RED 4K 3D laser projector = $10K - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 768 Old 04-20-2012, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

Have you guys seen the HT chairs Red is going to produce? I wonder if they will kick but.

No, but RED will soon announce a much less expensive mesh directors chair to save every editors' butt (graders already got the Aeron;-)).
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post #362 of 768 Old 04-20-2012, 08:52 PM
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From the HTM report

Also, the system was not completely dialed inwe were seeing 2K in each eye, and there was some obvious ghosting because there had been a last-minute switch to a Stewart 5D screen, which required some tweakingso the demo didn't look as good as it could have. Still, I hope to visit Red in the near future to learn more about the projector and player, which seem to be game changers in the world of home and commercial cinema.

I am always amazed how companies routinely roll out demos of ground-breaking technology at international trade shows covered by worldwide press and don't take the time to make sure that the demo is optimally calibrated and installed.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
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post #363 of 768 Old 04-20-2012, 10:00 PM
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Seems there is the opportunity to introduce a single light engined active 3D model for a lesser cost.

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post #364 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 01:09 AM
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How would 360fps it that is true number compare in color separation to 1-chip dlp? 360Hz will not flicker but is 120Hz for each color safe from obvious flickering? We must remember that 1-chip dlp flickers on two levels: 1 micro flickering from pwm to create color gradations, 2 color flicker per the color wheel

If you google abit there seems like alot of research has gone into high frame rate VA lcos.

What do you guys think of the outsider PLV, how cool is that?

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post #365 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

"there was some obvious ghosting because there had been a last-minute switch to a Stewart 5D screen"

Between that statement and the hints of RED telling people to hold off on looking for a good 3D screen, I think we will see an announcement soon about a screen made by RED

because of this i had order a stewart 5d sampel that i will compare with a true
ONLY silber screen i have.
i will be not surprised to see that the 5d will show not the same good
depolarisation a true native silver screen have.

as i do 30 years 3d and i test almost all silver screens that are on the market.

i see that every experiment to bring down the high gain from silver onyl screens with there typicaly 3.5 to 4.0 gain are result in have a screen that depolarisate more than other true silver screens.

the less real silver you have inside (to make a compromise to watch 2d as well and lower gain less hot spot) the more ghosting you will have.

i will soon know it for sure.

btw the content the show with the laser pr. make it hard to say how good color cr. and so on is.
so i think before we not can see any real material we can not rate picture quality.
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post #366 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

as i do 30 years 3d and i test almost all silver screens that are on the market.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W.Mayer, with all the experience you've had over the years with high-gain silver screens which one is your favorite and best ? Which one displayed the least amount of "sparkles" ? Which one had the widest viewing angle with the least amount of color/brightness shift from center to screen edge ? Any recommendations ?
Tx...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcos
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post #367 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiat View Post

MEMS scanning device (single mirror) is not possible (mechanical resonant frequency is not sufficient to reach the fps announced by RED).

Not sure what you mean; do MEMS only usefully operate at their resonant freq?

Let's see, even 24 fps X 2000 lines is 48 kHz; that is pretty darn fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Dunno if it's been posted, but here one more little report from Home Theater magazine on the Red demo:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/n...ojector-player

"What type of imager does it use? Red would not say, but I have it on relatively good authority that it's LCOS. I did confirm that it's a dual-imager, polarized-3D engine with 4K resolution".

If RED is interested in selling a lot, they'd make a single-imager 2K 2D version for less than half the price; that's what I'd be interested in.

Noah
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post #368 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 02:18 PM
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According to Pete Putnam, it is LCOS by HDI. He also says it has issues.
Quote:


RED, the makers of those cool video production cameras, apparently had some extra time and money on their hands and decided to roll out a laser-powered digital cinema projector. The design is based on a 4K LCoS light engine developed by HDI (High Definition Integration) back in 2009. Apparently RED acquired the company a year or so ago, and now wants to get into the projection space. No brightness specification was given, but the signage indicated it could light up a 15’ screen and would retail for less than $10,000. The demo showed some promise, but there are lots of things that still need attention (high black levels, low contrast, color accuracy, etc).

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/?p=2081

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post #369 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post


What do you guys think of the outsider PLV, how cool is that?

PLV?

L for laser, P? V?

