Predictions for 2013 4K projectors - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 691 Old 05-19-2013, 07:30 AM
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Using different colored phosphors would eliminate the need to split a white diachromatically but you would still need polarizers in the colored beam light path if the chips are LCD or reflective LCD. Second while the laser itself has long life, the phosphors are consumables and the various phosphor colors are at rather fixed color points and those points are not extremely saturated points. So you might have to filter the light coming off the phosphors to get wide chromaticity points and filtering eats up light. Remember our CRT front projectors and the narrow color space of those days. green had to be filtered, Red needed to be filtered but couldn't be made correct without eating up too much light. And the blue phosphor was so limited in light out put no filtering was possible. The best solution is to have the laser or lasers generate the chromaticity points needed for the widest color space.

I totally agree. I do wonder how difficult it will be to get to the substantially wider color space, as defined for Ultra-HD by ITU rec. BT.2020, when using conventional UHP lamps and how much the projector's lumens output would be impacted when operating in this mode (as compared to rec. 709 HD color space - see below). Do you know what the color points are for widest available color space setting on your VW1000es?


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post #632 of 691 Old 05-19-2013, 08:23 AM
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They could make a Remote Phosphor RGB Laser projector in similar way that LED projectors are made.
3x Blue Laser (maybe in a separate box) feeding laser via fiberoptics to the same type of light box used for LED projectors where the Red+Green+Blue Phosphorous would be.
Advantages;
LED projectors have big cooling requirements (water cooling) to keep the LEDs within a certain temperature range to be able display correct colors.
By substituting remote Laser for the LED some of the heat problems would be removed. The phosphorous could be mounted in a heatsink at the light box to keep it cool.
In case of deteriorating Phosphorus, a solid phosphorus plate could be easily swappable.
The Laser could be stronger than what is possible today with Phosphorous coated Blue LED when the direct heat problem of Phosphorus is removed.

Here are some pictures from a One Chip DLP LED lightbox, just so we can see what it looks like.



Will not have all the advantages of a true Laser Lightengine.

Christie has been showing their Cinema Laser DLP projector several times lately. But it still has Speckle problems. They use several methods to reduce Speckle, one which is to vibrate the screen, which isn't really a usable solution, particularly for HT use.
Maybe they should try to vibrate the DLP DMD in stead using the type of motors used in lenses and also in cameras to vibrate the sensor. wink.gif
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post #633 of 691 Old 05-19-2013, 08:38 AM
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Ron. I don't know how wide a space can be obtained by the 1000ES. I know that rec 709 and the DCI color space can be obtained with DCI putting out less light because of the filtering involved. In theory, wider spaces than rec 709 or DCI can always be obtained by filtering but usually at too big a hit on light.


I doubt we will ever see our theoretically ideal three chip or single chip RGB laser lit projector. Too expensive, unsolved technical issues like speckel, regulatory issues and a consumer market that just doesn't care. Some care but most don't.

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post #634 of 691 Old 05-19-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I doubt we will ever see our theoretically ideal three chip or single chip RGB laser lit projector. Too expensive, unsolved technical issues like speckel, regulatory issues and a consumer market that just doesn't care. Some care but most don't.
If you mean the Laser driven Remote Phosphorus i can agree. It was just a musing over the possibilities as an alternative to the single chip LED projectors.

But if you mean single chip DLP RGB Laser projectors I can guaranty that if Laser will take the place of Lamps for projectors in the future because they have solved all the Speckle problems, there will be One Chip DLP Laser projectors. Just like the first LED projectors where one chip DLP.

Diode RGB laser will come down in price and it is much simpler to make a one chip DLP Laser projector than a three chip projector.
A one chip DLP RGB Laser projector is simpler to make than a LED RGB projector.
The unresolved problems for laser projectors are the same regardless of number of chips.
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post #635 of 691 Old 05-31-2013, 05:45 AM
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post #636 of 691 Old 05-31-2013, 07:01 AM
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For 4k tv owners.. For 4k tv owners..
Nothing is never mentioned for 4k projector owners..
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post #637 of 691 Old 06-03-2013, 10:12 AM
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Because at this point, our group is miniscule compared even at this shortly after panel launch. Panels are where the money for content delivery is and the need to provide content to stimulate panel sales.

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post #638 of 691 Old 06-05-2013, 08:28 AM
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The plot thickens...

