Predictions for 2013 4K projectors - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 691 Old 04-22-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

So, would you guys guess that the new "VW100ES" coming out for way less than the VW1000 is similar to... the sony RUBY and the Qualia? when the Qualia came out, it was 20K and the ONLY 1080p sony projector, and 2 years later, the ruby came out, was ALMOST as good as the qualia, and half the price. Is this history repeating itself? Besides brightness, if the lens is NEARLY as good, what else does the VW1000 have over the new projector?

Sounds like a reasonable guess, but I doubt anyone knows anything definite at this point.
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post #452 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post


A projector with built in A-lens has to small of a customer base. The projector market is small enough, that I doubt a manufacturer wants to reduce his base even more.

Mike,

Very true, but I have auditioned several anamorphic rigs and for all of the expense, extra moving parts and general hubbub I just can't embrace the format. Also I've seen some very nice installations and it seems that a lot of material does not stand up well to the prisms and mirrors, resolution is blunted far too often.

That said, I'd love a game changing upgrade for my next upgrade cycle. 4K is a better version of what I have. The move from 720p to 1080p was greatly worth it but again it is a better version of what I already had.

Anamorphic 4K would be a big change in kind and degree. The first player to market with a native projector would own that niche and I predict that many users would eagerly embrace it. Perhaps after the 4K rung has been climbed someone will take a shot.

I'll be waiting.
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post #453 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post


A projector with built in A-lens has to small of a customer base. The projector market is small enough, that I doubt a manufacturer wants to reduce his base even more.


Mike,

Could you comment on the Sony VPL-VW1000ES? Right after I posted I read the spec sheet and dang, it has some form of anamorphic projection without external devices. I could
try to figure it out, or just ask an expert.

So what is the scoop?

Thanks
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post #454 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

So, would you guys guess that the new "VW100ES" coming out for way less than the VW1000 is similar to... the sony RUBY and the Qualia? when the Qualia came out, it was 20K and the ONLY 1080p sony projector, and 2 years later, the ruby came out, was ALMOST as good as the qualia, and half the price. Is this history repeating itself? Besides brightness, if the lens is NEARLY as good, what else does the VW1000 have over the new projector?

As per my earlier post, the projector reviews web page (that triggered the whole discussion on a number of forums and other web sites) about a VW100ES being a new 4K model, was in reality two year old information that appears to have been preliminary info in anticipation of when the VW1000ES was going to be released. While there may very well be a new lower cost 4K projector announced by Sony at CEDIA in Sept., it is not relateted to the old projector reviews web page that incorrectly mentions a VW100ES with 4K resolution. Maybe we should call the anticiapted new model "Sony 2nd Gen 4K" since we do not know what that new model (if it exists) will actually be called.

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post #455 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

Yes the replacement of the 95es will be 4k. Now that it has leaked I can say it is coming out later this year. The price point will be around 12,999.00(this may Change)

If the HDMI 2.0 spec is not release you will see it having display port and HDBASeT.

This is enough for me to think it's going to be real. The Sony rep (who is no longer w/ Sony) made comments about a major update to the 95ES before her departure.

hopefully they add in the lamp pulsing tech for 3D found in the 30/50/95.

early JVC info never leaks so it will be interesting to see if they are trying for 4K in Fall 2013.


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post #456 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Friendly Fire View Post

Mike,

Could you comment on the Sony VPL-VW1000ES? Right after I posted I read the spec sheet and dang, it has some form of anamorphic projection without external devices. I could
try to figure it out, or just ask an expert.

So what is the scoop?

Thanks

It has a zoom memory feature which lets you zoom to fill a screen aspect meeting the source aspect, The Sony also has a vertical stretch mode for use with anamorphic lenses. The mode stretches the vertical either 1.24 or 1.33 depending of the horizontal stretch done by the anamorphic lens. theis mode will not work with a 4HD or 4K input signal to the projector however.