If you mean the stackable external laser module, that's cool, would be cooler it each module could be dimmed if required and had a corresponding reduction in fan noise.

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post #370 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 03:10 PM
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A good read on the new 4K Red Projector

http://nofilmschool.com/2012/04/red-...tions-to-loom/
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post #371 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W.Mayer, with all the experience you've had over the years with high-gain silver screens which one is your favorite and best ? Which one displayed the least amount of "sparkles" ? Which one had the widest viewing angle with the least amount of color/brightness shift from center to screen edge ? Any recommendations ?
Tx...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcos

ups to explan all that in details i need to much time.

let me first test the new 5d.

but in general most silver screens that can keep very good polarisation have 3.5-4 gain.
less good polarisation means more ghosting and less sparkles.
less sparkles means more ghosting and so on.
so there is not any silver screen and may never will be that can do all very good.
red is a nice company they did nice cameras but they can not change physics.
may they will have some silver screen with less ghosting but than they have to deal with high gain and all the disadvantages this have.

the best is as so many people have different ideas about this all and are very different sensitive about this and that you do a test with some sample material yourself.

there is a reason why i use the Infitec filters for passive 3d.
but also there you have some very nice advantages over polarizer but also
some disatvantages.
all in all push me to infitec the new E system that is better than dolby3d for me.
thats for me much better than polarizer but so far there are not lasers for this system.
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post #372 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 04:19 PM
 
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I would be amazed if Red became a screen manufacturer. Likely they have some inside info from a screen manufacturer. I know of one gray non silver screen that has a higher polarization extinction ratio than Stewart 5D and that does not compromise 2D viewing which of course 5D does just as is compromises passive 3D by having a lower [polarization extinction ratio than a true siler screen. I am exploring whether the coating applied to such screen which does not cause repolarization to a significant extent could be applicable to a white substrate in the the vacinity of 1.0, giving a net gain of around 1.6. Such a screen would however require a minimum throw ratio of 1.6 to avoid hot spotting.
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post #373 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 04:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

According to Pete Putnam, it is LCOS by HDI. He also says it has issues.
The demo showed some promise, but there are lots of things that still need attention (high black levels, low contrast, color accuracy, etc).
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/?p=2081

Pete Putnam also tested the LCOS based Mitsubishi 9000
Quotes:
"This is Mitsubishi’s first foray into reflective imaging, and LCoS offers a much lower cost than 3-chip DLP engines.

3D projectors need lots of light to overcome all of the polarization losses in active shutter glasses, so Mits has equipped the HC9000D with a 230-watt short-arc lamp...

3D Brightness:
...That’s quite a decrease! Comparing the final 3D reading with glasses to the calibrated 2D reading without glasses, the amount of light that finally makes it to your eyes has decreased by about 87%"
-------------
The $25K Sony 1000 measured an 88% loss in the current Home Theater magazine review.

Pete also published a 9000 3D test pattern which shows typical LCOS crosstalk:


Full review:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/?p=1326
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post #374 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post


there is a reason why i use the Infitec filters for passive 3d.
but also there you have some very nice advantages over polarizer but also
some disatvantages.
all in all push me to infitec the new E system that is better than dolby3d for me.
thats for me much better than polarizer but so far there are not lasers for this system.

Wolfgang, since you also have the Sony 1000, I would be interested to hear how you think the 3D compares between the active Sony and the passive Infitec. Does one have better color quality or less crosstalk? Is flicker more obvious, etc.?

I've never had the chance to see the Infitec, and it sounds intriguing.

Thanks!

Mike Kobb
(Formerly "ReplayMike". These opinions are mine alone, and in no way reflect the opinions of employers past or present!)

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post #375 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post


Pete Putnam also tested the LCOS based Mitsubishi 9000
Quotes:
"This is Mitsubishi's first foray into reflective imaging, and LCoS offers a much lower cost than 3-chip DLP engines.

3D projectors need lots of light to overcome all of the polarization losses in active shutter glasses, so Mits has equipped the HC9000D with a 230-watt short-arc lamp...

3D Brightness:
...That's quite a decrease! Comparing the final 3D reading with glasses to the calibrated 2D reading without glasses, the amount of light that finally makes it to your eyes has decreased by about 87%"
-------------
The $25K Sony 1000 measured an 88% loss in the current Home Theater magazine review.