Red Digital Cinema have booth 4026 at CEDIA this year

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post #639 of 691 Old 06-05-2013, 08:34 AM
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Christie has been showing their Cinema Laser DLP projector several times lately. But it still has Speckle problems. They use several methods to reduce Speckle, one which is to vibrate the screen, which isn't really a usable solution, particularly for HT use.
Maybe they should try to vibrate the DLP DMD in stead using the type of motors used in lenses and also in cameras to vibrate the sensor. wink.gif

They could keep the room and projector static and vibrate the room, or at least the seats. The latter would be good for adult films --- smile.gif
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post #640 of 691 Old 06-05-2013, 09:08 AM
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It could be for the yet to be released Redray player, Now they have to demonstrate it on something, remember its price is $1750, so they could truck out there prototype projector once again. They recently stated the projectors were put on the back burner while they focused on more important products like getting the now 6 month delayed Redray out. They didn't even truck out their prototype projector at NAB.

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post #641 of 691 Old 06-06-2013, 07:21 AM
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source: http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/sony-use-eyeio-compression-4k-viewing-ultrahd-sets

"Looking to avoid the chicken-and-egg scenario that plagued the early days of HDTV and attract new customers to the next-generation UltraHD (4K) TV, Sony Pictures is licensing video compression technology from a company called eyeIO to deliver some of its most popular movies stored on its $699 FMP-X1 4K media player to Sony’s UltraHD TV sets, which will be available this summer."
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post #642 of 691 Old 06-06-2013, 07:48 AM
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source: http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/sony-use-eyeio-compression-4k-viewing-ultrahd-sets

"Looking to avoid the chicken-and-egg scenario that plagued the early days of HDTV and attract new customers to the next-generation UltraHD (4K) TV, Sony Pictures is licensing video compression technology from a company called eyeIO to deliver some of its most popular movies stored on its $699 FMP-X1 4K media player to Sony’s UltraHD TV sets, which will be available this summer."

EyeIO has been selling h.264/AVC based encoders and is working on.265/HEVC encoders but its unclear if Sony is planning to use the existing h.264 based 4K encoding or the new h.263/HEVC encoding. HEVC is the most likely codec to be used for future broadcast TV and satellite 4K distribution and perhaps also blu-ray 4K UHD if it happens. The first generation of HEVC encoders will probably not have the encoding effeciency of later generation products (this was the case for AVC encoders). EyeIO has a h.264 based encoder that does 4K - info HERE. Perhaps Sony will start off with the h.264 encoding then later migrate to the h.265/HEVC based encoding as this may be possible by later downloading the HEVC codec (decoder) software into the customer's video players (or PS4). The following excerpt is from a story on the web site Ultra HDTV:

"EyeIO’s proprietary video technology efficiently processes, compresses, and encodes the massive 4K source files into smaller, more manageable sizes. Though they will not reveal exact numbers, the company claims that they can achieve 4K quality using today’s H.264 standards with impressive bandwidth savings — clearly impressive enough to catch Sony’s attention. An HEVC version of the service is in the works."


Also EyeIO supplys the current encoding software to Netflix and will probably supply the software for Netflix's planned 4K service.
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post #643 of 691 Old 06-06-2013, 07:53 AM
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h.265/HEVC has been high testing since last year. There are chips already from Broadcomm being used for testing.
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post #644 of 691 Old 06-06-2013, 08:03 AM
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h.265/HEVC has been high testing since last year. There are chips already from Broadcomm being used for testing.

Broadcom's BCM7445 chip is currently only being sampled to CE manufactures and production quantity chips seem unlikely to be available in time for use in Sony 4K UHD player (due out within the next month or two). Broadcom's press release from Jan. 2013 said (in part) "Samples of the BCM7445 UltraHD TV video decoder for the home are now available, with volume production expected in mid-2014."


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post #645 of 691 Old 06-09-2013, 07:46 PM
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I want a 4k projector to replace my Epson 8350 eventually. I'll wait until 4k media is available. Heck, we don't even really have a 4k playback system yet. At least we have 4k capable receivers. I just hope they don't change the specs and render them obsolete before they're even useful.
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post #646 of 691 Old 06-10-2013, 08:52 AM
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I want a 4k projector to replace my Epson 8350 eventually. I'll wait until 4k media is available. Heck, we don't even really have a 4k playback system yet. At least we have 4k capable receivers. I just hope they don't change the specs and render them obsolete before they're even useful.