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post #457 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Friendly Fire View Post

Mike,

Very true, but I have auditioned several anamorphic rigs and for all of the expense, extra moving parts and general hubbub I just can't embrace the format. Also I've seen some very nice installations and it seems that a lot of material does not stand up well to the prisms and mirrors, resolution is blunted far too often.

That said, I'd love a game changing upgrade for my next upgrade cycle. 4K is a better version of what I have. The move from 720p to 1080p was greatly worth it but again it is a better version of what I already had.

Anamorphic 4K would be a big change in kind and degree. The first player to market with a native projector would own that niche and I predict that many users would eagerly embrace it. Perhaps after the 4K rung has been climbed someone will take a shot.

I'll be waiting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

It has a zoom memory feature which lets you zoom to fill a screen aspect meeting the source aspect, The Sony also has a vertical stretch mode for use with anamorphic lenses. The mode stretches the vertical either 1.24 or 1.33 depending of the horizontal stretch done by the anamorphic lens. theis mode will not work with a 4HD or 4K input signal to the projector however.

Thanks Mark. smile.gif The vertical 4K stretch mode is not really much of an issue right now. In the future it could be, but also in the future, you will be able to add the Lumagen to take care of this and get some other added benefits, such as full CMS and the ability to do autocal.

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post #458 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 01:44 PM
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Who the hell needs 4k when we don't have enough colors yet? I almost can't stand dithering on BluRays with 8-bit color in todays home projectors. It wasn't an issue for me until I bought a projector and started seeing all the downsides of 8-bit on a big screen.
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post #459 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

Who the hell needs 4k when we don't have enough colors yet? I almost can't stand dithering on BluRays with 8-bit color in todays home projectors. It wasn't an issue for me until I bought a projector and started seeing all the downsides of 8-bit on a big screen.

At least the 4K UHD standard calls for 10-bit and 12-bit depth and also with expanded color space. If and when we get quality 4K video sources that do provide these improvements that will be a reason, beyond increased resolution, to go to 4K.

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post #460 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 03:48 PM
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My max budget would be around $4500. Any guesstimates of how long it would be before a JVC 4K would hit the streets? I have a chance to pick up a b-stock JVC eshift projector for 3K and need to decide soon. I'm really confused as to what to do. I sit at 1x screen width for scope and would love to see no pixels. I'm currently using an RS2 who's lamp needs replacement.

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post #461 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 03:51 PM
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They may bring a 4K unit by 2014 but it won't be anywhere near your price range. It's going to take quite a few years to get a solid performing 4K projector at the $4500 street price mark.

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post #462 of 691 Old 04-24-2013, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

My max budget would be around $4500. Any guesstimates of how long it would be before a JVC 4K would hit the streets? I have a chance to pick up a b-stock JVC eshift projector for 3K and need to decide soon. I'm really confused as to what to do. I sit at 1x screen width for scope and would love to see no pixels. I'm currently using an RS2 who's lamp needs replacement.

Thanks,
Tom

I wish they would finalize the new hdmi standard and we can get in on the pre order for a new 4k jvc for around that price or a bit more.
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post #463 of 691 Old 04-25-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I wish they would finalize the new hdmi standard and we can get in on the pre order for a new 4k jvc for around that price or a bit more.


I ran across the following statement from Consumer Electronics Daily (Feb. 12, 2013):

The HDMI Forum and its HDMI licensing agent have said little about why the HDMI 2.0 spec, which previously had been set for release Q4 or by CES at the latest, has now been delayed to sometime in 2013's first half. But we've learned from an executive at one HDMI Forum member company that HDMI 2.0 is due to be sent out for comment by this week and that the goal is for the spec to be finalized so that HDMI 2.0-compliant products can reach market in 2013's second half. That Apple joined the HDMI Forum sometime in the last six months helps explain one reason for the delay in HDMI 2.0, the executive said. Apple is a major supporter of DisplayPort, which is to computers and monitors