Pete also published a 9000 3D test pattern which shows typical LCOS crosstalk:

Full review:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/?p=1326

The crosstalk is the fault if the glasses mostly I would think or is that a shot of the screen without glasses image held on one eye ?

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post #376 of 768 Old 04-21-2012, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

I would be amazed if Red became a screen manufacturer. Likely they have some inside info from a screen manufacturer. I know of one gray non silver screen that has a higher polarization extinction ratio than Stewart 5D and that does not compromise 2D viewing which of course 5D does just as is compromises passive 3D by having a lower [polarization extinction ratio than a true siler screen. I am exploring whether the coating applied to such screen which does not cause repolarization to a significant extent could be applicable to a white substrate in the the vacinity of 1.0, giving a net gain of around 1.6. Such a screen would however require a minimum throw ratio of 1.6 to avoid hot spotting.

I think the RED projector will come pre calibrated to 'this' screen material, supplied by a 3rd party manufacturer, RED badged no doubt.

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post #377 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

Wolfgang, since you also have the Sony 1000, I would be interested to hear how you think the 3D compares between the active Sony and the passive Infitec. Does one have better color quality or less crosstalk? Is flicker more obvious, etc.?

I've never had the chance to see the Infitec, and it sounds intriguing.

Thanks!

you can not compare my 4k dlp set up that have this new infitec E 3d passive system with the sony vw 1000 but as i have at least for some time
two vw 1000 with infitec i can compare this setup.

so i compare here a single vw1000 with shutter(aktive) with a doublestäck vw 1000 with infitec E 3d system (passive).

-light out
the passive doublestäck have much more light on the screen.
i think at least double what a single set up with shutter have.

-gosting
the sony vw is very very ghost free 3d pr.but depends on the lens position you drive the passive doublestack vw 1000 with the infitec E system this system can have less ghosting.

please note that everyone that like to use the infitec E or the panavision 3d or dolby 3d filters should know that all this filters have big problems when the zoom ratio from the optic is below 1.8.
all the filters can not deal good with angular coming light.
in other words the more straight the beam from the optic in front of the pr. the better.
so use this is a problem as the sony as all other pr. loose light when you not use the max. picture size the optic offers.
but no way to use the around 1.3 factor this optic can do.
you can may mount the filters behind the optic that fix all the problems but than its fix inside you can not remove it.
that i will do with me big dlps in some months as i use them only for 3d since i have the sony vw1000.

-color
both set up can have good colors but color wave length filters can have problems.
you can found more i post already about a compare of the 3 systems here.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...346057&page=11
at post 220 you will found it and back there are also some nice infos and pictures about it.

-flicker
a passive set up with infitec E show not any flicker at all as both pr. project a normally 2d picture.

-4K ind 3D!
today 4k and 3d is not possible with one pr.so to show for sample some of my
3D slides in 4K you need a 2 pr. solution.

-3d motion
only a passive 3d system have bot (left and right picture) at the same time on the screen.
that's why motion in 3d looks far better with a passive display where both
pictures hit your eye at the same time and not one after the other.

over all a i prefer a passive system in 3d with 2 pr. over a single pr. solution
as you can read above.

when in near future some good working splitter that can split a 3d bd into
2 streams (left and right)without have this black bug the optoma box have comes to the market its a easy nice and good solution to buy a second pr.
put infitec E or panavison 3d or dolby 3d filters in front of the optic and enjoy this bright
flicker free picture with a normally screen(big advantage to not "must" use a silver screen)
only one disadvantage is there.
all this 3d filters have some reflection in the glasses that some people include me not like.
but thats one of the very rare disadvantages this system have.
all in all i think the best possible system.
if you like to read more use the link above.
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post #378 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

PLV?

L for laser, P? V?

If you mean the stackable external laser module, that's cool, would be cooler it each module could be dimmed if required and had a corresponding reduction in fan noise.

for a link to an explanation on PLV in a pdf, see at the bottom of the previous page.

Regards.
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post #379 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Pete Putnam also tested the LCOS based Mitsubishi 9000
Quotes:
"This is Mitsubishi's first foray into reflective imaging, and LCoS offers a much lower cost than 3-chip DLP engines.

