Predictions for 2013 4K projectors - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 691 Old 05-15-2013, 11:50 AM
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Sony was very recently showing a pro model 4K laser projector in NYC. Here is a blog comment from someone at the presentation:

"The laser light source projector was a hot item, and we got to see a demo of how the new projector compared to other models. The difference in the brightness was very clear to see, and I would encourage everyone to go see it in person."

and the photo of the laser projector:



Hopefully a consumer version will be introduced at CEDIA in September.



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post #602 of 691 Old 05-15-2013, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Sony was very recently showing a pro model 4K laser projector in NYC. Here is a blog comment from someone at the presentation:

"The laser light source projector was a hot item, and we got to see a demo of how the new projector compared to other models. The difference in the brightness was very clear to see, and I would encourage everyone to go see it in person."

and the photo on the laser projector:



Hopefully a consumer version will be introduced at CEDIA in September.

Very interesting indeed. I wonder what 'other models' the brightness of this new pj was compared to. ?
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post #603 of 691 Old 05-15-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

I have both a JVC X35 (=RS46) and a Panasonic 55VT50 in my setup with pulldown HP (119'' 1.78:1) and HCHP (same width 2.40:1) screens in front of the TV. I have measured the contrast of both with my Display3 Pro meter. According to my measurements the JVC has a significant advantage in on/off over the plasma. With max zoom and open iris the JVC was at about 25.000:1, with full telezoom and closed iris about 50.000:1 (measured from the lens). The Panasonic on the other hand was just below 8.000:1...

Now, perhaps the meter in question isn't ideal for on/off measurements. However, both readings track well with numbers I have seen from other sources and I consistently get the same.

I think the plasma is perceived to have better blacks because it's much smaller. Poor blacks is much more noticeble in a large black area than in a small one. Also, it is much less sensitive of stray light and reflections, which most rooms have.

Regarding size, the pixel structure becomes glaringly obvious on the plasma if I sit at the same viewing angle as the JVC. So no, I wouldn't opt for a 119'' plasma lest it's 4K biggrin.gif.

Very interesting and thanks for posting this. My perception as far as the contrast was off which probably had to do with a number of factors as you mention. How about ANSI contrast? Is the plasma higher in this area or no?

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #604 of 691 Old 05-15-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Sony was very recently showing a pro model 4K laser projector in NYC. Here is a blog comment from someone at the presentation:

"The laser light source projector was a hot item, and we got to see a demo of how the new projector compared to other models. The difference in the brightness was very clear to see, and I would encourage everyone to go see it in person."

and the photo on the laser projector:



Hopefully a consumer version will be introduced at CEDIA in September.

I have seen this projector and many incarnations of it.

Sony Found a way to convert there blue laser into pure white lite. They can stack the lasers for more lumen. In the Model you see which is the FH36 modded with the laser light there are 4 blue lasers.
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post #605 of 691 Old 05-15-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

I have seen this projector and many incarnations of it.

Sony Found a way to convert there blue laser into pure white lite. They can stack the lasers for more lumen. In the Model you see which is the FH36 modded with the laser light there are 4 blue lasers.

Any idea how close to 6500K is the native color temp of their white (modified blue) lasers?

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post #606 of 691 Old 05-15-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I am too lazy to try and calculate this but it would depend on the reference screen size and how long the zoom ratio was on the lens and the effective f stops but as you zoom smaller the lens transmits less light but you are lighting up less area. What's the net? I guess I will do some measurements and calculations later zooming smaller than my 110 D.

I run various screen sizes and have noted all the lumens and fl at various screen sizes, apertures and lamp mode. Going off memory, on my 1.0 screen at 150 inches at almost full zoom I get just under 14fl in high lamp, 900ish lumens. As I reduce screen size the lumens drops but fl increases considerably. At 117 inch I get 26fl and at minimum zoom I get almost 40fl.at min zoom lumens drop to around 600 or maybe less, can't quite remember, but fl is trebled even though lumens is reduced considerably.
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post #607 of 691 Old 05-15-2013, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Very interesting indeed. I wonder what 'other models' the brightness of this new pj was compared to. ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

I have seen this projector and many incarnations of it.

Sony Found a way to convert there blue laser into pure white lite. They can stack the lasers for more lumen. In the Model you see which is the FH36 modded with the laser light there are 4 blue lasers.