When the first products with HDMI inputs/outputs will be available really depends on when the HDMI chip manufacturers feel (or perhaps felt) that the draft spec. was complete and stable enough to go ahead and start serious development work for the new HDMI chipsets. We may have already passed that point if the above, now 2+ month old, story was correct. Based on other reports, including statements from Silicon Image, the largest manufacturer of HDMI chip sets, I would not expect large scale production of the new HDMI 2.0 chips until the first half ot 2014. However, it's possible that HDMI 2.0 (perhaps in a somewhat stripped down form) inputs/outputs might show up in a very few products very late in 2013.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

My max budget would be around $4500. Any guesstimates of how long it would be before a JVC 4K would hit the streets? I have a chance to pick up a b-stock JVC eshift projector for 3K and need to decide soon. I'm really confused as to what to do. I sit at 1x screen width for scope and would love to see no pixels. I'm currently using an RS2 who's lamp needs replacement.

Thanks,
Tom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

They may bring a 4K unit by 2014 but it won't be anywhere near your price range. It's going to take quite a few years to get a solid performing 4K projector at the $4500 street price mark.

As for JVC and 4K projectors. IF JVC were to produce a "4K-lite" projector by simply adding a 4K input to an e-shift based projector, these projectors could likely be sold with prices starting in the under $5K price range. However this is not a a full resolution native 4K projector and does not qualify to be called a Ultra HD projector as per the definition for 4K UHD defined by the ITU. However, there might very well be a viable market for such a product since native 4K UHD projectors are expected to sell for $10K and up for the 2014 models. This is kind of like going back a few years and buying a HDTV limited to 720p native resolution vs. one with native "full HD" 1080p resolution. Due to the lower price of 720p flat panel HDTVs and projectors there was a viable market segment for these products for quite a few years, until the prices for 1080p alternatives dropped down to more affordable levels (and of course we still have low end 720p products available today even with 1080p now being the mainstream standard). JVC might be able to establish a market segment, based on a lower price, for 4K-lite projectors. However, for models that sell for over $10K JVC will need to offer a native 4K UHD projector.



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post #464 of 691 Old 04-26-2013, 06:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Latest update on 4K on Blu ray:

"Today, the BDA, in a statement given to CNET, has confirmed that format extensions have been under consideration for some time, with a final recommendation expected later this year.

As part of its ongoing responsibility to maintain Blu-ray Disc as the premium platform for watching movies and other content at home, the BDA established a task force last year to study a range of possible format extensions, including those that potentially enable 4K content playback on Blu-ray.

Through the first quarter of this year, the task force solicited and received numerous proposals, and is now evaluating the various technologies.

The task force, which is comprised of representatives from BDA member studios, consumer electronics manufacturers and media technology companies, looks forward to sharing with and receiving input from content creators, and is expected to make specification and technology recommendations to the Blu-ray Disc Association board of directors later this year."

source:
http://www.cnet.com.au/blu-ray-set-to-make-4k-decision-later-this-year-339344088.htm
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post #465 of 691 Old 04-26-2013, 08:32 AM
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That's interesting news ! smile.gif

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post #466 of 691 Old 04-26-2013, 04:15 PM
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Thanks for the link -- sounds like a physical 4K format is certainly in the works!
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post #467 of 691 Old 04-26-2013, 05:54 PM
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This is indeed good news for the ones(like me) who are not too keen on the download onyl model....................two ways this can go(speculation).............1.Play from disk...........2. Data on disk , load to drive and play from there.........option 2 gives them the download option in the same box.

Option 1: 1 Double sided BD, 2 layers per side, with twin laser read head, one above one below...
Option 2: 6xBD drive will take approx 5 min to load to HD(100GB file).....but warnings,trailers,5min of pre entertainment could be loaded and played almost instantly, while the feature is loading in the back ground.

Either way or another....bring it on.

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post #468 of 691 Old 04-26-2013, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Either way or another....bring it on.

Great cheerleader movie!! I bet that will look great in 4k!! Heck, Universal hasn't even put this out on blu-ray yet. wink.gif

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post #469 of 691 Old 04-26-2013, 08:33 PM
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This is indeed good news for the ones(like me) who are not too keen on the download onyl model....................two ways this can go(speculation).............1.Play from disk...........2. Data on disk , load to drive and play from there.........option 2 gives them the download option in the same box.

