RED 4K 3D laser projector = $10K - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 768 Old 04-23-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

lcos+lasers and contrast
Both sxrd and especially d-ila has great native contrast. This will only improve with the use of lasers instead of lamps. The increase might not be as high as that for dlp but dlps starts at a lower native contrast. The reason RED´s lcos+laser might not excel at contrast will not be that lasers are not good with lcos. It will be since high speed lcos gives up contrast for higher frame rates.
RED: 360fps rather low contrast
Sony: sxrd might do 120 real frames per second at best with good contrast
JVC: d-ila 96? fps with great contrast

RED
It should be easier to converge 2-panels than three as with 3-chip DLP
That should give RED good resolution properties. If you are prepared to sacrifice light output I guess you could run it in "mono 2D" mode to get even better resolution.
With respect to color separation RED might run RGB in different order in the left and right channel to reduce color separation. Left: RBG , Right: BGR or some other order.

sstephen
The believed implementation is two lcos panels one for each channel.
Both panels are believed to color cycle at 360Hz, thus at any given moment each of your eyes will only see a single color.

So I'm taking from this a laser lit 3chip JVC Dila running at 120hz(up from 96 for 2013) will give RED type performance, with JVC's stellar contrast and no colour break up.....at least for 2D.

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post #422 of 768 Old 04-23-2012, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post


also the company that red buy show some demos and there as well people report about low cr.
if i remember right it was in the 1000:1 range but not sure.
so if i count all together i think as so many people report it its may right but to be honest i have no idea why lcos with laser have this low cr.

I read the 1000:1 CR figure as well, seems to a limitation of the Lcos chip that RED are using.

Interesting times, looking forward to what JVC can come up on the laser front for HT. They won't go backwards on the CR levels they have reached, we'll know in 5 or 6 months I guess.

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post #423 of 768 Old 04-23-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

I read the 1000:1 CR figure as well, seems to a limitation of the Lcos chip that RED are using.

Interesting times, looking forward to what JVC can come up on the laser front for HT. They won't go backwards on the CR levels they have reached, we'll know in 5 or 6 months I guess.

....and Sony.

I've given up hope on this projector. Every report online mentions low CR (Not good sign) and if they are using HDI LCOS, then it was reported as only 1000:1
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post #424 of 768 Old 04-23-2012, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

....and Sony.

I've given up hope on this projector. Every report online mentions low CR (Not good sign) and if they are using HDI LCOS, then it was reported as only 1000:1

Red is already claiming the CR will be greatly improved. I wouldnt expect anything like th JVC machines though. There seems to be a correlation between CR and refresh rate, plus red doesn't seem to have a automated iris . My guess is it will be around 5000:1 but who knows how it will shake out.

But lets aknowldege what red has done....Everyone is now waiting for JVC and Sony to release their own laser 4k projectors for 10k or under.......

so really what is there for anyone to complain about? pretty exciting if you ask me.
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post #425 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

....and Sony.

I've given up hope on this projector. Every report online mentions low CR (Not good sign) and if they are using HDI LCOS, then it was reported as only 1000:1

I agree. If Red only puts out 2,000 lumens and has low contrast, then why is it such a great product? You could buy an excellent JVC model LCOS projector or even a Epson LCD projector with excellent contrast for a fraction of the cost and enough money left over to buy more bulbs than you would ever use. The long lifespan of lasers is not enough unless it is competitive in price to bulb projectors and provides a better picture.

The new LEDs available these days makes me think maybe LEDs might beat lasers with better picture quality and even longer lifespan.
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post #426 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 03:10 AM
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Yep, i think this year will be great, many surprises from Laser and Led
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post #427 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 04:33 AM
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Does using a laser have the ability to GREATLY enhance the contrast level since unlike a lamp it is "off" on all pixels except the one (or however many pixels the laser spot covers at one time) being scanned? Sort of the way raster scan makes (or made) CRT contrast so high. Or am I misunderstanding the way a laser illuminates the panel?
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post #428 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

Does using a laser have the ability to GREATLY enhance the contrast level since unlike a lamp it is "off" on all pixels except the one (or however many pixels the laser spot covers at one time) being scanned? Are am I misunderstanding the way a laser illuminates the panel?