I suspect the comparison was to the regular lamp-based FH36. Note the regular FH36 is a LCD (not LCoS) business class projector with a street price of under $5K and is only spec'ed to have a 2,000:1 contrast ratio and a rated 5,200 lumen output (but probably with a color temp much higher than 6500K). It will be interesting to see if Sony shows up at the CEDIA Expo with a successor for the VW1000 that uses a white laser light source similar to what they are showing with the modified FH36.

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post #608 of 691 Old 05-15-2013, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

I have seen this projector and many incarnations of it.

Sony Found a way to convert there blue laser into pure white lite. They can stack the lasers for more lumen. In the Model you see which is the FH36 modded with the laser light there are 4 blue lasers.
It is possible that Sony use the same method that it is a new way to easily get the right white temprature for LED lighting called Remote Phosphorus.

The drive light in LED are normally a blue/ultraviolet that is coated with phosphorus material in a mix that gives desired color.
A company called Intematix has created Phosphorus called ChromaLit into solid plates that can be placed in a distance from blue LEDs that are not coated in phosphorus.

"Phosphor is the luminescent material critical to many lighting applications, especially LEDs. Most white LEDs are in fact blue LEDs with a phosphor coating. Phosphor absorbs the light at the blue wavelength and reemits the photons at longer wavelengths. The phosphor emits up to 95 percent of the visible lumens from a white LED."

Advantage is that much of the heat is removed from the LED drive itself so more powerful drives can be used without damaging the phosphorus.
Up to 30% more light efficiency pr. watt.
CRI up to 98.
The Phosphor plated can be replaced by anybody like a color filter if one wants another white temperature.

This method can also be used with Blue/Ultraviolet Lasers in the same way. A coming application that has not yet reached market in known products yet.
The use with Blue Laser as lightsource is very similar to something Toshiba calls LD Lighting which uses lasers to light up an emitter.

It is quite possible that Sony can use a similar type of Blue/Ultraviolet Diode Laser that are used in Blu-Ray drives in a cluster and put a Remote Phosphorus plate in a convenient place in the light path to create the right white light temperature that is useful for a projector.


For those techno nerds here that want to know more, here is a short presentation video from Intematix; http://youtu.be/w22wiG2qOOY
A short video how Remote Phosphorus is used in a video lighting spotlight; http://youtu.be/sZyss_TuyDs

If you have LED downlights in your house and are not happy with the color temperature, you can buy some blue LEDs and get Remote Phosphorus plates from here in various color temperatures and shapes to try out before totally remodelling your lighting: http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/optoelectronics/optics-remote-phosphor/525582?k=Phosphor
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post #609 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 12:16 AM
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The Food and Drug Administration regulates the manufacture, distribution and sale of laser and laser powered device. The regulations are found at 21 CRF 1040 and there are variance procedures for light shows and a projection from such machine is considered a light show. Kodak obtained a variance for its laser projector licensed to IMAX. I don't pretend to understand all the regulations and one has to have a significant amount of technical specifications including power to tell which portion of the regulations are applicable to a particular device. I wonder gow the Sony professional products machine was handled by sony under the regulations. I suspect lower power HT laser power projectors would not be prohibited unless a variance was issued as was needed and obtained by Kodak for its high powered projector. while the regulations are old and were not written with laser powered video projectors in mind or in existence, the FDA's position is that they are applicable and there is no shot in hell that a court would rule they are not because the courts are required to give great deference to the agency and its expertise. I doubt any challenge that the regulations are void for vagueness as to their applicability to laser powered video projectors. the FDA has announced its willingness to issue separate regulations governing the manufacture, distribution, and sale of laser powered video projector but has announced that it seeks a unified industry wide position as to the safety requirements that should be applicable to such projectors. I suspect that the federal action will substantially delay.t the manufacture and sale of both high powered commercial and lower powered laser HT projectors. To the best of my knowledge on the only variance that has been issued so far is the Kodak machine and that machine is a high powered machine above the power limit of for light show machines. a laser video projector is considered a light show machine. Good luck in trying to read and understand the regulations and I say that being a retired regulatory attorney.

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post #610 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

I have seen this projector and many incarnations of it.

Sony Found a way to convert there blue laser into pure white lite. They can stack the lasers for more lumen. In the Model you see which is the FH36 modded with the laser light there are 4 blue lasers.

Hello Space2001......what were you're impressions compaired to a UHP lamp based projector, brightness aside...any speckle issues?

