SONY VPL-HW50ES unveiled at IFA in september 2012 - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 149 Old 09-26-2012, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

We were told at the show, that the lens in the HW50ES and the HW30ES are the same. I am working to get confirmation. I can state as a fact, that the HW50ES and VW95ES do not share the same lens. Part of what you are paying for with a VW95ES is higher quality optics, not that the HW50 optics are bad, just that the VW95ES is built to a higher standard and therefore costs more.

I remember my side by side and the 95 lens was full screen sharpness whereas the 30's seemed to concentrate more on the middle of the screen. Hopefully the 50 with Reality Creation it might help improve that. All due respect to Rob at Sony but since they are not releasing a 95 replacement this fall they are betting the house on the 50. I am not saying it won't come close in overall performance but I highly doubt it would actually be better than the 95. I guess we will know soon enough. smile.gif

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post #122 of 149 Old 09-26-2012, 09:53 AM
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So again I am curious if the 50 is using a different bulb. The 95 and 30 use the same one, but the 50 is spec'd 20% brighter.

The 95 and 30 are decent units. This is typical 'oooh look at how good the new specs are compared to the last model' here.

I would highly doubt that the 50 is that much better than the 30 except for some needed brightness in 3D which the 30 and 95 addressed last year compared to the 90.

The 30 no longer includes the 3D hardware and the 50 is using the same glasses that have been shipping with the 30 and 95. Personally with my setup using an IR repeater system I much prefer having the ability to choose where to put the blaster for the 3D.

Okay the optical block may have been reworked some but again I just don't see this unit being a huge step up.

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post #123 of 149 Old 09-26-2012, 11:28 AM
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i have checked on sonys site, and the bulb (if i remember correctly) was an LMP-H20. The VW95 and HW30 use the LMP-H202.
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post #124 of 149 Old 09-26-2012, 02:34 PM
 
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The reason why I'm a bit excited about the 50ES is largely do to this interview from Italy:

"First of all, the development of new HW50 was managed directly by the father of the 4k model. Matsuda who revolutionized the field of high-end video projection, putting across all competitors. Matsuda has completely redesigned the optics that allows now a detail and a much higher luminous efficiency. The luminous flux now rises to ben 1,700 lumens while in calibration (6,500° kelvin) the luminous flux in lumen 1,195 remains .

The change of the objective, although manual type, was a logical choice to be able to take full advantage of the new DSP X-Reality Pro that promises to give a detail never seen before full HD images. The processor is derived directly from that posted in the VPL-VW1000ES, is similar to what is included in top-of-the-line LCD TV Sony (HX855, HX955) and has been optimized for video projection. Unfortunately the new HW50 here at IFA is off."

The Sony 1000 is the best front projector and the Sony LCD flat panels are rated among the best. Now we read the 50ES leverages off these technologies and Sony's most talented designer "completely redesigned" the optics from the 30ES.
Since I repeatedly criticized the lack of resolution in the 30ES, its only fitting that i now be rather excited about the 50ES.

then Art reports the direct comparison with the JVC:
"Sony did a great job of demoing it. I’ll try to write later (from memory) about how it looked compared to last year’s top of the line $12,000 JVC… Let’s just say dealers in the demo room were almost stunned that the HW50ES could in terms of picture quality, take on the JVC and not be embarrassed. "

I realize that dealers and manufactures frown upon these types of direct comparisons, but we consumers luv'em.
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post #125 of 149 Old 09-26-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

So again I am curious if the 50 is using a different bulb. The 95 and 30 use the same one, but the 50 is spec'd 20% brighter.
The 95 and 30 are decent units. This is typical 'oooh look at how good the new specs are compared to the last model' here.
I would highly doubt that the 50 is that much better than the 30 except for some needed brightness in 3D which the 30 and 95 addressed last year compared to the 90.
The 30 no longer includes the 3D hardware and the 50 is using the same glasses that have been shipping with the 30 and 95. Personally with my setup using an IR repeater system I much prefer having the ability to choose where to put the blaster for the 3D.
Okay the optical block may have been reworked some but again I just don't see this unit being a huge step up.

What are you basing the 50 not being a big step up on? All news and first looks have been very positive results and projector reviews stated it's big step up from the 30. You or I haven't seen it so our thoughts are meaningless at this point. Could it be hype? Sure. Projector Reviews review is due up anytime so hopefully that will provide some good info.
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post #126 of 149 Old 09-26-2012, 08:57 PM
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"The change of the objective, although manual type, was a logical choice to be able to take full advantage of the new DSP X-Reality Pro that promises to give a detail never seen before full HD images."

