70+ inch LED LCD impact on projectors? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 70 Old 02-26-2012, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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When LED LCDs get as big as 80 inch alot of people with modest size screen might ask themselves why a projector should be the next new display purchase.

When the big flat panels were extremely expensive the projectors allowed for a much bigger screen at a lower cost.

What do projector manufacturers need to do to be competitive.

My top three list
1 Solid state light source LED or Laser is necessary. The uncertainty of the lamp must die.
2 Compete with picture quality from advanced video processing and color management
3 Go to 4K ahead of the flat panel displays

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post #2 of 70 Old 02-26-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

When LED LCDs get as big as 80 inch alot of people with modest size screen might ask themselves why a projector should be the next new display purchase.

When the big flat panels were extremely expensive the projectors allowed for a much bigger screen at a lower cost.

What do projector manufacturers need to do to be competetive.

My top three list
1 Solid state light source LED or Laser is necessary. The uncertainty of the lamp must die.
2 Compete with picture qualtiy from advanced video processing and color managmant
3 Go to 4K ahead of the flat panel displays

I am not sure of your point. A projector is already more competitive. Right now Sharp is the only one producing anything over 70". Their 80" has a street price of $4K still. I can get a projector and 92" screen or above for under $1500. Sony is the only one rumored to be making 4K content this summer. I would like to see 4K stuff, but in this economy is it a major concern?

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post #3 of 70 Old 02-26-2012, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Point being
Some people who were not willing to settle for a 50/60 inch screen might find 70/80 is big enough now that the asking price is no longer astronomical.
The projector market is already small and might get smaller still if they don´t kill of lamps to go with solid state light sources. LED is available for dlp projectors but the asking price is rediculos when you want something better than a 720p multimedia pico projector with a couple of hundred lumen.

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post #4 of 70 Old 02-26-2012, 01:08 PM
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You have to admit, there is nothing like a projector setup
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post #5 of 70 Old 02-26-2012, 01:20 PM
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Re the OP:

I was just pondering that question recently too. Just yesterday I was standing in front of the Sharp 70" screen and staring in disbelief at the price tag. That is, how low the price was!

It doesn't seem that long ago when Panasonic introduced their 65" plasma (and I think it was even 720p for the first one) and I totally lusted after it. Unfortunately, it cost something near $13,000 CDN at the time. Now you can get 70" and 80" incredible looking 1080p flat screens for a fraction of the price.

While many of us here have much larger screens, which make even an 80" screen seem small in comparison, most people don't own a projector with a huge screen, and don't have such comparisons. These 70" and 80" flat panels certainly can offer a "big screen" feeling experience, and without the type of commitments and caveats necessary for a great projected image - e.g. lights off, paying attending to room reflections if they are there, or buying a more expensive specialty screen that will keep contrast in ambient light conditions etc. Even IF someone spends a bunch of money on a projector and, say, a black diamond screen so as to reduce the "hassle factor" and be able to watch with some lights on, a flat panel will still outdo it in terms of preserving
contrast and image brightness. Also, people may in general sit closer to a "TV" than to a projection screen, and the immersion factor of a 70" or 80" image can feel very cinematic with such adjustments.

If prices keep going down, I can definitely see it taking at least some portion of the consumers who might have otherwise considered projection.

(I'm not interested myself, as I like a bigger image and have built a high performance room to get a great projected image. But lots of people would not go to such lengths).
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post #6 of 70 Old 02-26-2012, 01:28 PM
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I'll be happy when we can have 150" OLED displays. We have the 70" sharp at work that is used for tradeshows, it looks like a peanut compared to my 142" screen.