If you are waiting for 4K projectors to get to 8350 price point you will be waiting 10 more years.

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post #647 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 09:04 AM
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If you are waiting for 4K projectors to get to 8350 price point you will be waiting 10 more years.

Not sure I agree with that statement (or at least I hope not for sake of us projector enthusiasts). I actually have no idea how much that Epson goes for, but you can get a 55 inch Sony XBR 4k flat panel now for under $5k (with the 65 inch under $7k) and that's full retail. With others already expressing plans to follow suit (including cheaper models by the Vizios and Hisenses of the world), I can see 4k being the standard for flat panels two years from now with models with much larger screen sizes selling in the $5k range (or below).

Why is that relevant? Well, I understand the concerns with getting the price lower for a 4k projector (the size of the lens, e.g., vw1000, etc.), but projector companies will need to get into that price range within a few years or their business model goes poof. If you are talking 10 years time, forget it
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post #648 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 09:33 AM
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Not sure I agree with that statement (or at least I hope not for sake of us projector enthusiasts). I actually have no idea how much that Epson goes for, but you can get a 55 inch Sony XBR 4k flat panel now for under $5k (with the 65 inch under $7k) and that's full retail. With others already expressing plans to follow suit (including cheaper models by the Vizios and Hisenses of the world), I can see 4k being the standard for flat panels two years from now with models with much larger screen sizes selling in the $5k range (or below).

Why is that relevant? Well, I understand the concerns with getting the price lower for a 4k projector (the size of the lens, e.g., vw1000, etc.), but projector companies will need to get into that price range within a few years or their business model goes poof. If you are talking 10 years time, forget it

Right now we have the Sony VW1000ES at an MSRP of 25K. The MSRP on the 8350 is 1.3K, 5.2% of the VW1000ES. I think it is going to take a long time to get to that price point. I can see getting a 50% reduction for the second year, but the percentage of drop will be less for each of the following years. 4K projectors in the 5K range, sure, but that is a long ways from 1.3K.

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post #649 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 09:42 AM
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Not sure I agree with that statement (or at least I hope not for sake of us projector enthusiasts). I actually have no idea how much that Epson goes for, but you can get a 55 inch Sony XBR 4k flat panel now for under $5k (with the 65 inch under $7k) and that's full retail. With others already expressing plans to follow suit (including cheaper models by the Vizios and Hisenses of the world), I can see 4k being the standard for flat panels two years from now with models with much larger screen sizes selling in the $5k range (or below).

Why is that relevant? Well, I understand the concerns with getting the price lower for a 4k projector (the size of the lens, e.g., vw1000, etc.), but projector companies will need to get into that price range within a few years or their business model goes poof. If you are talking 10 years time, forget it

I don't even see 10 years for it to be 1.3K
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post #650 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 10:30 AM
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Not sure I agree with that statement (or at least I hope not for sake of us projector enthusiasts). I actually have no idea how much that Epson goes for, but you can get a 55 inch Sony XBR 4k flat panel now for under $5k (with the 65 inch under $7k) and that's full retail. With others already expressing plans to follow suit (including cheaper models by the Vizios and Hisenses of the world), I can see 4k being the standard for flat panels two years from now with models with much larger screen sizes selling in the $5k range (or below).

Why is that relevant? Well, I understand the concerns with getting the price lower for a 4k projector (the size of the lens, e.g., vw1000, etc.), but projector companies will need to get into that price range within a few years or their business model goes poof. If you are talking 10 years time, forget it

Yeah I don't buy it taking anywhere near 10 years either, don't forget about the Seiki Digital SE50UY04, 50" 4K, $1500 MSRP, you can buy it right now from a number of places.

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Right now we have the Sony VW1000ES at an MSRP of 25K. The MSRP on the 8350 is 1.3K, 5.2% of the VW1000ES. I think it is going to take a long time to get to that price point. I can see getting a 50% reduction for the second year, but the percentage of drop will be less for each of the following years. 4K projectors in the 5K range, sure, but that is a long ways from 1.3K.