3D projectors need lots of light to overcome all of the polarization losses in active shutter glasses, so Mits has equipped the HC9000D with a 230-watt short-arc lamp...

3D Brightness:
...That's quite a decrease! Comparing the final 3D reading with glasses to the calibrated 2D reading without glasses, the amount of light that finally makes it to your eyes has decreased by about 87%"
-------------
The $25K Sony 1000 measured an 88% loss in the current Home Theater magazine review.
Pete also published a 9000 3D test pattern which shows typical LCOS crosstalk:


Full review:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/?p=1326



So the HC9000D have around ( 635 x 87% ) = 80-100 lumens in 3D

but then the 1000ES will have ( typical 1600-1900 x 88% ) = 190 - 230 lumens in 3D

this is as expected over the double light output wich is much needed in 3D if you want brighter picture or/ + bigger ( and then you sure need a high gain screen too )

dj
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post #380 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 10:51 AM
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old specif of HDI pj = RED pj

So dual LCoS for sure (99% )

On the HT market, this approach can't be competitive with mono 2K 0.95" DLP with 3 lasers (360 fps refresh rate or more) and active 3D (Ansi CR, lum efficiency, life expectancy, ...). Such mono DLP pj could also be sell under $10000 with no problem with a pro optic.

RED made the wrong decision for the HT market with dual LCoS and passive 3D (silver screen ...).

And sorry, 4K is totally useless for screens smaller than 5 or 6 meters long if the optic in 2K is good. 4K is pure marketing...

Sony 4K 1000ES MTF is not as good as a 2K 0.95" DLP with pro optic...
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post #381 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiat View Post

old specif of HDI pj = RED pj

So dual LCoS for sure (99% )

On the HT market, this approach can't be competitive with mono 2K 0.95" DLP with 3 lasers (360 fps refresh rate or more) and active 3D (Ansi CR, lum efficiency, life expectancy, ...). Such mono DLP pj could also be sell under $10000 with no problem with a pro optic.

RED made the wrong decision for the HT market with dual LCoS and passive 3D (silver screen ...).

And sorry, 4K is totally useless for screens smaller than 5 or 6 meters long if the optic in 2K is good. 4K is pure marketing...

Sony 4K 1000ES MTF is not as good as a 2K 0.95" DLP with pro optic...

I think you completely misunderstand what Red is trying to do. While they may be releasing a HT version of the projector that's not the market they are after. They are trying to close the chain between creating movie content and displaying it at a cost that isn't prohibited. It would make no sense for them to release a 2k projector, they are trying to create a platform to display 4k content, using their 4k player and their 4k Camera. Again using this logic it doesn't make much sense to make the viewer active vs. passive these are meant to be scalable for Commercial use.

This could really add a bost to independantly owened Theaters. The fact that we can all join in on the fun for home use is just a bonus.
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post #382 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post


you can not compare my 4k dlp set up that have this new infitec E 3d passive system with the sony vw 1000 but as i have at least for some time
two vw 1000 with infitec i can compare this setup.

so i compare here a single vw1000 with shutter(aktive) with a doublestäck vw 1000 with infitec E 3d system (passive).

...

Thanks, very informative!

Mike Kobb
(Formerly "ReplayMike". These opinions are mine alone, and in no way reflect the opinions of employers past or present!)

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post #383 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

According to Pete Putnam, it is LCOS by HDI.

Yikes - so many have tried to master LCOS and failed.

Anyone know how HDI did?

Also, I don't remember seeing mentioned anywhere whether the Redray player plays BD's, and/or whether the pj accepts input from a BD player.

Noah
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post #384 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 03:06 PM
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The filmschool site's redray article mentions it started out as a dvd based player, but that RED has done away with optical media. It has HDMI inputs, so it should allow for ingesting/passing through BD Player output. Pictures show solid state memory card slots and an SSD slot on the pro version.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiat View Post

old specif of HDI pj = RED pj

So dual LCoS for sure (99% )

Here is an expert observation report of the HDI laser powered, dual LCOS system from 04/2009:
http://displaydaily.com/2009/04/08/h...ser-projector/
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post #386 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Yikes - so many have tried to master LCOS and failed.

Anyone know how HDI did?