Option 1: 1 Double sided BD, 2 layers per side, with twin laser read head, one above one below...
Option 2: 6xBD drive will take approx 5 min to load to HD(100GB file).....but warnings,trailers,5min of pre entertainment could be loaded and played almost instantly, while the feature is loading in the back ground.

Either way or another....bring it on.

Two more likely options for 4K UHD discs:

3. Use a 3 or 4 layer disc (the most recent BD drives, as used with PCs, can already play these as blu-ray data discs)

4 Use a new higher efficiency 4K codec (HEVC or otherwise) that can encode a typical 2 hour long 2D movie in 4K onto a two layer disc (if not the regular 50 GB version then the newer 66 GB extended version which became a part of the BD standard in 2010). Note that Sony's recent mention of needing 100 MB for a 4K movie with their initial service may very well be based on using h.264 as the codec (which can be used to encode 4K at 24Hz). However for the new BD standard for 4K, HEVC is the most likely candidate for a codec that provides much more efficient encoding while maintaining the same video quality. An ammendment to the h.265 standard planned for Jan. 2014 will add HEVC encoding for 4K up to 60Hz and also perhaps 4K 3D video.


My bet is the two above options (probably the capabilities of both) will be incorporated into the new Blu-ray standard that supports 4K UHD. I really don't see 4K movies beling limited to BD data discs for other than a short, interim period until the new BD standard is completed and implemented. Also I highly doubt that a two sided BD would be specified, nor necessary, by the new BD standard.

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post #470 of 691 Old 04-26-2013, 11:34 PM
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Two more likely options for 4K UHD discs:

3. Use a 3 or 4 layer disc (the most recent BD drives, as used with PCs, can already play these as blu-ray data discs)

4 Use a new higher efficiency 4K codec (HEVC or otherwise) that can encode a typical 2 hour long 2D movie in 4K onto a two layer disc (if not the regular 50 GB version then the newer 66 GB extended version which became a part of the BD standard in 2010). Note that Sony's recent mention of needing 100 MB for a 4K movie with their initial service may very well be based on using h.264 as the codec (which can be used to encode 4K at 24Hz). However for the new BD standard for 4K, HEVC is the most likely candidate for a codec that provides much more efficient encoding while maintaining the same video quality. An ammendment to the h.265 standard planned for Jan. 2014 will add HEVC encoding for 4K up to 60Hz and also perhaps 4K 3D video.


My bet is the two above options (probably the capabilities of both) will be incorporated into the new Blu-ray standard that supports 4K UHD. I really don't see 4K movies beling limited to BD data discs for other than a short, interim period until the new BD standard is completed and implemented. Also I highly doubt that a two sided BD would be specified, nor necessary, by the new BD standard.

Possibly....playback of 4 layer disks is no issue, but pressing yeild may be. Having a twin laser readed and depending how the data is arranged on the disk 2x data transfer may be possible, kind of RAID on optical(agree, unlikely to be implemnted) BD Data transfered to HD may be a good stepping stone to get the user familier with the download model

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post #471 of 691 Old 04-27-2013, 01:26 AM
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I am so ready and pumped for 4K. I skipped the 3D projectors altogether this gen. I am getting a new FP this fall and am wondering what I should spend on. If I could get a 4K for under $5 grand I would. Since it seems its not real 4K I am confused. How does the JVC even call itself 4K if it isn't. Is there a real difference in quality of picture of a 4K source going into it vs the sony one? I want the best bang for the buck.
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The 4 layer principle is known as BD-XL. I believe it was a Panasonic addition and is not part of the formal BD standard. I had previously suggested that BD-XL may be a good candidate for 4K, but it was also suggested that 120GB still wasn't enough for 4K. Perhaps in view of newer compression mechanisms, it is?
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post #473 of 691 Old 04-27-2013, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
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I am so ready and pumped for 4K. I skipped the 3D projectors altogether this gen. I am getting a new FP this fall and am wondering what I should spend on. If I could get a 4K for under $5 grand I would. Since it seems its not real 4K I am confused. How does the JVC even call itself 4K if it isn't. Is there a real difference in quality of picture of a 4K source going into it vs the sony one? I want the best bang for the buck.
The jvc projectors use an upscaling process that is similar to the 4K process. There is no 4K projectors under $20K right now but Sony is making a newer cheaper 4K projector this fall but its probably going to be $12K. Also, the last two jvc projectors I had, I didn't use the 3D really, maybe 3 movies but its mainly for 2D for me. So, just because they have 3D, you don't have to use it for 3D. No need to skip them just because it has 3D. I'm guess it will be at least 3 years before its $5k
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post #474 of 691 Old 04-27-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Possibly....playback of 4 layer disks is no issue, but pressing yeild may be. Having a twin laser readed and depending how the data is arranged on the disk 2x data transfer may be possible, kind of RAID on optical(agree, unlikely to be implemnted) BD Data transfered to HD may be a good stepping stone to get the user familier with the download model

