RED 4K 3D laser projector = $10K - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 11:30 AM
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I keep reading the term "game changer" over at Reduser. There is an acute sense of exhilaration about Odemax opening up a much more democratic platform for the distribution for original content. And it promises to put more profit in the pockets of the producers than the middlemen. What's not to love about that, except for those with a vested interest in maintaining the old, inequitable way of doing business? We'll see in the next year or so how well it works, but I'm pulling for them.

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post #542 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 11:55 AM
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The Red laser projector is a passive system, delivering up to 4k 3D (up to 4k to each eye at 60 progressive frames per second). That's phenomenal! I'm sold on passive 3D, as long as contrast is acceptable. If I can get bright, high contrast 2D and 3D with the Red laser pj, I'd even let go of my HP screen (by putting it in storage, at least). That's saying something! biggrin.gif I'd definitely have to see it first, though, since the one knock I've read is it has low native contrast. Hopefully, that's one of the areas they're improving during this latest round of delays. People keep asking about the Red projectors, but in sifting through the 55+ pages at Reduser all I could glean was that the professional projectors will begin to ship at about the start of the new year, with the home version delayed a "couple of months." That could easily be longer.

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post #543 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

As long as the Redr commercial theater projector can take a feed of present DCI servers, those theater owners will be able to purchase DCI content. If the Red commercial projector can only work with a Redray play or an Odemax me, it will be crucial for odemax have firm contracts in place with the studeos for content.
The RED cinema projector (the Crimson) RedRay player part can do DCI pass-through.
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post #544 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 12:00 PM
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I pre ordered! smile.gif

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post #545 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 12:02 PM
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Of course you did! biggrin.gif

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post #546 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 02:10 PM
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Of course you did! biggrin.gif

Is that not a good idea? eek.gif

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post #547 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 02:46 PM
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That's a trick question. How can it be a bad idea if you own a 4K projector? It can only be a bad idea if intellectually you reject 4k as it won't matter from your seating distance which is totally BS considering bit lemgth of the Redray serverver etc or you can't can't afford it you you delude yourself into think pseudo 4K (ala JVC) is close enough or upscaled 4k from 1080p is sufficient. Or maybe you should spend $1K or an Oppo instead. Not. I don't disagree that one will won't a 4K Bluesisn ray when it comes out at CES for I am guessing $800. But ir won't rival a DCI quality or close to it feed.

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post #548 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Is that not a good idea? eek.gif

Not at all! I was just reacting to you being, once again, one of the first in line for new tech. I wasn't surprised to hear it. smile.gif

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post #549 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

That's a trick question. How can it be a bad idea if you own a 4K projector? It can only be a bad idea if intellectually you reject 4k as it won't matter from your seating distance which is totally BS considering bit lemgth of the Redray serverver etc or you can't can't afford it you you delude yourself into think pseudo 4K (ala JVC) is close enough or upscaled 4k from 1080p is sufficient. Or maybe you should spend $1K or an Oppo instead. Not. I don't disagree that one will won't a 4K Bluesisn ray when it comes out at CES for I am guessing $800. But ir won't rival a DCI quality or close to it feed.


I'm willing to bet that e-shifted 1080p with true 4k inputs(possibly JVC 2014 models) will be near or impossible to tell apart from a true 4k panel with the same source.

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post #550 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 05:11 PM
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interesting, another potential format war on the horizon if H265 takes off. it looks to offer a similar CODEC feature set as the .RED format with better compression than H264, resolution up to 7680 x 4320, etc.

will studios takes sides, etc as was done with HDDVD and Bluray during the early years of 2K HD.
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post #551 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

I'm willing to bet that e-shifted 1080p with true 4k inputs(possibly JVC 2014 models) will be near or impossible to tell apart from a true 4k panel with the same source.
I was talking about this year's eshift two which is very very good. If a 4K input approach was chosen for next year it would require the current 1080p upscaling and processing plus new space consuming procressing to pull out two 1080p frames (that is throw away 75% of the 4K source pixels and perform hokus pocus to provide the overlap to create 4HD pixels. i think it would be much better to jetisn the eshift for 4HD inpus and to come to mark with a 4HD panel. a savings of not having to buy the 4K element and pay royalties would insue.i

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post #552 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 05:44 PM
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If the content is delivered online either codec could be used at the content distributors option I would think. A different situation is a disc like bluray were to be the consumer distribution medium and then we could have a war but I think we are rapidly approaching non hard copy distribution. Cds are pretty dead with mostly digital audio streaming, why wouldn't video follow suit? It already is by cable and satellite. Also films which are no longer being distributed on film.

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post #553 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 06:17 PM
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http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=3505

The .RED formats are for audio and video and are the only supported methods for 4K video and multi-channel audio. ODEMAX™ is for digital rights management to support the internet distribution model for this product. REDCrypt™ is used to encrypt the digital media. These proprietary methods of distribution are where the format wars are likely to occur between RED and Sony.

there could still be a format war even without the physical media if some studios pick a specific technology based on delivery, encryption, etc.

