Please Help JVC RS45 vs 6010 Please elaborate on calibrated lumens - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello everybody, I have come down to these two and have poured over hundreds of threads. There is one concept that I don't quite understand and may be the deciding factor--calibrated lumens in normal viewing mode. Everybody says that the Epson is the brighter projector, but the JVC has more calibrated lumens--what is the practical application of that?

I am building a dedicated HT room which is 14 x 15 (after I carve out an area for Def Tech speakers). I am planning on using a Seymour XD and build a 130" screen 16:9 format on a Jamestown frame (actually, if anybody can give me advice on this, it would be great--optimal mounting distance, etc.). I don't have to do an AT screen and if I didn't, I would have 14x17, but from what I read, AT screens are pretty neat.

The room is light controlled. I figure I will be watching 80% 2D movies, 15% TV sports and very little 3D--Just not a big fan.

Which projector would you recommend? Would the JVC be brighter in 2D Normal mode for this viewing because of the calibrated lumens than the Epson? I heard the blacks were marginally deeper in the JVC. I also read that the JVC is sharper, however the bulb may become an issue due to premature burning.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I am looking for a light controlled 2d viewing experience that would be like WOW!

Thanks,

Joe
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post #2 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechuan View Post

Hello everybody, I have come down to these two and have poured over hundreds of threads. There is one concept that I don't quite understand and may be the deciding factor--calibrated lumens in normal viewing mode. Everybody says that the Epson is the brighter projector, but the JVC has more calibrated lumens--what is the practical application of that?
I am building a dedicated HT room which is 14 x 15 (after I carve out an area for Def Tech speakers). I am planning on using a Seymour XD and build a 130" screen 16:9 format on a Jamestown frame (actually, if anybody can give me advice on this, it would be great--optimal mounting distance, etc.). I don't have to do an AT screen and if I didn't, I would have 14x17, but from what I read, AT screens are pretty neat.
The room is light controlled. I figure I will be watching 80% 2D movies, 15% TV sports and very little 3D--Just not a big fan.
Which projector would you recommend? Would the JVC be brighter in 2D Normal mode for this viewing because of the calibrated lumens than the Epson? I heard the blacks were marginally deeper in the JVC. I also read that the JVC is sharper, however the bulb may become an issue due to premature burning.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I am looking for a light controlled 2d viewing experience that would be like WOW!
Thanks,
Joe

I suggest you read the reviews of the two projectors on projectorreviews.com
in full calibrated best 2D mode the RS45 has more lumens. however the Epson has some fairly accurate, but not best, modes where it is brighter and can put out a much brighter image in 3D mode. also note the JVC RS45 does not have CMS so it's colors cannot be fully calibrated unless you purchase an external processor. Finally the Epson has substantially lower 3D crosstalk/ghosting. On the plus side for the JVC is its better native contrast ratio and lower black levels.

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post #3 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Ron,

Thanks for the reply. I have read the reviews and being new to projectors (this is my first) I would like to know what a fully calibrated best mode means in the real world. I know that for 3D the epson has a much brighter picture, but for 2D, controlled environment viewing does that mean the JVC has a brighter picture with deeper blacks (that would be more contract, correct?). If I'm not a critical viewer, is CMS calibration that important?

Joe
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post #4 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechuan View Post

Hello everybody, I have come down to these two and have poured over hundreds of threads.

The room is light controlled. I figure I will be watching 80% 2D movies, 15% TV sports and very little 3D--Just not a big fan.
Which projector would you recommend? Would the JVC be brighter in 2D Normal mode for this viewing because of the calibrated lumens than the Epson? I heard the blacks were marginally deeper in the JVC. I also read that the JVC is sharper, however the bulb may become an issue due to premature burning.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I am looking for a light controlled 2d viewing experience that would be like WOW!
Thanks,
Joe

I own an RS40 (very similar to RS45) and Epson 6010. IMHO, if you only care about 2D viewing, the JVC is the better PJ due to the better native CR/blacks without the use of a Dynamic Iris. The RS40 has powered zoom/focus. The Epson's are manual, but that's usually a set and forget thing for most unless you're looking to do CIH via zoom. The newer RS45 model has lens memory for that, the RS40's did not. The Epson has good blacks but it does use a DI so there is some pumping noticeable between total black scenes and then white credits. I can live with it because the 3D is much better than the JVC. I was planning on using both, but after getting the Epson in my HT, my RS40 with extra new lamp, emitter, and 2 glasses is up on Videogon.com for a steal.