The laser is illuminating the whole panel and all the pixels at once. It can't single out pixels. The laser is a lightsource being modulated by the LCOS chip.

If you use a scanning laser then you dont use an LCOS chip, but scan directly. This way you can shut off the pixels completely. However, the resolution in scanning lasers are very limited. AFAIK
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post #429 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

The laser is illuminating the whole panel and all the pixels at once. It can't single out pixels. The laser is a lightsource being modulated by the LCOS chip...

...so the beam is going through a "spreader or defuser" so the spot covers the entire LCoS chip?
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post #430 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

...so the beam is going through a "spreader or defuser" so the spot covers the entire LCoS chip?

A lens I would suppose.
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post #431 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 05:09 AM
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Get in perspective
RED has real 4K imagers, not pseude as JVC. Sony has 4K at 25k$
RED has a built in auto calibration system built in
The light output is probably stable and calibrated close to 2000 lumen
Separate projection head and noisy light source
Built in 4K media player


What will hurt RED hor HT is the passive 3D that needs a silver screen.
However HT is not their intended market. They hope to get some additional sales from HT.

Thank RED for getting the ball rolling as Sony did with Qualia, Ruby and so on.

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post #432 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 07:24 AM
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Did I miss this somewhere of a definite release date? Or are we expecting the finalized product at CEDIA and then a release date ?
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post #433 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

Did I miss this somewhere of a definite release date? Or are we expecting the finalized product at CEDIA and then a release date ?

No definite date given AFAIK. Just the ambiguous "by the end of the year" target.

RED doesn't exactly have a good history of meeting delivery targets and prices; but they do deliver.
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post #434 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

Did I miss this somewhere of a definite release date? Or are we expecting the finalized product at CEDIA and then a release date ?

I think all that was said at NAB was they hope to have the projector available by the end of 2012. Given this consumer version is intended to be sold via direct sales from RED to customers, I doubt they will be at CEDIA, because that trade show is focused on dealers and custom installers and not on end users.

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post #435 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

Did I miss this somewhere of a definite release date? Or are we expecting the finalized product at CEDIA and then a release date ?

You probably won't see this at CEDIA unless Red changes their marketing tactics.
They hope to start production sometime late this year. Expect to see a more finished version at NAB next year and maybe some selective demo's before that.

The Red projector is not only a projector but the basis for a whole integrated distribution and delivery system for 4K.
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post #436 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

You probably won't see this at CEDIA unless Red changes their marketing tactics.
They hope to start production sometime late this year. Expect to see a more finished version at NAB next year and maybe some selective demo's before that.

The Red projector is not only a projector but the basis for a whole integrated distribution and delivery system for 4K.

Thanks for all the replies. I was asking this since I believe once this is viable product with respectable performance that Sony/JVC will also begin offering comparable with either LED or Laser and hopefully in a competitive price range.
But from this information I'm going to guess that the RED won't be in consumer's hands until early next year, and then offerings from Sony/JVC will begin to trickle in months following.

This just helps me plan my time frame for my next upgrade
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post #437 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post


Red is already claiming the CR will be greatly improved. I wouldnt expect anything like th JVC machines though. There seems to be a correlation between CR and refresh rate, plus red doesn't seem to have a automated iris .

Keep in mind that the laser intensity can probably be modulated quickly enough to get the dynamic contrast benefits of an iris. SIM2 does this with their LED machine.

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post #438 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

You probably won't see this at CEDIA unless Red changes their marketing tactics.
They hope to start production sometime late this year. Expect to see a more finished version at NAB next year and maybe some selective demo's before that.

The Red projector is not only a projector but the basis for a whole integrated distribution and delivery system for 4K.

