Projectors at CEDIA Expo 2012 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 08:15 AM
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I would love to go to Cedia one day. Hopefully one day

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post #182 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post

I would love to go to Cedia one day. Hopefully one day

You should just take a trip out here Frank........its not far! tongue.gif I believe it is back here in Denver next year and if you happen by some crazy chance to make it one of the years it is here (is it going to be another 3 year Denver run, or just one?), you always have a place to stay. wink.gif We had an absolute blast the 3 years it was here. Not only is it fascinating seeing everything on display, but there are some great parties going on as well. cool.gif Lots of fun!

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post #183 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 08:33 AM
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Hey mark, how did the 3d look on the new jvc projectors? Ghosting?
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post #184 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Gleave View Post

I don't see this as a bad thing. If all projectors were demoed in this manor, you would, at the very least be able to compare black level and to some extent color saturation.

I totally agree that some are seeing the new models in an environment that is possibly much better than their own set up and seeing improved ANSI contrast and being wowed.

I usually demo projectors at the same place: It has a proper demo room with black side curtains, dark grey flooring and very dark walls and ceiling. At different times I've seen a HD1 (RS1), HD350(RS10) ,HD750(RS20) and the X7(RS50?) all in the same room. Even the HD1 looked to have plenty of ANSI contrast compared to another dealer I've gone to with very light walls and a glass side door eek.gif so the room isn't even properly dark let alone reflection free. Even an X90 would look poor in the second dealer's room I reckon...

I did some experiments a few years ago: My room as it stands has light walls and a white ceiling, plus a mid oak floor. I created a temporary set up of black cloth 'tent' and floor coverings, then measured the ANSI contrast (I had a JVC HD350/RS10 at the time). While absolute values can be misleading, the fact remains that I measured nearly three times as much ANSI contrast with all the temporary black cloth trimmings compared to the room 'as is'. FWIW it was 75:1 verses 220:1, so still some way short of what others had measured the RS10 at, but the important thing is the comparison of the room's effect. One of the reasons I got rid of my projector in the end was that I couldn't watch without putting up all the temporary cloths and it took so long that I got fed up of it. Without it my projector looked very average, with it up (and a Lumagen for calibration purposes) I found that the dealer demo of the X7(RS50) didn't make me think there was enough of an improvement (2D only) to justify the huge extra cost...I went home afterwards and didn't view mine as being drastically worse, until I took down all the temporary cloth trimmings...

Of course it's far more exciting to talk about the latest models and how much they've improved one thing or another. But having seen a HD350(RS10) in that dealer's very good room, I wonder if many owners of the newer models have ever really seen the true potential of their projectors? Don't even get me started on having a proper calibration: I've measured a major change in gamma on my HD350 after only 50 hours of a calibration: Comparing the recalibrated image to the drifted one literally looked like I'd replaced the projector. Therefore I'm not in the least surprised when an existing owner sees a newer model without all that drift and possibly in a much better room, thinks that the new models are 'hugely better'. I know it's not always possible (especially over in the USA) to take your existing projector along to a demo, or better yet have a home demo, but I think some of the differences might be smaller than some would like to think when compared on a level playing field.

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post #185 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

You should just take a trip out here Frank........its not far! tongue.gif I believe it is back here in Denver next year and if you happen by some crazy chance to make it one of the years it is here (is it going to be another 3 year Denver run, or just one?), you always have a place to stay. wink.gif We had an absolute blast the 3 years it was here. Not only is it fascinating seeing everything on display, but there are some great parties going on as well. cool.gif Lots of fun!

Thanks Todd smile.gif
I've heard at cedia you can spend a whole day and you still haven't seen everything cool.gif over here I remember going to a electronic show within 1/2 hour you saw everything. It was horrible I might as well have gone to the audio store.
I've heard many members catching up, going to dinner etc sounds like a blast. Hopefully one day I just have to convince the wife smile.gif