Also, if you don't need the Anamorphic modes, THX, mount, extra bulb, black PJ, and additional year of warranty, the 5010 is cheaper.

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post #5 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechuan View Post

Ron,
Thanks for the reply. I have read the reviews and being new to projectors (this is my first) I would like to know what a fully calibrated best mode means in the real world. I know that for 3D the epson has a much brighter picture, but for 2D, controlled environment viewing does that mean the JVC has a brighter picture with deeper blacks (that would be more contract, correct?). If I'm not a critical viewer, is CMS calibration that important?
Joe

The Epson's are clearly brighter, even calibrated. The JVCs have better blacks/native contrast. If you watch a lot of darker movies like SciFi/Horror, you'll appreciate the blacks of the JVC more than the Epson, but the Epson's are still very good. The JVCs have a better black "floor". Not sure where you heard that the JVC have more brightness in 2D after calibration. I don't believe that to be true. Also keep in mind that the RS40/45s do NOT have a built in CMS. They're fairly close to 709 in certain mode (can't remember what it's called), but you can only dial in grayscale. JVCs are also known for some gamma drift, so that means more frequent calibrations. Not a show stopper by any stretch, just something to factor in. Same for no CMS. It's important, but really grayscale is more so IMHO.

Also, keep in mind that the JVCs do support 3D with optional emitter and glasses. However, the Espons are much better at 3D with less ghosting, no flicker that I can see, and much needed brightness (which IMHO is critical to really enjoyable 3D). I know that you said you're not a big fan, but if you've seen a movie like Avatar, Hugo, or IMAX Under the Sea in 3D on an Epson, you might just change your mind. biggrin.gif I'm really looking forward to Prometheus on Oct. 9th in glorious 3D in my theater. Some 3D movies filmed natively are meant to be seen that way. Just like watching a movie in OAR, it's the way it was intended to be viewed. More and more really good 3D movies available to watch, so I just had to have a great 3D projector that does 2D well enough. That means an Epson at my price point. But only you can decide what's right for you. I hope this all helps. smile.gif

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post #6 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechuan View Post

Hello everybody, I have come down to these two and have poured over hundreds of threads. There is one concept that I don't quite understand and may be the deciding factor--calibrated lumens in normal viewing mode. Everybody says that the Epson is the brighter projector, but the JVC has more calibrated lumens--what is the practical application of that?

I can't comment on the projectors, but I can comment on what that "means".

If you really back this up an oversimplify it, projection lamps have an abundance of Blue and Green, and generally a deficit of red, the ratio of these three colors determines the "color temperature". "Out of the box" projectors are generally far too blue, and need to have blue and green reduced to match the red capabilities of the projector. At a high level, you can think of "calibrated" to mean red, blue and green are brought into their proper relationship to make white, which usually means reducing blue and green, and thus reducing overall brightness. For business projectors, this doesn't really matter so they generally come setup for max brightness regardless of color temperature, where as for home theater you want them to be precisely calibrated to the standards (otherwise people can look sunburned for example) To continue my overgeneralization, projectors with more of a business projector heritage tend to have modes built in that have very high color temperatures that they've inherited from their business brethren. While projectors with out the business influence tend to come closer.

Essentially, projectors "out of the box" are varying degrees from "calibrated". So to answer your question about what the practical application of "calibrated lumens" is, well, essentially it's the only brightness number you should care about. The "ANSI Lumens" spec on the projector is meaningless, it's basically the brightest the projector can go regardless of color temperature/image quality. For one projector, say a business projector, that number might be with a white that looks very blue, where as with another projector, for example my Planar 8150, it could be essentially a calibrated value.

Basically "calibrated lumens" is the only apples to apples comparison of brightness. Or to put it simply if we assume an Epson 6010 produces fewer "calibrated lumsns" than a JVC RS45, then when you get the projector home and set it up to produce the best picture for your home theater, the JVC will be brighter (I don't know if that's accurate or not, I'm just going on the statement in the OP).