If that translation is correct, wouldn't it imply a new lens ('objective')?
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post #127 of 149 Old 09-27-2012, 01:03 PM
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yeah. The word objective means lens in many languages. Heres hoping it is "new".
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post #128 of 149 Old 09-27-2012, 07:29 PM
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Review is up:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/hw50es/index.php

Art has said that
Quote:
Serving up our Hot Product Award for the VPL-HW50ES

I didn't even have to ponder whether this Sony VPL-HW50ES would receive a Hot Product Award. From what I knew going in (price, features, CEDIA demo), it seemed like it was obvious. An hour of viewing in my theater confirmed it.
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I mentioned a year ago, with the HW30ES that while I tend to find that I really like Sony projectors, I have yet to own one. I can start my summary of the VPL-HW50ES by saying that if I was shopping for a sub $5000 projector for my theater at this time, I believe it would be my top choice. True, I have the updated Epsons coming in, and then this year's minor improvements to the lowest cost JVC, but based on what I know about those projectors predecessors, this Sony may very well be the pick of the litter even against those companies' newer projectors. We shall see.

Here was his comments on black levels which is somewhat confusing:
Quote:
This Sony is definitely right up there challenging last year's sub-$5000 champ, the Epson 5010/6010 in terms of blacks. I did a good deal of side by side viewing of dark scenes. Both home theater projectors use dynamic irises (as do almost all), for deeper blacks, and are the two best around.

While viewing the two, they were very comparable. On some types of scenes the Sony had the edge, on others the Epson. First time in years anything this affordable could take on the Epson. JVC's got their RS46 / X35 coming out in a few months, they manage to do really good blacks without an iris - they actually have more dynamic range, but can't actually get blacks as dark as the Sony.

I though the JVCs had the darkest black levels. confused.gif
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post #129 of 149 Old 09-27-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Review is up:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/hw50es/index.php
Art has said that
I don't have time to pull the details out now but he stated that he doesn't expect any of the other projectors such as the Epson 5020/6020 or the JVC-RS46 to outperform it. Here was his comments on black levels which is somewhat confusing:
I though the JVCs had the darkest black levels. confused.gif

Kind of a conflict with this statement in Art's review of the RS45:

"With the RS45, even on the darkest scenes, our side by side viewing with the Epson showed that at its best the Epson could barely match the JVC and on most scenes, the JVC RS45 offers a slight, but distinct advantage."

What he means, on a scene where it is mostly dark, the Epson can just about keep up. This is because on a mostly dark scene the iris can close down all the way. On scenes with light and dark (which is much of the time in a movie) the iris can't close down as much, so the Epson can't keep up.

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post #130 of 149 Old 09-27-2012, 07:58 PM
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He also mentions this:
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Pretty impressive! When it comes to blacks without spending a whole lot more (thousands), nothing seems to be better - the new Epson is probably about comparable. One could argue that the JVC X35 gets impressive blacks without a dynamic iris, (and with more dynamic range), but last year's X30 - RS45, just couldn't put up blacks as black as the best projectors with irises.

So should we assume that the projectors like the Epson and the new HW50 actually have similar black levels on very dark scenes as the JVC does? And that the JVC does better black levels on darker images (yet still lit up areas on screen). Perhaps something like a space scene and such? I'll probably never get to actually do a good comparison unless I bring a projector home. Especially since having an HP screen will changes things up a little.
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post #131 of 149 Old 09-27-2012, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

He also mentions this:
So should we assume that the projectors like the Epson and the new HW50 actually have similar black levels on very dark scenes as the JVC does? And that the JVC does better black levels on darker images (yet still lit up areas on screen). Perhaps something like a space scene and such? I'll probably never get to actually do a good comparison unless I bring a projector home. Especially since having an HP screen will changes things up a little.

On a fade to black the dynamic iris can achieve good blacks. Throw a black car or any dark object into a daytime scene and see what it does. With a dynamic iris, you can'r have your cake and eat it to. So when the iris is making the darks darker, it is also doing the same to the light colors.

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post #132 of 149 Old 09-27-2012, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

On a fade to black the dynamic iris can achieve good blacks. Throw a black car or any dark object into a daytime scene and see what it does. With a dynamic iris, you can'r have your cake and eat it to. So when the iris is making the darks darker, it is also doing the same to the light colors.

That makes sense but doesn't some of this vary by scene? Many reviews I've read say that in many bright scenes that even the Panasonic projectors are comparable and even better in some cases than the JVCs. I thought the darker scenes were where the JVCs really stood head and shoulders above the rest. Sigh. If only a local dealer had demos setup to make comparisons. The only JVC dealer with demos is about 30 miles away but they only sell JVC, Sim2, and Mitsubishi.
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post #133 of 149 Old 09-27-2012, 11:09 PM
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Wow, sounds great.