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post #186 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I totally agree that some are seeing the new models in an environment that is possibly much better than their own set up and seeing improved ANSI contrast and being wowed.
I usually demo projectors at the same place: It has a proper demo room with black side curtains, dark grey flooring and very dark walls and ceiling. At different times I've seen a HD1 (RS1), HD350(RS10) ,HD750(RS20) and the X7(RS50?) all in the same room. Even the HD1 looked to have plenty of ANSI contrast compared to another dealer I've gone to with very light walls and a glass side door eek.gif so the room isn't even properly dark let alone reflection free. Even an X90 would look poor in the second dealer's room I reckon...
I did some experiments a few years ago: My room as it stands has light walls and a white ceiling, plus a mid oak floor. I created a temporary set up of black cloth 'tent' and floor coverings, then measured the ANSI contrast (I had a JVC HD350/RS10 at the time). While absolute values can be misleading, the fact remains that I measured nearly three times as much ANSI contrast with all the temporary black cloth trimmings compared to the room 'as is'. FWIW it was 75:1 verses 220:1, so still some way short of what others had measured the RS10 at, but the important thing is the comparison of the room's effect. One of the reasons I got rid of my projector in the end was that I couldn't watch without putting up all the temporary cloths and it took so long that I got fed up of it. Without it my projector looked very average, with it up (and a Lumagen for calibration purposes) I found that the dealer demo of the X7(RS50) didn't make me think there was enough of an improvement (2D only) to justify the huge extra cost...I went home afterwards and didn't view mine as being drastically worse, until I took down all the temporary cloth trimmings...
Of course it's far more exciting to talk about the latest models and how much they've improved one thing or another. But having seen a HD350(RS10) in that dealer's very good room, I wonder if many owners of the newer models have ever really seen the true potential of their projectors? Don't even get me started on having a proper calibration: I've measured a major change in gamma on my HD350 after only 50 hours of a calibration: Comparing the recalibrated image to the drifted one literally looked like I'd replaced the projector. Therefore I'm not in the least surprised when an existing owner sees a newer model without all that drift and possibly in a much better room, thinks that the new models are 'hugely better'. I know it's not always possible (especially over in the USA) to take your existing projector along to a demo, or better yet have a home demo, but I think some of the differences might be smaller than some would like to think when compared on a level playing field.

I have the HD350 and my room turn the lights off you cannot even see your hand in front of your face. The pic looks great ( on the second globe ) so won't be upgrading until 4k hits the street at a reasonable price. Hopefully 2013/2014

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post #187 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I also read in another thread that even the new E-shift has some visible 'sheen' according to one poster that has seen the new models, this was someone who had the previous model and saw it on that, so I guess they have some real world experience of it.

That is the first time i've heard anyone claim something like that about e-shift. As an owner of the RS55, I'm not sure what they are referring to. I often switch e-shift on/off to keep re-affirming what I already know.. it makes a noticeable difference in PQ when it's on.

My setup could be the ideal environment for showing off the e-shift. I use a 142" 2.8 High Power screen and sit only 14 feet from the screen. Anyone with a sharp eye would immediately see the improvement if they were sitting next to me. The e-shift alone is what trumped the RS55 over the VW95 in my particular setup. The large HP affords being able to clamp the iris down to -11 for an excellent, dynamic 2D image with plenty of 'pop' (thanks to the brightness of the HP)

Some may want to judge the e-shift technique by reading bits and pieces of information. This is something you have to see in person, on a large screen with a close seating distance to appreciate. I was not a fan of my RS50 as many will remember, but the addition of the e-shift to the RS55 was a noticeable improvement in PQ (not to mention being brighter as well).

Ideally i'd like to see the RS55 and RS56 next to each other in my HT, both with a full calibration to see an A/B comparison of the 2 models. maybe that will be my next shootout thread. cool.gif


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post #188 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 10:37 AM
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Can you do that....like tomorrow biggrin.gif
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post #189 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Not me. My 45 stays put. Give me some changes I care about like less lag, significantly less ghosting and as close to zero flicker as possible and I am in. Eshift I could not care less about at my seating distance.

