RED 4K 3D laser projector = $10K - Page 26 - AVS Forum
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post #751 of 768 Old 08-30-2013, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

Mark it is believed that Red bought out HDI3d. They had a working prototype which I saw about 2-3 years ago. It does use a true 3 laser system. It was a 2 chip LCOS system.

Its my understanding that each LCoS is used with the R-G-B being sequentially flashed (like a DLP with a single DMD) and the 2nd LCoS is used for 3D. Is that also your understanding of what Red is doing (I know they have not officially released any details or even acknowledged they are using LCoS chips)? Given the response time limitations of LCoS, I suspect there may be visible RBE since the rate that R-G-B can be flashed may be relatively slow. Haven't seen any real discussion of this potential issue related to the Red projector, but I raised the question on the Red User Forum about 18 months ago. Just something to watch out for if Red does show a projector at CEDIA.



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post #752 of 768 Old 08-30-2013, 06:53 AM
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I have never seen even the prototype of the Red projector nor do I have a clue as to the technology they will use. They have said 4K and have shown remote laser feed to the projector. I have read 2 LCOS type chips but really don't know. Years ago they said $10K for the consumer version causing market disruption, wait for Red, and now its years later and they are saying a commercial version first at mega bucks.

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post #753 of 768 Old 08-30-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Its my understanding that each LCoS is used with the R-G-B being sequentially flashed (like a DLP with a single DMD) and the 2nd LCoS is used for 3D. Is that also your understanding of what Red is doing (I know they have not officially released any details or even acknowledged they are using LCoS chips)? Given the response time limitations of LCoS, I suspect there may be visible RBE since the rate that R-G-B can be flashed may be relatively slow. Haven't seen any real discussion of this potential issue related to the Red projector, but I raised the question on the Red User Forum about 18 months ago. Just something to watch out for if Red does show a projector at CEDIA.



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I think you're right, Ron. This was my understanding of how the HDI technology worked. But they claimed the LCoS chips they were using were capable of updating 1080 times per second (with full RGB-RGB-RGB frames, DLP-like). IIRC, they also claimed that the native contrast of their system was in the 1,500:1 range - far lower than many home theater enthusiasts would want. I e-mailed them at the time about the contrast "issue" but never received a response. Somewhere in the back of my head, I seem to recall reading that LcOS can be made to switch much faster, but at the expense of contrast. I suspected that this was the core problem that HDI (and now Red) has not been able to solve.

Many of the Red faithful are pros, not consumers like many of us on AVS. I'm way outside my area of expertise here, but I'm guessing a 1,500:1 contrast ratio might not seem like a huge problem for an exhibitor in a commercial theater. That may be why they've always said the commercial version will come first. But what do I know? smile.gif

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post #754 of 768 Old 08-30-2013, 08:52 AM
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I think for commercial theaters a 1500 real contrast is about the upper limit. Christie has stated that with a true laser, above 1500 would be possible but given exit. lighting etc, exceeding 1500 would serve no useful purpose in a commercial theater. Of course speckle remains an issue with true lasers, One solution is putting small low excursion vibrators on the back of the screen material There is an interesting pod cast on Home Theater Geeks with a technology official from Christie. A little over 1 hr and worth watching.

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post #755 of 768 Old 08-30-2013, 09:46 AM
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Yes they flash RGB to 1 chip.

Here is the prism that HDI uses

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/03/hdi-3d-demo-engadget9582.jpg

http://semiaccurate.com/static/uploads/2009/09_september/HDI_IIID.JPG

http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/albums%2Fuserpics%2F10002%2Fhdi-3d-hdtv-chart.jpg

The reason to believe that red bought out HDI3d is all the things that where said on reduser forums.

The biggest clue was the stack-able laser source.
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post #756 of 768 Old 08-30-2013, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I think you're right, Ron. This was my understanding of how the HDI technology worked. But they claimed the LCoS chips they were using were capable of updating 1080 times per second (with full RGB-RGB-RGB frames, DLP-like). IIRC, they also claimed that the native contrast of their system was in the 1,500:1 range - far lower than many home theater enthusiasts would want. I e-mailed them at the time about the contrast "issue" but never received a response. Somewhere in the back of my head, I seem to recall reading that LcOS can be made to switch much faster, but at the expense of contrast. I suspected that this was the core problem that HDI (and now Red) has not been able to solve.

