Predictions for 2013 4K projectors - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 691 Old 05-10-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Just remember internet/IP delivery does not mean (only) streaming. Kaleidescape is delivering full Blu-ray quality (and extras) movies via the internet now.

The "nice" think about not going for a physical format is it's easier to upgrade in the future.

Don't think things will be easy if physical formats go away. I'm sure the hardware makers will figure out ways to force upgrades also.

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post #542 of 691 Old 05-10-2013, 10:42 AM
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While it has been assumed for some time that Odemax would offer independently produced films at the start, I really doubt that they will be a success if that is all they have to offer for the first couple of years, especially given the high cost of the Redray player.
We don't know yet what is in the making and what might have changed in the last months. Just have to wait for announcements and launch.
Initially the RedRay player was only meant as a tool for filmmakers and not a consumer machine. Then Odemax came along. And after this combination was announced, a lot of other players came knocking on their door, from display manufacturers to VOD distributors that saw this as a possible solution to server their 4K products.

What is the results of that (if any) we don't know, but if it is something that will become popular, Red will have a big problem on their hands because they don't have the manufacturer capacity in their California Plant to produce Consumer goods the way a company like Sony can.
Which again will force them to outsource to China which will lower the price of the player significantly.

It was originally meant to cost $1000 (price now is launch price and will drop significantly later like all goods), and that is only $300 more than Sony's Player. And the Redray player is quite more advanced than the Sony player.
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As for content, Sony Pictures umbrella also includes Columbia, Tristar, Screen Gems, plus distribution rights for Revolution Studios and some titles from MGM and United Artists. So this is a good starting point for potential source material and it has been reported (one such report is HERE) that a Sony spokesman has said they are talking with other studios about distributing their titles in 4K. I wouldn't expect any further announcements from Sony concerning content until a press press release some months from now detailing the roll-out of the 4K distribution service.

.

We can do a lot of speculations on where 4K content will appear.
Sony obviously will have most 4K content available from the start, because they have been in the forefront of 4K movies to feed their 4K projectors and now TVs, even though I am surprised they haven't done more a long time ago.

We can also speculate on why they find it useful to build a 4K player to serve their 4K VOD network and sell it for $699 if the PS4 can serve the same function and have a lower price?

Sony is of course in talks with other studios to feature their 4K content on this network, but it would surprise me if any Hollywood studios would agree to join a network that served only one display manufacturers displays.
Such a thing would make the Studios enemies of all other display manufacturers and be a great hindrance for moving 4K forward.

I am quite sure that the Hollywood studios will take great care to not again lock themselves into some situation where their they will live with Sony as their overlord, they have quite enough experience with that from Blu-ray.
So any 4K VOD offerings from other Hollywood studios than Sony Pictures Group will have to find a way to offer 4K content on other platforms than Sony's (besides eventual 4K BD).

Then comes the question of the quality and type of compression codec Sony will use, and most important, the robustness of Sony's DRM, compared to other compression and DRM offers like RedRay.

Another "elephant in the room" that are seldom mentioned in connection to 4K content distribution and PS4 is what place the new XBOX will have in all this. Will the XBOX be a VOD server or not? We will hopefully get an answer to that May 21st, 2013.

In addition we see a move by the studios to start up their own VOD services, lately by Warner Bros. removing 1800 titles from Netflix to use as their basis for their soon to be launched VOD service Warner Brothers Instant Archives.

Interesting time for sure. cool.gif
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post #543 of 691 Old 05-10-2013, 10:45 AM
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That's not really what I meant, of course there will be hardware upgrades. But when you don't have to invest billions in creating a whole new physical format and the associated infrastructure to manufacture and distribute it, it's much easier (cheaper) to change things. It also allows smaller players to get in the game an introduce novel (niche) services.

Netflix has upgraded their streaming service many times since Blu-ray came out.

Kaleidescape (a small company) has started their own premium (full BD quality) digital delivery store/service.

If someone wanted to create a service that delivers 4k, 10bit, video with low compression, that's much easier (cheaper) to do, and would thus require a much smaller market if distributed digitally than if one had to develop all the infrastructure around a physical disc format.

It seems just about anyone these days can (and has) started up a digital delivery service, but it takes the likes of Sony and an association of other large companies to spin up a new physical disc format. And it takes years and lots of red tape to update that format (like adding 3D).