You may recall that when Blu-ray discs were first relased in the spring of 2006, all discs were pressed as single layer because they hadn't yet worked out how to get high enough yields for 2-layer discs. The 2-layer disc didn't become widely manufactured until 2007. I suspect the same would hold true for 3 and 4 layer discs, in that it will take some time to work out the manufacturing process to achieve high yields.
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The 4 layer principle is known as BD-XL. I believe it was a Panasonic addition and is not part of the formal BD standard. I had previously suggested that BD-XL may be a good candidate for 4K, but it was also suggested that 120GB still wasn't enough for 4K. Perhaps in view of newer compression mechanisms, it is?

The BDA approved the BD-XL spec. in June 2010 and published the final several weeks later (as per BDA press releases/publications from July/August 2010), but as it currently stands it is only part of the official standard for blu-ray data discs and many recently BD-ROM and BD burners now support BD-XL discs. Here are a couple of links talking about this - LINK - LINK. The new blu-ray standard for video discs would have to bring in support for anything beyond two layers, but if specified to be consistent with the existing BD-XL standard then these recent BD drives should be able to read the 3 and 4 layer video discs. I suspect that with HEVC codec a 2-layer disc, perhaps the 66 GB version, will be adequate to encode a typical 2 hour 2D movie in 4K at 24 Hz. and with 10-bit depth depth (perhaps even 12-bit). However for high frame rate movies (48 Hz or 60 Hz), for 4K 3D movies if there every are any, and for exceptionally long movies then the 3rd or 4th layer will probably be needed.


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post #475 of 691 Old 04-27-2013, 08:43 AM
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Just outta sheer curiosity: When HD-DVD was around, I remember one of the points argued in Blu-Ray's favor was the higher possible storage capacity in the Blu-Ray format.
Had HD DVD won the day, would it have likely been able to handle the move to 4K? Or, unlike Blu-Ray, would this have forced a move to an entirely new disc format?

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post #476 of 691 Old 04-27-2013, 09:06 AM
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if HD DVD won, I'm not sure we'd have 1080P 3D movies. A number of my 3D movies exceed the size capacity of the HD DVD format.


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post #477 of 691 Old 04-27-2013, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Just outta sheer curiosity: When HD-DVD was around, I remember one of the points argued in Blu-Ray's favor was the higher possible storage capacity in the Blu-Ray format.
Had HD DVD won the day, would it have likely been able to handle the move to 4K? Or, unlike Blu-Ray, would this have forced a move to an entirely new disc format?

Hard to say for certain, since it all hypothetical at this point. However, the original selling point to the studios and disc manufacturers was it was based on DVD disc production equipment. It is hard to say if they would have been able to evolve the HD-DVD format to support enough additional layers or higher data density per layer as would be necessary to support the additional storage capacity for 4K video. It certainly would have been much more difficult for HD-DVD to have accommodated 1080p 3D and future 4K formats

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post #478 of 691 Old 04-27-2013, 09:45 AM
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if HD DVD won, I'm not sure we'd have 1080P 3D movies. A number of my 3D movies exceed the size capacity of the HD DVD format.

