OFFICIAL THREAD SONY VPL-HW50ES new SXRD Projector IFA BERLIN 2012 - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 11:31 AM
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OK. The resolution control tends to sharpen the pixels giving what appears to be greater resolution or sharpening without ringing. Too much and it will look fake, sort of plastic looking. As you turn it up, noise becomes visable, look at blue sky in an image. Turning up the noise filter will remove some of the noise but cause some loss of detail as well.

If you want to see how it works and the interacttion between the two controls, put up vertical and horizontal single pixel lines on off patterns. Move the resolution control around and see what you get. Tthen try moving the noise control around. The pattern will look weird, banding, blotchiness etc unless proper matches are selected. Once again, I am going off how the controls act on my 1000ES and not on the 50ES. Most people really don't know where these controls should be set and desperately want others who don't know either to tell them. I am so unsure myself, I leave them on the factory defaults for each mode on my 1000ES. Ii can't seem to make it look better by changing the settings for RC and changing them really screws uo my test patterns.

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post #122 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

And let's talk about eshift2, which I like a lot. It is a stop gap measure. A transition bridge to native 4HD panels, A relatively cheap way of offering 4HD pixels to ones eyes. Very very well done by JVC this year. But don't kid yourself, 4K panels for consumer projectors are coming and eshift will be nothing more than a historical footnote in a few years. But until that happens, it does offer a lot of the 4K from 1080p sources experience.

Mark, is it a mistake to buy eshift2 machines this year if one were to keep the projector for at least 3 years ? My concern is with 4K contents coming in the next couples years but the eshift2 machines cannot accept 4K input. Is this a big deal ?
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post #123 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 12:37 PM
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Predicting the future is a crap shoot at best. I don't know. If 4K content becomes readily available for a decent price, that would be a big deal. I understand why a 4K input was not provided because it would have to downscale the 4HD source image and then process it so it could be flashed, shifted with pixel overlap to create it back as close as possible to what it was. Considering that and the unavailability of 4HD blurays or whatever, taking the expense and possibly raising the price of the projectors would not be a wise decision for JVC. How long will it take for 4HD panel projectors to become available at anything close to street for a JVC RS4810? Its all price relative. Me? If I didn't own a Sony 1000ES, I would buy an eshift JVC, probably the 4810 and I would be quite happy until i could get a 4HD panel machine at a price i would be comfortable at. One only lives oince and a 67 years old my buying decisions are not made considering the term length. Let's put it another way. The changes this year by JVC would be enogh to upgrade from a last year's machine. A 45 to 4810 would be a no brainer. A 55 to a 4810 would be too.

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post #124 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Reality creation off



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post #125 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 04:27 PM
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Kraine - Hi, thanks for posting. Any chance you have one of the Darbee devices?

I'd like to see the HW50 + Darbee, HW50 + RC and then both. The Darbee looks very similar to the RC enhancements.
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post #126 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 04:34 PM
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The image with the RC on is so much brighter. I don't think the Darbee would get this bright at 120 max.
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post #127 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 04:54 PM
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??? The RC isn't going to change the brightness of the image.
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post #128 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

Mark, is it a mistake to buy eshift2 machines this year if one were to keep the projector for at least 3 years ? My concern is with 4K contents coming in the next couples years but the eshift2 machines cannot accept 4K input. Is this a big deal ?

I am not as optimistic as some, thinking 4K content is going to be readily available in 2 years. Heck it took several years for the masses (projector world) to fully switch over to 1080P and that was with 1080P content available. So you have the chicken and the egg problem. The masses are not going to buy 4K projectors if there is not 4K material. 4K material is not going to be produced if the market is not big enough to support it. I think it is going to take a while to become fully adopted.

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post #129 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

??? The RC isn't going to change the brightness of the image.

I was referring to Kraine's pictures above. The image with the RC on looks much brighter.
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post #130 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 06:46 PM
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IDK about the image being brighter but when you look @ image with RC on it shows the image with more detail and sharpness...I personally like it

"We can complain because rose bushes have thorns or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses". - Abraham Lincoln
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post #131 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

I was referring to Kraine's pictures above. The image with the RC on looks much brighter.

We have to ask Kraine if the exposures are the same, the RC should not affect the brightness.

I'd like to see the HW50 with RC off + Darbee, the net effect of the RC appears similar to the Darbee processing.
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post #132 of 302 Old 10-10-2012, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I am not as optimistic as some, thinking 4K content is going to be readily available in 2 years. Heck it took several years for the masses (projector world) to fully switch over to 1080P and that was with 1080P content available. So you have the chicken and the egg problem. The masses are not going to buy 4K projectors if there is not 4K material. 4K material is not going to be produced if the market is not big enough to support it. I think it is going to take a while to become fully adopted.