Of course there are other issues with digital delivery I'm not so thrilled about (DRM) but I do like the possibilities it opens up to innovation and serving niche markets.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #544 of 691 Old 05-10-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

I wouldn't assume that the PS4 will be upgradeable to playback BD4K. We don't know at this point if the possible new version of the format will require the new HDMI standard and/or a newer generation of BD drive.

The PS4 will most likely be a standard BD player with 4K only being available over the net. This is what the content providers are pushing for with the move to 4K. Its the hardware makers that are pushing the need for a 4K disc medium. Who will win the standard battle? Time to get some popcorn and watch.

The reality is that 4K will need to be more than just a resolution increase. The idea of considering 4K streaming a real quality solution is laughable at best and downright absurd at worst. We all know that the streaming solutions bitstarve the streams to fit into the bandwidth constraints of the server farms, the backbone of the internet, and the actual ISP speeds the end user can receive. Most 'HD' streams are being squezzed into 4-8Mbps streams. These are the same data rates that DVD needed to do standard def in watchable quality. Now sure we have some better codecs available, but essentially what you are seeing with those 'HD' streams is what would have gotten from the DVD successor had their been no competition from true HD formats. Warner Brothers initially wanted to use a DVD9 with H.264 encoding.

Just because the streaming services call it 'HD' with a flag for decoding it to 1080 resolution does not mean its really the best quality 1080 image. IOW all HD/1080 is not created equally.

From what we have seen of quality from the streaming services I have little faith that 4K is going to be any better because again you have all the limitations in the infrastructure for delivering a truly high quality product.

Now with the possiblity for a newer BD spec I hope the powers that be realize that taking a BD50 and using the newer compression standards is not going to cut it. That's a quick easy band-aid much like Warner wanted to do when HD discs were first being proposed.

We need the following for a truly high quality 4K product:
1. A larger disc capacity, BD100/BD200.
2. Increase in data bandwidth
3. Newer codecs efficient codecs
4. Support for newer film formats 3D @ 48fps or higher
5. Larger bitdepth in the encoding
6. Support for HDMI 2.0 to be able to send the signal to display devices uncompromised

Now whether this happens remains to be seen. The real question though... it the consumer really clamoring for 4K.

I have a projector setup and HD/1080 is essentially what digital cinema refers to as 2K. I really don't find myself being pulled out of movie when viewing a BD at 100 inches from 10 feet away because the format couldn't deliver the goods. I tried watching a few DVD after getting accustomed to BD/HD at that screen size. DVD just looked terrible. I really doubt that I will ever consider a quality transfered BD terrible at large screen sizes even if I get used to 4K displays.

Look I am for technology marching on, but some part of me thinks that these higher resolution formats should stay in the market space they were designed for... the commercial venues. I am already hearing some tech heads say pass over 4K because 8K is coming. Seriously, 4K is on the verge of barely being distinguishable at typical screen sizes... going 8K in the home makes me ROTFLMAO.

Like I said in my earlier post, PS4 support for BD 4K is just a possibility. As for the capacity required to store a 4K movie, I would not be surprised if you will be able to get a high quality video encode of a typical 2 hr. movie at 2160p@24 Hz and 10-bit depth onto a two layer blu-ray using the already defined extended format which gives 66 GB capacity, and when encoding the video using h.265/HEVC or another advanced 4K codec. Many recently produced BD Rom drives and BD burners intended for PCs now support the extended format as well as 4-layer BDs (BD-Rs in this case). If the new standard for BD video discs defines a physical and data format compatible with the existing BD-XL standard (in place since 2010) then it is very likely the PS4's internal BD drive will come with the support. I personally believe this is a likely scenario under the "don't reinvent the wheel' way of thinking that hopefully the Blu-ray task force will apply. If that turns out to be the case then for the PS4 it really comes down to two additional factors.

First will the PS4's processor have enough processing power to implement the 4K decoder (HEVC or whatever is selected for 4K blu-rays) in software, perhaps with whatever hardware assistance is already build into the PS4's GPU?