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #7 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 03:29 PM
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I've seen them both side by side in a dedicated/closed home theater room at a Magnolia HiFi near me, narrowed down the field to the same two projectors you're considering, spent hours with them on multiple visits with various material (DirecTV HDTV, BluRay, 3D BluRay, live action, animation, very dark movies) and they let us tweak the settings to our liking on both projectors. I thought the 2D brightness was similar between the 6010 and the RS45 but these were brand new projectors; as lamps dim (JVC has a history of premature lamp dimming, not sure if still issue with RS45) that can change. The JVC lamps cost a lot more than the Epson lamps do too. I played BluRays such as Underworld which is a very dark movie and was very impressed with both projectors on this title, very good shadow detail yet blacks were very good on both (with DI on ofcourse on the 6010). I ended up buying the 6010, have had it for about 6 months and lamp is still very, very bright and we use it as our sole TV so it gets a lot of action. This is my fifth projector and it just rocks. Like others have said its 3D is very, very good. I don't have a high gain screen and the 6010 still has a lot of brightness pumping out of it and not even worth mentioning ghosting on it and I've tried some tough 3D titles like Sammy's Adventure. Best projector I've owned by a mile.
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post #8 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 05:40 PM
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Per Art:

Epson 5010, best image mode high lamp, mid zoom, 630 lumens: http://www.projectorreviews.com/epson/home-cinema-5010/performance.php#bright

JVC RS45, best image mode, high lamp, mid zoom, 892 lumens: http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-rs45/performance.php#bright

If you are looking at 2D best image mode, they have been compared by the same person, in the same room, on the same screen. if you are looking for the brightest projector, the Epson wins, but not in best image mode.

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post #9 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 06:53 PM
 
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We install both and I'm the calibrator. You have to pick your priorities. If I was going to pick one projector for all purposes it would be the Epson for its versatility. It has brighter modes for ambient light use, good 2D and 3D, bulbs last longer and are less expensive. With that being said you have to pick what aspects are important to you.

Do you care seriously about 3D picture quality or is 2D a priority with occasional 3D use?

Are you going to be watching with a good amount of ambient light where you would need brighter modes?

If you are dong a dedicated room and your answer is 2D and NO to the above questions than the JVC is your answer. It is brighter in its best modes, has the best 2D picture between them, quieter, better build quality and is tops for blacks and contrast in this price range.

Other comments:

I think 130" is a little large for that size and type of screen. You might have to replace bulbs more often or use brighter modes as the bulb ages. Reviews are done with new bulbs and bulbs lose more than 50% of their brightness over their lifespan.

If you don't plan on getting it calibrated, don't worry about it. They both have decent modes out of the box but at least get a calibration disc. If you do get it calibrated don't worry about the lack of a CMS in the JVC it is not that far off. I do recommend getting them calibrated as the differences are noticeable. However being a calibrator I am biased. If you do go for calibration I suggest you find someone with good qualifications, and who is familiar with whatever PJ you get.

An AT screen is the way to go and use 3 identical speakers for the front. I'm not sure which model Def Tech you are considering but I wouldn't build a cavity for them. This will change their sound as it is not how they are designed to be used. If you mean you are going to have an ATfalse wall with AT screen and the speakers will be free standing behind it that would be fine. If that is not an option you might consider in wall speakers and get some of that space back.

If you are going to give up a couple feet of space you might consider a perforated screen with some gain instead, like Stewart's Studiotech 130. The XD doesn't measure as well as the specs. The problem with perforated screens is acoustically it is best to have the speakers 8-12" behind the screen, but that might work for your situation depending on which speakers.

Hope this helps.
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post #10 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you so much for the explanation--it does make sense. I always had wondered when they meant calibrated, it was to what standard or point! Much appreciated.
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post #11 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Bob,

That helps tremendously. I have the mythos 1 speakers (the original 4 foot speakers in aluminum) I was going to build an entire space of about 2 foot deep and put the three speakers and the Supercube behind there. It would be a cavity, not individual spaces for each speaker. Would that work? I haven't asked about putting a subwoofer. Would you recommend a 120" screen instead? It would have a throw of about 10 feet and the viewing distance is about 13 feet. At that distance do you think that the image of a 130" be too overwhelming or would the picture just not be optimal from a brightness POV?