Thanks

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post #611 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 07:56 AM
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The Sony approach of using a white light source should be relatively inexpensive to implement as compared to a total light engine redesign (i.e., with a major projector chassis redesign) that would be required to use separate red, blue and green lasers with each individually used to illuminate the cooresponding LCoS display chip providing the red, blue or green component image.

Also since the light used to illuminate the LCoS chips is actually that coming from the Phosphor then this should effectively eliminate any speckle issues, since I assume it is no longer coherent light.




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post #612 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Hello Space2001......what were you're impressions compaired to a UHP lamp based projector, brightness aside...any speckle issues?

Thanks

No Speckle The perceived brightness looked higher then the fh36 with 5200 lumen.

The laser are going through a phosphor.

I will hopefully get a unit after infocomm. As the design is not final and they may be adding inputs such as display ports and HDbaseT.

There will be a lower cost 4k projector at Cedia, but will most likely will not be laser.

Things to note is that they just took a FH36 and modded it with the laser module. This could lead to them modding past projectors.

Also Each laser is separate. So for example 1 laser can fail and the other 3 can still keep running.
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post #613 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

The Sony approach of using a white light source should be relatively inexpensive to implement as compared to a total light engine redesign (i.e., with a major projector chassis redesign) that would be required to use separate red, blue and green lasers with each individually used to illuminate the cooresponding LCoS display chip providing the red, blue or green component image.

Also since the light used to illuminate the LCoS chips is actually that coming from the Phosphor then this should effectively eliminate any speckle issues, since I assume it is no longer coherent light.




.

Sony does have a RGB laser modules. But as you said it would have to be a total redesign of the projector. Also they want to stick to a 3-chip design.
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post #614 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 11:48 AM
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Being built on the FH36 (5000 lumens, 2000:1 CR) business projector, is there any chance that it can be modified enough to appeal to HT'ers? It doesn't sound like it.
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post #615 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Being built on the FH36 (5000 lumens, 2000:1 CR) business projector, is there any chance that it can be modified enough to appeal to HT'ers? It doesn't sound like it.

Right now the business market is where a projectors are doing very well. The main issue for many years has been maintenance. School's for example where spending 100's of thousands in bulbs filters replacements etc. This is where it will start and trickle down into home theater.


The FH36 can be used for home theater. Where it lacks is the contrast ratio, but you can now ad a nice screen to compensate.

Using a dual projector setup for 3d is where it is at 2 x 5200 lumens.
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post #616 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 04:00 PM
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A laser projector based on Remote Phosphor only has the advantage of long life/lower lamp costs and possibly to have stronger light output than a bulb projector. Besides that it will be just like a lamp projector.
The (other) real advantages (those we really want) of laser projectors based on RGB lasers, like pure nm color, wider color space, narrow Entendu that will save cost on optics, ability to stay calibrated, deep DOF, it will not have.
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post #617 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

A laser projector based on Remote Phosphor only has the advantage of long life/lower lamp costs and possibly to have stronger light output than a bulb projector. Besides that it will be just like a lamp projector.
The (other) real advantages (those we really want) of laser projectors based on RGB lasers, like pure nm color, wider color space, narrow Entendu that will save cost on optics, ability to stay calibrated, deep DOF, it will not have.

Tx for the insight. Sounds like none of this will replace the Sony1000ES. Sure, it would be nice not to have to replace the lamp, but that's a minor overhead cost compared to the overall situation.

Seems like it's still going to be a while before a truly game changing technology is ready.

Very glad that I sprang for the 1000 at a good price when I did. It looks like I will be sticking with it for some while.
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post #618 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 07:10 PM
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If you use the same projector but substitute a laser/phosphor, you would eliminate the low voltage high current power supply needed to power the bulb, the lamp strking components, and the arc flash protection components, chassis cooling components would be less and the projector would be brighter. On the down side, the laser modules would be much more costly and several would be needed to provide a 2000 lumens machine. There would be no bulb cost nor bulb replacement costs but I suspect say replacing the bulb on a Sony 1000ES say every 500 hours at a street of about say $600 would ultimately be cheaper than the laser conversion or the higher cost of buying a laser/phosphor 1000ES. Plus any such machine would only be a short term step until a true laser RGB and its associate benefits would be developed. There is no reason a RGB laser machine could not be a 3 chipper reflective LCD machine. many parts in the light engine could be eliminated.