Totally agree with you Mike. Right now we are seeing the hype machine trying to make the masses feel like you have to have 4k. Not saying 4k isn't a step up, but you really need a large screen to be able to start to appreciate the difference. Just like upconverted DVD did not excite, but native 1080p Blu-ray did, I just am not excited about 4k unless we get a true 4k format. It took BD a long time to get to the point where the hot titles could sell 50 to 70 percent on the HD format. I think a lot of the 4k proponents are going to be disappointed that the market is not going to rush to 4k overnight. Look forward to another 5 to 8 years after a true 4k format is actually available before 4k even has a chance at mainstream.

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post #133 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 02:23 AM
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You really need to see 4K on my normal size HT screen (110" D 16/9) viewed from 12.5 ft before you say you need a big screen. There really is no hype machine. Its not really for the masses, just like a Telsa electric car is not for the masses.

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post #134 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Totally agree with you Mike. Right now we are seeing the hype machine trying to make the masses feel like you have to have 4k. Not saying 4k isn't a step up, but you really need a large screen to be able to start to appreciate the difference. Just like upconverted DVD did not excite, but native 1080p Blu-ray did, I just am not excited about 4k unless we get a true 4k format. It took BD a long time to get to the point where the hot titles could sell 50 to 70 percent on the HD format. I think a lot of the 4k proponents are going to be disappointed that the market is not going to rush to 4k overnight. Look forward to another 5 to 8 years after a true 4k format is actually available before 4k even has a chance at mainstream.

Have you seen the VW1000 upconvert 1080p?

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post #135 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

We have to ask Kraine if the exposures are the same, the RC should not affect the brightness.
I'd like to see the HW50 with RC off + Darbee, the net effect of the RC appears similar to the Darbee processing.

Yes, thats the key to giving you any chance of comparing side by side images. If the camera auto controls the shutter/exposure/iso and aperture then you can't make a side by side comparison with images like the ones above. On first glance on the images above yes the RC image look better but in actual fact, the whites are blown and crushed. If this was RC at work I would be very concerned but it's likely the camera was at fault, not the RC. Fully manual on the camera is the only way to go and we hope you'll be providing some shots soon Zombie in shootout 2 as we know your photography skills are up to the job smile.gif
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post #136 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 05:37 AM
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One little thing I noticed last night is that when 3d is on the unit makes a little high pitched noise. Anyone else notice this?
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post #137 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 06:29 AM
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Is this the same sound as when the machine is on high lamp, high altitude mode?

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post #138 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 08:02 AM
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I haven't noticed any different sound in 3D mode (actually the projector is super quiet and it's right above the seating). I'll look out for it though. I have the lamp set at High.
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post #139 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Have you seen the VW1000 upconvert 1080p?

No I haven't but it is still NOT native. I heard the same arguments from DVD diehard claiming 480i upscaled to 1080 was 'near' HD. Too me it was slightly better but it was no where 'near' HD when compared to a true native source. Again its an old trick applied to a new resolution. The point is the real future for 4k is NATIVE content. The push by the industry in the near to mid future is going to be about how well the units up-scale because getting real 4k content is going to be next to nonexistent.

How much did you hear about 'up-scaling' 480 after we had true HD content from multiple sources? The only thing I can think of is Toshiba hyping their 'super upconverters' and we all know why they were doing that.

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post #140 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 08:23 AM
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I know on the HW30 that the 3D mode caused the bulb to go into the high power mode which in turn set the fan speed to high. I run my fan speed at high all the time since I would rather have a slight hum than burnt out electronics. Even in high speed fan mode it is still relatively quiet. The Sony BD player drive makes more of higher pitch whine than the projector ever has.

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post #141 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You really need to see 4K on my normal size HT screen (110" D 16/9) viewed from 12.5 ft before you say you need a big screen. There really is no hype machine. Its not really for the masses, just like a Telsa electric car is not for the masses.

Mark,

Right there is the issue... to the typical homeowner a 110" screen is not an average size screen... that's HUGE.

No hype machine... I disagree I am sure starting to see a lot things pop up around the enthusiast sites why 4k is needed. Also didn't Sony prominently feature 4k technology in one of their recent press conferences. Just like there was no hype machine around 3D three to four years ago... it's there. The CE industry is just moving forward with the next tech to push.

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post #142 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Comparaison between the JVC E-SHIFT (X55) and the SONY Reality creation (SONY HW50ES)

JVC



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post #143 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 09:11 AM
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Huge difference in sharpness, I can't believe the JVC has an image so soft!!
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post #144 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 09:38 AM
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E-shift isn't really a sharpening algorithm, RC is. They are two completely different things. Typically the Sony has had the softer image in the past, sharpening algorithms aside. You can't judge much from a screenshot, you'd need to A/B it in person.


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post #145 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Is this the same sound as when the machine is on high lamp, high altitude mode?