Many of the Red faithful are pros, not consumers like many of us on AVS. I'm way outside my area of expertise here, but I'm guessing a 1,500:1 contrast ratio might not seem like a huge problem for an exhibitor in a commercial theater. That may be why they've always said the commercial version will come first. But what do I know? smile.gif

LCOS chips can be made, like you said, at the expense of contrast. They adjust the thickness of the LCOS chip to allow faster response time. The thinner the chip is the faster it can "reset" which gives it a faster response time. But because the chip is thinner it doesn't block as much light so the contrast worsens.
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post #757 of 768 Old 08-30-2013, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

LCOS chips can be made, like you said, at the expense of contrast. They adjust the thickness of the LCOS chip to allow faster response time. The thinner the chip is the faster it can "reset" which gives it a faster response time. But because the chip is thinner it doesn't block as much light so the contrast worsens.


Yep - That's also my understanding of the trade-off in the LCoS design. There were some comments from when Red showed a prototype projector at NAB last year that the CR appeared rather poor with high black levels and if they keep the 1080 Hz refresh rate then this means one complete R-G-B sequence 360 timers per second or effectively the same as a 6X color wheel in a single chip DLP. If they could do that with moderately high CR then that might be OK, but if it still comes with low CR then it will not be competitive with the other HT projection technologies for just about any HT projectors that sell for $1.5K and up.

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post #758 of 768 Old 09-10-2013, 04:38 PM
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why wouldnt they just use DLP chips instead with an optical system like this, removes the need for polarizing prisms and the CR and refresh would be better. i know a bettr way to combine the two images with far less loss than traditional beam splitters.

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post #759 of 768 Old 09-10-2013, 05:02 PM
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why wouldnt they just use DLP chips instead with an optical system like this, removes the need for polarizing prisms and the CR and refresh would be better. i know a bettr way to combine the two images with far less loss than traditional beam splitters.

Production 4K DLP chips for consumer projectors are still 2 years away. Also Red purchased a small company making LCoS chips.

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post #760 of 768 Old 09-11-2013, 05:35 AM
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Ah yes 4k dlp is off a little ways , i originally thought this optical system was going to be a 3 LCoS system with dual imagers, that would solve the problem of CR and refresh rates.

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post #761 of 768 Old 12-28-2013, 11:14 AM
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Hi guys,
Any news about this Projector??
It seems on a dead line....
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post #762 of 768 Old 12-28-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Lupin 3rd View Post

Hi guys,
Any news about this Projector??
It seems on a dead line....

Everything I've read says they still plan to bring it to market eventually, they are just waiting for technology to catch up to their vision.
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post #763 of 768 Old 12-28-2013, 02:21 PM
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Red has made absolutely no statements about it in a long time. I have a vision of going to the moon and back for $10K. My money is ready. Red had a vision of bringing to market a 4K laser lit projector with a built in Redray for under $10K. My vision has a better chance of sucess than Red's. They have been tiotally silent about the projector for a long time now. They can't even ship fully working or mostly working Redray players. They are now 13 months late on that and the company, which in my opinion can not be trusted about coming product, has maintained that any new order for a Redray is expected to ship within 2 to 3 weeks. They have been saying that for over 6 months now. Its a dog with a lot of fleas and they don't know how to rid the dog of the fleas.
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post #764 of 768 Old 12-28-2013, 02:47 PM
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The player is probably the easiest to build and probably a done deal. They were beta testing some time ago. Personally, I think the problem is they have no 4k material to supply or sell. If they start shipping players without material to play it would not go over well. And I don't remember the specs saying it can play any other formats
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post #765 of 768 Old 12-29-2013, 01:25 AM
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Sure that has to be it. Are you kidding? Odemax has lots of content providers signed up but there are not enough Redray players out in the field to provide any revenue stream. The free plugin has been a problem. The rumor is they can't get the Redray to work in the functional manner it needs to and there are many software issues. Right now it appears that its use is limited to playing preloaded loops. Contouring has been reported. I have seen the Redray playing a preloaded loop on a JVC 4K panel at my local Avad and JVC used one to feed 4K to its 4K in eshift 3 machines at Cedia. One person on the Red forum site lauds the company for not delivering the product until its ready. I condemn the company for its lack of honesty in communicating to its preorderors and by trying to maintain an aura that the product is ready and will be shipped to all including new orders within 2 to 3 weeks and to keeping that statement on its product page. Company sales people say company management has received many complaints about that statement but refuse to do anything about it.

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post #766 of 768 Old 12-29-2013, 01:40 AM
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So far it looks like its just indie filmmakers who have signed with Odemax. Kind of feel bad for Odemax as they have content but Red hasn't delivered on their part so they are basically just sitting there with their ....

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post #767 of 768 Old 12-29-2013, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Red had a vision of bringing to market a 4K laser lit projector with a built in Redray for under $10K.
I do wonder how dumb these people are that they expose this "vision" to the public with no clear path to deliver on it.tongue.gif
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post #768 of 768 Old 12-29-2013, 06:02 AM
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Will be there.. after 2020. biggrin.gif

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