Surprised to hear how bright it is in 3D, and the processing sounds fantastic. I wonder how a darbee used in conjunction with Sonys reality engine would look. Better then real 4k:eek: LOL.

The thing is that the darbee is most likely "enhancing" the image in a different way then what Sony is doing so hopefully they complement each other.

Looks like this will most likely be my next projector, and hearing from the other forum that the reviewer perfered the 50 to 95 says a lot. Due to the Sonys higher ANSI contrast, it should "pop" nicely in brighter scenes when compared to the JVC. (I read a few years ago when they measured the ANSI of the VW90= around 450:1 and RS50 around 200)
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post #134 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

That makes sense but doesn't some of this vary by scene? Many reviews I've read say that in many bright scenes that even the Panasonic projectors are comparable and even better in some cases than the JVCs. I thought the darker scenes were where the JVCs really stood head and shoulders above the rest. Sigh. If only a local dealer had demos setup to make comparisons. The only JVC dealer with demos is about 30 miles away but they only sell JVC, Sim2, and Mitsubishi.

I've owned some of these projectors (well I only had a Sony vw70 which was 10,000:1 on/off native, same contrast as hw30). I also had the 8500ub, friend had 8700ub and now 5010, and now I have the RS-45.

The JVC does do darker blacks unless you put certain projectors in Dynamic Mode or non-Rec 709 modes, then the only time the other projectors will do darker blacks is if you wait 3+ seconds after there is nothing on the screen, or in very rare cases when a scene is just really really dark for 2+ seconds. When there are complete black fadeouts in movie previews, much of the time the JVC is darker even on the Fade Out/Fade In because the IRIS's are not fast enough to bounce the difference out. There is one other exception, the actual blacks can also get close to JVC sometimes when the brightest spots in the image are fairly dark but the overall scene is very dark (and this does happen in movies, but it's not super common and it usually only happens for a brief period of time). Often IRIS's ironically do better in poorly mastered GAMMA where the scene is too dark.

As far as black levels being the reason to choose the JVC over Sony, it's a so-so argument (matters more for some than others). The Sony's blacks aren't bad, I would choose the Sony if the optics can match the JVC, the 3D is improved, and all that, unless someone is purely focused on black levels. There are going to be movies the JVC will still win at (like Harry Potter), but the Sony will still do pretty good at Harry Potter like movies compared to most projectors.


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post #135 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 06:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Wow, sounds great.
Surprised to hear how bright it is in 3D, and the processing sounds fantastic. I wonder how a darbee used in conjunction with Sonys reality engine would look. Better then real 4k:eek: LOL.
The thing is that the darbee is most likely "enhancing" the image in a different way then what Sony is doing so hopefully they complement each other.
Looks like this will most likely be my next projector, and hearing from the other forum that the reviewer perfered the 50 to 95 says a lot. Due to the Sonys higher ANSI contrast, it should "pop" nicely in brighter scenes when compared to the JVC. (I read a few years ago when they measured the ANSI of the VW90= around 450:1 and RS50 around 200)
The more processing stages the higher the probability of degrading the image, especially given the limited 8 bit depth. Sony uses extra bits in its internal processing to lessen the chances of evil banding (rough gradations).

In this instance Art's review pictures do justice to show the effects of Reality Creation. Twenty is as far as i would normally go too:

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post #136 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 07:16 AM
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this looks similar to the darbee processing. When the HW50 is released, i'll show close ups of the RC vs. Darbee + no RC and finally both technologies combined.
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post #137 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 07:53 AM
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Yes, it is very Darbee-like. It seems Panasonic is doing something similar as well with its Detail Clarity Processor 4.

http://panasonic.net/avc/projector/products/ae8000/features2.html
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post #138 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 09:19 AM
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The operational problem with using the RC is it is a two axis control in the Sony. Let's call the vertical axis detail and the horizontal axis noise filtering. One can not say I use 20 or 32 without saying what noise level setting in RC is being used. and the level of noise filtering in relation to the detail setting is critical. I suggest putting up on off pixel patterns, both vertical ones and horizontal ones and see what I mean. One click more of or change in the noise setting can cause blotchiness big tome and banding. One my 1000ES I just go with the RC factory presets for each of the various modes. Pretty much they are spot on when tested against my suggested test patterns. The darbee is a one axis control and further improves the picture on the 1000ES making it look a tad sharper.