I expect them to show it at IBC. I remember when, years ago, I had to point out to them that their '4K demo' was lacking 4K display. "doesn't exist", they told me. They had heard of the Sony SRX, of course, but there were no monitors they insisted, well just a short stroll down the Hall Astro was showing its shipping product based on the AUO 56" LCD panel...
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post #439 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 11:56 AM
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An additional thought on resolution
4K dlp will have better MTF than 4K lcos

If Sony were to use the same process for their cinema panel as they do for the panel in vw1000 then Sony would have an 8K digital cinema projector.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #440 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

I expect them to show it at IBC. I remember when, years ago, I had to point out to them that their '4K demo' was lacking 4K display. "doesn't exist", they told me. They had heard of the Sony SRX, of course, but there were no monitors they insisted, well just a short stroll down the Hall Astro was showing its shipping product based on the AUO 56" LCD panel...

Good story.

Somebody asked if they would bring the projector to IBC.
The answer was that they hadn't decided yet but that they would have some kind of presence there, which before usually meant someone from Red walking the floors showing off a camera.
They never had a booth there before AFAIK.

But their promotion strategy is changing, they just had what I believe is their first magazine print add, so anything can happen.
This is a compilation of a 3 page fold-out in the April issue of Vogue; http://red.cachefly.net/RED-VOGUE.pdf Photo by David Fincher, Model Roony Mara, shot on Red Epic.
Also just announced they are sponsoring a fashion photography contest with Vogue and Bottega Veneta; http://vogue.com/promotions/newexposure
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post #441 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

If Sony were to use the same process for their cinema panel as they do for the panel in vw1000 then Sony would have an 8K digital cinema projector.

and you talk about a true 8k pr.

btw:the next olympian games in london in some weeks have some 8k cameras there
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post #442 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 06:44 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enfvXcM8hLM

Red 3D Projector Nab video
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post #443 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 07:58 PM
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Doubt the Sonys and JVCs of this world are going to sit still, they too will need to have Laser Powered on their marketing blurbs......

.............bring it on!

May the success of a Nation be judged not by its collective wealth nor by its power, but by the contentment of its people.
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post #444 of 768 Old 04-24-2012, 08:24 PM
 
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All this new technology (or discarded then revived depending on your point of view) is risky to own and operate. For whatever reasons front projectors are, as a class unreliable.
Some members buy every new toy every few months and is fun to read how the beta testing is proceeding.

However I've been waiting patiently for both excellent 2D and bright, ghost free 3D performance in one reliable projector. We are almost there.

Laser light may be the latest buzz here but what matters with any solid-state lighting is the efficiency. Here Luminus has recently reached 120 lumens per watt. So the floodgates are about to open. Lets not forget that Samsung used Luminus Plattlight LEDs in their rear projectors 5 years ago.
http://www.luminus.com/news/041612%2...20LPW%20PR.pdf

Who else wants mature, reliable, proven technology with NO weak areas of performance? The hype has fallen on its own sword.
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post #445 of 768 Old 04-25-2012, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

They never had a booth there before AFAIK.

Red had a booth at IBC at least once or twice and presentations on the big screen as well.
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post #446 of 768 Old 04-25-2012, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Laser light may be the latest buzz here but what matters with any solid-state lighting is the efficiency. Here Luminus has recently reached 120 lumens per watt. So the floodgates are about to open. Lets not forget that Samsung used Luminus Plattlight LEDs in their rear projectors 5 years ago.
http://www.luminus.com/news/041612%2...20LPW%20PR.pdf

That's just white LED which are not used for projectors.
Quote:


Who else wants mature, reliable, proven technology with NO weak areas of performance? The hype has fallen on its own sword.

Laser technology is older and therefore a more mature technology than LED.