Hopefully they'll be smart and sign on with both so it doesn't stall the adoption.
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post #554 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 06:19 PM
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Yes, I don't think Red wants to get into a big fight with Sony over a consumer disc format. What they want to do can be a huge success without worrying about discs at all.

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post #555 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 07:29 PM
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Red initially joked ubout Redray being a disc playback system. The player does not support disc playback,only media. I suspect Sony will have a disc solution and will issue 4Hd or 4K dics. Tthe future of discs is short term, it just doesn't make sense anymore. The studeos can cutout everybody else and just establish their on online store by which users can order and pay for digital delivery. They could tell Amazon to go make love to itself. They could use odemax or others to do the streaming.

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post #556 of 768 Old 12-01-2012, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
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Not at all! I was just reacting to you being, once again, one of the first in line for new tech. I wasn't surprised to hear it. smile.gif

Cool. smile.gif

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post #557 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 05:19 AM
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http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=3505
The .RED formats are for audio and video and are the only supported methods for 4K video and multi-channel audio. ODEMAX™ is for digital rights management to support the internet distribution model for this product. REDCrypt™ is used to encrypt the digital media. These proprietary methods of distribution are where the format wars are likely to occur between RED and Sony.
there could still be a format war even without the physical media if some studios pick a specific technology based on delivery, encryption, etc.
Hopefully they'll be smart and sign on with both so it doesn't stall the adoption.

I can see the dangers here if Odemax has not acquired some distribution deals with at least some Hollywood studios before launch. It is possible that Sony in their usual way will "lean heavily" on the other Hollywood studios to block content to be distributed by Odemax. In the similar way they won the format war.

The problem the Hollywood studios would then face is a possible anti-competition lawsuit from Red and Odemax if the studios block the RedRay format but continue distributing movies via iTunes, Netflix, Vudu etc.etc.
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post #558 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

If the content is delivered online either codec could be used at the content distributors option I would think. A different situation is a disc like bluray were to be the consumer distribution medium and then we could have a war but I think we are rapidly approaching non hard copy distribution. Cds are pretty dead with mostly digital audio streaming, why wouldn't video follow suit? It already is by cable and satellite. Also films which are no longer being distributed on film.

 

Would the 4K movie be downloaded then viewed or streamed ?    I thought the reason we don't have DTS MA/DTHD soundtracks for streamed content was due too much data for current internet connection speeds. I assume the 4K video data would be even much greater, not to mention the addition of MDA sound formats for movies in the next several years.

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post #559 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 06:52 AM
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Most of such questions are answered on the Redray red forum. The movie would be downloaded into the Redray player memory and then playback from there. It could be played in real time but data streams often stop and lag for a bit and a storage buffer seems the best solutions for seamless playback.

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post #560 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 06:55 AM
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I can see the dangers here if Odemax has not acquired some distribution deals with at least some Hollywood studios before launch. It is possible that Sony in their usual way will "lean heavily" on the other Hollywood studios to block content to be distributed by Odemax. In the similar way they won the format war.
The problem the Hollywood studios would then face is a possible anti-competition lawsuit from Red and Odemax if the studios block the RedRay format but continue distributing movies via iTunes, Netflix, Vudu etc.etc.

A video war Its so exciting. I feel like a reverse arms dealer selling to both sides. Reverse? Yea I am buying from both sides. But costs are not that high and no one gets killed or even injured. God. I love Anerica.

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post #561 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 07:32 AM
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I think what is exciting is that fact that RED is pushing Sony and JVC etc, to get things moving faster then it was before. AT CES this year everyone should be ready for a treat. New Laser projectors a new 4k Blu-ray format, etc. And if they don't deleiver and the RED projector is as good as they are saying then Sony, JVC will loose all there sales to the RED projector.
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post #562 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 09:25 AM
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I think what is exciting is that fact that RED is pushing Sony and JVC etc, to get things moving faster then it was before. AT CES this year everyone should be ready for a treat. New Laser projectors a new 4k Blu-ray format, etc. And if they don't deleiver and the RED projector is as good as they are saying then Sony, JVC will loose all there sales to the RED projector.

You mean like the way Toshiba (another unknown small bit player) schooled Sony in the HD vs. BluRay wars? The potential sales that Sony & JVC might lose to the RED projector are too many digits to the right of the decimel point to make a difference. And has been previously stated, the display technology will be driven by the availability & distribution (read control) of the software content. For the masses, this is a razor/razor blade business.
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post #563 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

I think what is exciting is that fact that RED is pushing Sony and JVC etc, to get things moving faster then it was before. AT CES this year everyone should be ready for a treat. New Laser projectors a new 4k Blu-ray format, etc. And if they don't deleiver and the RED projector is as good as they are saying then Sony, JVC will loose all there sales to the RED projector.
why would JVC lose all sales? It's not like you can pick one up for less than $5k
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post #564 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 12:34 PM
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I see big potential in this player. For instance, if someone collects a lot of movies, like I do, buying extra hard drive space will make this product great. Since the size of the movies are around 16GB, compared to 40-45GB ISO files, I think it can replace htpcs. But it do depends on what movies you can get and the price of them.
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post #565 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

a new 4k Blu-ray format
Work on 4K BD has not started yet. In fact, a short while ago I contacted BDA about it and was told nothing has even been proposed yet. I have a feeling we won't see a 4K optical media format.

