Projector for a Kuro Owner - Small Screen - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 04-18-2012, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a small HT setup in a spare bedroom that is roughly 13 x 15. I currently own a 60'' Kuro 600M and it gives me one of the best pictures I have ever seen. Black levels, contrast, and color accuracy are awesome and are a few of the things I care most about in picture quality. With that in mind I have been debating on getting a projector that will give me as close to a Kuro like picture on a bigger screen.

I have mostly been looking into used JVC projectors like the RS20 and RS25. The Epson 5010 is also on the short list, but the price is a little more than I would like to spend. I was hoping to keep the projector under 2K since it will be used only for movies which might be 3 or 4 a month. The Kuro will be used for watching TV, playing games, and watching the wife's movies.

I'm just looking for input to make sure I'm going down the best path and to also help me decide if getting a projector is worth the effort. Also, the biggest problem I can forsee right now is finding a screen at the size that will fit with my seating distance, limited room, and be an automatic tensioned screen so it can move out of the way of the Kuro. Seating distance would be roughtly 8 to 8.5 ft so according to THX I would need something like a 75'' screen and these are tough to find that small. I think something around 80'' wide total will fit between my front speakers.
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post #2 of 28 Old 04-18-2012, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateTTU View Post

I have a small HT setup in a spare bedroom that is roughly 13 x 15. I currently own a 60'' Kuro 600M and it gives me one of the best pictures I have ever seen. Black levels, contrast, and color accuracy are awesome and are a few of the things I care most about in picture quality. With that in mind I have been debating on getting a projector that will give me as close to a Kuro like picture on a bigger screen.

I have mostly been looking into used JVC projectors like the RS20 and RS25. The Epson 5010 is also on the short list, but the price is a little more than I would like to spend. I was hoping to keep the projector under 2K since it will be used only for movies which might be 3 or 4 a month. The Kuro will be used for watching TV, playing games, and watching the wife's movies.

I'm just looking for input to make sure I'm going down the best path and to also help me decide if getting a projector is worth the effort. Also, the biggest problem I can forsee right now is finding a screen at the size that will fit with my seating distance, limited room, and be an automatic tensioned screen so it can move out of the way of the Kuro. Seating distance would be roughtly 8 to 8.5 ft so according to THX I would need something like a 75'' screen and these are tough to find that small. I think something around 80'' wide total will fit between my front speakers.

So you have a top or the line TV and you want an entry level projector that will be as good or better.. see where I am going with this statement.. you may want to lower your expectations.

Also, what color are the walls ceiling and floor? Unlike your TV that produces light, the projected image is just reflection and the room color (reflected light) and other sources of light effect the image much more drastically than your TV.

When looking for a projector, you may want to focus on units with the lower light output due to the screen size. To much light will trash your blacks and with a small screen less light is needed to get the output required to look good.
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post #3 of 28 Old 04-18-2012, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

So you have a top or the line TV and you want an entry level projector that will be as good or better.. see where I am going with this statement.. you may want to lower your expectations.

Also, what color are the walls ceiling and floor? Unlike your TV that produces light, the projected image is just reflection and the room color (reflected light) and other sources of light effect the image much more drastically than your TV.

When looking for a projector, you may want to focus on units with the lower light output due to the screen size. To much light will trash your blacks and with a small screen less light is needed to get the output required to look good.

Ceiling - white
Walls - dark gray/blue
Trim - black
Floor - light carpet

Walls shouldn't cause a problem, but the ceiling might. Thought about painting it black as well, but in the end decided not to. That could change however. Doubt the wife would let me change the carpet, but if it causes a huge problem I can find a way.

You hit on the reason why I've been mostly looking at used higher end projectors. My friend has an Epson 3010 and it's ok, but not up to my expectations. From what I can tell the current line of JVC projectors (RS45/55) have minimal improvements over the ones I'm currently looking at so I was hoping it would provide me with a good image and still be in the budget I'm looking for. 3D is of no concern for me and neither is higher light output due to the screen size I'm looking at.
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post #4 of 28 Old 04-19-2012, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I asked a moderator to move this for me since most of the projectors I am interested in were originally in the 3K+ range. Just hoping for some feedback from actual users. I'm mostly interested in buying a used RS25.

