OFFICIAL THREAD SONY VPL-HW50ES new SXRD Projector IFA BERLIN 2012 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 302 Old 10-06-2012, 03:32 PM
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post #92 of 302 Old 10-06-2012, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Thanks for all of your comments Jason! When you compare the RS55 to the RS55 in 2D could you possibly adjust the brightness setting on the JVC to give us with a JVC an idea of what black levels are like on the HW50? For example, if you your RS55's manual iris is set at -11, the brightness at 0, with the lamp set to normal mode, and both projectors have a blank input (both outputting a black screen) you could adjust the brightness on the JVC to match the Sony as close as possible. So for example the Sony HW50's best black level might match the JVC when the brightness is set to +1 on the JVC. If this was true then those of us with JVCs could set our projector's manual iris, lamp mode, and brightness to what you use to get a baseline for what to expect with the Sony HW50. This may not help so much with mixed content but it may give somewhat of a baseline comparison for those of us who can't see these projectors in action.
+1

Everybody would have to have the same screen, same room and the same lamp for that to match up.

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post #93 of 302 Old 10-06-2012, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Everybody would have to have the same screen, same room and the same lamp for that to match up.

I am just referring to an all black screen. Zombie10uk has an HP screen too (albeit he has a 2.8 gain screen I a 2.4 gain. Light reflection should be minimal and I don't believe he has white walls. While this would be room dependent wouldn't results in this scenario at least be comparable (even though results may differ slightly)? Now if we were talking pictures on screen then that would be a different story.
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post #94 of 302 Old 10-06-2012, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kraine View Post

My HW50ES is on the way ETA Monday wink.gif The review and a shootout with the VIEWSONIC PRO9000 will follow by the end of next week smile.gif

Tough tough matchup for the Viewsonic. eek.gif Let's hope the margin isn't astronomical! biggrin.gif
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post #95 of 302 Old 10-07-2012, 06:56 AM
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While waiting I found the manual here: http://www.docs.sony.com/release/VPLHW50ES.pdf

Being new to Sony projectors I see the section on imagedirector3. Does that require any special hardware or just a windows laptop? If just a laptop what does this software really do?

Thanks
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post #96 of 302 Old 10-07-2012, 01:05 PM
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So, MotionFlow 'Film Projection' is the mode that enables Black Frame Insertion (BFI), yes?

According to the manual, the picture is brighter when 'Film Projection' is off, which is why I'm concluding that 'on' is actually BFI.

I'm really looking forward to how well BFI works to decrease motion judder in 24p content. Naively, I would also think it might reduce ghosting in 3D (by blanking panels between left/right eye images), but perhaps that's too complicated to work in 3D (& maybe undesirable due to the loss of brightness).

Rick, is MotionFlow 'Film Projection' available in 3D?

Hoping my 50ES ships out from AVS soon...
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post #97 of 302 Old 10-07-2012, 01:27 PM
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Furthermore, wouldn't 'Film Projection's' Black Frame Insertion help with motion blur, since it blanks the panel between every 1/24s frame?

As long as the black frame isn't too long (which it sometimes is on actual film projectors), there shouldn't be any perceivable flicker... but potentially less motion blur & less motion judder.

Sorry for being OT; I actually can't find any good discussions about Sony's Black Frame Insertion use in projectors, where typically lumens is a concern.

Then again, w/ the bright image of the 50ES, maybe BFI will be useful for knocking down the lumens on 2D content.
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post #98 of 302 Old 10-07-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

Furthermore, wouldn't 'Film Projection's' Black Frame Insertion help with motion blur, since it blanks the panel between every 1/24s frame?
As long as the black frame isn't too long (which it sometimes is on actual film projectors), there shouldn't be any perceivable flicker... but potentially less motion blur & less motion judder.
Sorry for being OT; I actually can't find any good discussions about Sony's Black Frame Insertion use in projectors, where typically lumens is a concern.
Then again, w/ the bright image of the 50ES, maybe BFI will be useful for knocking down the lumens on 2D content.

On my VW90, BFI had 2 modes. Mode 1 was actually inserting RED frames, and had very minimal light loss. I always used as I found it broke up the sample and hold effect nicely. It doesn't reduce juddder at all, just sample and hold. I used it mainly with 60hz sources as enableing BFI added noticeable flicker when playing movies at 24hz.

