JVC 55/65U - needs anamorphic lens or no? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 145 Old 02-06-2012, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I am looking into getting either the JVC 55U or 65U for my new home theater room that is under construction. This is my first journey into the land of projectors, and am a little confused on one thing: do I need an anamorphic (panamorph) lens for the new JVC projector, or no? From what I understand, and please correct me if I am wrong, you can do the 2.35 wide format without it, but it will zoom in and lose brightness? How noticeable is the quality?

I am not against spending an extra bit to get the anamorphic lens, but I'm just wondering if it's worth it. If money was no real issue (hey, we can dream, right?), would you get the separate lens?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 145 Old 02-06-2012, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by x33z View Post

If money was no real issue (hey, we can dream, right?), would you get the separate lens?

Thanks.

Yes. You get to use all of the pixels in your PJ! But mandatory? No.

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post #3 of 145 Old 02-06-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:


I am not against spending an extra bit to get the anamorphic lens, but I'm just wondering if it's worth it. If money was no real issue (hey, we can dream, right?), would you get the separate lens ?

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Yes. You get to use all of the pixels in your PJ! But mandatory? No.

I agree. This is a tough question only for folks who haven't already taken the anamorphic lens CIH plunge. It would be very hard for me to abandon it, but I concede that it might be tough for someone to take the initial leap of faith. If I take the 55/65 leap, it will be with the lens.
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post #4 of 145 Old 02-06-2012, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x33z View Post

I am looking into getting either the JVC 55U or 65U for my new home theater room that is under construction. This is my first journey into the land of projectors, and am a little confused on one thing: do I need an anamorphic (panamorph) lens for the new JVC projector, or no? From what I understand, and please correct me if I am wrong, you can do the 2.35 wide format without it, but it will zoom in and lose brightness? How noticeable is the quality?

I am not against spending an extra bit to get the anamorphic lens, but I'm just wondering if it's worth it. If money was no real issue (hey, we can dream, right?), would you get the separate lens?

Thanks.

If money is not a concern, then I would pick the A-lens every time. With the lens, you get to use all of the pixels and you gain brightness. You can do CIH without the lens and many people do it and are very happy with this method, but clearly the A-lens is the better route to go. The down side is cost.

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post #5 of 145 Old 02-06-2012, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies. Will go with the lens.

Anyone know if the 55/65 outputs 3D through the lens? For whatever reason, I seem to recall the 50/60 did not, and read one place that the x5s would, but can't seem to verify this.
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post #6 of 145 Old 02-07-2012, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x33z View Post

Thanks for the replies. Will go with the lens.

Anyone know if the 55/65 outputs 3D through the lens? For whatever reason, I seem to recall the 50/60 did not, and read one place that the x5s would, but can't seem to verify this.

If you're using the projector to do the vertical stretch then it will not do 3D. From page 64 of the 55/65 Operation Manual:

"If a 3D signal is fed in when Anamorphic mode is set to A or B, Anamorphic mode is automatically turned off."

So, if you want 2.35 3D you'll need to get an external processor like a Lumagen or a BluRay player that can stretch the image like an Oppo.

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post #7 of 145 Old 02-07-2012, 09:24 AM
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Why do we have this from this page on the JVC Pro RS55 page in the 3D paragraphs?
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3D scaling is provided for use with anamorphic lenses. Additional buttons are now provided on the remote control to make 3D selection and adjustment easier.

JVC page http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/t...&feature_id=02
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post #8 of 145 Old 02-08-2012, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Why do we have this from this page on the JVC Pro RS55 page in the 3D paragraphs?

JVC page http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/t...&feature_id=02

I stand corrected - and JVC could stand to do the same to their operations manual!

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post #9 of 145 Old 02-08-2012, 06:45 AM
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I have an RS55, and I already own a Panamorph lens and a 2.35:1 screen. I have yet to install the lens because the lens memory feature works so well. I'm not seeing much brightness loss when switching to the 2.35 mode. I may try to install the lens this weekend and see if there is a significant difference. If so, I'll keep it. If not, do you want to buy an anamorphic lens?

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post #10 of 145 Old 02-08-2012, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I have an RS55, and I already own a Panamorph lens and a 2.35:1 screen. I have yet to install the lens because the lens memory feature works so well. I'm not seeing much brightness loss when switching to the 2.35 mode. I may try to install the lens this weekend and see if there is a significant difference. If so, I'll keep it. If not, do you want to buy an anamorphic lens?

Craig

We'd love to see your impressions of the two approaches with your RS55 in terms of all PQ factors that you can evaluate. Which Panamorph are you using? Is your screen solid or AT?
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post #11 of 145 Old 02-08-2012, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

We'd love to see your impressions of the two approaches with your RS55 in terms of all PQ factors that you can evaluate. Which Panamorph are you using? Is your screen solid or AT?

I have the Panamorph UH480 with the manual slide. The screen is a SeymourAV AT motorized 120" diagonal 2.35:1.

