RED 4K 3D laser projector = $10K - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

good report nice pictures thanks for the link.

that all sounds for me like they use a lcos chipset inside.

i hear in the past reports from people saw a lcos based laser pr. and they also
complain about the bad cr.

also the bad ghosting tell me there is a lcos inside.

A SINGLE LCoS, the HDI (still vapourware, both HDI websites are empty), dual LCoS simultaneous left/right 3D had good ghosting properties.
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post #272 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 11:44 AM
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I don't know if this a coincidence, but hdi3d. There website has been down for the last little while.
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post #273 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

I don't know if this a coincidence, but hdi3d. There website has been down for the last little while.

Either they can't compete or RED bought them, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the basic design of the RED projector http://web.archive.org/web/200912291...0Chronicle.pdf
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post #274 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 12:08 PM
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HDI3d announced last year they would start selling in Jan feb 2012.
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post #275 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost60 View Post

"And remember.. since we are shooting 24 foot lamberts you don't need it to be high gain. A higher gain screen improves the effects of polarization but also gets into all sorts of other issues like hotspots etc."

What does it mean?
Then my HP will work fine in 3D?

That means that the projector is very bright and you don't need a high gain screen to get good brightness for that reason.

High gain is often achieved by using aluminum particles in the screen matrix that works like diffuse mirrors that reflects the light. This is the same principle as a 3D screen but not taken to the same extreme. Angular reflective screens with a lot of metal particles like the Firehawk screen retain a good deal of polarization, something like 80% if I recall correctly. However you need to get much higher than that not to get into serious cross-talk issues. 3D screens retain 99% or so of the polarization. No regular screen provide this good preservation AFAIK.

The high power screen is not based on metal particles but on glass beads. It retains 0% of the polarization (measured by guys here at AVSF) and wont work at all in 3D with this projector (unless they include the option of active shutter glasses). In 2D it will work just fine.
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post #276 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 12:23 PM
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Someone asked on the red forum about screen recommendations and Jarred from RED responded "I would wait on that " Maybe they are looking into spectral filters? Maybe I'm just hoping for too much, I also hope that with 120hz they have some sort of CFI enabled for 3D.
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post #277 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 12:26 PM
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@ Drexler

Thanks , it is now much more clear.

I do not understand why RED chose the polarization.
For me it is the worst choice ever.
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post #278 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Eh, this is what comes out of the google translate; "I could not perceive the pixels. Ermanno even that was almost three meters in front of me, was able to perceive them."

Is this not correct translated from the Italian original?


Fully respect his knowledge, not critical to what he reports at all.

Seems like stuff got lost in translation. Didn't he say he was 8' from the screen? (that is less than 3 meters) and the other guy was 3 meters in front of him?

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post #279 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 01:30 PM
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Sounds like you need an appropriate screen to maintain polarization and that probably means a silver screen. These PJs are being developed for two different audiences, home and cinema theaters, using the same basic PJ/REDray player, just add more lasers and a different lens probably for bigger, cinema venues. Given that info and passive 3D, it only makes sense that these will only work with a Silver Screen for 3D. Get over it and upgrade your screen for 3D or go with a different PJ that uses active glasses. No one is holding a gun to our head.

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post #280 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

Sounds like you need an appropriate screen to maintain polarization and that probably means a silver screen. These PJs are being developed for two different audiences, home and cinema theaters, using the same basic PJ/REDray player, just add more lasers and a different lens probably for bigger, cinema venues. Given that info and passive 3D, it only makes sense that these will only work with a Silver Screen for 3D. Get over it and upgrade your screen for 3D or go with a different PJ that uses active glasses. No one is holding a gun to our head.

Or skip 3D altogether and use a white screen.
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post #281 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

HDI3d announced last year they would start selling in Jan feb 2012.