Mode 2 was proper BFI with black frames and this made the motion even better but the light loss was very high. Seemed like half as bright to me.

Overall I really liked combing BFI with Motioflow when watching everything except 24p movies.

I would confirm that the projector actually does BFI as the 30 didn't and usually only the higher end sony models Vw90, 95, 1000 had this feature.

Also BFI was not able to be activated in 3D.
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post #99 of 302 Old 10-07-2012, 02:49 PM
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Sony's own page for the 30ES says that it has Dark Frame Insertion:

http://discover.store.sony.com/ES/projectors/VPL-HW30ES.html

Too bad you're saying it introduces flicker with 24p content, since that's exactly what I'd like to use it mainly for. 24p Blu-Ray is much smoother to me than 24p content that goes thru 3:2 pull-down.

Guess I'll have to wait & see!

Thanks for the info!
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post #100 of 302 Old 10-08-2012, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm1212 View Post

While waiting I found the manual here: http://www.docs.sony.com/release/VPLHW50ES.pdf
Being new to Sony projectors I see the section on imagedirector3. Does that require any special hardware or just a windows laptop? If just a laptop what does this software really do?
Thanks

Can anyone tell me anything about imagedirector3? Is it a calibration tool or just a convenience for changing the monitor settings?

thanks
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post #101 of 302 Old 10-08-2012, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

Sony's own page for the 30ES says that it has Dark Frame Insertion:
http://discover.store.sony.com/ES/projectors/VPL-HW30ES.html
Too bad you're saying it introduces flicker with 24p content, since that's exactly what I'd like to use it mainly for. 24p Blu-Ray is much smoother to me than 24p content that goes thru 3:2 pull-down.
Guess I'll have to wait & see!
Thanks for the info!

Most modern projectors use at least 2:2 pulldown (48 Hz) if not 3:3 (72 Hz), 4:4 (96 Hz), 5:5 (120 Hz), etc. when the input signal is 24 Hz. If creative frame interopolation is being used one, or more, of the additional frames (i.e.., beyond the 24 original frames per second) are interpolated frames inserted between two sequential original frames. If black frame insertion is being used and you see flicker then the projector is perhaps operating as low as 96 Hz with each Original Frames displayed two times interleaved with two Black Frames (i.e., OF - BF - OF - BF) each 1/24 second. However if the projector is displaying 2D at 240 Hz. then you should have 5 orignal frames interleaved with 5 black frames during each 24 sec. interval and most people should not notice flicker.

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post #102 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Rick you are no more alone smile.gif Review will follow in a couple of days smile.gif
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post #103 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Rick you are no more alone smile.gif Review will follow in a couple of days smile.gif

Kraine - please focus (get it? smile.gif ) on any real improvements of the optics vs the HW30 or are the noted improvements a result of the RC sharpening?

Also the infamous L/R patterns would be most appreciated. thanks!
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post #104 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Rick have already post those L/R pics but of course I will also use them as usual smile.gif

And yes zombie10k I will "focus" on your demand wink.gif
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post #105 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Kraine - please focus (get it? smile.gif ) on any real improvements of the optics vs the HW30 or are the noted improvements a result of the RC sharpening?
Also the infamous L/R patterns would be most appreciated. thanks!



Jason

I have asked Sony about that ( the lens ) and it is the "same" lens as the one in the 30ES, BUT they have modificed "something" in it ( would´nt/could´nt ? tell me exact what ) , to get better performence + the RC ads extra sharpness.


dj
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post #106 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 08:36 AM
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Hey! Great to see more people are coming to the party smile.gif
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post #107 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Rick have already post those L/R pics but of course I will also use them as usual smile.gif

And yes zombie10k I will "focus" on your demand wink.gif

Kraine is a professional reviewer (and my prefered smile.gif) For my part, I am a just a hobbyist who try to have fun...

