Some thoughts on front projection - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 05-20-2012, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I just read a fairly comprehensive issue of Consumer Reports covering TVs.

They seem to think they are a really good choice and even mention 100" screens. They liked LcOS the best, but said DLP was a close second.

My problem with FP has always been the fact that using a reflective white screen means that any ambient light is a problem, because the idea is to bounce back, even amplify, light that strikes it.

Some people have mentioned Black Diamond screens that try to be selective about what light is reflected yielding a darker less ambient light sensitive screen that still gives a bright image. If the artifacts created aren't too great, I might consider FP with such a screen.

I'm not giving anyone $35,000 for a projector though. Thinking about a 90 to 100 inch screen, what brands and models do you guys favor in the $6K to $8K range?

I have no problem with high watt 1,000 hour projector bulbs.

Floyd

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post #2 of 15 Old 05-20-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

I just read a fairly comprehensive issue of Consumer Reports covering TVs.

They seem to think they are a really good choice and even mention 100" screens. They liked LcOS the best, but said DLP was a close second.

My problem with FP has always been the fact that using a reflective white screen means that any ambient light is a problem, because the idea is to bounce back, even amplify, light that strikes it.

Some people have mentioned Black Diamond screens that try to be selective about what light is reflected yielding a darker less ambient light sensitive screen that still gives a bright image. If the artifacts created aren't too great, I might consider FP with such a screen.

I'm not giving anyone $35,000 for a projector though. Thinking about a 90 to 100 inch screen, what brands and models do you guys favor in the $6K to $8K range?

I have no problem with high watt 1,000 hour projector bulbs.

Floyd

For LCoS projectors in that price range the best are the JVC DLA-RS55 (or identical DLS-X70) and the Sony VPL-VW95.

For a projector with a brighter picture mode for use during the daytime when, I assume, you have the most issues with ambient light, take a look at the Epson 5010 (under $3K) or the Epson 6010 (under $4K). These are LCD projectors that are not quite as good for 2D movie viewing in a totally dark home theater as the JVC or Sony LCoS models above, but do have an advantage when you need additional image brightness for 3D viewing or when you are not able to fully control the ambient lighting in the room.

The best buy for a fairly bright DLP 3D projector is probably the BenQ W7000 (under $3K). Its good for 3D (less 3D crosstalk/ghosting than any of the LCoS or LCD projectors) and fairly good for 2D (but not as good as any of the above models).

All of the above suggested models include lens shift which is important as this allows flexibility for where the projector is installed relative to the screen position. Some DLP projectors lack lens shift and this can really limit your options for projector mounting location (and may simply not work with a specific room layout).

I suggest you call Mike (585-671-2968) or Mark (240-876-2536) at the AV Science Store (sponsor of this forum) as they offer great service and very good prices. They also can advise on screens. For detailed reviews on these, and other, projectors - see the projectorreviews.com web site. Also there are threads here on the AVS Forum on these projectors.

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post #3 of 15 Old 05-20-2012, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

For LCoS projectors in that price range the best are the JVC DLA-RS55 (or identical DLS-X70) and the Sony VPL-VW95.

For a projector with a brighter picture mode for use during the daytime when, I assume, you have the most issues with ambient light, take a look at the Epson 5010 (under $3K) or the Epson 6010 (under $4K). These are LCD projectors that are not quite as good for 2D movie viewing in a totally dark home theater as the JVC or Sony LCoS models above, but do have an advantage when you need additional image brightness for 3D viewing or when you are not able to fully control the ambient lighting in the room.

The best buy for a fairly bright DLP 3D projector is probably the BenQ W7000 (under $3K). Its good for 3D (less 3D crosstalk/ghosting than any of the LCoS or LCD projectors) and fairly good for 2D (but not as good as any of the above models).

All of the above suggested models include lens shift which is important as this allows flexibility for where the projector is installed relative to the screen position. Some DLP projectors lack lens shift and this can really limit your options for projector mounting location (and may simply not work with a specific room layout).

I suggest you call Mike (585-671-2968) or Mark (240-876-2536) at the AV Science Store (sponsor of this forum) as they offer great service and very good prices. They also can advise on screens. For detailed reviews on these, and other, projectors - see the projectorreviews.com web site. Also there are threads here on the AVS Forum on these projectors.

I will check out all of these and give the guys a call. This is an area that Consumer Reports really sucks at. They will rate only middle of the price items. I suspect it is because they can't afford to buy one of each of the mid upper tier stuff because they can't afford to buy one of each to test.

What would you rank as best in your opinion, LcOS or DLP? I know there are three chip models, but those really are pricey.

BTW: My room is 14' x 20'. It is a perfect rectangle with no windows and only one solid side door which is in the middle of a long wall. I'm going to use low output, eyeball spots in the ceiling and they will be controlled via a dimmer. I'm experimenting with different colors. I'm trying to decide between green and blue. Red is just too hard to see by.