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post #619 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

A laser projector based on Remote Phosphor only has the advantage of long life/lower lamp costs and possibly to have stronger light output than a bulb projector. Besides that it will be just like a lamp projector.
The (other) real advantages (those we really want) of laser projectors based on RGB lasers, like pure nm color, wider color space, narrow Entendu that will save cost on optics, ability to stay calibrated, deep DOF, it will not have.

Even the single white laser based projector should require recalibration far less frequent that with lamp based projectors.

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post #620 of 691 Old 05-16-2013, 08:59 PM
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Even the single white laser based projector should require recalibration far less frequent that with lamp based projectors.

Perhaps true, but with AutoCal via ChromaPure and a RadianceMini, this is a trivial process.
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post #621 of 691 Old 05-17-2013, 12:23 AM
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Its a trivial process for those investing in the set of equipment and the understanding and patience to use it correctly, but it isn't about those people. Laser light sources are a huge advantage because generally calibration would be good out of the box and should change little over a considerable operating hour term. For the HT user this may be important or not depending on how accurately one's eyes see the calibrated colors. In a commercial or class room presentation environment there would be a broad spectrum of viewers and accurate colors may be extremely important to the presentation. Accordingly, I would conclude the long term color stability of laser lit projectors would. be a substantial advantage over bulb lit machines. For you Bill this is not needed because you have the equipment but you also do not see the colors as they were intended to be displayed and viewed because of yellowing cataracts but that's another argument beaten into the ground by me and irrelevant if one is happy in calibrating so that a specific color being displayed will look the same in real life albeit you will see it wrong just as I see it wrong.
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post #622 of 691 Old 05-17-2013, 08:43 AM
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Some good points, Mark. Out of box calibration accuracy and long term stability would indeed be a strong selling point for a wide audience.
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post #623 of 691 Old 05-17-2013, 12:10 PM
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So what is the likely scenario?
Blue laser to white light that gets filtered for say a hw60 class projector and a rgb laser engine design for the vw1000 follow up product.

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post #624 of 691 Old 05-17-2013, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
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So what is the likely scenario?
Blue laser to white light that gets filtered for say a hw60 class projector and a rgb laser engine design for the vw1000 follow up product.

Since it will require an all new design to support RGB lasers, I suspect Sony will go with a white laser source as a more modest, and less costly, update to the VW1000 design. As for offering a laser light source with a 1080p model, perhaps that will be coming with a replacement for the VW95 and the lower priced successor to the HW50 will stay with a lamp.

Space2001 - any clues if that's too far off the mark from what you have heard we might expect to see at CEDIA in Sept. or CES in January?

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post #625 of 691 Old 05-17-2013, 04:29 PM
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Btw, since when is 2160p 4k? I swear I remember 4k used to refer to 4000 LINES of resolution.

Went to see Iron Man in the theater. It was in "Sony Digital Cinema 4k". My thoughts were a) need more lumens! and b) they should be giving us 8k.
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post #626 of 691 Old 05-17-2013, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

Btw, since when is 2160p 4k? I swear I remember 4k used to refer to 4000 LINES of resolution.

Went to see Iron Man in the theater. It was in "Sony Digital Cinema 4k". My thoughts were a) need more lumens! and b) they should be giving us 8k.

4K was always 2160 vertical pixels and for digital cinema it is 4096 horizontal pixels and uses a 1.9:1 aspect ratio. Thus the 4K refers to the approx. 4K horizontal pixels. However, for the consumer version, with its 1.78:1 aspect ratio, we have Ultra HD (or 4K Ultra HD) which has 2160 vertical by 3840 horizontal pixels.



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post #627 of 691 Old 05-17-2013, 05:18 PM
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Since it will require an all new design to support RGB lasers, I suspect Sony will go with a white laser source as a more modest, and less costly, update to the VW1000 design. As for offering a laser light source with a 1080p model, perhaps that will be coming with a replacement for the VW95 and the lower priced successor to the HW50 will stay with a lamp.

Space2001 - any clues if that's too far off the mark from what you have heard we might expect to see at CEDIA in Sept. or CES in January?


There is still a bit of time till I find out what is actually going on. I will most likely know in July, but will not be able to say anything until Cedia.