Thanks.
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post #12 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 09:29 PM
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Stevenjw or anyone else

I hope that I am not changing course here. I do have a question about one of the pj's in question. Does any have experience with the 6010 vs. the mits 9000? Looking to upgrade from 8350. I have posted elsewhere, knowledge on mits seems to be limited.
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post #13 of 29 Old 07-15-2012, 10:19 PM
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You should get the JVC45 if you're not a fan of 3D, I have the Epson 6010/9000w and I'm still not a fan despite its decent 3D. I like the 2D image on the Epson alot but I slightly regret not getting the JVC now.
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But do you think that without a side to side you can in your memory tell the difference between the JVC and Epson 6010? I'm starting to think and after reading hundreds of threads that the difference in 2D between the Sony HW30, JVC45 and Epson 6010 are pretty minute!

Since you have the 6010 does the fan noise ever bother you? Thanks
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post #15 of 29 Old 07-16-2012, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechuan View Post

But do you think that without a side to side you can in your memory tell the difference between the JVC and Epson 6010? I'm starting to think and after reading hundreds of threads that the difference in 2D between the Sony HW30, JVC45 and Epson 6010 are pretty minute!
Since you have the 6010 does the fan noise ever bother you? Thanks

Throw distance?
Viewing distance?
Screen size, type and gain?

Need these answers to give you better advice.

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post #16 of 29 Old 07-16-2012, 06:45 AM
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The 6010's fan noise is quiet enough on low lamp but a tad noisy on high lamp which is forced in 3D, my unit has a noisy iris though which is noticeable during quiet scenes but I've learnt to put up with it.
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post #17 of 29 Old 07-16-2012, 08:21 AM
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HW30 vs RS45:
Code:
20 IRE            6148 (vs 6805)
30 IRE            6487 (vs 6452)
40 IRE            6550 (vs 6421)
50 IRE            6560 (vs 6480)
60 IRE            6553 (vs 6556)
70 IRE            6573 (vs 6556)
80 IRE            6568 (vs 6558)
90 IRE            6531 (vs 6537)
100 IRE           6699 (vs 6463)

Average gamma= 2.25 (vs 2.17)

Source:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-rs45/performance.php#bright
http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/vpl-hw30es/performance.php

If you can wait 3 months, I would wait for HW40 to decide, otherwise RS45 is best bet for 2D.

[]s,
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post #18 of 29 Old 07-16-2012, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello Mike,

Thanks for the response. The throw distance would be about 13-15 feet. I would like the screen size to be about 120 inches with a seating distance of 11-13 feet. I am planning on using the Seymour XD which has a quoted gain of 1.1. The room is dedicated and I am building lights on the side only with a starfield on top.

Joe
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post #19 of 29 Old 07-16-2012, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice! When do they generally introduce the newer models? Is it the CES trade show? I just came back from a local HT store and saw some Sharp mid projector that was like $5k compared to the 6010--I thought the latter was better and quieter!


Joe
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post #20 of 29 Old 07-17-2012, 03:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechuan View Post

Bob,

That helps tremendously. I have the mythos 1 speakers (the original 4 foot speakers in aluminum) I was going to build an entire space of about 2 foot deep and put the three speakers and the Supercube behind there. It would be a cavity, not individual spaces for each speaker. Would that work? I haven't asked about putting a subwoofer. Would you recommend a 120" screen instead? It would have a throw of about 10 feet and the viewing distance is about 13 feet. At that distance do you think that the image of a 130" be too overwhelming or would the picture just not be optimal from a brightness POV?

Thanks.

130" would not be overwhelming but it is not optimal for brightness over time.

The cavity would be better than individual cavities but still not ideal. You would definitely need more acoustic treatments than with a false wall. At your seating distance and screen size your front soundstage would still be pretty narrow. Even with a 130" screen I would put the L/.R speakers outside the screen and toe them in, that's why I'd use a false wall with AT material. Pretty inexpensive to build too. At 13' seating distance speakers should be minimun 11' apart and up to 15' apart.