Also, the room will have deep blue walls with bit lighter blue carpet. I'm going to leave the ceiling white so it can work with bright wall sconces for non viewing lighting. There should be room for a 100" + screen.

I'm hoping I can connect the projector to a satellite, BR, and receiver via electronic communication instead of cables. Do you think this last would be feasible? I want to have the devices under the screen.

Thanks,

Floyd

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post #4 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

I will check out all of these and give the guys a call. This is an area that Consumer Reports really sucks at. They will rate only middle of the price items. I suspect it is because they can't afford to buy one of each of the mid upper tier stuff because they can't afford to buy one of each to test.

What would you rank as best in your opinion, LcOS or DLP? I know there are three chip models, but those really are pricey.

BTW: My room is 14' x 20'. It is a perfect rectangle with no windows and only one solid side door which is in the middle of a long wall. I'm going to use low output, eyeball spots in the ceiling and they will be controlled via a dimmer. I'm experimenting with different colors. I'm trying to decide between green and blue. Red is just too hard to see by.

Also, the room will have deep blue walls with bit lighter blue carpet. I'm going to leave the ceiling white so it can work with bright wall sconces for non viewing lighting. There should be room for a 100" + screen.

I'm hoping I can connect the projector to a satellite, BR, and receiver via electronic communication instead of cables. Do you think this last would be feasible? I want to have the devices under the screen.

Thanks,

Floyd

Depending on your seating arrangement, you could use perhaps a 120" (diagonal) screen (16 x 9 aspect ratio). This would be appropriate for a viewing distance as close as about 12 ft.

If you could mount the projector just a little above eye level when seated (e.g., mounted just 50" to 60" above floor level), then a Da-lite screen using their "high power" fabric (with a gain of 2.4) could help provide a very bright image and reject light coming from the sides of the room.

A dark color for the ceiling would be a help for keeping deep blacks with the projected image (for when you can keep the room dark).

As for LCoS vs. DLP - 3-chip DLP projectors are very expensive (e.g., over $15K) will all LCoS projectors use 3 chips (one each for red, blue and green primary colors). LCoS and DLP projectors present a somewhat different look while many feel that LCoS has a more film-like look and DLP has a more digital look. The single chip DLP projectors generally use a rotating color wheel and some people tend to see what is called a "rainbow effect" that can be distracting. The higher the speed of the color wheel (up to 6x), the less visible the rainbow effect. The better LCoS projectors will have deeper blacks with more details visible in dark scenes as compared to DLP projectors, but only if your room is kept very dark (sometimes called a 'bat cave').

Epson does offer a wireless signal connection with some of their models, such as the 5010e (the 'e' at the end signifies the wireless capability).

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post #5 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 07:52 AM
 
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Is $6k-$8k the budget for just the projector or does it include the screen? If you plan on watching with a fair amount of ambient light, a screen like the BD would be a good choice but it will eat a $2k-$3k of your budget.
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post #6 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 09:42 AM
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Perhaps taking measures to eliminate / control ambient light would be feasible....
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post #7 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Depending on your seating arrangement, you could use perhaps a 120" (diagonal) screen (16 x 9 aspect ratio). This would be appropriate for a viewing distance as close as about 12 ft.

If you could mount the projector just a little above eye level when seated (e.g., mounted just 50" to 60" above floor level), then a Da-lite screen using their "high power" fabric (with a gain of 2.4) could help provide a very bright image and reject light coming from the sides of the room.

A dark color for the ceiling would be a help for keeping deep blacks with the projected image (for when you can keep the room dark).

As for LCoS vs. DLP - 3-chip DLP projectors are very expensive (e.g., over $15K) will all LCoS projectors use 3 chips (one each for red, blue and green primary colors). LCoS and DLP projectors present a somewhat different look while many feel that LCoS has a more film-like look and DLP has a more digital look. The single chip DLP projectors generally use a rotating color wheel and some people tend to see what is called a "rainbow effect" that can be distracting. The higher the speed of the color wheel (up to 6x), the less visible the rainbow effect. The better LCoS projectors will have deeper blacks with more details visible in dark scenes as compared to DLP projectors, but only if your room is kept very dark (sometimes called a 'bat cave').

Epson does offer a wireless signal connection with some of their models, such as the 5010e (the 'e' at the end signifies the wireless capability).

Thanks for all the info.

When you say 50-60" above floor level, how far back would the projector be from a ~ 100 screen? The reason is that I'm having a house built, and I will have access to the walls and floor before there are any obstructions. I need to run any cables before they seal everything up around June 10. I could come down from the ceiling or up from the floor to mount the projector. I also have to tell the contractor where to place an outlet for the projector. Since you've given me the height for the projector, all I'm lacking is the distance from the screen to the lens.

So far, I'm running about 180 feet of 14 gauge speaker wire, and 70 feet of RCA cable (for the back subs). I've lost track of all the boxes and wall plates I've bought.