If this shows out to be the HDI technology (like many are guessing it is) that should answer your question.
Quote:


Also, I don't remember seeing mentioned anywhere whether the Redray player plays BD's, and/or whether the pj accepts input from a BD player.

It doesn't have any disc format player, only SSD storage onboard.
You can attache any external player/playback source (disc player,PC or DCP/DCI server) to the input and you should be good to go.
Details on this and Red Pass DMR will be released in due course.

There are three different Redray player options. One Pro player, one HT playback player and the Redray player module inside the projector.
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post #387 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 03:30 PM
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and displaying it at a cost that isn't prohibited.

The problem is here.

Displaying correctly 4K on a big screen (pro market) is horribly difficult.

Ask Barco, Christie, Sony, ...

The RED pj won't do it. Sorry for that and sorry for RED (I haven't anything against this compagny).

So ok if the $10000 price is reached, there will be a huge price gap between RED 4K pj and its pro 4K competitors. That's nice for sure. But the gap in term of 4K pq will be also huge. Don't dream.

4K LCoS can't fight against actual TI 4K DLP (size of the matrix, sensitivity to light, CR ansi (very important), linearity, stability in time...).

A 4K picture projected via a 2K pro DLP pj (downsampling) with a pro optic will probably have a better pq than with the futur 4K RED pj...

It is already the case with the LCoS Sony 1000ES which is a "false" 4K pj because of its bad MTF which is hardly sufficient to correctly project 2K pictures... I hope RED will do better than Sony but unfortunately it won't reach the pq of 4K pro products manufactured by Barco or Christie.

On the pro market, passive 3D is also becoming a non sense... Good luck to RED to fight against this fact...
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post #388 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by epiat View Post

The problem is here.

Displaying correctly 4K on a big screen (pro market) is horribly difficult.

Ask Barco, Christie, Sony, ...



Quote:


The RED pj won't do it. Sorry for that and sorry for RED (I haven't anything against this compagny).

So you have already seen the finished projector which will probably not be finished in a year.
Time-travelling much?

Quote:


So ok if the $10000 price is reached, there will be a huge price gap between RED 4K pj and its pro 4K competitors. That's nice for sure. But the gap in term of 4K pq will be also huge. Don't dream.

It could be same quality as other 4K Lcos projectors like those from Sony and JVC, or better.
You dream. rest of us wait and see.

Quote:


4K LCoS can't fight against actual TI 4K DLP (size of the matrix, sensitivity to light, CR ansi (very important), linearity, stability in time...).

DLP is best, no doubt about it, but as long as Ti reserve their 4K DMD's for Barco, Christi and NEC (and Kodak/IMAX) it is not yet possible to make any thing 4K DLP for anybody else.
The Redray projector 3D technology might also not be transferable to DLP.

Quote:


A 4K picture projected via a 2K pro DLP pj (downsampling) with a pro optic will probably have a better pq than with the futur 4K RED pj...

... or probably not?
Lot of probably statements.
Good 4K projected from good 4K source is much better than 2K, even if it is Lcos.

Quote:


It is already the case with the LCoS Sony 1000ES which is a "false" 4K pj because of its bad MTF which is hardly sufficient to correctly project 2K pictures... I hope RED will do better than Sony but unfortunately it won't reach the pq of 4K pro products manufactured by Barco or Christie.

I leave it to owners of that projector to answer this, I think maybe they will disagree.
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On the pro market, passive 3D is also becoming a non sense... Good luck to RED to fight against this fact...

Ask Xpand how they are doing compared to RealD. I think your statement will prove to be nonsense.
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post #389 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 04:03 PM
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This could really add a bost to independantly owened Theaters.

In this specific case (projector working 12 hours a day, each day of the week for years), if you give me the choice between two pro pj like:

- 4K dual LCoS (passive 3D) + laser and silver screen

- 2K 0.95" mono DLP (active 3D) + laser and normal screen

I know which configuration I will take.

Price will be probably the same for both in a near futur.
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post #390 of 768 Old 04-22-2012, 04:34 PM
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Liquid cooled (at the back of the single DLP chip) projectors with a few K lumens designed for daily and even 24/7/365 use have been around for at least seven years, very proven technology, since Panasonic launched the 5000 series.
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