HDI has only shown 1080p LCOS-based laser projectors and they had estimated prices of from $55K to $80k. Doesn't sound like it could logically relate to Red's 4K projector selling for $10K.
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post #282 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 02:05 PM
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Ok, if my math is correct: 24' wide, 2.0 gain, scope screen, which Jim said they were getting 24ftL off of, that would mean the PJ was pushing out about 2200+ lumens. What do you think? Lumens that shouldn't decrease much over time either. I'm ok with that!

I also hope they have an active shutterglass option for it as well, although hopefully they'll be able to tweak it to reach 144Hz so that they could do at least 72Hz per eye for film sources.
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post #283 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

HDI has only shown 1080p LCOS-based laser projectors and they had estimated prices of from $55K to $80k. Doesn't sound like it could logically relate to Red's 4K projector selling for $10K.

Maybe they are the first company to be realilistic in their pricing with new technology... Lol.
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post #284 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 02:56 PM
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It will be interesting to read more reports from NAB.
They must show 4K 2D, that is logically what most people will use it for.
Also interesting to see if they can tweak the performance at the show.

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post #285 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holmern View Post


Seems like stuff got lost in translation. Didn't he say he was 8' from the screen? (that is less than 3 meters) and the other guy was 3 meters in front of him?

Emidio, the article writer, was at 8 meters while Ermanno, his friend, was 3 meters closer to the screen so at 5 meters.

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post #286 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TinToy View Post

Emidio, the article writer, was at 8 meters while Ermanno, his friend, was 3 meters closer to the screen so at 5 meters.

TinToy

Well I feel dumb. Thanks for the correction.

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post #287 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

HDI has only shown 1080p LCOS-based laser projectors and they had estimated prices of from $55K to $80k. Doesn't sound like it could logically relate to Red's 4K projector selling for $10K.

a main reason why ther laser lcos pr. are so high was the screen they use.

they have to vibrate the screen to reduce speckle from laser!

i guess that boost the price so high as the $55K and $80K comes so far i hear with a screen and this screen was very expensive.

red may found inside the pr. itself a good despeckle.
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post #288 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

Ok, if my math is correct: 24' wide, 2.0 gain, scope screen, which Jim said they were getting 24ftL off of, that would mean the PJ was pushing out about 2200+ lumens. What do you think? Lumens that shouldn't decrease much over time either. I'm ok with that!

I also hope they have an active shutterglass option for it as well, although hopefully they'll be able to tweak it to reach 144Hz so that they could do at least 72Hz per eye for film sources.

Well if the Benq LASER Projector is anything to go by, I arrived at a drop from 2000 to 1200 lumens in just over 5K hours. 10K hours is the specced drop down to a mere 70%. So, will have to see if the claims turn out to be real. For instance that Benq is specced and advertised at 20K hours, but that is at half power and a drop to 70% of original output. This unit is squarely geared at the classroom market, so a 1000 lumens at outset is not going to work, so specced but not advertised hour count is immediately cut in half.
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post #289 of 768 Old 04-17-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Well if the Benq LASER Projector is anything to go by, I arrived at a drop from 2000 to 1200 lumens in just over 5K hours. 10K hours is the specced drop down to a mere 70%. So, will have to see if the claims turn out to be real. For instance that Benq is specced and advertised at 20K hours, but that is at half power and a drop to 70% of original output. This unit is squarely geared at the classroom market, so a 1000 lumens at outset is not going to work, so specced but not advertised hour count is immediately cut in half.

Yes, but the benq uses a phosphor wheel, which decays over time. That is probably causing most of the light loss. Hopefully the RedRay does not.
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post #290 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

Or skip 3D altogether and use a white screen.

Absolutely, but that was already stated before my post. I was simply addressing the likely screen requirement for 120Hz 4K L/R passive 3D. That's something I'm looking forward to as an upgrade over my current JVC or potential Epson.