I agree it's closing in for those who opt for a smaller 100" screen, no need for light control, etc.
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post #7 of 70 Old 02-26-2012, 02:24 PM
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I have a 100in 16:9 screen in my theater room and a 77in 16:9 screen in my bedroom. The 100in is significantly bigger. I also have a 120in screen 16:9 screen in my living room, which helps make my 77in screen look even smaller.
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post #8 of 70 Old 02-26-2012, 03:24 PM
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I am with you Ohlson, on this one...
Last October i got really lucky and managed to "snag" a store-demo / like-new Runco Q-750D LED projector for less than 1/3 of msrp and i am very/very pleased with it, not withstanding its size and weight.
About one week after my purchase i walked into my local BestBuy/Magnolia store and there is a well-calibrated Sharp 80" LCD HDTV on display; I was mesmerized, i couldn't get my eyes off that sharp/bright picture, the excellent brightness and contrast levels, the overall image size, the fact that i had to move my eyes to within inches of the screen to see any pixel structure, etc; I just stood there literally frozen, thinking of the implications that for less than $5,000.00 i could bring home a 80" LCD HDTV, pluck it in place, calibrate it and enjoy such huge sized image as if i were using any other standard size TV without any worries concerning lamp replacement and all its incumbent maintenance problems.
Granted that i had waited for so long to buy a HDTV LED projector such as my Runco for those same reasons but i must say that i began to wonder if i had made the right decision after seeing that Sharp 80" picture, especially considering that in my case the largest size for a projection screen that i can fit properly in my HT room is at most 92" diagonal.
I am now unsure if i should consider spending another $1,000 ~ $1.500 for a new replacement projection screen to go with my Runco LED pj, OR, wait until this Fall when LG is scheduled to release its flagship 84" LCD HDTV with native 4k resolution (hopefully, LED backlght with full local-dimming) and then make my final decision as to whether i should sell the Runco pj and get the LG instead.
I imagine this LG 84" LCD HDTV will have a msrp of around $9.999,00 to go against the Sharp Elite 70" with a msrp of $8.500,00, but hopefully it will retail for less than that.
The only thing that made me feel better on my way home after that visit to BestBuy/Magnolia and seeing in person that 80" LCD image was the thought of how incredibly difficult it would be to re-package, move out of the room and ship that humongous box if the LCD panel ever needed repairs or if it came with too many stuck pixels that might require replacement, UGH...
IF you haven't seen that humongous 80" HDTV LCD image and are a videophile you owe it to yourself to do so; You might be shocked, surprised and mesmerized, just like i was...
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post #9 of 70 Old 02-26-2012, 06:52 PM
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I agree but we still have a ways to go at this stage. I'm betting the contrast on dark scenes isn't so good on the larger Sharp screens but if the price were comparable in the same screen size I'd go for a TV as well but a 70-80" TV at this point is a long way from a 100"+ screen.

When we can get an affordable roll down OLED screen we probably won't see too many projectors at that time.
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post #10 of 70 Old 02-27-2012, 12:35 PM
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Hmmm. Let's see... Come in through the side door, make a 90 degree turn, go down a flight of stairs, another 90 degree turn at the bottom of the stairs. Yeah, I'm sure I can get an 80" LCD down in my basement HT area. It'll probably just end up with a few hundred thousand dead pixels from being bent and twisted several times. I'm quite ok with my JVC X3 and little 80" Carada screen, thank you. Now, if that 80+ OLED roll out display does show up and costs less than my car, I'll take a look, but I'll likely be retired and on a fixed income by then.
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post #11 of 70 Old 02-27-2012, 12:54 PM
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What about the audio for a huge flat panel? Nice thing about screens is you can do AT and have optimal speaker placement like a commercial theater. If I were going bigger than 80" on my screen that's probably about where I'd want an AT so I can raise up the center channel and bring in the sides. Can't do anything like that with a solid flat panel.
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post #12 of 70 Old 02-27-2012, 01:06 PM
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Projectors are already a niche product as it is. No one building a home theater with a 110"+ size screen in mind is going to think about even an 85" panel. 100" panel? Well, that would look like crap unless it's 4k, or let's say 4X50" oleds, each one having 1080p resolution, seamlessly butted together.

The amount of pixels on a 1080p panel never change. To get a bigger panel, either the pixels have to get bigger, or spaced away from each other farther. Projectors have the luxury of "cheating" and smoothing pixels the way panel never could.

I do agree that a solid state light source is dreadfully needed for projectors. Set it up, calibrate it right away, and expect the exact same performance for 10 years straight. Maybe an instant "double brightness" mode for 3D or something.
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post #13 of 70 Old 02-27-2012, 01:13 PM
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I have a 63" Samsung plasma that is gorgeous. Super bright, super sharp - very "plasma" looking of course. However I highly prefer the look of my Sony VW95 on a 106" screen. It looks so much more cinematic if you know what I mean. In this respect I wouldn't opt for a large OLED even if it could be 106" unless it could deliver this same "feel" to the picture.
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post #14 of 70 Old 02-27-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I highly prefer the look of my Sony VW95 on a 106" screen. It looks so much more cinematic...

Yup that's the main point. A projector is for home theater. Anything else is just a "TV".
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post #15 of 70 Old 02-27-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Point being
Some people who were not willing to settle for a 50/60 inch screen might find 70/80 is big enough now that the asking price is no longer astronomical.

Sure, for people who would be willing to get a "TV" or who want a "TV", but that's the issue IMO, they're different markets.

IMO you just cannot build a home theater around a TV. Lots of people build/have very fine/nice media rooms with large TVs, but it's not a Home Theater.

Maybe if we can get wall-sized OLED, but by the time you get them that sized, I don't think they'll be "TV"s anyway, they'll probably need custom installation too.

Quote:


The projector market is already small and might get smaller still if they don´t kill of lamps to go with solid state light sources.