I would not be surprised to see real 4K panels in JVC's e-Shift class machines, and a "high end" (VW95 class) machine from Sony this year (I'm not putting any money on it, but I wouldn't be surprised). And I would not be surprised if there's something from Epson/Panasonic/Etc the year after that. IIRC 1080p machines plummeted in price very quickly, I see no reason to expect 4K to be any different. Once the panel manufacturing is sorted, there's really nothing to keep it from being very cheap (not necessarily high quality though, of course).

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post #651 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 02:57 PM
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Yeah I don't buy it taking anywhere near 10 years either, don't forget about the Seiki Digital SE50UY04, 50" 4K, $1500 MSRP, you can buy it right now from a number of places.
I would not be surprised to see real 4K panels in JVC's e-Shift class machines, and a "high end" (VW95 class) machine from Sony this year (I'm not putting any money on it, but I wouldn't be surprised). And I would not be surprised if there's something from Epson/Panasonic/Etc the year after that. IIRC 1080p machines plummeted in price very quickly, I see no reason to expect 4K to be any different. Once the panel manufacturing is sorted, there's really nothing to keep it from being very cheap (not necessarily high quality though, of course).

There is talk of a $12,000 machine with 4K for this coming year. If that happens, there is your 50% reduction, but we are also talking nearly two years, since the Sony VW1000ES started shipping in January/February of 2011. All products take a big drop once they have been out a while (others join in) and the technology is not so new, but after the first large initial drop, it slows down some. I don't expect prices to plummet a lot until 4K becomes more mainstream. Right now we are not even expecting much 4K content to be available until around 3 more years. I just don't see it happening real quick. 1080P TV's have gotten to that point, but look how long that has taken and that is with 1080P BD available. I think 1080P TV first became available in 2005 and BD's started being available in 2006. If it took 1080P TV's 7 to 8 years to get to this point, I think it will take a niche market like front projectors longer.

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post #652 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 03:04 PM
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Right now we have the Sony VW1000ES at an MSRP of 25K. The MSRP on the 8350 is 1.3K, 5.2% of the VW1000ES. I think it is going to take a long time to get to that price point. I can see getting a 50% reduction for the second year, but the percentage of drop will be less for each of the following years. 4K projectors in the 5K range, sure, but that is a long ways from 1.3K.

Fine. like I said I didn't know the Epson's price range but figured it was at least $3000 given we were in the $3000+ forum. I think the point is that the projector companies are going to have to be competitive in 4k sooner rather than later. The idea that the $25k sony is upposedly the only benchmark is a problem right now. As a projector enthusiast (currently on my old VW80), I find it hard to believe we can't see native 4k under 10k this year the way the panel market is headed. In two years time it should be in the $5k range or they will lose people to panels
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post #653 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 03:37 PM
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Fine. like I said I didn't know the Epson's price range but figured it was at least $3000 given we were in the $3000+ forum. I think the point is that the projector companies are going to have to be competitive in 4k sooner rather than later. The idea that the $25k sony is upposedly the only benchmark is a problem right now. As a projector enthusiast (currently on my old VW80), I find it hard to believe we can't see native 4k under 10k this year the way the panel market is headed. In two years time it should be in the $5k range or they will lose people to panels

The 4k Sony uses very expensive parts to justify its $25K price. That's why its better than any under $15K projector on the market. The Epson 8350 is a very cheap projector and is about 3 years old. Its talked about in the under $3000 part of the forum. Many would invite a less expensive 4k projector in the $5k price range with cheaper components
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post #654 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 03:40 PM
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There is talk of a $12,000 machine with 4K for this coming year. If that happens, there is your 50% reduction, but we are also talking nearly two years, since the Sony VW1000ES started shipping in January/February of 2011. All products take a big drop once they have been out a while (others join in) and the technology is not so new, but after the first large initial drop, it slows down some. I don't expect prices to plummet a lot until 4K becomes more mainstream. Right now we are not even expecting much 4K content to be available until around 3 more years. I just don't see it happening real quick. 1080P TV's have gotten to that point, but look how long that has taken and that is with 1080P BD available. I think 1080P TV first became available in 2005 and BD's started being available in 2006. If it took 1080P TV's 7 to 8 years to get to this point, I think it will take a niche market like front projectors longer.