My biggest questions really are if its worth the effort for such a small screen size and where to buy one. (75") I have to also keep in mind I will only use this for movies and let the Kuro take care of the rest. At my current rate that would be less than 100 hours on this in a year which is a big reason why I don't want to pay over big dollars for a new JVC.
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post #5 of 28 Old 04-19-2012, 12:20 PM
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A good used JVC or a "B-stock" of a more recent JVC model (if they become available again from the AVS Store) will come closest to providing the Kuro-like black levels and a very film like look for watching movies. If your room is 15 ft. long and assuming you can arrange for the viewing distance to be at least 10 to 12 ft., then you could go up to screen size to 100 inches, or a little more, as long as the 'screen wall' will accommodate it (i.e., no doors or hallways that cannot be blocked by the screen).

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post #6 of 28 Old 04-19-2012, 12:46 PM
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yea, with those dimensions, even 110" is doable pretty easily, i have a 110" in a similarly dimensioned room... i wouldn't go theough the effort personally for 75"...

@the op...

i had (still have actually) a 150fd (and a 111fd i never should have sold)...

my original plan when i first got a pj was similar to yours... that didn't last very long... the kuro lives in the bedroom now... the overwhelming real estate advantage won easily...

however, to get the picture close to "kuro like", you'll have to not only purchase a rather good pj, but you will have to modify your room to make the pj happy...

if you do those two things (along with a decent screen), you will not miss your kuro in the slightest (assuming you go at least 100")....

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #7 of 28 Old 04-19-2012, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. Seating is along the shorter dimension of the room so seat to screen distance is around 8.5ft. I could probably go up to 9, but that would be the absolute max right now. THX recommended around 75'' for that size. Perhaps this can be changed without too many problems, but I was more worried about eye strain if the image got too big. Is sitting that close cause anyone issues?

BTW, I can make some room adjustments as necessary. Walls are already very dark and do not relfect much light. I can paint the ceiling black if needed and maybe add a large dark carpet to cover a majority of the floor.
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post #8 of 28 Old 04-19-2012, 06:40 PM
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I had a Kuro 6020 years back and loved it and my fried tried swaying me over to front projection with his Epson 1080UB and it didn't cut it for me. When I saw a demo of an RS20 I went ahead and purchased the Pioneer version of the RS2 on closeout. The darkest scenes actually look a bit better on the Pioneer projectors than on the Kuro but with everything else the ANSI contrast of the Kuro's can't be beat giving the illusion of perfect black levels in many scenes. So yeah, lower your expectations somewhat and you will be very pleased as the JVCs have great contrast. You may even want to look into a Dalite High Power screen if you can mount the projector only several feet above your head. I am a black level fanatic and several years ago I sold my Kuro as movies just didn't cut it on the Kuro anymore on a 60" TV considering how good they looked on a much larger screen.
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post #9 of 28 Old 04-21-2012, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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That's good to get an opinion from someone else making this same jump. Thanks for posting.

Would the 8700UB be a decent option? I could get one of these in budget and still with warranty which is nice or would still looking for a used RS20/25 be a much better option? BTW, I'm not in any particular rush since I need to work more on my speakers first. I could wait till the next year models are announced and people start selling their used projectors to upgrade.
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post #10 of 28 Old 04-21-2012, 06:05 PM
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You know, I hate to suggest this, but you might want to take a look at the 70" Sharp LCD (or the Elite). I've not seen it and don't know anything about how it performs PQ wise.

Reason I say that is, well first, with say a $3k budget, you'll probably blow almost half of that on just the screen if you want a quality, tensioned, electric screen, which means you'll not have much budget left for a projector, so like some said above, you might have to lower your expectations of performance.

On top of that it wouldn't be "that much" bigger than a 70" LCD, and you'd be able to use the LCD for everything.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #11 of 28 Old 04-21-2012, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not that familiar with screens, but I was originally going to get this one or the 92" version if it will fit:
http://www.visualapex.com/Projector-...=TE84HC2&AR=HT
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post #12 of 28 Old 04-21-2012, 06:56 PM
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If you want a plasma like picture, deffinatly look into the HP screen thread. If your setup can handle the HP you will not be disappointed.
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post #13 of 28 Old 04-21-2012, 09:09 PM
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RS25 also has the adjustable fixed iris to help with your desired level of "blacks" best as you can adjust them from what you're used to, while RS20 doesn't.
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post #14 of 28 Old 04-24-2012, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Was there a specific HP screen thread you are referring to? Doesn't seem to be many threads in the screen section of the forum and I did not see a dedicated HP screen thread other than trying to bring back the Da-Lite 2.8.