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post #566 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 03:13 PM
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I think 4K is arbitrarily expensive at the moment. RED is great at gutting markets like that. I hope they succeed and get this thing in customer hands.
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post #567 of 768 Old 12-02-2012, 04:47 PM
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Then I think Sony will market a server, perhaps rebranded, and offer 4HD content similat to the way it is doing it for 4K panel purchasers.

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post #568 of 768 Old 12-03-2012, 03:39 AM
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There have been some questions in other threads as to the reason the Red projectors comes with RedRay player inside. Some of the advantages is ease of use, the projectors will function as a media hub for Odemax distribution. It also makes it easier to copy protect material. But there is also another advantage.
The .RED encoded material can have a wider color gamut than what is possible in HDMI 1.4, and the projectors with the lasers also have a wider color gamut than lamp based projectors.
By having the player integrated in the projector avoids the restrictions of the HDMI specs. And you avoid restrictions and trouble with HDMI HDCP.
If the previous specs of the projectors is continued, the projector should be modular, so if a better version of the player (or the laser module) is made available, they can easily be swapped by the user.

There was some questions answered last night by Red Team member Stuart English that might shed some light on questions people might have. I gathered them here.
Quote:
Stuart English Red Team
Quote:
Is the redray for preorder for theater use as well as the home?
This unit is the standalone player and can be used in a wide variety of applications. In addition there are two laser projection systems - REDRAY Projector (consumer) and CRIMSON (theatrical); both of which include the same REDRAY 4K 3D engine, that will be formally introduced later.
Quote:
Am I right is assuming that the redray is 60fps 2d and 30fps 3d?
Actually no, a single REDRAY can provide video at 4K 3D at up to 60 fps per eye... whether your specific display can accept that will differ by manufacturer and model.
Quote:
For so many years HDcam codec was 8-bit 4:2:2 and it was 'good enough'...and indeed it still is in this country for a couple of broadcasters (by and large it's HD SR as the required deliverable). I'm sure everyone at Red has thought long and hard about what the data rate and bit depth ought to be along with the compression scheme -there's a trade off happening in exchange for such a low data rate. Perhaps in the future once .red takes hold as the 4K standard there will be an equivalent 'SR'.

Everything above is very reasonable based on past experience, but as for the assumed "trade off" - well you'll just have to come and see for yourself.

Our stated 12-bit 4:2:2 or 8 bit 4:4:4 output spec is actually the technical spec of the HDMI 1.4 standard at 4K and Ultra HD resolution...

... the actual .RED codec performance exceeds that.
Quote:
But, those are the very same specs listed on your website for the RR. How come .RED "exceeds that"? Can you elaborate, please?
We can only output what the HDMI format allows us to - i.e. 12-bit 4:2:2 or 8-bit 4:4:4 when we are talking about 4K resolution.

i.e the signal path in the .RED codec is higher resolution than that, we have to downsample to those allowed output bit depths.

This is one of the key reasons our RREncoder allows 16-bit TIFF as an input file format.....


There is a similar explanation with regard to why the specification for Color Space is REC 709....
Quote:
The other thing that troubles me is that the color space is only listed as rec.709. Why not XYZ color space? Why not something better?
Don't read a .RED codec color gamut limitation into this quoted spec. It's just reflecting the specificied gamma and gamut for Ultra HD displays ....

Quote:
So, do you consider this acceptable for D-Cinema projection?
Absolutely, that has been one of our key references; we often play .RED files via a Sony 4K projector onto our 40 ft screen as a QA test.
Quote:
So, if HDMI specs is what is constricting the ability to output a 12 bit 4:4:4 RGB, which will be ideal for D-Cinema, why was this output selected, as opposed to HD-SDI? I am a bit confused about what is driving this...
Um, you have to connect to the display using the industry standard connector. Even if we had used HD-SDI it wouldn't be any advantage as you'd have to convert ( at extra expense ) to HDMI to connect to the display / projector anyway ...

However in our CRIMSON projector, where we have an internal REDRAY player and full control over the signal path, the HDMI 1.4 specs for bit rate and frame rate and color gamut are not limitations, so we can use the full capabilities of the .RED file specifcation.
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Will the home projector have a built in REDRAY player also?
Yes Sir.

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post #569 of 768 Old 12-03-2012, 07:47 AM
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What is the expected on/off contrast ratio and lumen output for the base unit which they say will fill 15' screen?
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post #570 of 768 Old 12-03-2012, 08:31 AM
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Here is a nice summary of the RedRay player + Odemax platform.

No specs for the RedRay HT projector is given yet. The larger cinema projector CRIMSON will be released first.

RED shocks with Odemax 4K distribution platform and REDRAY home player
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