Thanks again for all the help.

Floyd

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post #8 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Is $6k-$8k the budget for just the projector or does it include the screen? If you plan on watching with a fair amount of ambient light, a screen like the BD would be a good choice but it will eat a $2k-$3k of your budget.

6 to 8 K was what I had in mind for the projector. A BD screen could cost 3K? Wow! I didn't think they would be that expensive!

With no lights, the theater will be pitch black. I'm going to use some very weak downward facing ceiling spots that will be blue that reaches into the UV. By experimenting, that color temperature light is the least noticeable on a dark screen. A white screen might glow like crazy with blue-uv light, and I'd have to pick something like deep red. None of the light would fall on the screen, just behind it and around the seating area. This will be just bright enough to see a beer or a remote.

The walls will have bright white sconces for non-viewing situations.

I appreciate everyone's input. I had shied away from front projectors before, but now I'm really interested.

Floyd

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post #9 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 12:29 PM
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Just for reference, I have been using my Sony VW60 for five years now. This model is one of the ancestors of the VW 95 above mentioned. There are mirrors, white walls and ceiling and some ambient light coming in in my theater room.

I run a 120 inch gray Elite screen. I have never had an issue with blacks. Just been a pretty good experience and I doubt I will ever go back to TV sets.

I am writing this only to advise that there are inexpensive screen options that work in a less than ideal, ambient lit environment. You just don't have to get the most expensive equipment in order to have an excellent experience.
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post #10 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Just for reference, I have been using my Sony VW60 for five years now. This model is one of the ancestors of the VW 95 above mentioned. There are mirrors, white walls and ceiling and some ambient light coming in in my theater room.

I run a 120 inch gray Elite screen. I have never had an issue with blacks. Just been a pretty good experience and I doubt I will ever go back to TV sets.

I am writing this only to advise that there are inexpensive screen options that work in a less than ideal, ambient lit environment. You just don't have to get the most expensive equipment in order to have an excellent experience.

Thanks! This is very encouraging, and I'm going to try it. Consumer Reports just loves plasma, but I haven't seen a 110" model. As I understand it now, FP provides the best image. My current Mitts 73" DLP has a high speed 7 color wheel. That gives RGB and the subtractives YMC. I'm not sure what the seventh segment is, but the color is astonishing. I've never seen any hint of rainbows, so I think a DLP projector is what I would pick.

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post #11 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 01:14 PM
 
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Seven segment wheels are typically RGBx2 (no YMC) and have a dark green segment. Not sure on the Mits though, just most 7 segment wheels use that combo. The RGBx2 is for doubling the color wheel speed. The color wheel spins at 3x with 2 RGB segments making it a 6x speed color wheel.
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post #12 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Thanks for all the info.

When you say 50-60" above floor level, how far back would the projector be from a ~ 100 screen? The reason is that I'm having a house built, and I will have access to the walls and floor before there are any obstructions. I need to run any cables before they seal everything up around June 10. I could come down from the ceiling or up from the floor to mount the projector. I also have to tell the contractor where to place an outlet for the projector. Since you've given me the height for the projector, all I'm lacking is the distance from the screen to the lens.

So far, I'm running about 180 feet of 14 gauge speaker wire, and 70 feet of RCA cable (for the back subs). I've lost track of all the boxes and wall plates I've bought.

Thanks again for all the help.

Floyd

Give us a call and we can talk about mounting location, screen size and viewing distance. You also may want to consider future projector mounting. With a 12' viewing distance, I would probably look at a 110" screen.

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post #13 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

6 to 8 K was what I had in mind for the projector. A BD screen could cost 3K? Wow! I didn't think they would be that expensive!

A Vutec SilverStar would be an alternative to the Black Diamond. I think the "92 is around 1.5K.
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post #14 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 02:51 PM
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A Vutec SilverStar would be an alternative to the Black Diamond. I think the "92 is around 1.5K.

With a 12' viewing distance, I would go with a larger screen than 92". Depending on the amount of ambient light we are talking about, a Stewart FireHawk might be a good choice, especially since the quick ship screens are still on sale until the end of this month.

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post #15 of 15 Old 05-21-2012, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Seven segment wheels are typically RGBx2 (no YMC) and have a dark green segment. Not sure on the Mits though, just most 7 segment wheels use that combo. The RGBx2 is for doubling the color wheel speed. The color wheel spins at 3x with 2 RGB segments making it a 6x speed color wheel.

In my color adjustment menu, there are two screens. One is for RGB, and the other is for YMC. I just assumed that the color wheel had those colors. From experience, with that many combinations available, I can tell you that I'm glad there is a reset button. The only adjustment I kept was to turn down the green so that forests weren't so vivid.

What you are saying makes sense. I recall reading that there was a need to stop the wheel(s) from becoming supersonic.

The color is beautiful though. Better than LCDs and Plasmas that I have
seen. I'm sure price affects color quality on those sets though.

Floyd

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