

Note both Sony with 1.55" and JVC with 1.27" have current 4K panels which are used in their respective commercial hi brightness projectors. The panel sizes prevent them from presenting a viable option in the consumer < $10K market.

That's all useful info. Infra-frame/ansi contrast, as we know, is not tremendous in the JVCs anyway, so if the glass element used for e-shift degrades that even more, then it may not be a lasting feature.

I get your point on the VW1000...and that is what we all presume; that Sony and others will continue the evolution of .74" 4K panels to the consumer market at float-down prices that competition will spur and the market will bear.

Regardless, any manufacturer who can bring an impressive conversion of existing 1080p BD content to 4K or Quad4K to use on the emerging full 4K projectors will serve to help make the transition to a consumer 4K projection format/market...and make us all happy.

Regarding the 4K panels of the commercial projectors, I don't think anyone expects them to show up on the consumer market anyway...so they can price them as they wish. to them.
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post #8 of 21 Old 02-04-2012, 05:38 PM
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I would expect both the JVC e-shift ('4K-lite') and the Sony 'reality creation' will upconvert 1080p input better than the Onk AVR. I.e., it should be better to send 1080p to the JVC and the Sony and let them take it from there.
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post #9 of 21 Old 02-05-2012, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I would expect both the JVC e-shift ('4K-lite') and the Sony 'reality creation' will upconvert 1080p input better than the Onk AVR. I.e., it should be better to send 1080p to the JVC and the Sony and let them take it from there.

True for the Sony and partly true for the JVC - it has better upscaling quality but it cannot accept a 4k signal anyway.
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post #10 of 21 Old 02-05-2012, 07:09 AM
 
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I think its best to discuss the upscaling of 1080p to either 4HD or 4K separately from how that upscaling is displayed (whether by a native 4HD, 4K, or 1080p panel by e-shift).

The scaling needed is quite different for each. Right now the JVC can only accept a 1080p or lessor resolution for deinterlacing if needed and scaling which would always be needed here. The scaling needed is an end result that results in two different frames that when flashed in rapid sequence with one of the two frames e shifted, tricks your eyes into thinking that you are seing 4HD pixels all at once. A very neat trick and I am not using the word in a negative sense. All video is a bunch of tricks to fool one's eyes. Film of course is such a trick. The two sets of pixels in each frame overlap and your brain sees 4HD pixels. The upscaling has to be quite unique and has to result in overlapped pixels that come out laying in intensity etc at the right values and that must mean some adjustment to each set of pixels in the two frames being flashed. The generation of the two frames is said to be a processing and extraction of the 4HD once the HD is scaled to 4HD by the JVC initially. Right now the JVC cannot accept 4HD or 4K in. Next year one would expect it to be able to. Obviously when 4HD source material becomes available in the future it could cut out part of the processing needed for e shift display from three 1080p panels. The JVC would however still have to generate two appropriate 1080p frames to flash and e-shift. However, right now I think there should not be any bemoaning that the JVC can't accept a 4HD in from some scaler in some other unit. The trick here is the generation of two 1080p frames for e shift display not particularly the intermediatary step of getting a scaled 4HD frame for the two frame extraction.

Any true 4HD panel of 4K panel requires scaling for any resolution below the panel's resolution and will accept the native resolution up to a frame limit of its input chips. Right now Sony can only go to 4096 x 2160 at 24 frames. Later when the chips come and that will be in the near term, a board can be changed to allow 60 in. Near term doesn't mean this year but relatively soon. The question as to where the scaling should take place in the chain is simply what component has the best scaler. A relatively cheap component such as an Onkyo component (gussied up as the limited distribution Integra line) or the Sony integral to its $25K MSRP projector? Now when a company like Lumagen comes out with a 4HD or 4K scaler it could beat the Sony in quality. Lumagen's scaling to 1080p clealy beats Sony's scaling to 1080p now.

Now to panels. What is inherently better, flashing and overlaping 2 1080 panels or having a true 4HD panel or 4K panel? Obviously there has to be some degradation of the 1080p image going through the e shift element but I would expect only a diminimus degradation. I hear its very high quality and it does no shaping etc. Its basically a high quality pass through (so to speak, a unity gain device) that shifts pixels 0.5 pixels over and down when energized.

