Predictions for 2013 4K projectors - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

JVC will have a consumer 4K at their top end, an eshit 4K, and a non eshift 1080p.

Sony will have a cheaper price point 4K and/ot a laser projector

Looks like you took an 'eshit' on my prediction there Mark.
Is this potentially inside info we are getting here...?
Ok, I'll swap 'no consumer 4k JVC model' for 'very expensive consumer 4k JVC model'. We'll see in... 8 months I guess

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post #92 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 07:05 PM
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A question I have about the new JCV pj's is whether they will be significantly higher brightness than they have traditionally been (i.e., ~ 800-900 lumens calibrated).    The real benefit of 4K is to be able to go to larger than average screens sizes (otherwise 1080p is just fine), but this requires more lumens.    The Sony 1000ES addressed both of these issues--4K and much higher brightness--and for JVC to have a successful 4K product it needs to also boost the lumen output beyond what they have produced so far.

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post #93 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

A question I have about the new JCV pj's is whether they will be significantly higher brightness than they have traditionally been (i.e., ~ 800-900 lumens calibrated).    The real benefit of 4K is to be able to go to larger than average screens sizes (otherwise 1080p is just fine), but this requires more lumens.    The Sony 1000ES addressed both of these issues--4K and much higher brightness--and for JVC to have a successful 4K product it needs to also boost the lumen output beyond what they have produced so far.

Joe Kane had an interesting article in this months issue of widescreenreview. The article was about UltraHD in general and at one point he noted that to get the full benefit of UltraHD, at normal seating distances, the screen should be no smaller than 10 feet wide. 120"+ wide screens (138"+ diagonal @ 1.78:1) are hard enough to fill as it is in 2D, let alone 3D, with current projectors. I completely agree that we need to look at the brightness issue a lot more especially when we are talking about native 4K machines. I don't want to move to a 4K system where it necessitates me to have a high gain screen. I think most want unity gain screens as there are virtually no seating restrictions and considerably more mounting options for the the projector for these types of screens.

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post #94 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 07:17 PM
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if there was a V2.0 of the 1000, I was expecting the lamp pulsing technique to be incorpated into a future model. Perhaps this will make it's way into the lower end 4K unit. I'd like to see 1500-2000 3D lumens.


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post #95 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 07:25 PM
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Screen size wise the solution is easy.....just move ones seating closer.

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post #96 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Screen size wise the solution is easy.....just move ones seating closer.

There's only so close you can sit. If you have a 120" diagonal 1.78:1 screen the farthest you could sit is 7 feet away to get the full benefit. Obviously the smaller you go the closer you'd need to sit. I don't think most people have (or want) their seats that close.

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post #97 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

There's only so close you can sit. If you have a 120" diagonal 1.78:1 screen the farthest you could sit is 7 feet away to get the full benefit. Obviously the smaller you go the closer you'd need to sit. I don't think most people have (or want) their seats that close.

Fair enough...to maintain the same viewing angle and sit 10ft away one will need a 171 inch screen......and a proportionally brighter projector.....how big a room will one need!! Moving closer would be the most economical, the end result in a darkened room will be similar..

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post #98 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post


 .... I don't want to move to a 4K system where it necessitates me to have a high gain screen. .....

Ho, ho--I have the Sony 1000 AND a high gain screen (HP2.4), with a 12 ft wide screen.     I wouldn't have sufficient brightness even with the 1000 without the HP screen.    (But I am in low lamp until the lamp dims.)

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post #99 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Ho, ho--I have the Sony 1000 AND a high gain screen (HP2.4), with a 12 ft wide screen.     I wouldn't have sufficient brightness even with the 1000 without the HP screen.    (But I am in low lamp until the lamp dims.)

I feel your pain. I have an almost 7ft wide screen with a High Power 2.8 gain screen material paired with my Marantz VP-11S1. I feel anything over 100" diagonal, even when paired with this screen, would be too dim for my preference on this projector. Though I do have the iris clamped down to get a better black level. If I were to open it fully I could do a larger screen. I don't want to HAVE to use this screen. There are a few compromises in PQ when using this screen material.

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post #100 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post


Fair enough...to maintain the same viewing angle and sit 10ft away one will need a 171 inch screen......and a proportionally brighter projector.....how big a room will one need!! Moving closer would be the most economical, the end result in a darkened room will be similar..


Viewing angle is not the whole story.   I.e., sitting 3 ft from a 3 ft wide screen doesn't give one the same experience as sitting 12 ft from a 12 ft wide screen.    (I actually sit 11 ft from my 12 ft wide one.)

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post #101 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 08:36 PM
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what is the calibrated lumen output of that Marantz projector? The RS55 @ -11 is nice and bright centered on the 2.8HP 142" 16:9.

miller - The VW1000 must look excellent on that large HP.