For some, spending $10K to get 4K and laser makes sense. For me, I need improved 3D to justify the upgrade since there's no commercial 4K movie source and my projectors rarely outlast one or two lamps before I sell and upgrade. For $10K, the CR/Blacks must be at least as good a JVC and the 3D better blow just about anything else out of the water. I also figure that by the time Red starts shipping these, Sony will be selling a VPL-VW1000 lite for less. Red needs to hit a home run to succeed as a newcomer to home theater projection and that's means great 3D, not just 2D. If I can get that from a Red and new screen, I'll buy one and change my screen.

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post #291 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

For some, spending $10K to get 4K and laser makes sense. For me, I need improved 3D to justify the upgrade since there's no commercial 4K movie source and my projectors rarely outlast one or two lamps before I sell and upgrade. For $10K, the CR/Blacks must be at least as good a JVC and the 3D better blow just about anything else out of the water. I also figure that by the time Red starts shipping these, Sony will be selling a VPL-VW1000 lite for less. Red needs to hit a home run to succeed as a newcomer to home theater projection and that's means great 3D, not just 2D. If I can get that from a Red and new screen, I'll buy one and change my screen.

I agree with most of what you put above and I bet most others do too. The problem is the silver screen in 2D and the that it will not provide (nearly) as good 2D picture quality as a white high quality screen with a gain not much greater than 1. If anything, a high lumen 4K 2D projector should be matched with a lambertian diffuser screen without any gain layer to get just this uber high resolution without any visible sheen/sparkier that are present with anything with a gain layer. So in order to enjoy the superb 3D this new PJ potentially provides one must be willing to take a step or two backwards with an aspect of 2D quality or complicate the HT setup (dual AT screen would be a pain) a lot with a dual screen.

Fully automated dual screen, like Stewart Daily Dual, costs more than this Red Projector does, takes space (for example I just do not have room for one) and even then one of the screens is a roller that is prone to developing screen inperfections. I've yet to see a few years old roller screen that has remained perfect to my critical eye.
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post #292 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 04:28 AM
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Sony will be selling there 4k for less this year they are trying to target 10000 for it
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post #293 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 06:02 AM
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Are there silver AT screens?
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post #294 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 06:25 AM
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Are there silver AT screens?

At least Stewart Silver 3D/5D can be microperfed for AT, gain loss is around 10% and viewing distance and "space between screen and speaker behind it" restrictions apply. AT + 4K are kind of not best friends as to really benefit the from the 4K you'd need to sit quite close ==> risk of seeing the perforation or woven texture increases.
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post #295 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

Sony will be selling there 4k for less this year they are trying to target 10000 for it

If this is true, then it will be my next projector
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post #296 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

At least Stewart Silver 3D/5D can be microperfed for AT, gain loss is around 10% and viewing distance and "space between screen and speaker behind it" restrictions apply. AT + 4K are kind of not best friends as to really benefit the from the 4K you'd need to sit quite close ==> risk of seeing the perforation or woven texture increases.

I have a En4k screen arriving any day now.. but didn't know there were silver AT screens. But like you said, most AT screens have viewing distance restrictions... which are overcome on the en4k... but it's not silver. Maybe screen excellence can figure out how to make a en4k silver option.
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post #297 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 08:21 AM
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Since the projector is able to do simultaneous 4k/120Hz passive, wouldn't that mean it should be able to also do active shutterglass at 120Hz per eye?
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post #298 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

Since the projector is able to do simultaneous 4k/120Hz passive, wouldn't that mean it should be able to also do active shutterglass at 120Hz per eye?

I would think 120Hz would mean 60Hz per eye...still quite good for active 3D
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post #299 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post

I would think 120Hz would mean 60Hz per eye...still quite good for active 3D

But they are doing simultaneous 4k/120Hz (i.e. no halving of resolution which is what most passive 3D displays do), they must be using two chips or something, that's why I figured it should be able to do 120 per eye.
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post #300 of 768 Old 04-18-2012, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

But they are doing simultaneous 4k/120Hz (i.e. no halving of resolution which is what most passive 3D displays do), that's why I figured it should be able to do 120 per eye.

Hmm...good question. I'm guessing it would depend somewhat on the imaging technology being employed.
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