The projector market it about 1000x larger than it was just a few years ago thanks to the dramatically lower pricing. When I first started looking you couldn't get a home theater projector under $10k, now you can get pretty nice ones for about a tenth that.

As far as lamps go, I just don't get the animosity about them, what's the big deal? Sure I'd love an LED (Vango), but I really don't have any complaints about my Planar 8150's UHP lamp.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #16 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 12:12 PM
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I wish a company somewhere would design a 1080 ultra short throw projector to go with 133", 120", and 110" screens. They could have a screen company manufacture the screens designed expressly for ultra short throw projection. The light source should be lasers or the LED-laser combo currently favored by projector makers. If you only needed 3 to 4 feet behind the projector and a weekend of nailing 2 by 4s together, many people would build their own rear projection units in super size. Then you could trade up projectors while keeping the screen.
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post #17 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 12:25 PM
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One advantage of front projectors is that they don't have to permanently occupy wall space. Drop-down and pull-up screens are readily available. I suppose one could install a wall-sized flat panel on a hinge, though.

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post #18 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 01:10 PM
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I can't see any chance of replacing my theater projector with a flat screen LCD. On the other hand, if someone would come out with a 100" LCD/Plasma/Whatever flat screen for under $10k I'd immediately swap it out for my projector in my great room where we watch sports. I'd love to have a consistent picture whether the lights are off/on or the blinds are closed or anything. Unfortunately, the room is 20x20, so I really can't get away with one of those 80" jobs. Heck, even moving down to 100" would still suck as the screen right now is 120"
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post #19 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 02:56 PM
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I think the point is valid. At what point does the disavantages of a projector make up for the smaller size of a 70 or 80" LCD?

The projector drawbacks are, replacing expensive bulbs, washed out picture with ambiant light, 3D brightness and others that I don't even realize since I don't have a projector yet. I do have a 70" in my livingroom and love it. Actually had a 60" for a short time while I repaired my 70 and did realize there is a huge difference in actual viewing size.

I will go with a projector in my HT but I think 100" or larger would be needed to justify the drawbacks. And yes, you can get a projector and screen for $1,500 but will the picture be equal to that LCD? If so, then why are people buying projectors well north of $3,000 and screens over $1,000?
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post #20 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I have a 63" Samsung plasma that is gorgeous. Super bright, super sharp - very "plasma" looking of course. However I highly prefer the look of my Sony VW95 on a 106" screen. It looks so much more cinematic if you know what I mean. In this respect I wouldn't opt for a large OLED even if it could be 106" unless it could deliver this same "feel" to the picture.

I too have the 64 8000 samsung (tad better in my experience than the 63 8000). Sent in 3 63 8000s before getting the newer 64. But both are best plasma tvs I've ever had or seen by far. Just something about them verses the others makes them better to me. I also have a 70" sharp in the living room which is "ok", great for the price, but still just ok. Nothing will ever touch a good "front" projection setup! Even when the larger flat panels start coming out they will not match the projectors because of all the problems they have. Its either banding, motion blur, cloudiness, bad blacks, etc...the list goes on and on. Dont get me wrong, I love my 64 samsung and it has its place in my bar which has dark walls and ceiling along with dim lights but still light enough to do anything you would want to do. Then the 70" sharp is great in the living room with a lot of natural light but still has its faults which are many if you ask me but for the price worth dealing with for now.
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post #21 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 03:29 PM
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The projector is a dying breed. Who is going to dedicate a dark dungeon to a projector room, when the can just hang this 110" 4K LCD set in their living room and draw the window blinds. 120" is about max for most American homes and rooms. So projectors probably have another 8-10 years left until massive 120" 4K gets cheap enough to put them under.



http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/2...cd-screen.aspx
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post #22 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

The projector is a dying breed. Who is going to dedicate a dark dungeon to a projector room, when the can just hang this 110" 4K LCD set in their living room and draw the window blinds. 120" is about max for most American homes and rooms. So projectors probably have another 8-10 years left until massive 120" 4K gets cheap enough to put them under.

http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/2...cd-screen.aspx

I don't think a 110in 4k tv will be affordable even in 10 years.
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post #23 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Nothing will ever touch a good rear projection setup!

I never felt that way. I was always put off by every rear projection set I've ever seen, and that included most of the best digital versions, and many of the highly lauded CRT RPTVs. I never saw a RPTV that didn't obviously hot-spot and shift image quality with viewer position (which I hate), and which did not combine this with distracting "silk screen effect" of seeing the texture of the screen.

I felt even early Panasonic plasmas were more satisfying than RPTVs, for the added sharpness and clarity, perfect geometry, even illumination, unlimited viewing angles etc, all of which for me made for a more natural viewing experience.