Cant wait to comapre my results...
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post #108 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Jason

I have asked Sony about that ( the lens ) and it is the "same" lens as the one in the 30ES, BUT they have modificed "something" in it ( would´nt/could´nt ? tell me exact what ) , to get better performence + the RC ads extra sharpness.

dj

thanks for the info. I'd like to see the HW30 vs. HW50 direct comparison with no RC to find out what's changed. My RS55's lens is exceptionally sharp so I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.
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post #109 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by kraine View Post





Rick you are no more alone smile.gif Review will follow in a couple of days smile.gif

I received mine on Saturday. I had to call Sony, since it did not include the extra lamp. They say they are sending.
I have to say that I am extremely impressed with the HW50ES. The picture is amazingly detailed and bright (while still looking like film). Of course I was upgrading from the HW10 which is over 4 years old. I had some non-videophile friends over for some movie watching yesterday and they all commented on how sharp and bright the image was. The increased contrast and deeper blacks make a huge difference over the old HW10. Will probably try and calibrate soon, though the settings out of the box look pretty amazing.
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post #110 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes you're right an damn amazing picture !
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Jason
I have asked Sony about that ( the lens ) and it is the "same" lens as the one in the 30ES, BUT they have modificed "something" in it ( would´nt/could´nt ? tell me exact what ) , to get better performence + the RC ads extra sharpness.
dj
Probably to embarrassed to admit it. Cine4Home reported Panasonic added a lens coating to their new projector, a first for this year. Picture quality took a big jump..
How many decades has Panasonic been designing projectors? I bought Sony's first front projector back in 1982 - 30 years ago.
How long have Sony and Panasonic been making top quality camera lens?

When did Sony first introduce reality/creation processing in their flat panels? 1997 (i researched it). So its taken 15 years for creation to arrive in front projectors.

Damn, no wonder everyone is so excited to get two modern features in one year.
Some might say Darbee forced their hand.
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post #112 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for the info. I'd like to see the HW30 vs. HW50 direct comparison with no RC to find out what's changed. My RS55's lens is exceptionally sharp so I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.


I looked a the test pattern ( when you adjust the focus ), because when this is activated, the RC is off. And I must say it did look better and sharper overall then the 30 ( but not then the 95ES or the RS55 IMO ) I would classify it betwen the 30 and the 95.
when you ad the RC, it looks more sharp, but a little more "digital" / "noisy " ( but like the darbe, I think most people will like it ), the picture in general. Looked very good.

Dj
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post #113 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

I looked a the test pattern ( when you adjust the focus ), because when this is activated, the RC is off. And I must say it did look better and sharper overall then the 30 ( but not then the 95ES or the RS55 IMO ) I would classify it betwen the 30 and the 95.
when you ad the RC, it looks more sharp, but a little more "digital" / "noisy " ( but like the darbe, I think most people will like it ), the picture in general. Looked very good.
Dj

DJ - thanks for the observations, it's in the range of what I was expecting to hear. It's a shame they didn't shoe-horn the 95 lens on it, but then they would cannibalize sales of the still current VW95. my guess is we'll see a 95 refresh next year with the RC, brighter / better 3D, etc.

There's no doubt the battle this year will be between the HW50 and RS4810. Cine4home's positive comments on improved 3D and e-shift2 are bound to have the comparisons running well into next year. I have the RS56 arriving when it's released and looking forward to seeing how the HW50 hold up to the new JVC's this year.

We're going to have a deep dive with plenty of closeups of the RC vs. E-shift vs. Darbee.

You can just sit back and enjoy the VW1000. smile.gif
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post #114 of 302 Old 10-09-2012, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

DJ - thanks for the observations, it's in the range of what I was expecting to hear. It's a shame they didn't shoe-horn the 95 lens on it, but then they would cannibalize sales of the still current VW95. my guess is we'll see a 95 refresh next year with the RC, brighter / better 3D, etc.
There's no doubt the battle this year will be between the HW50 and RS4810. Cine4home's positive comments on improved 3D and e-shift2 are bound to have the comparisons running well into next year. I have the RS56 arriving when it's released and looking forward to seeing how the HW50 hold up to the new JVC's this year.
We're going to have a deep dive with plenty of closeups of the RC vs. E-shift vs. Darbee.
You can just sit back and enjoy the VW1000. smile.gif

Not yet wink.gif ( have not buyed it....... yet redface.gif ) and all the new very promising projectors dosnt do it easyer biggrin.gif


Dj
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post #115 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 04:32 AM
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Received mine last night too. Looks good. I also had to call for the 2nd lamp. I didn't have much time to play with it after installing on the ceiling.