It seems right now I need some help getting a screen so maybe I should start a thread over there, but before I do. Can anyone here recommend an under 1K manual or electric HP screen around 85"?
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post #15 of 28 Old 04-24-2012, 10:37 AM
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The old 2.8 High Power roll downs were under that but not tensioned. But they don't show minor waves at all when hanging from audience perspective. I would just assume the new material would be the same. Give AVS a call and see what they could do for you.
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post #16 of 28 Old 04-25-2012, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateTTU View Post

Was there a specific HP screen thread you are referring to? Doesn't seem to be many threads in the screen section of the forum and I did not see a dedicated HP screen thread other than trying to bring back the Da-Lite 2.8.

It seems right now I need some help getting a screen so maybe I should start a thread over there, but before I do. Can anyone here recommend an under 1K manual or electric HP screen around 85"?

I would get at least a 92" screen otherwise I would probably consider a Sharp 80" flat panel (even though it's no Kuro).

On the screen if you can do an HP screen and you don't mind a pull down I would get a Model C or a Model B screen. I've never used a Model B so I can't tell you the quality but the Model C's are great! With the high power screen you won't need tab tensioning because you won't seen the waves on the screen due to the way light reflects back at the projector's lens. My 119" Dalite HP Model C 2.4 gain screen was less than half your budget to give you an idea. If you are only going with a 92" screen you are only looking at a 1/3 of your budget with a Model C and even cheaper with a Model B. The closer your projecter's lens is the brighter the picture will be. My projector is roughly 2' or so above my eye level from the front row and the picture is nice and bright.

Here is the link to the Dalite HP thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...te+hp&page=124
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post #17 of 28 Old 04-26-2012, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I did not see that thread initially. Thanks for the info and those screen options seem like the perfect fit for my situation. It also looks like I can make the 92'' pull down screen work in my room. I'm glad these are actually a relatively cheap option compared to the ones I was originally looking into.
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post #18 of 28 Old 04-27-2012, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there by chance anyone local to the Dallas area who would be willing to demo a JVC projector for me? I've actually never had the opportunity to see any of these in person. It would be nice to get the chance before picking one up. Might be a long shot, but it would be great to find someone with a RS 20/25 and a high power screen.
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post #19 of 28 Old 04-28-2012, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateTTU View Post

Is there by chance anyone local to the Dallas area who would be willing to demo a JVC projector for me? I've actually never had the opportunity to see any of these in person. It would be nice to get the chance before picking one up. Might be a long shot, but it would be great to find someone with a RS 20/25 and a high power screen.

Though many find this setup excellent for appearing "plasma-like", it will not give you anywhere close to Kuro's blacks. Go with a 0.8-1.0 gain white screen for the best blacks and cover that white ceiling, oh, and try to go with a RS20 or later to give you better ability to calibrate.
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post #20 of 28 Old 04-28-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

Though many find this setup excellent for appearing "plasma-like", it will not give you anywhere close to Kuro's blacks. Go with a 0.8-1.0 gain white screen for the best blacks and cover that white ceiling, oh, and try to go with a RS20 or later to give you better ability to calibrate.

Kuro type blacks on the JVC projectors will only be seen in very dark scenes whether or not a high gain or no gain screen is used. I've had both and the difference in black levels is more apparent with a mixture of content. On an all black screen for instance the difference is only slight. However, the difference in how bright whites are is dramatic.
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post #21 of 28 Old 04-29-2012, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I was able to find someone with a HP screen so I can see if this is for me or not, but no luck finding anyone local with a JVC.

I use to have a CRT projector and a 110" screen about 4 years or so ago and it was great, but I had to get rid of it since my new place didn't have a room big enough for a projector of that size. I really enjoyed that projector and this Kuro has held me over great for a while, but I still miss the immersive picture a projector can provide.

Just curious, but does anyone know how well JVCs handle motion compared to regular LCD TVs or the Epson 3010? I have never seen a LCD tv that I liked and I helped a guy setup his theater with the 3010 and the motion on that would drive me nuts. While i love my Kuro sometimes its motion bugs me as well. Also not a fan of the common soap opera effect if that is on projectors as well.
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post #22 of 28 Old 04-29-2012, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateTTU View Post

I was able to find someone with a HP screen so I can see if this is for me or not, but no luck finding anyone local with a JVC.