Second, will the PS4 come with a (b) HDMI 2.0, (b) HDMI 2.0 subset, or simply a (c) HDMI 1.4b port? The original PS3 could perform only the essential HDMI 1.3 functions even though it was not ver. 1.3 complient (i.e., implemented a subset of ver. 1.3). Even so, the PS3 not only supported such things as 1080p/60 output that was inroduced with ver. 1.3 (i.e., not supported by HDMI 1.2) it was later updated via firmware to even support some essential HDMI 1.4 functions (e.g., 3D). Perhaps the PS4, in a fashion similar to the PS3, will implement option (b) above and use an HDMI chip that, while not fully ver. 2.0 complient, will include hardware support for certain of the functions of ver. 2.0 that are critical to supporting the most desireable advanced 4K UHD features (e.g., increased bandwidth with support for 4K at 60K). Worst case it will support only the ver. 1.4b capabilites for 4K and would thus have the same limitations (e.g., 4K at 30 Hz. max.) as all of the current crop of consumer 4K displays (LCD flat panels and the VW1000ES projector).

Bottom line is PS4 will support 4K video, as per the Sony Electronics CEO, but it will probably be 2014 until we know if or what the PS4 capabilities (if any) related to Blu-ray 4K playback. Remember, based on the history of PS3 updates, in most cases Sony does not discuss capabillities to be enabled by future firmware upgrades until those updates are ready to be released. As a result I really don't expect any official news on PS4 support for 4K blu-rays until next year.

By the way, I do agree that streamed 4K will not be very high quaility due to data rate limits that 99.99% of us have in the USA. However, non-real time downloads of high quality 4K video (i.e., download the movie to the video player's hard drive and play back later) is a different matter that can work as long as your ISP does not impose restrictive monthly data limits.



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post #545 of 691 Old 05-10-2013, 03:04 PM
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Epson had shown some cutting edge technology back in 2009, followed by 4 years without a product demonstrating it. What gives?



http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2009/news_20091109.html

- TOKYO, Japan, November 9, 2009 -

Seiko Epson Corporation ("Epson", TSE:6724) today announced that it has developed the world's first* 4K-compatible high-temperature polysilicon (HTPS) TFT liquid crystal panel for 3LCD projectors. Measuring 1.64 inches diagonally, the new panel supports displays with resolutions up to 4096 × 2160 pixels.

Projector applications continue to expand. In addition to being used for business presentations, projectors are gaining wider use in the classroom, in auditoriums and at big events. Meanwhile, demand for high-performance products is expected to grow as more and more households enjoy full HD content via digital broadcasts and high definition video players. With a resolution of nearly 8.85 megapixels, 4K panels offer four times the resolution of full HD (1920 × 1080), making them ideal for the high resolutions required by special applications such as industrial design, architectural design and simulations, as well as for presentations and projecting four full HD images at the same time.

Figure . Comparison of 4K and Full HD Resolutions

To meet this market demand, Epson employed the latest process and C2 Fine technologies in the new panels and developed a new, original driving method optimized for 4K resolution to achieve high-resolution projected images with outstanding brightness and contrast.
Epson is committed to supporting the growing range of projector applications by combining its original technologies to expand and enhance its HTPS lineup with panels that further raise the performance of 3LCD projectors.

* Source: Epson research, as of the end of October 2009

Panel features
•High-resolution 4K-compatible ◦1.64": 4K (4096 x 2160 pixels) - the world's first 4K HTPS panel*

•Includes Epson's original LCD driver optimized for 4K resolution
•Benefits of using C2 Fine: 1.High contrast
2.Smooth images
3.Jet-black color reproduction


* C2Fine: An original Epson technology for achieving high-quality, vivid images with high contrast by combining an inorganic liquid crystal alignment layer with vertical alignment technology
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post #546 of 691 Old 05-10-2013, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuluwalker View Post

Epson had shown some cutting edge technology back in 2009, followed by 4 years without a product demonstrating it. What gives?



http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2009/news_20091109.html

- TOKYO, Japan, November 9, 2009 -

Seiko Epson Corporation ("Epson", TSE:6724) today announced that it has developed the world's first* 4K-compatible high-temperature polysilicon (HTPS) TFT liquid crystal panel for 3LCD projectors. Measuring 1.64 inches diagonally, the new panel supports displays with resolutions up to 4096 × 2160 pixels.

Projector applications continue to expand. In addition to being used for business presentations, projectors are gaining wider use in the classroom, in auditoriums and at big events. Meanwhile, demand for high-performance products is expected to grow as more and more households enjoy full HD content via digital broadcasts and high definition video players. With a resolution of nearly 8.85 megapixels, 4K panels offer four times the resolution of full HD (1920 × 1080), making them ideal for the high resolutions required by special applications such as industrial design, architectural design and simulations, as well as for presentations and projecting four full HD images at the same time.