SInce your room is not wide I would move them a little closer to the wall and treat the side and back wall for SBIR. This assumes an 80hz crossover which ideally would place your speakers more than 3.5' from any wall.
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post #21 of 29 Old 07-17-2012, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Bob. Thanks for your input. After going to an HT store yesterday and seeing what 130" 16:9 at 15 feet felt like, it seemed a little too big for me. I think I will go 120". So, would you recommend an arrangement like this:


I I
| L C SW R | Cavity
******************
False Wall
I I
I I
I I
I I
I I

And have the speakers actually behind the wall, but pointed into the room?
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post #22 of 29 Old 07-17-2012, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Woops, I tried to type out the layout, but it messed up. Can I send you an email with a drawing?

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check your PM
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post #24 of 29 Old 07-20-2012, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright, so I decided that I just want to focus on 2D and want the best possible quality for a budget of $3000. I have found a used JVC RS35 for sale which after looking at the numbers, has higher contrast ratio than the newer generations of the 40 and 45, although not as bright. Which would you guys recommend?

Thanks,

Joe
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post #25 of 29 Old 07-20-2012, 02:13 PM
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Well if it were me, I'd buy new just because it is much less risky. The "real-world" difference in PQ between an RS-35 and RS-45 isn't going to be much when watching movies.
Plus, the RS-45 has lens memory for CIH and I expect it will hold its value better over the years. In a couple years the RS-35's are going to seem like dinosaurs just because how old they are (even if they are still good).



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post #26 of 29 Old 07-20-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I was actually thinking about getting a B stock 45 and it would be about $800 less as well between the two. Do you think that the 35 would be noticable sharper or have a more 'refined' image? Also, did the 35 have the lamp burnout issues as well?

Thanks again,

Joe
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post #27 of 29 Old 07-20-2012, 04:31 PM
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I don't think you can get much sharper than the JVC from seating distance as far as how it looks in video. There is a chance the RS-40 you buy could be sharper than an RS-35, and vice versa. Going to be more of a luck of draw on convergence. I would not buy a projector that expensive site unseen unless it was backed by a major vendor (like the B-stocks are). So I think the B-stocks are the best deal if you don't care about CIH. There is always the slight chance of getting a lame unit with any projector, but it is what it is.

I've seen an HD-250, an RS-20, RS-40, and I own an RS-45.
I never saw the RS-35 that I remember (I think I may have actually at a convention once, but wasn't sure if it was an RS-25 or RS-35), but from what other posters that owned it said, it shouldn't make much difference. The RS-40/RS-45 might actually be a little better at motion (neither are the best at this though). As far as sharpness, again luck of the draw most likely. With an RS-35 you were more likely to get a sharper unit because it was hand-picked supposedly by JVC, but I think the newer batch of JVC's (RS-40 onward) are generally sharper on average than the older batch by default (from what I've seen). So either way it's impossible to say. What I can say is all the RS-40's and RS-45's were sharper than the RS-20's I've seen.

That said, at least with the recent JVC's I've seen, they beat all the Epson's I've seen and all recent LCD's on sharpness, and even beat some cheaper DLP's. So being the sharpness junkie that I am, the RS-45 was the first non-DLP I thought that crossed the barrier of being so sharp it didn't matter much anymore. Any sharper would really only benefit a tiny bit in HTPC (but maybe 10% max IMHO, and even then it doesn't matter to me).



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for both one projector or dual stacks

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post #28 of 29 Old 07-20-2012, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks CG for the awesome feedback. If you don't mind me asking, how do you think the 40 compares to the 45? The B stock 40 is about $400 less. In a light-controlled environment, does the few more lumens in the best mode of the 45 make a practical difference? Also, does the lamp issue concern you or do you think it's kind of blown out of proportion?

Thanks in advance.

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post #29 of 29 Old 07-20-2012, 07:12 PM
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RS-40 looked identical to me, same sharpness really, same color, same brightness. Theoretically the RS-45 is a tiny tiny bit brighter, but not enough difference to notice in real-world viewing. They are basically the same projector. Some have claimed the RS-40 is better in 3D, but I didn't see a difference (maybe). The RS-40 is an RS-45 without CIH.

Lamp issue is only a big concern if you are a really heavy user and already pushing your budget. AVS will stand behind the lamps on the B-stock units, so I don't see it as a big concern for MOST people.
If you are one of those people that use it all day for work or something (like use it as a monitor), then yah the lamp could be a big deal.



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