I use to have a CRT projector and a 110" screen about 4 years or so ago and it was great, but I had to get rid of it since my new place didn't have a room big enough for a projector of that size. I really enjoyed that projector and this Kuro has held me over great for a while, but I still miss the immersive picture a projector can provide.

Just curious, but does anyone know how well JVCs handle motion compared to regular LCD TVs or the Epson 3010? I have never seen a LCD tv that I liked and I helped a guy setup his theater with the 3010 and the motion on that would drive me nuts. While i love my Kuro sometimes its motion bugs me as well. Also not a fan of the common soap opera effect if that is on projectors as well.

I've not noticed or been bugged by any motion on my Kuro whatsoever but I do notice odd motion on my RS20/HD750 from time to time. And if u find the motion on the Kuro off putting, then maybe DLP is the only way to go for u tbh.
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post #23 of 28 Old 04-29-2012, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I probably shouldn't have mentioned anything about the Kuro as I'm good with it. Just wanted to say that while I can notice it slightly on the Kuro this is good enough for me because it's rare and overall not that bad. I'm hoping for the same level of performance from a projector i get. I just can't handle any motion on any LCD TV I have seen.

I need to go see some of the newer DLP units. I'm not sure how they compare to DLP TVs, but I can see rainbows on those and that gives me a headache. I guess I just need to get a 3 chip unit!
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post #24 of 28 Old 04-29-2012, 03:20 PM
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Perhaps consider a screen mostly for 2.35:1 A/R and watch most 16:9 on the Kuro. You can "zoom" the projector to fill a 2.35:1 screen, provided you have enough room depth and the projector has enough zoom range. That way you can get a much bigger impact when using the projector.

As for motion, you need to clarify if it's strictly the frame interpolation that's the problem, or motion in general. The JVC's do not have as good natural motion as the DLP's, but I would personally not trade that for the the contrast the JVC's provide.
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post #25 of 28 Old 05-08-2012, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Decided to get a RS45, but I need help getting the screen to work. Wanted to get a Da-Lite Model C92" High Power. However, the projector is 472mm deep plus needs another 200mm behind it for cooling and the minim throw for this size screen is 9'2". Grand total of about 136.5 inches. I only have 130" at the most and this is already pushing it because the pull down screen will have to go over the tv stand no can't be dropped low enough for the center of the screen to be eye level. Right not it looks like the center of the screen will be 8.5 ft away and 7" up. Will this be ok?

If I can't fill the entire screen up will the leftover area cause any light to bleed over the image?
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post #26 of 28 Old 05-09-2012, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Scratch what I wrote last night. Mike from AVS told me they can manufacture a smaller 85'' screen for the same price as the 92'' so I'll probably go with that.

He did express some concern for just how bright this setup will be. His estimate was 40Fl which might be way too much for me. I think my TV is right around 30 so the projector might be too bright. To reduce the gain he suggested mounting the projector higher up towards the ceiling. Anyone have an idea of how far up I should mount it? Created a rough model and it looks like 2.5 ft above my head with the screen 8ft out in front gives an approximate 20 degree off axis viewing angle in the vertical direction. Here are some more measurements: 2ft = 17.5deg, 1.5ft = 14 deg.
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post #27 of 28 Old 05-09-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NateTTU View Post

Scratch what I wrote last night. Mike from AVS told me they can manufacture a smaller 85'' screen for the same price as the 92'' so I'll probably go with that.

He did express some concern for just how bright this setup will be. His estimate was 40Fl which might be way too much for me. I think my TV is right around 30 so the projector might be too bright. To reduce the gain he suggested mounting the projector higher up towards the ceiling. Anyone have an idea of how far up I should mount it? Created a rough model and it looks like 2.5 ft above my head with the screen 8ft out in front gives an approximate 20 degree off axis viewing angle in the vertical direction. Here are some more measurements: 2ft = 17.5deg, 1.5ft = 14 deg.

Ask Mike about the possibility of using a Neutral Density Filter along with the Manually adjustable Iris to tame the brighness if need be!


...Glenn
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post #28 of 28 Old 05-10-2012, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Good idea Glenn and yes Mike recommended doing just that. I ordered the RS45 from AVS and it should be here sometime next week, can't wait!

I'm going to wait on the screen until I get the projector in room and have a better idea of what size screen can fit.
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