But clearly I think intuition tells us a true 4HD panel or 4K panel and the observations of some who have compared both would result in an even better picture and I would expect JVC to bring out consumer true 4HD or 4K panel machines within a few years. But look what you get now for relatively low price consumer machines (two machines at MSRPS of $8K and $12K with of course lower streets). Its makes 4 HD display (but not sources which aren't available anyway) available to a lot more who can afford that but can't afford the Sony. Pretty neat stop gap IMNSHO.
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post #11 of 21 Old 02-05-2012, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

I think its best to discuss the upscaling of 1080p to either 4HD or 4K seperately from how that upscsaling is displayed (whether by a native 4HD, 4K, or 1080p panel by e-shift.

The scaling needed is quite diferrent for each. Right now the JVC can only accept a 1080p or lessor resolution for deinterlacing if needed and scaling which would alwats be needed here. The scaling needed is an end result that results in two different frames that when flashed in rapid sequence with one of the two frames e shifted, tricks your eyes into thinking that you are seing 4HD pixels all at once. A very neat trick and I am not using the word in a negative sense. All video is a bunch of tricks to fool ones eyes. Film of course is such a trick. The two sets of pixels in each frame overlap and you brain sees 4HD pixels. The upscaling has to be quite unique and has to result in overlap pixels that come out lying in intensity etc at the right values and that must mean some adjustment to each set of pixels in the two frames being flashed. The generation of the two frames is said to be a processing and extraction of the 4HD once the HD is scasled to 4HD by the JVC initially. Right now the JVC can not accept 4HD or 4K in. Next year one would expect to be able to. Obviously when 4HD source material becomes available in the future it could cut out part of the processing needed for e shift display from 3 1080p panels. However, right now I think there should be any bemoaning that the JVC can't accept a 4HD in from some scaler in some other unit. The trick here is the generation of two 1080p frames for e shift display not particularly the intermediatary step of getting a scaled 4HD frame for the two frame extraction.

Anr true 4HD panel of 4K panel requires scaling for any resolution below the panels resolution and will accept the native resolution up to a frame limit of its input chips. Right now Sony can only go to 4096 x 2160 at 24 frames. Later when the chips come and that will be in the near term, a board can be changed to allow 60 in. Near term doesn't mean this year but relatively soon. The question as to where the scaling should take place in the chain is simply what component has the best scaler. A relatively cheap component such as an Onkyo component (gussied up as the limited distribution Integra line) or Sony integral to its $25K MSRP projector? Now when a company like Lumagen comes out with a 4HD or 4K scaler it could beat the Sony in quality. Lumagen's scaling to 1080p clealy beats Sony's scaling to 1080p now.

Now to panels. What is inherently better, flashing and overlaping 2 1080 panels or having a true 4HD panel or 4K panel. Obviously there has to be some degradation of the 1080p image going through the e shift element but I would expect only a diminimus degradation. I hear its very high quality and it does no shaping etc. Its basically a high quality pass through (so to speak a unity gain device) that shifts things a bit when energized.

But clearly I think intuition tells us a true 4HD panel or 4K panel and the observations of some who have compared both would result in an even better picture and I would expect JVC to bring out consumer true 4HD or 4K panel machines within a few years. But look what you get now for relatively low price consumer machines (two machines at MSRPS of $8K and $12K with of course lower streets). Its makes 4 HD display (but not sources which aren't available anyway) available to a lot more who can afford that but can't afford the Sony. Pretty neat stop gap IMNSHO.

Mark, I think you make a lot of good points here, but I think there is more in your post than I can break out with certainty. Can you please proof and edit your post again?...because I think there is a word or two omitted that you intended to include and typos that cause just enough confusion to make it difficult to understand your precise meaning. Thanks.
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post #12 of 21 Old 02-05-2012, 08:32 AM
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Well I am hopeful the 1009, 3009, 5009, 5509 and Integra 80.3 do an adequate job of up scaling 1080p to 4K. I would be floored if it did it better than the 1000. Sure Marvell has a pretty good reputation in scaling but we are way to early in the infancy stages to expect miracles when it comes to 4k upscaled matching true 4K displays.

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post #13 of 21 Old 02-05-2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Well I am hopeful the 1009, 3009, 5009, 5509 and Integra 80.3 do an adequate job of up scaling 1080p to 4K. I would be floored if it did it better than the 1000. Sure Marvell has a pretty good reputation in scaling but we are way to early in the infancy stages to expect miracles when it comes to 4k upscaled matching true 4K displays.

Fortunately we do not NEED 4k scaling with the VW1000ES as it can upscale everything by itself.