Figure . Comparison of 4K and Full HD Resolutions

To meet this market demand, Epson employed the latest process and C2 Fine technologies in the new panels and developed a new, original driving method optimized for 4K resolution to achieve high-resolution projected images with outstanding brightness and contrast.
Epson is committed to supporting the growing range of projector applications by combining its original technologies to expand and enhance its HTPS lineup with panels that further raise the performance of 3LCD projectors.

* Source: Epson research, as of the end of October 2009

Panel features
•High-resolution 4K-compatible ◦1.64": 4K (4096 x 2160 pixels) - the world's first 4K HTPS panel*

•Includes Epson's original LCD driver optimized for 4K resolution
•Benefits of using C2 Fine: 1.High contrast
2.Smooth images
3.Jet-black color reproduction


* C2Fine: An original Epson technology for achieving high-quality, vivid images with high contrast by combining an inorganic liquid crystal alignment layer with vertical alignment technology

While that 4 year old 4K LCD display panel with its 1.64 inch size and 1.9:1 aspect ratio might have been practical for a commercial digital cinema projector, perhaps we will find out at CEDIA 2013 if Epson has been able to shrink the physical size of UHD LCD display chips down to a physical size small enough and also inexpensive enough to produce for a consumer UHD projector

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post #547 of 691 Old 05-10-2013, 06:40 PM
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What do you think the cheapest 4K projector MSRP wise will be at Cedia? My guess is $12K, not a price point that Epson has been competing at. Sony and JVC can play there.

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post #548 of 691 Old 05-11-2013, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by zuluwalker View Post

Epson had shown some cutting edge technology back in 2009, followed by 4 years without a product demonstrating it. What gives?

They did demo projectors with 3LCD Reflective technology (essential Lcos) in 2010/2011 in a 1080p version and announced that they would release two High End models with this Technology in the models EH-R2000 and EH-R4000.
Suddenly a year ago they announced they abandoned the project/models for the time being.
I guess if they have problems meeting their quality standard for 1080p panels then 4K panels aren't easier.

Here are the announcement on a Italien site from February 2012.
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Via google translate.......... http://www.avmagazine.it/news/videoproiettori/epson-addio-agli-r2000-e-r4000_6816.html

Below is the official statement of Epson Italy:

"Epson after a thorough analysis has decided to cancel the production of projectors EH-R2000 and EH-R4000. The assembly process of these models does not allow to fully meet the standards of quality that the 3LCD Reflective technology is able to offer . Epson will continue to develop new products based on 3LCD Reflective technology with the aim of making them available on the market when they reach the high levels of quality that has always been our customers recognize us and expect from Epson. "

Source: Epson Italy

A French site reported the same.
I don't follow Epson projectors so I don't know where their 3LCD Reflective technology stands today in their latest products.
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post #549 of 691 Old 05-11-2013, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

What do you think the cheapest 4K projector MSRP wise will be at Cedia? My guess is $12K, not a price point that Epson has been competing at. Sony and JVC can play there.

That seems about right. However, it Epson were to show up with a 4K LCD projector it might very well come in under $10K (but I suspect it more likely that Epson will wait another year to introduce their first 4K UHD projector).



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post #550 of 691 Old 05-11-2013, 08:50 PM
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Thanks for the input fellas. I would like to try 4k for myself, but maybe in two years if Ron is right, I will also be in the market too?
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post #551 of 691 Old 05-11-2013, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

What do you think the cheapest 4K projector MSRP wise will be at Cedia? My guess is $12K, not a price point that Epson has been competing at. Sony and JVC can play there.

I hope jvc will be able to have enough brightness with their 4k projectors to light up a unity gain screen like the Sony can without opening the iris all the way. Right now with the eshift models, they are not bright enough for a 10-11ft wide screen.
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post #552 of 691 Old 05-12-2013, 03:04 AM
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The projection industry has in many ways hit a brick wall. Over the years light output in consumer HT machines has more or less remained constant on a watt per watt bulb basis with a continuing trade off of brightness vs native contrast. Sure there are tricks, some subjectively good and others bad to get more brightness or contrast, DIs, lamp shaping, the sony 3D trick to run the bulb hotter in pulses, running at higher gray scale temperatures, yada yada. But year after year we find pretty much the sane. Refinements and good refinements with native and enhanced contrasts creeping up but output lumens more or less the same.