Fair, enough, like I won't be surprised if there's "affordable" 4K this year, I also will not be surprised if there's nothing below $12k either. Now that said, even if it is another year before we see the ~$7k-10k JVC/Sony 4K machines, that's still only 2 years out and beyond that I have a hard time believing it will be another 8 more before it falls to $2k-3k. If for no other reason than they need a feature to push units. What big things are there to push projector sales? 3D's been out, it's got much improvement left but that's hard to put in a feature list, likewise with contrast. There's Laser, but that seems much farther out than 4k panels (which are already in production).

Just another bit of perspective, 10 years ago at CEDIA, Sony released (announced) the Qualia 004, the first 1080p projector. I bought my BenQ W5000 (which granted was a little more than an Epson 8350 is today) in March of 2008, that's less than 5 years to for 1080p to go from $25k to ~$2.5k, to drop by an order of magnitude.

If we assume the same timetable for 4K, that would put ~$2.5k 4K projectors being available in about 3 years from today.

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post #655 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 04:57 PM
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Fair, enough, like I won't be surprised if there's "affordable" 4K this year, I also will not be surprised if there's nothing below $12k either. Now that said, even if it is another year before we see the ~$7k-10k JVC/Sony 4K machines, that's still only 2 years out and beyond that I have a hard time believing it will be another 8 more before it falls to $2k-3k. If for no other reason than they need a feature to push units. What big things are there to push projector sales? 3D's been out, it's got much improvement left but that's hard to put in a feature list, likewise with contrast. There's Laser, but that seems much farther out than 4k panels (which are already in production).

Just another bit of perspective, 10 years ago at CEDIA, Sony released (announced) the Qualia 004, the first 1080p projector. I bought my BenQ W5000 (which granted was a little more than an Epson 8350 is today) in March of 2008, that's less than 5 years to for 1080p to go from $25k to ~$2.5k, to drop by an order of magnitude.

If we assume the same timetable for 4K, that would put ~$2.5k 4K projectors being available in about 3 years from today.

I will not be surprised to see 4K under $5,000 (MSRP) in three or four years, I just don't think it is going to get down to the disposable projector price ($1,000) point for a long time. I would love to see 4K get down to a reasonable price point for the average person. I just don't see it happening as fast as 1080P, because of a couple things. One we are a few years off from main stream 4K content. A lot of people do not sit close enough to their 1080P TV to be able to tell the difference between 1080P and 720P. Even fewer will see the difference between 4K and 1080P. We here will, but nearly everyone on AVS is not Joe six pack. We are almost half way through year two now, since the VW1000ES is on it's second season. We will be able to talk about this more in a few months. smile.gif

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post #656 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 05:21 PM
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One we are a few years off from main stream 4K content. A lot of people do not sit close enough to their 1080P TV to be able to tell the difference between 1080P and 720P. Even fewer will see the difference between 4K and 1080P. We here will, but nearly everyone on AVS is not Joe six pack. We are almost half way through year two now, since the VW1000ES is on it's second season. We will be able to talk about this more in a few months. smile.gif

The J6P thing goes both ways though, I don't think J6P will care, or understand that they have to be sitting "close" for it to matter, I'm sure that just like 1080p it will simply be what you get, unless you're buying really cheap. And if you look back at the 1080p development, if you want quality (whether you really understand it, or you just go with what the salesman tells you), you'll be getting 4K since that's where the development in image quality will be.

I guess though, re timeline, low cost always seems to get here quicker than we expect. I remember looking at projectors and for ages they were the sole domain of the wealthy. Then Sanyo/Panasonic shattered that barrier with the AE100/Z1, their 540p machines. I remember reading AVS with excitement since those were the first machines that were "affordable", it took us ages to get to that point. And then it took quite a long time for 720p to get affordable. And then there was the explosion of $2-3k 720p HD2 DLP machines and I finally jumped into the projector hobby. Then only two projectors (and about 2 years) after that we had 1080p that was less than the 720p we bought the year before.

I think right now we're at the beginning of 4K, looking at how expensive it is, impatiently thinking "it's going to take forever to be affordable." But then again, a year ago I never would have expected a sub $1500 50" flat panel to be out already. I think in a year or two (or three wink.gif) we'll be looking back wondering where the time went that "just yesterday" 4k in the home was $25k.

It can't come quick enough while we're waiting, but once it's here we'll wonder where it came from all the sudden.