Still I would have expected the Qdeo upscaling to be better.
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post #14 of 21 Old 02-05-2012, 07:40 PM
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Fortunately we do not NEED 4k scaling with the VW1000ES as it can upscale everything by itself.

Still I would have expected the Qdeo upscaling to be better.

I will put it thru the paces soon.

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post #15 of 21 Old 02-05-2012, 08:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Mark, I think you make a lot of good points here, but I think there is more in your post than I can break out with certainty. Can you please proof and edit your post again?...because I think there is a word or two omitted that you intended to include and typos that cause just enough confusion to make it difficult to understand your precise meaning. Thanks.

Done
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post #16 of 21 Old 02-16-2012, 06:33 AM
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i have the Onkyo 3009, and i know it can upscale to 4K (apparently not all that well though).

My question is, can it pass a 4K signal through? if i buy a 3D projector like the sony VW1000, will i be able to use 4K through the receiver?
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post #17 of 21 Old 02-16-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

i have the Onkyo 3009, and i know it can upscale to 4K (apparently not all that well though).

My question is, can it pass a 4K signal through? if i buy a 3D projector like the sony VW1000, will i be able to use 4K through the receiver?

The current HDMI 1.4 spec does not support 3D at 4K. 1080p60 is the max supported in 3D by HDMI4, and for 2d, 4K@24p is the max supported.
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post #18 of 21 Old 02-16-2012, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

E-shift is a hardware-based optical solution which uses a glass element in the optical path to offset pixels and simulate "4K". Projectors with the optical element appear to have much lower ANSI CR.

I find that fascinating because perhaps the most salient characteristic I'm getting from my RS55, vs my RS20, is the "look" of a higher ANSI projector.
This is even with the MPC (upscaling/sharpening processing) turned off.

I thought that maybe I would get a slightly darker black floor, but what surprised me was the different look for all scenes, bright scenes especially, where the range of contrast just seems more dynamic and dimensional, in the way I associate with higher ANSI DLPs. (I know that the ANSI issue is not that cut and dried as far as it's effects).

Normally I'd have a bit of nail-biting reading that the JVC's ANSI had been lowered even further by the E-shift glass, but living with the results has me easily saying "who cares, it sure doesn't look that way."

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post #19 of 21 Old 02-16-2012, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

The current HDMI 1.4 spec does not support 3D at 4K. 1080p60 is the max supported in 3D by HDMI4, and for 2d, 4K@24p is the max supported.

Ok, but will my avr be able to pass a 4k signal through from bluray player (or pc, or some 2d 4k source) to the projector?
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post #20 of 21 Old 02-16-2012, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

Ok, but will my avr be able to pass a 4k signal through from bluray player (or pc, or some 2d 4k source) to the projector?

Currently the Blu-ray spec. does not support a 4K output nor anything higher than 1080p recorded content. Work on a next generation of Blu-ray that can support 4K video is reported to be in the works, but any such standard probably will not come out until perhaps 2013. So if you are asking if your currently AVR equipped with HDMI 1.4a inputs/output will pass 4K video from a future version of Blu-ray then the best answer is maybe (or maybe not). While it might be possibe if the output from the future blu-ray player is limited to 2D video at 24Hz with 4K resolution. However, most AVRs have on-screen displays and these will niormally be limited to 1080p max. resolution, and I suspect the only AVRs that might be capable of passing 4K/24 2D video would be those that have a mode that bypasses all internal video processing and does not attempt to generate an on-screen display of info (essentially just providing a pass-thru mode for the video).

In any case the next generation Blu-ray spec is not yet written and we may see a new HDMI spec. version (e.g., 1.5) to go along with a 4K Blu-ray spec. (just like we saw the HDMI 1.4 spec. come out along with Blu-ray 3D). I would not be surprised if these future specs allow for 4K 2D video at frame rates up to at least 48 Hz and also 4K 3D video (perhaps also at higher frame rates), either of which will require more bandwidth than supported by the HDMI 1.4a standard and devices, such as AVRs, built to that HDMI standard. We really don't know if the current HDMI connectors could support the required higher bandwidth if 3D and higher frame rates were to be part of the 4K Blu-ray system.

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post #21 of 21 Old 02-18-2012, 06:09 AM
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Ok, but will my avr be able to pass a 4k signal through from bluray player (or pc, or some 2d 4k source) to the projector?

I am pretty certain most if not all first round 4K Blu ray players will offer Dual HDMI outs. That would be most logical.

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