So how can the companies bump up the lumens. Lasers are not here yet for a variety of reasons and the projector companies are not the reason why lasers are not yet here.

A projector can use a higher wattage bulb. The Sony VPL-vw1000ES does. But these bulbs are expensive compared to the normal wattage bulbs used in HT projectors and they generate more heat and this generally means a bigger more expensive projector. Big can be engineered out like the Sim2 Solo but not the expensive part.


What else? Put a faster lens on our babies. Faster means a larger diameter lens and full use of the glass area available. Could this be done? Yes. But lenses, fast lenses are expensive and would substantially raise projector costs. Getting rid of zoom lenses and not using glass area to provide for lens shift, would result in a lot more light out but would be suicide for the projector company. No lens shift! No flexible mounting distances, a large fixed offset, yada yada. Nope.

If you want to spend the relatively modest highly discounted amounts all the JVCs are commonly sold for, don't expect enough light to light up low gain large area screens. The best solutions cost and most can not afford them. If you are one of the most group, make compromises and live with them and take solace when others tell you how great a choice you made in the compromise and that it really wasn't a compromise.

Go to a higher gain screen, a compromise, go to smaller screen size, a perceived compromise. Remember you are not sizing for a large audience. How many seats do you have and how far away will you sit?.

Run at a lower gamma and run at a higher gray scale temperature. Change bulbs more frequently. Not really a compromise and replacing bulbs is a lot cheaper than buying a much more expensive projector.

As you know, I am running an 8 ft wide unity gain screen. And now at 900 hrs, I need to mostly run my Sony on high lamp. So that means at my present 900 hours, I will need to replace my bulb in about 300 more hours. Probably around the start of the fall. A new bulb will set one back around $800 at MSRP and a bunch less at street but still quite a bit.


Another compromise. Watch it dimmer, your eyes will adapt.


But wish for something that has it all for next to nothing, say under $9K street isn't going to happen. Or you can believe a company like Red who has for years been promising a 4K laser projector for under $10K and all the Red fan boys ridiculing sony for doing a lamp lit 4K for about double street. What. Stop the presses. Red put the project on the back burner. But But its been a two year wait and nothing is imminent. No problem. By the end of this year our friends at JVC and Sony will have 4K projectors for under $10K street. They won't be high lumens though requiring you to make compromises. The safest compromise and the one that will win you fame and accolades from the minions would be to use a HP screen. Not at all a bad compromise. Not the same video quality as using a great unity gain screen but you can't have it all and probably you can never have it all no matter how much you spend. Theaters, whether large or small, involve compromises.

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post #553 of 691 Old 05-12-2013, 06:48 AM
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So mark with all the compromises that you've nicely laid out..... I'll wait till 2015 to upgrade to 4k pj with AT screen.
For now my 5 year old Sony vw60 with new bulb every 1200 hrs works, actually pretty darn good.

I'm amazed at how people here burn $$$ into funding the R&D of pj's by yearly buys.

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post #554 of 691 Old 05-12-2013, 01:24 PM
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I love my vw95 and have no angst about waiting another couple years for a 4K pj upgrade, by then we would hopefully have access to new release movies in 4K to really appreciate the technology advancements in PQ with not only higher resolution but also more bits and expanded color palette.  Now and the near future upscaled 2K to me wouldn't be enough to justify the cost.

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post #555 of 691 Old 05-12-2013, 02:27 PM
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People buy JVCs are huge discounts during pre order times, they use the machine for awhile and then selling for close to what they paid because the new cost goes up about 10 percent after pre preorder. Usually, the new machines are worth the modest out of pocket they spend upgrading to the newest generation. Once say 2 or 3 years pass, the new digital stuff for the same price is noticeably better. The art of refinement. More later. Gotta walk the dog says the mrs.

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post #556 of 691 Old 05-12-2013, 02:54 PM
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JVC pre order prices allows me to upgrade every year with little to no extra cost
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post #557 of 691 Old 05-12-2013, 08:25 PM
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Continuing my dissertation. My comments were initially directed to an impossible wish. A dramatic increase in brightness for the JVC and Sony classes of projectors. Not going to happen.