I'm with you. There may be some slight improvements but is it really worth selling a good projector (2D at least) for one that's slightly better for thousands of dollars? Years ago I would have said yes but once you train yourself to get of the the "upgraditis" mentality it's easier to think more clearly and logically. I'm very skeptical about the "pre-production" comments as well. It's only months away before these items hit the streets and it's rare given this time frame that the finished product will be that much different. The same thing was said about last years JVCs and from everything I've read JVCs 2D performance is very similar to last years models and the 3D might have even slightly went backwards. I'm looking at other manufacturers or will learn to be content with what I have (unless reliable sources say otherwise).
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post #190 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Ideally i'd like to see the RS55 and RS56 next to each other in my HT, both with a full calibration to see an A/B comparison of the 2 models. maybe that will be my next shootout thread. cool.gif

That's the kind of fair comparison that would give a worthwhile conclusion for the true improvements. Of course as you rightly say you need to see it in person. Likewise I haven't seen Eshift myself, so can only repeat what I've read (in another thread it seems?). There were some quite significant ANSI contrast figures quoted that would concern me if true, which also surprised me that I'd not read it before (and I do tend to read most threads on JVCs too). However, it will depend on the room the PJ is used in as the higher ANSI value would be lost in a room like mine. However, Rich H has a pretty well set up room so I'd imagine he'd get near optimum ANSI contrast and yet I've not heard him say anything against the Eshift, so it's by no means confirmed.

I had considered getting an Eshift model one day, with the intention of selling my Isco II lens and just using my Lumagen to 'shrink' for 16:9 menus and trailers, but for various reasons this is unlikely to happen anytime soon, but I still enjoy reading the threads. smile.gif

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post #191 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 12:34 PM
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Wait, has ANY PJ/lamp performed this good after 2000hrs? I mean, you lose 15% within the first 100 hrs (or so) with most PJ lamps.
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If true this is a major advancement and could have many of us reconsider not upgrading until anything but a solid state light source pj.
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I mentioned in the other thread how we hear about this great ANSI increase every year and it never amounts to squat. SOWK made the brilliant (I should have thought about this) observation that the rooms they demo some of these JVC projectors in are commonly COMPLETELY, and I mean COMPLETELY black holes. People are not seeing a projector which has increased ANSI to any significant degree most likely, but rather they are finally seeing the FULL potential (or MUCH closer to it anyway) of the ANSI that is there in a perfect room that is not practical for the VAST majority of us due to many reasons. Put this same new model in your existing room where your nice RS55 now sits and notice no ANSI increase I would bet the farm. They had this same BLACK HOLE type room at Cedia 6 years ago when they first unveiled the RS1 here in Denver and I believe the following 2 years as well. Smart move on JVCs part to showcase their projectors in PERFECT rooms, even though almost nobody has this in reality.

Interesting; that would explain why there haven't been complaints (that I've seen anyway) about eshift's ANSI CR hit.
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I have the HD350 and my room turn the lights off you cannot even see your hand in front of your face.

That indicates that you have controlled extraneous light sources, not necessarily that the room has nonreflective surfaces or gives good ANSI CR.

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post #192 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 02:06 PM
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Any new/improved native 2.35 projectors there or on the horizon?

One thing to consider is that a 4K resolution 16x9 machine would be able to produce a 2.35:1 image with greater-than-1080p resolution vertical image area. If you permanently blacked-out the top and bottom of the 16x9 frame you'd basically have a native 2.35:1 projector... but why sacrifice the added benefit of optimized resolution for 1.85 and 1.33 films if you don't need to? Even with a 2.35:1 constant-height screen? With saved presets on many of these new JVCs for instance, you could have a 2.35:1 constant-height screen and view all material with no added lens device and even your 2.35:1 films would have more-than-1080p vertical resolution (and full 4-K horizontal). Basically the projector would have a 2.35:1 preset, a 1.85:1/1.33:1 preset and from a viewing experience you'd have a "2.35:1 projector" producing constant-height images on your 2.35:1 screen (and every image would be greater-than-1080p vertical resolution and greater than 1920 horizontal).

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #193 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 02:17 PM
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That's true in theory David, but someone somewhere will worry about not using all their 4K pixels. biggrin.gif However, even as a lens user myself, I have a feeling that it's a path I would go down. Perhaps by the time 4K drops to my price range I'll have built up enough of a film stock pile to make it worth buying one, as I'm struggling right now...

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post #194 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

That's true in theory David, but someone somewhere will worry about not using all their 4K pixels. biggrin.gif However, even as a lens user myself, I have a feeling that it's a path I would go down. Perhaps by the time 4K drops to my price range I'll have built up enough of a film stock pile to make it worth buying one, as I'm struggling right now...