I don't believe it is due to High lamp because I still have that on all the time. I'll set the High Altitude MOde and see if that triggers it. I do know that a standard blu-ray doesn't do it. It starts when I start playing a 3D blu-ray or if I enable the 2D-3D mode in the pj.

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post #146 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

E-shift isn't really a sharpening algorithm, RC is. They are two completely different things. Typically the Sony has had the softer image in the past, sharpening algorithms aside. You can't judge much from a screenshot, you'd need to A/B it in person.
Actually, the JVC's MPC processing does have sharpening. With MPC at 3 I could see occasional sharpening artifacts, but I felt it was a good compromise to bring out the most high contrast detail (which MPC also does). Since adding a Darbee I changed MPC to 2, the result being more natural edges combined with even more high contrast detail. The PQ on my RS55 has gone to another level making it easier to resist the new projector hype (still not that easy at times) smile.gif
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post #147 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

No I haven't but it is still NOT native. I heard the same arguments from DVD diehard claiming 480i upscaled to 1080 was 'near' HD. Too me it was slightly better but it was no where 'near' HD when compared to a true native source. Again its an old trick applied to a new resolution. The point is the real future for 4k is NATIVE content. The push by the industry in the near to mid future is going to be about how well the units up-scale because getting real 4k content is going to be next to nonexistent.
How much did you hear about 'up-scaling' 480 after we had true HD content from multiple sources? The only thing I can think of is Toshiba hyping their 'super upconverters' and we all know why they were doing that.

It is not native, but you have to see it to belive it. I have Timescapes in native 4K and it is not much better than upscaled 1080p with Reality Creation activated, of course this is not 4K blu ray (or what it is going to be called), but i doubt it will be much better than Timescapes. I have compared the VW1000 to the VW95, HW30, JVC X30, X70, Epson TW9000 in my own batcave and it is no contest in all parameters, so this VW1000 you have to see to belive.

I really look forward to see the HW50 and I really concider this in my livingroom alongside my VT30 65".

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post #148 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 11:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giudante View Post

Huge difference in sharpness, I can't believe the JVC has an image so soft!!
The obvious evidence or results are about as expected. After all Sony has been updating Reality/Creation processing for 15 years.
The 1000 designer took THE SAME CODE and plopped it into the the 50ES.

What falls out here is the JVC eShift sorely needs a Darbee to compete on sharpness and detail. The Sony 1000 and 50 do not.

Let me attempt some Mark type humor: The Darbee is to the JVC as to beautiful women coming into a prison. Both are soo enjoyable!biggrin.gif

Lastly i hope the financial pressures would loosen up a bit to allow scientific choices to be made.
When i go sample food at Costco, the server frequently tells how great it tastes, without letting customers experience and decide for themselves.
Let the full rez pictures stand for themselves

Big thanks go to Kraine for hitting a grandslam!
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post #149 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Comparaison between the JVC E-SHIFT (X55) and the SONY Reality creation (SONY HW50ES)
JVC

Kraine - were these taken in the same room with the camera in a fixed position? The shutter speed on the Sony was 1/25 of a second, the JVC was 1/13. Was the camera on a tripod with a remote trigger?

When I take A/B comparisons, I make sure the projectors and camera are all in a fixed position and use manual exposures with a remote trigger so I don't accidentally shake the camera.

any details here are appreciated .thx
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post #150 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 11:53 AM
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Neither e-shift by itself or the Darby are traditional sharpening algorithms (is what I meant), regardless of whether or not they can cause artifacts. For instance, there are objects the Darby has basically 0 effect on at normal Darby settings (30-50) because objects are not always altered depending on their range. Traditional sharpening algorithms mainly harden the image and could be thought of in a way as the opposite of anti-aliasing. The way e-shift moves the pixels to create a 4K effect is by itself not close to how any type of sharpening algorithm works other than you could argue upscaling/downscaling sharpening methods, regardless if you stack a sharpness adjustment on it and regardless comparing it with MPC. E-shift is almost like adding anti-aliasing (the opposite of sharpness), but then this effect gives you more room to add sharpening without quickly making the image too harsh (that is the advantage). I would most likely still prefer e-shift + sharpening over ANY single traditional sharpening algorithm because of the anti-aliasing like advantage e-shift gives before you start the sharpening.

RC appears to be closer to a traditional sharpening algorithm (although probably not 100% traditional). RC is more like Epson's Super Resolution or Panny's Detail Clarity enhancements, but e-shift and the Darby are not anything like those. It's not really a good way to compare unless you have multiple stacking methods of sharpening and then trying multiple combinations, which I expect Zombie to do eventually in his shoot-out. You also cannot compare with a single image and you'd need to do it across multiple content (because some sharpening methods will favor some images over others naturally). I'm not saying no-one should compare it by itself (sure it's good to try all combos), but I'm just saying it doesn't stand alone really.


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