Now for 4K, forget about extra brightness except for going to a higher wattage machine such as the sony VPL-vw1000ES which uses a 330 watt bulb instead of the 200 plus watters used in say the Sony 50 and 95 and the JVC series each year.

OK lets convert the JVCs and Sony's to 4K. First we need new chips, more expensive and somewhat larger in size. Sony already has them and uses them in the 1000ES. Then we need a better lens, one capable of true 4K resolution. This means an upgrade of the present JVC lens and development by Sony of a good 4K lens but one that is not as good or expensive as the one in the 1000ES. Processing power needs a big kick upwards too. What does this mean? A machine in the $12K MSRP class and no increase in brightness over the present machines. There is more but this is not a dissertation on how the optical efficiency of the Sony and JVC light engines could be improved. They could be and by a fair amount but it would cost big bucks for better polarizers and light integrator rods etc. Not going to happen.

Now should one upgrade a Sony 60 that one is happy with. Happiness is am individual thing. I wouldn't be at all happy with a 60 but I would make myself happy with one if that's all I could afford. All the machines out there put up a watchable picture. We tend to justify whatever we do and our place in the socio economic matrix or whatever. Most of the time it is justification for self preservation purposes and nothing more. Don't take what I said as a justification for using a 60 for two more years. But it ain't bad and if it is what you can afford then continue to enjoy it. I have been totally spoiled by my sony 1000ES. Fortunately, I got it at a price I could afford and I have absolutely no regrets. But I couldn't go back to a lesser projector.

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post #558 of 691 Old 05-12-2013, 09:43 PM
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This may be a tad niche, but wouldn't a more economical solution be a dual lamp chassis? Or at least have a limited quantity SKU with a modified chassis that can utilize two lamps? This could work well for JVC, Sony, or any other manufacturer looking to keep the larger screen users happy. This may kill the contrast performance a tad, but if you're looking to rock a huge screen you should know that you can't always have it all.
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post #559 of 691 Old 05-12-2013, 09:50 PM
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that's a good idea. even the VW1000 could have used a 2nd lamp for 3D since the output is typical for projectors in the 3K range. 2000+ lumens in 3D would have a big selling point for lighting up those large AT screen.

what the heck, let's burn up $1600 worth of lamps for brighter 3D. major chassis accommodations would likely have to be made for the extra power / heat, etc.
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post #560 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I hope jvc will be able to have enough brightness with their 4k projectors to light up a unity gain screen like the Sony can without opening the iris all the way. Right now with the eshift models, they are not bright enough for a 10-11ft wide screen.

I would disagree with that statement, with some qualifications.
If you have the JVC in a living room environment then I would agree.

However, in a 100% light controlled HT environment they are plenty bright.

I have the DLA-4810, in my 100% light controlled HT, with dark walls, black recliners, black ceiling and black screen wall, with a 150" EliteScreen Lunette Cinewhite screen (1.1).
The screen is also surrounded by my AV cabinets on both sides and below the screen with 2 foot depth (AV cabinet is framed with black cloth, which cuts down reflections)
I am projecting from about 16 feet, with the projector centered on the screen.

When I calibrated my projector, I had to set the iris to -15 (completely closed), running in low lamp mode, in order for the image to not be too bright !!!
Light control and surroundings are the key.

The people that talk about lack of brightness generally either lack light control or prefer Best Buy blown out plasma like image.
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post #561 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 08:15 AM
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Ones eyes get used to dim and don't notice how much a projector dims over time. Evidently I have been watching at pretty low ft lamberts for quite awhile. When Bill Miller wa at my house a few weeks ago, he not being used to my err blazing light show, immediately made me get out my trusty light meter and measure. I think I was watching at about 8 ft lumens. Anyhow we bumped the bulb to high, made a few other tweaks to the settings and now have about 13 ft lamberts. Going back to the old settings and low lamp, it is now too dim for me except nothing has changed, just my reference perception. Now I keep bumping the bulb up to high.


I agree that a two bulb machine is a way of increasing bulb wattage above say 330 watts but the costs really escalate chassis wise, optically to get both bulb outputs smoothly and uniformly into the engine, power supply increases, cooling system increases plus if you want to operate the thing with only one bulb lit and have it still look uniform.