Agreed that there's something "oh so right" feeling about using *all* your pixels for one's prized 2.35:1 content. And an anamorphic lens (or native 2.35:1 panel) does mean that all of the brightness coming off your PJ's panels is finding its way to your screen. But assuming you have "brightness to spare" as may be the case with some of these new PJs, and assuming you have enough pixels to avoid any visible pixel structure or stair-stepping artifacts, the real-world outcome of a zoomed 16x9 4K image versus native 2.35:1 might not be any different once we have high-brightness 4K machines. Of course all of that assumes an approximate 1.5 viewing distance... sitting closer may make "full pixel" 2.35 still have a visible advantage. Time will tell. smile.gif

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #195 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I mentioned in the other thread how we hear about this great ANSI increase every year and it never amounts to squat. SOWK made the brilliant (I should have thought about this) observation that the rooms they demo some of these JVC projectors in are commonly COMPLETELY, and I mean COMPLETELY black holes. People are not seeing a projector which has increased ANSI to any significant degree most likely, but rather they are finally seeing the FULL potential (or MUCH closer to it anyway) of the ANSI that is there in a perfect room that is not practical for the VAST majority of us due to many reasons. Put this same new model in your existing room where your nice RS55 now sits and notice no ANSI increase I would bet the farm. They had this same BLACK HOLE type room at Cedia 6 years ago when they first unveiled the RS1 here in Denver and I believe the following 2 years as well. Smart move on JVCs part to showcase their projectors in PERFECT rooms, even though almost nobody has this in reality.

The JVC rooms are the same this year as they were last year. The walls, floor and ceiling is black, but they are far from black holes, because the whole back of the room is open. There is not even a curtain. Don't get me wrong, the rooms are pretty dark, but having an 8' x 20' opening in the back of the room does let in a fair amount of ambient light. The rooms do not get as dark as my own room.

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post #196 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 03:45 PM
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The seperate demo fo the X95 was completely light-controlled and it should be mentioned that the X55 and X75 were on Black Diamond screens in the room that had the curtain open at the back

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post #197 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 04:44 PM
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Thanks Mike/Daniel for the info. Sounds like there are too many variables to determine anything. We need someone to get one for a side by side with this years model in the same room, same screen etc.....to determine anything it seems.

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post #198 of 384 Old 09-08-2012, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Owen View Post

The device in the light path that does the wobulation for "EShift" degrades ANSI contrast so JVC have simply managed to reclaiming some of the ANSI contrast lost when EShift was introduced. ANSI would no doubt be better again if EShift was removed completely.
I can understand why JVC feel the need to do sudo 4k but its a compromise solution that does not suit everyone. I would prefer a genuine 4k projector with 4k input or the best no compromise 2k projector possible.
I am fascinated by the concern over 3D performance, I find 3D a contrived and artificial "effect" that degrades my viewing experience and I want nothing at all to do with it or the titles that use it, I guess my age is showing. biggrin.gif

It's called a RS35 and that is why it continues to have residence in my HT. wink.gif

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post #199 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 01:18 AM
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Hmm, not sure about any great increases in ANSI with the latest JVCs. Great depth and perhaps the ANSI numbers are higher but they still look like DILA projectors, i.e. not much in the way of 'pop'. I haven't seen the previous gen eshift but was pretty impressed with the technology, it looked noticeably sharper to me when they switched it on.

E-Shift cannot make the image sharper, if anything it will soften the image. Any visible difference in sharpness is due to artificial sharpening in the video processing, you can get a much sharper image with any projector with cleaver video processing and without E-Shift but JVC dont want you to know that. Applying extra sharpening when E-Shift is enabled is just a cleaver marketing trick, unless the viewing angle is large enough for the pixel structure of a normal 2k JVC projector to be a problem E-Shift is not needed and is potentially a backwards step.

The normal "Sharpness" control used in projectors is not the answer, cranking it up results in a nasty image. You need a system that lifts mid range MTF without edge enhancement or unsharp mask type processing, both of which look ugly IMHO.
The only way I am aware of to achieve the result I am talking about is with a PC running FFDShow upscale processing.
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post #200 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 04:39 AM
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I had a chance on the last day of CETA to test the disk "A Turtles Tale, Sammys Adventure" on the new JVC and Mits new HC 8000D in 3d. I do think that the JVC's have somewhat improved ghosting. I watched about 5 minutes of the film and only noticed slight ghosting on the trees at the start of the film. You really had to look for it. This film is a real torture test to check for ghosting. They claim a 330.000x1 contrast ratio.vs 160.000x1 for the 7900 their other new machine.