I understand of course that the choice of which pluses and minuses one is willing to live with is subjective, as far as displays go.

BTW, on the topic of the OP, I was a flat panel fan for a long time. But once I started really investigating projectors (digital) what shocked me was how friggin' SHARP and detailed the images could be from a projector. It still amazes me now. When I'm looking at flat panels (at home or in stores, friend's houses etc) they look sharp for sure, but the image from my JVC often strikes me as looking at least as sharp and detailed, despite being much larger in size.
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post #24 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 05:28 PM
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There can only be a certain size before it just won't fit through your door, let alone around any type of corner. Wouldn't it be cool when flex OLED comes out and you can bring home your 120" TV in a roll like a poster?

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #25 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I never felt that way. I was always put off by every rear projection set I've ever seen, and that included most of the best digital versions, and many of the highly lauded CRT RPTVs. I never saw a RPTV that didn't obviously hot-spot and shift image quality with viewer position (which I hate), and which did not combine this with distracting "silk screen effect" of seeing the texture of the screen.

I felt even early Panasonic plasmas were more satisfying than RPTVs, for the added sharpness and clarity, perfect geometry, even illumination, unlimited viewing angles etc, all of which for me made for a more natural viewing experience.

I understand of course that the choice of which pluses and minuses one is willing to live with is subjective, as far as displays go.

BTW, on the topic of the OP, I was a flat panel fan for a long time. But once I started really investigating projectors (digital) what shocked me was how friggin' SHARP and detailed the images could be from a projector. It still amazes me now. When I'm looking at flat panels (at home or in stores, friend's houses etc) they look sharp for sure, but the image from my JVC often strikes me as looking at least as sharp and detailed, despite being much larger in size.

LMAO Sorry so sorry seriously just made you reply to that. I normally read over my post before submitting it but have a crack running down my screen and it makes it hard atm. I meant "front" not rear!
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post #26 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 06:00 PM
 
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80" Sharp 844 full back LED array with 3D for ~5K - and its just being introduced.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21832299
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post #27 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 06:15 PM
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For me it's two different markets... in my dedicated room I love having a projector. It just feels right and connects me to the days of cinema. The projected light is magical. Now in my den it would be a nightmare. For several reasons...
  • Noise
  • Required throw distance
  • Washed out image
  • Warm-up up time (before the image focusses)
Going forward (years) I can see projectors disappearing. I see panels (screen) you snap together to obtain any size you want. With the image wirelessly transmitted to the panels.
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post #28 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 06:33 PM
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Sorry I did not read this whole thread but I just wanted to say that when I heard the 70 and 80 inch sharps were coming my initial thought was it would indeed dent the projector market. After all the prices were cheaper than some mid level projectors.

Then I stumbled upon them at Co$tco the other day and i can honestly say they looked terrible. Not sharp at all. colors were bland and I dont think i would like it even if it were properly calibrated.
The projector market is safe for many years to come.

Jonathan
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post #29 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

For me it's two different markets... in my dedicated room I love having a projector. It just feels right and connects me to the days of cinema. The projected light is magical. Now in my den it would be a nightmare. For several reasons...

[*]Noise[*]Required throw distance[*]Washed out image[*]Warm-up up time (before the image focusses)

Going forward (years) I can see projectors disappearing. I see panels (screen) you snap together to obtain any size you want. With the image wirelessly transmitted to the panels.

I can see brighter projectors with shorter throw distances. There is already the Sony 1000 that can give you 2000 lumens and its 4K. Meaning bigger screens. Projectors are such a small market anyways and I don't see that going anywhere. Plus, an 80in compared to a 100in is a big difference. So, is they do make a 110in tv that is affordable, that just means that projectors will be cheaper. People who want a bigger experience will always make room for it. I highly doubt that a flat panel will be more affordable at the same size.

The reason projectors are being sold is because of the quality of the image they produce. I have a JVC RS55 and the picture is amazing. I have never seen an image look so good on a 120in screen. Watching a movie on a screen is like looking opening up a window and looking out of it. When I see that from a flat panel I would considered it. I love going to best buy and looking at the over priced TVs. None of them are suitable for me. I rather watch tv having a feeling of looking out a window rather than looking through glass
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post #30 of 70 Old 03-27-2012, 07:27 PM
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With LGs entry point for 55" OLED at $8k and 84" 4K LCD/LED out soon, I can see projectors becoming a harder choice for screens around 100" that requires a range of lighting.

Projectors will become progressively more niche or purely for dedicated theaters. I have a living room projector setup but if I could get an OLED 80" TV for under $10k I'd probably trade the extra 20" for the contrast.

I have to say, I don't like the Samsung phones OLED screens but the PS Vita's screen is amazing. I would take an 80" version of that over just about any projector

danieledmunds is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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