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post #562 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

I would disagree with that statement, with some qualifications.
If you have the JVC in a living room environment then I would agree.

However, in a 100% light controlled HT environment they are plenty bright.

I have the DLA-4810, in my 100% light controlled HT, with dark walls, black recliners, black ceiling and black screen wall, with a 150" EliteScreen Lunette Cinewhite screen (1.1).
The screen is also surrounded by my AV cabinets on both sides and below the screen with 2 foot depth (AV cabinet is framed with black cloth, which cuts down reflections)
I am projecting from about 16 feet, with the projector centered on the screen.

When I calibrated my projector, I had to set the iris to -15 (completely closed), running in low lamp mode, in order for the image to not be too bright !!!
Light control and surroundings are the key.

The people that talk about lack of brightness generally either lack light control or prefer Best Buy blown out plasma like image.

I prefer my ftL to be between 14-16ftL. You like a 150in screen with a 1.1 gain on low lamp with the iris closed, that's around 3ftL or 250 lumens. To me that's unwatchable. With the iris fully open on high lamp, you will get 12ftL at the most. That will last maybe 300hrs until you lose more and more lumens. Most will live with 10ftL but most prefer brighter.
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post #563 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I prefer my ftL to be between 14-16ftL. You like a 150in screen with a 1.1 gain on low lamp with the iris closed, that's around 3ftL or 250 lumens. To me that's unwatchable. With the iris fully open on high lamp, you will get 12ftL at the most. That will last maybe 300hrs until you lose more and more lumens. Most will live with 10ftL but most prefer brighter.

To me 14-16 ftL is completely unwatchable. It hurts my eyes, besides washing out all the detail in bright scenes. And transition from a dark scene to bright scene, at those foot lamberts is painful and completely un-acceptable.
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post #564 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

To me 14-16 ftL is completely unwatchable. It hurts my eyes, besides washing out all the detail in bright scenes. And transition from a dark scene to bright scene, at those foot lamberts is painful and completely un-acceptable.

Wash out all detail at 14ftL? That's crazy, but 3ftL brings them out? I'm positive not one person will agree
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post #565 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

To me 14-16 ftL is completely unwatchable. It hurts my eyes, besides washing out all the detail in bright scenes. And transition from a dark scene to bright scene, at those foot lamberts is painful and completely un-acceptable.

I assume you do not go see movies in the local cinemas, since the industry standard for such commercial theaters is 16 ftL with as low as 12 ftL being acceptable. For home theaters such levels are considered appropriate if you have a totally light controlled room (which any true home theater have). If you have room lights or lights entering through windows or doors then you will not be able to get deep blacks and will lose shadow details. In this case increased output from the projector is needed to provide a watchable picture. In any case with front projection a totally dark room with dark colored walls and ceiling is necessary to acheive a near ideal result.

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post #566 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 10:57 AM
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To me 14-16 ftL is completely unwatchable. It hurts my eyes, besides washing out all the detail in bright scenes. .

14-16 ftL has absolutely nothing to do with "washing out detail" in bright scenes. If your display is washing out detail in bright areas it has to do with the poor calibration
of your display, not the brightness per se of your image.

Presumably you do not find detail disappearing when you observe real life when you walk out the door (which is much brighter than your projector to say the least). If you do, time for an eye-appointment.
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post #567 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 11:24 AM
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Wash out all detail at 14ftL? That's crazy, but 3ftL brings them out? I'm positive not one person will agree

I can see all detail that's possible to see - at 18 foot lamberts. I hate a dim picture.

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post #568 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 11:37 AM
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Presumably you do not find detail disappearing when you observe real life when you walk out the door (which is much brighter than your projector to say the least). If you do, time for an eye-appointment.

Funny stuff guys, 18fL is pretty good, but I will say when I walked out of the darkened HT room after watching a bad transfer of "Master and Commander" that was unusually dark, I couldn't see a freaking thing outside because the sun was so intense. Having spent 10+ hours in the HT room at times, I am starting to wonder if I might be growing two extra teeth.

Pretty decent movie btw, gives you a new respect for modern medicine.


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post #569 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 12:01 PM
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Master and Commander is a great movie. Better get a good Blu Ray of it to watch next time . smile.gif

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post #570 of 691 Old 05-13-2013, 12:06 PM
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Yah we had to watch it in DVD quality.


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