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post #657 of 691 Old 06-11-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

The J6P thing goes both ways though, I don't think J6P will care, or understand that they have to be sitting "close" for it to matter, I'm sure that just like 1080p it will simply be what you get, unless you're buying really cheap. And if you look back at the 1080p development, if you want quality (whether you really understand it, or you just go with what the salesman tells you), you'll be getting 4K since that's where the development in image quality will be.

I guess though, re timeline, low cost always seems to get here quicker than we expect. I remember looking at projectors and for ages they were the sole domain of the wealthy. Then Sanyo/Panasonic shattered that barrier with the AE100/Z1, their 540p machines. I remember reading AVS with excitement since those were the first machines that were "affordable", it took us ages to get to that point. And then it took quite a long time for 720p to get affordable. And then there was the explosion of $2-3k 720p HD2 DLP machines and I finally jumped into the projector hobby. Then only two projectors (and about 2 years) after that we had 1080p that was less than the 720p we bought the year before.

I think right now we're at the beginning of 4K, looking at how expensive it is, impatiently thinking "it's going to take forever to be affordable." But then again, a year ago I never would have expected a sub $1500 50" flat panel to be out already. I think in a year or two (or three wink.gif) we'll be looking back wondering where the time went that "just yesterday" 4k in the home was $25k.

It can't come quick enough while we're waiting, but once it's here we'll wonder where it came from all the sudden.

It is the Joe Six Pack wife that is going to be with him, looking at a 60" 1080P right beside a 60" 4K. Viewing from 10' back and saying; " I can't tell a difference, why spend twice as much?"

Back in the 90's I built a room onto my house, to get the HT out of the living room. What started out as a den/HT turned into a huge (over 12,000 CF) family room. Complete with a lot of windows. Most of the back wall toward the lake is glass. At that time I never dreamed I would get a projector, so I compromised with the wife and put in all the windows. Not a huge problem with direct view TV. Back then projectors were 20k plus. If I had known then that projectors would get as cheap as they have, I would have built two rooms. smile.gif Like you guys, I am looking forward to 4K. Then maybe I will move closer than 1.0 screen width. smile.gif

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post #658 of 691 Old 06-12-2013, 04:38 AM
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Most of the back wall toward the lake is glass. At that time I never dreamed I would get a projector, so I compromised with the wife and put in all the windows

That's a good bit of wisdom, never put the HT on the side of the house that faces the lake biggrin.gif

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post #659 of 691 Old 06-12-2013, 07:19 AM
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Once again, i think my point isn't when the JSPs can get their cheap projectors, but when we can get 4k in the price range of this particular sunforum ($3k plus). For a number of years, the sweet spot for the Sonys and JVCs has been in the 5-8k street range for their better projectors (I am not talking about the Qualias or the 1000ES which on release should be in the $20k+ forum) and I worry that there has been a little bit of setting expectations here that we won't see 4k in that range for a number of years so we would be best to continue to upgrade our 1080p projectors for minor improvements in contrast, etc. That would be disappointing as high quality flat panels are already there. I wouldn't be shocked to see very large (high quality) 4k flat panels in the next year or two that would tempt some projector owners to stray if Sony, JVC and others can't get into this range with 4k.

The idea that we will only see the next version of e-shift at Cedia with (possibly) a $12k Sony doesn't seem right
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post #660 of 691 Old 06-12-2013, 10:20 AM
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Once again, i think my point isn't when the JSPs can get their cheap projectors, but when we can get 4k in the price range of this particular sunforum ($3k plus). For a number of years, the sweet spot for the Sonys and JVCs has been in the 5-8k street range for their better projectors (I am not talking about the Qualias or the 1000ES which on release should be in the $20k+ forum) and I worry that there has been a little bit of setting expectations here that we won't see 4k in that range for a number of years so we would be best to continue to upgrade our 1080p projectors for minor improvements in contrast, etc. That would be disappointing as high quality flat panels are already there. I wouldn't be shocked to see very large (high quality) 4k flat panels in the next year or two that would tempt some projector owners to stray if Sony, JVC and others can't get into this range with 4k.

The idea that we will only see the next version of e-shift at Cedia with (possibly) a $12k Sony doesn't seem right

Now I agree with that. I fully expect to see 4K projectors in the 5 to 8K range before too long. I responded to a poster that was asking about 4K at the 1.3k MSRP price point. Huge difference.

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