We might have had them but they would've just been compressed to 30GB or under which would not have been ideal. At the beginning of the format war I was for HD-DVD but I now am glad that blu-ray won because of the larger storage capacity.

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Toshiba submitted the Triple layer 51GB HD-DVD disc format to the DVD Forum in January 2007.
The 51GB disc was approved by the DVD Forum in September 2007.

HD-DVD would have had no problem with 3D, neither from capacity nor bandwidth. 3D format development had come much further on the DVD formats than BD at the time 3D became something of interest.

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However, the original selling point to the studios and disc manufacturers was it was based on DVD disc production equipment.
This was in fact also the real reason HD-DVD lost the studio support and the war.
Because BD needed new expensive and specialised equipment for replicating discs they would have control over production by only licensing/selling BD replicator machines to some very few trusted companies.
In that way they prevented BD disc pirating.

This was the real reason behind the support for BD and not any of the technical points frequently presented in the format-war discussions.
As a format HD-DVD was a much better and more logical (and "democratic") development of optical disc than BD, which was more about corporate control and politics than technical superiority.

Had the more open HD-DVD format won, with its much lighter licensing terms and more replicators, we would have seen much more interest for further development of the format, and not locked down between some few players overseen by Sony as with the BD format.
Maybe even Apple, an original BD supporter that never has released a BD product, would have contributed.

Steve Jobs summed up BD perfectly in 2008 when he was asked about why Apple didn't have BD products;
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt.
It's great to watch the movies, but the licensing of the tech is so complex,
we're waiting till things settle down and Blu-ray takes off in the marketplace."

I think BD has settled down in the market place now, but still no BD products from Apple.

He later supposedly expanded on this in 2010;
"He admitted that retrospectively he feels ashamed that Apple’s name is associated to Blu-ray,
as he thinks that BD supporting associations look today more like Mafia than anything else."
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post #480 of 691 Old 04-27-2013, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I suspect that with HEVC codec a 2-layer disc, perhaps the 66 GB version, will be adequate to encode a typical 2 hour 2D movie in 4K at 24 Hz. and with 10-bit depth depth (perhaps even 12-bit). However for high frame rate movies (48 Hz or 60 Hz), for 4K 3D movies if there every are any, and for exceptionally long movies then the 3rd or 4th layer will probably be needed.

It's important to remember that data rates don't scale as you might expect with higher bit depths and higher frame rates. In fact it's often quite the opposite. For example it actually requires less bandwidth for 10 bit video than 8 bit video. The way I've always thought of it is it's edges that take bandwidth, and with 8-bit video you get "a lot" of edges/quantization/banding that must be compressed, but with 10 bit there are less so it's more efficient. Atteme/x264 say 5-20% more efficient for their encoder.

I've thought of higher frame rates the same way, since the motion is more accurately captured, the motion estimation can be better so the net result is that 60fps takes much less than the expected 2.5x the bandwidth or 24fps you would expect just by number of frames.
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Just outta sheer curiosity: When HD-DVD was around, I remember one of the points argued in Blu-Ray's favor was the higher possible storage capacity in the Blu-Ray format.
Had HD DVD won the day, would it have likely been able to handle the move to 4K? Or, unlike Blu-Ray, would this have forced a move to an entirely new disc format?

I would argue that 4K Blu-ray is effectively a new disc format anyway. We're going to need new drives/players/software to handle it, though less of a jump than DVD -> BD.
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if HD DVD won, I'm not sure we'd have 1080P 3D movies. A number of my 3D movies exceed the size capacity of the HD DVD format.

Just remember that just because space is used, doesn't mean it's needed. That was one of the benefits of BD, you didn't have to put the same amount of effort into encodes since there was so much "extra" space.
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We might have had them but they would've just been compressed to 30GB or under which would not have been ideal. At the beginning of the format war I was for HD-DVD but I now am glad that blu-ray won because of the larger storage capacity.

Mike

I still wish they'd have merged, BD optical format, HD DVD logical format. BD-J is still the worst part of the format.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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