I also sit close, around 14" feet from my screen. It's very immersive with a nice sized screen and close seating distance. e-shift definitely helps here.


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post #102 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 08:43 PM
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3' is a small screen......but some of these tiny HD VR panels can sure simulate a large screen experience....! In a totally darkend room(I'm Guessing) most wouldn't pick the difference between a 150" or a 170'" screen if sitting at the same angle, if there were no other references of scale.

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post #103 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 09:04 PM
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There is something I call the "auditorium" effect and there is almost always something in the room to give your eyes a point of scale reference. A larger more open venue gives a higher immersion, no way around it.



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post #104 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

what is the calibrated lumen output of that Marantz projector? The RS55 @ -11 is nice and bright centered on the 2.8HP 142" 16:9.

I don't currently own a light meter so I couldn't tell you. I saw someone recommend one in another thread. It was only $19. I'll have to pick one up.

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post #105 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 09:29 PM
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This was the model:

http://www.amazon.com/Light-Meter-LX1010B-Luxmeter-display/dp/B000JWUT6O

Would something like this suffice for a pretty accurate reading?

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post #106 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 09:43 PM
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I use this one, but a good inexpensive alternative is here.

it provides the same results as the more expensive 813.


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post #107 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 09:56 PM
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Nice. Thanks for the recommendation. I just bought a LX1330B on ebay for $30. I'll let you know what results I get once the meter arrives.

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post #108 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

....
miller - The VW1000 must look excellent on that large HP.

 .....

Indeed it does; the giant plasma look.    And coderguy is certainly right about the 'auditorium effect'.

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post #109 of 691 Old 02-02-2013, 10:09 PM
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I wouldn't want to see closer rather than having a theater effect. That's the whole point for me, to replicate a theater
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post #110 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 12:52 AM
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I'm with Highjinx re the e-shift JVC with 4K inputs.

I don't get much improvement from the added resolution in my setup from e-shift/4K (88" diag 16x9 from about 3 meters), but 4K inputs would get me the new HDMI 1.5 (or 2.0) standard which might (hopefully) bring other goodies to the table, like higher refresh rates in 3D, and possibly increased color resolution for 2D. YCbCr420 with 8 bits and half the chroma we get on bluray stinks, so if the upcoming bluray 4K gives us 10 or even 12 bits of resolution with full chroma, that would make a much bigger impact on PQ in my setup than going from 2K to 4K. The increased contrast is mostly due to the picture processing part of e-shift, and I ended up turning it down anyway as I don't like the processed look it gives the picture. If and when content comes up with better color definition, higher frame rates and less banding, I do want to be able to make the most of it in my lowly set up:).

This is one of the reasons why I didn't upgrade my rs45 to the rs48: the increase to faux 4K resolution didn't make any difference in my room, and I didn't like the over processed look of eshift unless all the dials were shifted down to 0. Without the 4K inputs, there is no way I can benefit from the other improvements we can expect from HDMI 1.5 / Bluray 4K, so I skipped the upgrade.

I certainly won't upgrade to true 4K projectors anytime soon because I can't justify it in my existing set up, but give me a JVC with 4K inputs and e-shift (unless SONY moves to e-shift, they don't have any reason to do so), and I'll upgrade immediately, for half the price of true 4K and 95% of the improvement in my set up. Yes, the actual resolution will be only half of true 4K, but all the other improvements should be there, so it would be a great solution while the cost of true 4K drops further (and while I save to get a bigger house:)).

So I'm definitely hoping that the successors of the rs48 and up will offer this next year. I'm sure there is a market for true 4K at 10K which might be the next top of the line JVC (although it's more probably going to be 15-20K), but there is an even bigger market for faux-4k with 4K inputs at 5K, especially for people do not have the screen size to justify true 4K. Add a VP with 4K processing and Darbee (which should be available by then), and you will get a 4K ready solution that should be very watchable, still for less than a true 4K projector.

Until there is 4K content in abondance (can't see this happening for 1-2 years, just like me moving house), that will get my ticket.
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post #111 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I'm with Highjinx re the e-shift JVC with 4K inputs.

I don't get much improvement from the added resolution in my setup from e-shift/4K (88" diag 16x9 from about 3 meters), but 4K inputs would get me the new HDMI 1.5 (or 2.0) standard which might (hopefully) bring other goodies to the table, like higher refresh rates in 3D, and possibly increased color resolution for 2D. YCbCr420 with 8 bits and half the chroma we get on bluray stinks, so if the upcoming bluray 4K gives us 10 or even 12 bits of resolution with full chroma, that would make a much bigger impact on PQ in my setup than going from 2K to 4K. The increased contrast is mostly due to the picture processing part of e-shift, and I ended up turning it down anyway as I don't like the processed look it gives the picture. If and when content comes up with better color definition, higher frame rates and less banding, I do want to be able to make the most of it in my lowly set up:).