I have a very busy weekend, but I will try to get it mounted. I just had the projector calibrated on Monday and it looks SPECTACULAR. My previous pj was an BenQ W10000. The RS-55 is a HUGE improvement in saturation, contrast and brightness.

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post #12 of 145 Old 02-08-2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I have the Panamorph UH480 with the manual slide. The screen is a SeymourAV AT motorized 120" diagonal 2.35:1.

I have a very busy weekend, but I will try to get it mounted. I just had the projector calibrated on Monday and it looks SPECTACULAR. My previous pj was an BenQ W10000. The RS-55 is a HUGE improvement in saturation, contrast and brightness.

Craig

Thank you for the feedback. I think you are the first person I have seen using the RS55 with an AT screen. Is it the Enlightor 4K material?
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post #13 of 145 Old 02-08-2012, 06:03 PM
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Thank you for the feedback. I think you are the first person I have seen using the RS55 with an AT screen. Is it the Enlightor 4K material?

No, XD... although I am considering a new screen with the Enlighter 4K material.

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post #14 of 145 Old 02-08-2012, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

No, XD... although I am considering a new screen with the Enlighter 4K material.

You can see my full system in the link in my signature.

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Given the performance of your RS55 on the XD, I'm not so sure that the Enlightor 4K is needed.
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Given the performance of your RS55 on the XD, I'm not so sure that the Enlightor 4K is needed.

I am going to call them and get a sample of the screen material. We'll see...

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post #16 of 145 Old 02-09-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I am going to call them and get a sample of the screen material. We'll see...

Craig

I think Enlightor 4K will complete your system. I love the fact that it looks like a solid white unity gain screen. Give us a call when you are ready.

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post #17 of 145 Old 02-09-2012, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I think Enlightor 4K will complete your system. I love the fact that it looks like a solid white unity gain screen. Give us a call when you are ready.

As you know, though, their respective gain is different. Make sure you have enough mojo from your RS55 for the lower gain Enlightor 4K.
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post #18 of 145 Old 02-09-2012, 05:04 PM
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does anamorphic lens increase resolution (extracting more information from the source) or simply produces more light?

It seems only the latter; is it wrong?
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post #19 of 145 Old 02-09-2012, 05:12 PM
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does anamorphic lens increase resolution (extracting more information from the source) or simply produces more light?

It seems only the latter; is it wrong?

You are correct.

It can't extract what is not there. Gains are added brightness(10 to 15%) and maintaining on/off between 16:9 and 2.35:1(which is measureable but possibly not seen with the human eye).

Down side is scaling may introduce artifacts and the add on lens cannot be 100% transparent, thus is a filter of sorts, so not 100% of the detail exited by the projector's lens will arrive at the screen.
The add on A-lens will reduce ANSI CR.

But the gains may off set the losses for some, but not for others.

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post #20 of 145 Old 02-09-2012, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I think Enlightor 4K will complete your system. I love the fact that it looks like a solid white unity gain screen. Give us a call when you are ready.

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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

As you know, though, their respective gain is different. Make sure you have enough mojo from your RS55 for the lower gain Enlightor 4K.

Well aware, I have owned both. Craig would not have a problem lighting up a 120" diagonal 2.35 Enlightor 4K screen with his RS55, especially when he uses the A-lens.

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post #21 of 145 Old 02-09-2012, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

You are correct.

It can't extract what is not there. Gains are added brightness(10 to 15%) and maintaining on/off between 16:9 and 2.35:1(which is measureable but possibly not seen with the human eye).

Down side is scaling may introduce artifacts and the add on lens cannot be 100% transparent, thus is a filter of sorts, so not 100% of the detail exited by the projector's lens will arrive at the screen.
The add on A-lens will reduce ANSI CR.

But the gains may off set the losses for some, but not for others.

I guess this implies that the source is at sub-1080p resolution for 2.35 or 2.4x, say 1920x800.

But if the source is at 2592x1080, can one then do horizontal compression at the scaler, and stretch it back using the lens?

In that case it seems one gains both the resolution and the brightness, but again this depends on the resolution at the source.

Does this make sense?
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post #22 of 145 Old 02-09-2012, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Well aware, I have owned both. Craig would not have a problem lighting up a 120" diagonal 2.35 Enlightor 4K screen with his RS55, especially when he uses the A-lens.

Probably another good reason to hang on to the lens.
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post #23 of 145 Old 02-22-2012, 11:45 AM
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Re-posted from the main RS-55 thread:

I had 2 forum members over last night to help me evaluate the A-lens vs. Lens Shift. Both guys have JVC projectors and A-lenses in their own systems. One of the guys does video calibrations, and he had calibrated the projector a week before, but without the lens in the path. The other guy owns an RS-20 that was calibrated by guy #1. We spent some time adjusting the A-lens for improved geometry. We then spent considerable time going back and forth on various content that included both very bright and very dark scenes. There was some delay switching from the A-lens to Lens Shift due to the time it takes to shift the image with the Lens Shift function, so this was not a direct A/B of the images.