I had one odd sequence with 3d. Directv box and ps3 both said they didn't detect a 3d capable tv. I'm switching through a denon receiver so I direct connected to the ps3. Then it detected 3d, but after I switched cables back it worked with both devices through the denon. I even power cycled everything and it still worked. I'm thinking maybe the pj needs to be powered up first or maybe it just had to be brought up once or something?

Thanks
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post #116 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

I looked a the test pattern ( when you adjust the focus ), because when this is activated, the RC is off. And I must say it did look better and sharper overall then the 30 ( but not then the 95ES or the RS55 IMO ) I would classify it betwen the 30 and the 95.
when you ad the RC, it looks more sharp, but a little more "digital" / "noisy " ( but like the darbe, I think most people will like it ), the picture in general. Looked very good.
Dj


Darbee had nothing to do with it. The Darblet release timing was too late to have influenced Sony at all.

Basically, economics is the driving influence where all manufacturers are pretty much forced to use the same chassis for multiple years with a relatively small design team tweaking the design from year to year. Sony RC has been around for years, it hit FPs on the 1000ES, good marketing to yell trickle down and include it in the 30, renamed the 50, this year. Ditto for a few more changes.

The lens used in the 50 was and evidently if it hasn't changed significantly or at all, remains a weak point opitical quality wise in the design. Adequate but nothing to brag to your mother about. Once again, economics forced the lens design, materials, and country of manufacture. RC is a way of making the lens appear to perform better without changing its performance. Nothing wrong with that but RC does involve negative artifacts.

None of this is to say that the sum of the tweaks Sony has made to the 30, renaming it the 50, has not significantly improved the machine. Competition at this price level forces significant improvements to remain competitive. At the higher price point of the 1000ES, yearly change is not required. For one reason price point didn't force cost cutting compromises and there is no competition.

Let me go on record about the innanity that there is some battle going to take place between RC vs eshift2. Which is better? They are different animals and do completely different things. A more logical comparison would be Darbee processing vs RC processing but even here they are performed differenty and can be used in series with a net positive benefit greater than either one itself, at least on the 1000ES. Eshift2 clearly is more significant than the Sony RC. Eshift2 gives you some of the 4HD experience. The problem is they both involve the description more real. 4HD from 1080p looks more real. RC improves the resolution of detail. So does the Darbee process. But they do it differently with different results. But neither will make a 1080p display look like a 4HD or 4K display, whether real or done by tricking your eyes in a good way by eshift2.

And let's talk about eshift2, which I like a lot. It is a stop gap measure. A transition bridge to native 4HD panels, A relatively cheap way of offering 4HD pixels to ones eyes. Very very well done by JVC this year. But don't kid yourself, 4K panels for consumer projectors are coming and eshift will be nothing more than a historical footnote in a few years. But until that happens, it does offer a lot of the 4K from 1080p sources experience.

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post #117 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 07:16 AM
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My prior pj (mitsu hc5000) was a little on the dim side with my screen so the simple thing I notice most right now is brightness. I guess because of what I'm used to i find the 3d glasses on high brightness look great. There are several settings under RC, not sure which I should be tweaking. Any tips?
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post #118 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 07:20 AM
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I only have the Sony 1000ES and do not have a 50ES. Tell me, under RC on, is it like the 1000ES with two adjustments from 0 to 100, one for resolution and one for noise?

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post #119 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 07:34 AM
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Received mine last night too. Looks good. I also had to call for the 2nd lamp. I didn't have much time to play with it after installing on the ceiling.
I had one odd sequence with 3d. Directv box and ps3 both said they didn't detect a 3d capable tv. I'm switching through a denon receiver so I direct connected to the ps3. Then it detected 3d, but after I switched cables back it worked with both devices through the denon. I even power cycled everything and it still worked. I'm thinking maybe the pj needs to be powered up first or maybe it just had to be brought up once or something?
Thanks
I had the same issue with the PS3. I called Sony and they walked me through it. You just need to change the display settings on the PS3 to confirm you have a 3D display. It doesn't recognize it automatically.
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post #120 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I only have the Sony 1000ES and do not have a 50ES. Tell me, under RC on, is it like the 1000ES with two adjustments from 0 to 100, one for resolution and one for noise?

yes that's right, I'm not sure the impact of the two if someone could give me a rule of thumb what to look for as I change these it would be great.

steve
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