This is one of the reasons why I didn't upgrade my rs45 to the rs48: the increase to faux 4K resolution didn't make any difference in my room, and I didn't like the over processed look of eshift unless all the dials were shifted down to 0. Without the 4K inputs, there is no way I can benefit from the other improvements we can expect from HDMI 1.5 / Bluray 4K, so I skipped the upgrade.

I certainly won't upgrade to true 4K projectors anytime soon because I can't justify it in my existing set up, but give me a JVC with 4K inputs and e-shift (unless SONY moves to e-shift, they don't have any reason to do so), and I'll upgrade immediately, for half the price of true 4K and 95% of the improvement in my set up. Yes, the actual resolution will be only half of true 4K, but all the other improvements should be there, so it would be a great solution while the cost of true 4K drops further (and while I save to get a bigger house:)).

So I'm definitely hoping that the successors of the rs48 and up will offer this next year. I'm sure there is a market for true 4K at 10K which might be the next top of the line JVC (although it's more probably going to be 15-20K), but there is an even bigger market for faux-4k with 4K inputs at 5K, especially for people do not have the screen size to justify true 4K. Add a VP with 4K processing and Darbee (which should be available by then), and you will get a 4K ready solution that should be very watchable, still for less than a true 4K projector.

Until there is 4K content in abondance (can't see this happening for 1-2 years, just like me moving house), that will get my ticket.
Wouldn't you need 4k panels for all the things you talked about? It would be good if 2k panels could give us those things and would cost less. If the 4k inputs are just going to downconvert back to 2k, why not just continue with eshift. If the new hdmi is going to work with 2k panels, why add a 4k input?
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post #112 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 03:58 AM
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Wouldn't you need 4k panels for all the things you talked about? It would be good if 2k panels could give us those things and would cost less. If the 4k inputs are just going to downconvert back to 2k, why not just continue with eshift. If the new hdmi is going to work with 2k panels, why add a 4k input?

The new HDMI standard will bring support for new modes which need higher bandwidth (for example 3D 4K at 48fps, or 3D 2K at 60fps), with HDMI 1.4 3D is limited to 24fps (except for 720p60). The new bluray 4K standard will need the new HDMI input, and hopefully will bring better color resolution than YCbCr420 encoding.

An eshift projector with 4K inputs will have to conform with the new HDMI interface in order to be compatible with future 4K sources (including the upcoming bluray 4K, or an HTPC/server with a compatible graphics card), which means the PJ will get internally the full native 4K picture. It will then use e-shift to display half (or a quarter) of the information in one 1080p frame, and another half (or quarter) in another frame shifted diagonally, but the idea would be that there is no upscaling/downscaling involved, only a temporal splitting of the information to display (a bit like an interlaced display, except with eshift you get an increase in resolution compared to 2K, just not the same as true 4K, only half).

The example given between 5.1 and stereo is wrong. To keep the analogy, eshift doesn't convert 5.1 to stereo. It converts stereo to virtual surround (it extrapolates info which isn't there to simulate virtual additional channels). Eshift with 4K input would convert 5.1 to virtual surround (convert real information to virtual channels, so no guesswork involved and clear improvement in accuracy), and true 4K would play native 5.1 (play real information to discrete channels, obviously the best solution but at a cost). This is why we can expect an increase in quality with e-shift with 4K inputs, as the information is real, not interpolated. And this is only taking horizontal/vertical resolution into account, not improved color resolution with less banding etc (ie how many discrete colors can be saved for each pixel in the 4K picture).

At the moment, the JVCs with eshift take a 1080p picture, upscale it to 4K (so invent information that isn't there with extrapolation) and then display two halves of the picture shifted diagonally. Highjinx has already - and correctly - explained the e-shift process.

A JVC with 4K inputs means that you don't do the upscaling (you don't invent information which isn't there), you take the native 4K picture with all the information and apply the eshift process to display it using 2K panels/optics. But at no time is the picture downscaled again.

Benefits are 1) no upscaling (or downscaling, you need to learn more about how eshift works if this is still unclear to you, it definitely doesn't downscale a 4K picture to 1080p, only displays part of it at any given time, say only even lines or something like that) which is very different; and 2) whichever benefits come with HDMI 1.5/2.0 and bluray 4K (like higher frame rates, increased color resolution etc) will still be fully there in the eshifted picture.
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post #113 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I use this one, but a good inexpensive alternative is here.

it provides the same results as the more expensive 813.

Thx for posting the $40 meter, I've added that to my shopping cart.