Nonetheless, we unanimously agreed that the A-lens was better. The image was brighter and more detailed. In bright scenes, the added brightness was readily apparent, as was the increased detail. In dark scenes, we primarily saw better detail in the "shadowed" areas of the image. The Lens Shift image, while VERY good, was definitely not as bright or detailed as the A-lens image.

In answer to the question: "Does the RS-55 need an A-Lens?", I would answer that, no, it does not "need" an A-lens, but it can certainly benefit from an A-lens. If an A-lens fits the budget, it will be an improvement over Lens Shift.

Craig

PS. The calibrator is going to come back soon to re-check the calibration with the lens in the path. We'll take some readings with and without the lens. I'll post back then.

PSS. What I'm calling "Lens Shift" is actually called "Lens Memory". Sorry if I caused any confusion.

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post #24 of 145 Old 02-23-2012, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Craig - Awesome, thanks for the info.
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post #25 of 145 Old 02-24-2012, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Re-posted from the main RS-55 thread:

I had 2 forum members over last night to help me evaluate the A-lens vs. Lens Shift. Both guys have JVC projectors and A-lenses in their own systems. One of the guys does video calibrations, and he had calibrated the projector a week before, but without the lens in the path. The other guy owns an RS-20 that was calibrated by guy #1. We spent some time adjusting the A-lens for improved geometry. We then spent considerable time going back and forth on various content that included both very bright and very dark scenes. There was some delay switching from the A-lens to Lens Shift due to the time it takes to shift the image with the Lens Shift function, so this was not a direct A/B of the images.

Nonetheless, we unanimously agreed that the A-lens was better. The image was brighter and more detailed. In bright scenes, the added brightness was readily apparent, as was the increased detail. In dark scenes, we primarily saw better detail in the "shadowed" areas of the image. The Lens Shift image, while VERY good, was definitely not as bright or detailed as the A-lens image.

In answer to the question: "Does the RS-55 need an A-Lens?", I would answer that, no, it does not "need" an A-lens, but it can certainly benefit from an A-lens. If an A-lens fits the budget, it will be an improvement over Lens Shift.

Craig

PS. The calibrator is going to come back soon to re-check the calibration with the lens in the path. We'll take some readings with and without the lens. I'll post back then.

PSS. What I'm calling "Lens Shift" is actually called "Lens Memory". Sorry if I caused any confusion.

It's logical that the brighter image will reveal more detail, it will also raise the black level.

To test this correctly(detail) the brightness of both with and without lens need to be equalized.

Run the projector in high lamp without and low lamp with the lens in place. All things being equal, it is impossible for the A-lens to bring out more detail, it's a filter and will reduce detail getting to the screen, what is being observed is increased brightness raising the black floor revealing the hidden detail, the lamp on high without an A-lens will do that too and without adding scaling artifacts , ANSI CR reduction or A-lens introduced distortions.

If a colour correction is required with the lens in place, 2 cal setings will be required one for when the lens in not in the lens path(16:9).....unless one wishes to keep the lens in place all the time and loose 25% of the horizontal rez in 16:9 material.

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post #26 of 145 Old 02-24-2012, 03:58 AM
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An A-lens can only reduce MTF (image sharpness) and contrast.
A higher gain screen is a much better way to increasing brightness than an A-lens as it does not reduce sharpness or contrast.
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post #27 of 145 Old 02-24-2012, 06:40 AM
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That's what I was saying in the other thread in which this info was posted. More image detail is only going to come from having the image a bit brighter (making detail easier to read by the eye) via the lens, not some inherent quality of "adding an A-lens."

(Unless, of course, some form of detail-enhancing processing is added when switching to the A-lens).
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post #28 of 145 Old 02-24-2012, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

An A-lens can only reduce MTF (image sharpness) and contrast.
A higher gain screen is a much better way to increasing brightness than an A-lens as it does not reduce sharpness or contrast.

If only someone would figure out how to make a higher gain 4K weave AT screen for those of us who need/prefer that.
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post #29 of 145 Old 02-24-2012, 10:39 AM
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The main advantage of an A lens for me is that the pixels remain smaller and less visible - I tend to notice pixels getting 33% larger when zoomed and as a comparison, I prefer the lens image. I'm not interested in the other advantages there may or may not be (depending on set up).

Depending on the pj set up, you might not necessarily gain any brightness - as you zoom an image, most pjs increase brightness but reduce contrast. I know of one JVC setup where there is no brightness advantage over the lens, so the image brightness is much the same for both. The owner prefers the lens btw.

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post #30 of 145 Old 02-24-2012, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

An A-lens can only reduce MTF (image sharpness) and contrast.
A higher gain screen is a much better way to increasing brightness than an A-lens as it does not reduce sharpness or contrast.

Obviously, neither an A-lens nor lens memory can "add" any brightness or image detail to the original image. Both an A-lens and lens memory will negatively impact the image for both brightness and detail. The A-lens + anamorphic scaling will have *less* of an impact on brightness and detail than lens memory with zooming.

A higher gain screen would be nice, but I'm not willing to give up acoustic transparency to get it.

Craig

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