Lasers at least from what I have been told will be in Home theatre next year. The pro sony model will get laser this June for release.
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post #628 of 691 Old 05-18-2013, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

You are certainly not wrong for enjoying whatever brightness you find pleasing since brightness is very subjective, but understand that your picture is technically considered dim just going off the numbers and those that prefer something closer to the 16fL baseline are certainly not worthy of the title "Best Buy plasma like image" viewers which is just ridiculous. Understand that going off the information you have given us that you are getting ~4fL image brightness with a new bulb (!!!) which most people would consider VERY dim (especially on a new bulb). If you are happy, that is all that matters, but to come in here telling people who like acceptable brightness (what most consider acceptable at least) or higher that they like blown out "Best Buy" images, especially considering a lot of these folks are calibrated is just absurd.

With low lamp, max zoom (which you are close to being mounted 16' from a 150" diag screen), -15 iris and D65 all of which you claim to be watching at, you are starting out with about 260 lumens going off the cine4home numbers which gives you a 4.25 fL image on a new bulb if you do the math. This is technically VERY dim. Again, if you are happy that is all that matters, but most would find this unacceptable in a 100% light controlled room with a new lamp.

If you are getting washed out bright scenes, you have a calibration issue. Most likely your contrast is simply set to high which can be easily adjusted with a calibration disc if you have not done so (check brightness as well). There is no logical reason you should be getting washed out bright scenes at anywhere close to the SMPTE recommended brightness levels.

All of us in this thread certainly understand the importance of good light control with minimum distractions and all the people responding to you have put forth the effort in their theaters to get this done as well as they can all things considered. My floor, sidewalls, part of my ceiling (the other part is flat black paint), couch, and rear wall are all black velvet which is the darkest material I have tested (even better than protostar which I use some of as well on my first reflection and bass trap metal frames......yes I am that anal) and also the best at killing off light. In my black hole of a room with my calibrated RS45 (ChromaPure, Lumagen Mini, D3 Pro meter), I would find your ~4 fL image (again, this is with a new bulb!) unwatchable and disappointing, not to mention it is about 1/4 of the SMPTE 16fL standard (the general considered acceptable range is 12-20 as I remember) which is obviously just a guideline, but at 4fL you are definitely in the "dim" category.

Again, if you are happy with ~4fL on a new bulb, that is all that matters but to come on here telling people they are Best Buy plasma image lovers if they like something closer to the SMPTE 16fL standard, especially considering this is coming from someone watching with ~4fL brightness on a new bulb is flat out ridiculous. I cant even imagine how dim 3d must be in your setup in all due respect!

Just to keep this in perspective since you keep bringing up plasma, from my reading (someone correct me if I am wrong) calibrators in general shoot for ~30 fL brightness on a calibrated plasma set in a light controlled, dark, lights out HT room and closer to 40 fL calibrated in a more lit up daytime setting. This is obviously a far cry from the general image brightness numbers we are talking about with front projection and again to label those as Plasma Best Buy image is just silly.

Having said that, how many times are you going to rehash this topic? You have brought this up 3 or 4 times now. confused.gif



Great post smile.gif and I completly agree with you Toe

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post #629 of 691 Old 05-18-2013, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

So what is the likely scenario?
Blue laser to white light that gets filtered for say a hw60 class projector and a rgb laser engine design for the vw1000 follow up product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Since it will require an all new design to support RGB lasers, I suspect Sony will go with a white laser source as a more modest, and less costly, update to the VW1000 design. As for offering a laser light source with a 1080p model, perhaps that will be coming with a replacement for the VW95 and the lower priced successor to the HW50 will stay with a lamp.

Space2001 - any clues if that's too far off the mark from what you have heard we might expect to see at CEDIA in Sept. or CES in January?

Would it not be more efficient to just use different phosphor plates to produce the R and G beams from a blue one, rather than mix it all into white only to split it out again?? But that doesn't "plug into" existing designs which use white light sources - so that's the modest update you refer to, right?
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post #630 of 691 Old 05-18-2013, 09:35 PM
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Using different colored phosphors would eliminate the need to split a white diachromatically but you would still need polarizers in the colored beam light path if the chips are LCD or reflective LCD. Second while the laser itself has long life, the phosphors are consumables and the various phosphor colors are at rather fixed color points and those points are not extremely saturated points. So you might have to filter the light coming off the phosphors to get wide chromaticity points and filtering eats up light. Remember our CRT front projectors and the narrow color space of those days. green had to be filtered, Red needed to be filtered but couldn't be made correct without eating up too much light. And the blue phosphor was so limited in light out put no filtering was possible. The best solution is to have the laser or lasers generate the chromaticity points needed for the widest color space.

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