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post #114 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 04:45 AM
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Manni01,

I was asking for a better understanding of the new hdmi formats, I didn't know it required new inputs. That's what confused me. I know how eshift works since I have owned both eshift models. But thanks I understand what you mean now.
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post #115 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Manni01,

I was asking for a better understanding of the new hdmi formats, I didn't know it required new inputs. That's what confused me. I know how eshift works since I have owned both eshift models. But thanks I understand what you mean now.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yes HDMI 1.5/2.0 requires new inputs because it needs more powerful chips (working at a higher frequency) to handle the increased bandwidth.
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post #116 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 06:35 AM
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Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yes HDMI 1.5/2.0 requires new inputs because it needs more powerful chips (working at a higher frequency) to handle the increased bandwidth.
No problem, confusion happens all the time. But I agree, that would be good to have in the under $5K model. Its not like we have 4k sources anyways
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post #117 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Gee Mark...I hope you mean't E-Shift smile.gif.......this would be a 1080 model with 4K inputs?

I left off an f in on of my eshifts. I corrected it. I am not critical of eshift. I think it is an economical way of increasing pixel density on screen and a stop gap measure until JVC takes the next step. It is not a step that has to be taken until 4K source material starts to arrive.But that will happen shortly. The Redray player is comming and content will be sold on flash drives and SD cards. There is already some now like Timescape and there swill nbe more. like bluray the flow will be slow at first and I doubt we will see any major studeo releases until Sony, if the companies survivives, gets its promised non optical disc source supply and playback system operational this summer.

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post #118 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 08:42 AM
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So would 4k require new equipment? Like a new AV Receiver and Oppo?
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post #119 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

So would 4k require new equipment? Like a new AV Receiver and Oppo?

Depends on the content. At the moment, we have no standard. The redray player is one possible source, the Sony server is another, an HTPC with one of the latest AMD 7xxx is another, but until HDMI 1.5 and bluray 4K are finalised you're taking a big gamble.
New AVR not necessary if you get a new 4K VP (or a new BD 4K player with dual output) and place the AVR on a second HDMI out for audio only. There will be no new audio format supported by the new HDMI standard, only new video modes/formats.
But a new source to play 4K content, almost certainly.
Also the VW1000ES will need to be updated to handle the new HDMI standard. Sony said they would offer an upgrade board (unlikely to be free), but as Mark says, that's only if they are not bankrupt by then.
HDMI 1.5/2.0 will be released this year, but bluray 4K is more elusive. However, until there is a standard, think bluray vs HDVD and pick one only if you feel adventurous:).
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post #120 of 691 Old 02-03-2013, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

The new HDMI standard will bring support for new modes which need higher bandwidth (for example 3D 4K at 48fps, or 3D 2K at 60fps), with HDMI 1.4 3D is limited to 24fps (except for 720p60). The new bluray 4K standard will need the new HDMI input, and hopefully will bring better color resolution than YCbCr420 encoding.

An eshift projector with 4K inputs will have to conform with the new HDMI interface in order to be compatible with future 4K sources (including the upcoming bluray 4K, or an HTPC/server with a compatible graphics card), which means the PJ will get internally the full native 4K picture. It will then use e-shift to display half (or a quarter) of the information in one 1080p frame, and another half (or quarter) in another frame shifted diagonally, but the idea would be that there is no upscaling/downscaling involved, only a temporal splitting of the information to display (a bit like an interlaced display, except with eshift you get an increase in resolution compared to 2K, just not the same as true 4K, only half).

The example given between 5.1 and stereo is wrong. To keep the analogy, eshift doesn't convert 5.1 to stereo. It converts stereo to virtual surround (it extrapolates info which isn't there to simulate virtual additional channels). Eshift with 4K input would convert 5.1 to virtual surround (convert real information to virtual channels, so no guesswork involved and clear improvement in accuracy), and true 4K would play native 5.1 (play real information to discrete channels, obviously the best solution but at a cost). This is why we can expect an increase in quality with e-shift with 4K inputs, as the information is real, not interpolated. And this is only taking horizontal/vertical resolution into account, not improved color resolution with less banding etc (ie how many discrete colors can be saved for each pixel in the 4K picture).

At the moment, the JVCs with eshift take a 1080p picture, upscale it to 4K (so invent information that isn't there with extrapolation) and then display two halves of the picture shifted diagonally. Highjinx has already - and correctly - explained the e-shift process.

A JVC with 4K inputs means that you don't do the upscaling (you don't invent information which isn't there), you take the native 4K picture with all the information and apply the eshift process to display it using 2K panels/optics. But at no time is the picture downscaled again.

Benefits are 1) no upscaling (or downscaling, you need to learn more about how eshift works if this is still unclear to you, it definitely doesn't downscale a 4K picture to 1080p, only displays part of it at any given time, say only even lines or something like that) which is very different; and 2) whichever benefits come with HDMI 1.5/2.0 and bluray 4K (like higher frame rates, increased color resolution etc) will still be fully there in the eshifted picture.

There is no upcoming 4K Bluray.

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