I also visited the Mits booth very early in the morning and conviced them to test the new 8000 with the same film and their new glasses. The 8000 is a DLP projector with a MSRP of about $3000. It will be released in about a month. Since it was early the staff was able to close the curtains so it would look better. The 3D on this projector looked really bright with not a hint of ghosting. In fact it was the best 3D that I saw at the show on reasonable priced units. The Mits people claimed that the 8000 with work with their new glasses alsong with compatable glasses such as Xpand. They claim that their new glasses only have a 25% light loss for 3D. That being said there was no way to meaure this. I can say that the picture was bright and looked great with their new glasses. They ware also very light and comfortable. It would be nice to check this projector out once it is released. I would love to see how it looks with a good 2D source. It might be an interesting alternative to the BenQ 7000 and another good choice for those who want a projector with great 3d.
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post #201 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 05:07 AM
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It's called a RS35 and that is why it continues to have residence in my HT. wink.gif
Me too smile.gif Reason I just bought a used (w/ Jeff Meier calibration and only 400 hours on the original bulb) RS35 vs buying a newer machine.
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post #202 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 05:09 AM
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Me too smile.gif Reason I just bought a used (w/ Jeff Meier calibration and only 400 hours on the original bulb) RS35 vs buying a newer machine.

Not a bad way to go at all. I loved mine! smile.gif

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post #203 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 05:24 AM
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Not a bad way to go at all. I loved mine! smile.gif
I remember smile.gif I needed something quick and easy to replace my ailing RS20 - and this seemed to be the best choice (I don't need 3-D at this time).
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post #204 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 11:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

You should just take a trip out here Frank........its not far! tongue.gif I believe it is back here in Denver next year and if you happen by some crazy chance to make it one of the years it is here (is it going to be another 3 year Denver run, or just one?), you always have a place to stay. wink.gif We had an absolute blast the 3 years it was here. Not only is it fascinating seeing everything on display, but there are some great parties going on as well. cool.gif Lots of fun!

It's in Denver for the next three years. Rocky Mountain high, Colorado. smile.gif
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post #205 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

It's in Denver for the next three years. Rocky Mountain high, Colorado. smile.gif

Three more years in Denver.......NICE! cool.gif Looking forward to it! Will be really cool to actually meet you and others who I have talked with on here over the years as well!

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post #206 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

It's in Denver for the next three years. Rocky Mountain high, Colorado. smile.gif

Great.rolleyes.gif I didn't make it this year, but will try next year. I doubt I will try to make it all three years. I can see two years, but I don't understand three.

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post #207 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 01:17 PM
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YES! Let's start gearing up for Denver! Be here before you know it! Start a CEDIA 2013 anticipation thread smile.gif
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post #208 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

The 3D on this projector looked really bright with not a hint of ghosting. In fact it was the best 3D that I saw at the show on reasonable priced units. The Mits people claimed that the 8000 with work with their new glasses alsong with compatable glasses such as Xpand. They claim that their new glasses only have a 25% light loss for 3D.

If true, this is a nice improvement. Isn't the light loss due to the glasses usually around 70%?
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post #209 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gradius2 View Post

So there is no real change from e-Shift ?
I'm also wondering about HW50.

Yes. there is a big improvement in eshift2 over last year's eshift. The is much more analysis of the source frame and much more data crunching to arrive at the two frames sequentially flashed. The 3D has been substantially improved and is quite watcheable.The new glasses are also more efficient, perhaps letting through about 20% more light. That means your eyes would interpret that change alone as about 4.5% brighter.
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post #210 of 384 Old 09-09-2012, 02:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Anything new from BenQ 3D?


BenQ never shows at Cedia. And BenQ as I understand is not really a projector manufacturer but I could be wrong. From what I hear, they are use a well known Chinese house to manufacturer let's call it their design but I think it's really a house platform customized perhaps jointly with certain customization exclusive to BenQ and noone else.. Another manufacturer I think uses basically the same design but with certaon of its own customizations.
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