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post #139 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 09:42 AM
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I couldn't find anything in Art's review about the Sony's DI being active in 3D mode. I know it isn't with the 30 and 95. That's a feature I want. Hopefully Sony has added this.
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post #140 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

The more processing stages the higher the probability of degrading the image, especially given the limited 8 bit depth. Sony uses extra bits in its internal processing to lessen the chances of evil banding (rough gradations).
In this instance Art's review pictures do justice to show the effects of Reality Creation. Twenty is as far as i would normally go too:


This looks good, but if you look at the space to the left of Craig's head, the background noise is amplified with RC turned on. Not much, but it's there.

More importantly, though, it seems the trade-off is acceptable: Craig's face is sharpened much more than the background in this particular example.

I finally gave the Darbee a try the other night for just 5-10 minutes or so. I'm generally not a fan of too much processing; however, I did like the fact that it created depth effects & when applied subtly, didn't cause too many artifacts. I.e. smooth regions did not have any amplified noise.

The depth effect is hard to describe... it wasn't 3D, but you could tell which objects had depth to them. Not in every scene, but in certain ones.

I didn't like turning it up too high b/c in certain scenes, it acted too much like a large radius unsharp mask (like Clarity in Lightroom).

Also, in some scenes it simply seemed to act like a slight MTF enhancer... e.g. what you might regain from lost sharpness due to decreased contrast from a bad lens, etc.

Anyway, I'll be curious to see how the Darbee works with RC when I get my 50ES.
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post #141 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 11:17 AM
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Woohoo. Mark is back !!
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Assuming the RC in the 50 is the same as in the 1000 except operating on a HD resolution instead of a 4HD or 4K resolution, the darbee should have the same effect positive or greater effect on the PQ. I find the effect to be less noticeable on 4HD or 4K picture than on a HD picture on a 1080p projector. i would guess the Darbee on a 1080p projector has about an 8% improvement while on the 1000ES about a 3% improvement. This is while using the Darblet while using the RC on the 1000ES.

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post #143 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 01:13 PM
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Woohoo. Mark is back !!


Thanks much. I was down in Florida house shopping and when I got back late Sunday night, my large dog developed bloat (twisted stumach) about two hours later. This will kill the dog in about 5 hours if not immediately operated on and the sooner the better for less complications. I rushed the dog to a very very good local emergency vet service with all Drs etc board certified and the same equipment that a good hospital has. A surgeon was called in and within 30 minutes of my arrival, the dog was operated on and then there was 2 days of intensive care. I was up all Sunday night there and then spent about 8 hours on Monday and Tuesday there. The dog is home and is doing fine. Back to her normal self. Only cost me $6200. She will be out of all danger in about 10 more days and I am with her constantly.

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post #144 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

this looks similar to the darbee processing. When the HW50 is released, i'll show close ups of the RC vs. Darbee + no RC and finally both technologies combined.

When I saw the RC on the Sony 4K, it reminded me of the JVC's enhancement detail.
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post #145 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 08:10 PM
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this looks similar to the darbee processing. When the HW50 is released, i'll show close ups of the RC vs. Darbee + no RC and finally both technologies combined.

Where are you getting your projector from Zombie? Are you on the AVS pre-order?

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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I couldn't find anything in Art's review about the Sony's DI being active in 3D mode. I know it isn't with the 30 and 95. That's a feature I want. Hopefully Sony has added this.

I looked for this as well. i went back and searched for mention of this on his HW50AES review and he never mentioned it. Maybe he didn't notice???
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post #146 of 149 Old 09-28-2012, 08:56 PM
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Where are you getting your projector from Zombie? Are you on the AVS pre-order?

The HW50 is the first projector for V2 of the AVS mini-shootout. I believe it's still a few weeks away from being available, we are waiting to hear more info from Sony.

The HW30 had some nice features, I'm looking forward to seeing this updated model.
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post #147 of 149 Old 10-01-2012, 08:11 AM
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It's too bad the Projectorreviews.com review didn't mention 3D performance with TnB and SbS 3D. This very important to me and I'm sure others. Is there going to be an AVS pre-order for this projector?
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post #148 of 149 Old 10-01-2012, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

It's too bad the Projectorreviews.com review didn't mention 3D performance with TnB and SbS 3D. This very important to me and I'm sure others. Is there going to be an AVS pre-order for this projector?

check with Mike @ AVS for pricing.

Most of the professional reviews have primarily subjective information on 3D performance. When the HW50 arrives, we'll do a deep dive again on how it performs this year against the current and upcoming models.
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post #149 of 149 Old 10-01-2012, 08:55 AM
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Computer guys are sloppy giving emails without the dot and what's after the dot. smile.gif You can contact Mike at mike@avscience.com or better yet, give him a call if you want all the details of a preorder and then if you are happy happy as I am sure you will be, Mike's a great guy, want to place a preorder.

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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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