The reason that they have not been used in projectors before is partly because there's been no solution to Speckle.
But mostly because there has been no true direct-emission green lasers in small enough size that could be used in projectors, like in solid state, semiconductor or diode lasers.
The invention of Lasers in the pure green spectrum (gallium nitride (GaN) crystal) was done in 2008 and is just recently started mass production.
Diode laser packages are still expensive, but are expected to fall in price quite rapidly.

What will be interesting in future laser projectors are to what extent the basic well known design of projectors today will be changed/simplified when lasers are used for light source.
LED projectors have had to basically just stick to the lamp based design, but with lasers there are other possibilities as Kodak have shown.
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post #447 of 768 Old 04-25-2012, 07:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

That's just white LED which are not used for projectors.

It's seems intuitively obvious that single chip DLP can use a single white source keep the color wheel (starting with the LED driven pico projector revolution), or use RGB LED sources and eliminate the color wheel.
DLP does not depend upon polarization and the unavoidable light losses, unlike LCD or LCOS technology.
In any event Luminus has LEDs to suit either type of design:
http://www.luminus.com/products/white_23_3424701693.pdf
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post #448 of 768 Old 04-25-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

It's seems intuitively obvious that single chip DLP can use a single white source keep the color wheel (starting with the LED driven pico projector revolution), or use RGB LED sources and eliminate the color wheel.

One reason no DLP LED projector have used just white LED yet (except pico projectors) is because one benefit one chip DLP PJ manufacturers always wanted to find a solution to is to avoid the color wheel.

Another reason to not use White LED only is that they still don't have high enough Color Rendering Index (CRI), these Luminus White LED's have only a CRI of 70. But it is rumoured that some LED producers now are close to reaching CRI of 90.

RGB+White LED is the equivalent to a DLP projector with a white segment in the color wheel = presentation projector.
Quote:


DLP does not depend upon polarization and the unavoidable light losses, unlike LCD or LCOS technology.
In any event Luminus has LEDs to suit either type of design:
http://www.luminus.com/products/white_23_3424701693.pdf

Still too weak in RGB power compared to laser.

Lightloss by polarization in laser (when exempt the 3D part) is a non issue as laser can be had both as non-polar and semi-polar orientations and use a mix of those.
One solution for Despeckling laser light is to use several smaller lasers for each color with different polarization.
Lasers are also not so sensitive to ambient temperatures to keep color consistency as LED's.

Luminus is the sole deliverer of LED for projectors that are powerful enough for HT PJ's, while there is many Laser manufacturer (those that grow the crystal) and those that manufacturer laser packages.

LED for projectors have been available for many years, but there must be a reason so few PJ manufacturers have used them.
Have they been waiting for Laser quality developments?
Or are there other reasons?

Here is a overview of laser development and future marked predictions from 2010 (mostly focused on the Pico marked, but it's basically the same tech just scaled up for HT PJ); Green laser diode market $500m by 2016 as pico-projector market drives growth

I believe that as soon as the despeckling are perfected, new light engine and optics designs for Laser PJ's are developed and laser prices comes down a little, both lamps and Led's will disappear from the projector marked just because lasers are both simpler and more power scalable than other light source solutions.
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post #449 of 768 Old 04-25-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

LED projectors have had to basically just stick to the lamp based design, but with lasers there are other possibilities as Kodak have shown.

Is Kodak doing something different than illuminating a display chip with a light source, in this case laser?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

It's seems intuitively obvious that single chip DLP can use a single white source keep the color wheel (starting with the LED driven pico projector revolution), or use RGB LED sources and eliminate the color wheel.

CW w/LED is nonsensical because it throws away ~2/3 of the light, and the unneeded mechanical complexity which is easily replaced with electronic control.

Noah
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post #450 of 768 Old 04-25-2012, 03:38 PM
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I do not think the laser is polarized or at least when it gets to the light engine in the RED system as you cannot preserve polarity thru a large fiber light guide the way they are using it. the polarization must be done at the light engine if they are using a dual image LCoS system.
it would make more sense anyway to Polarize the light at the head unit and not the laser as you would have the same polarity going to both imagers. !

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