OFFICIAL THREAD SONY VPL-HW50ES new SXRD Projector IFA BERLIN 2012 - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

.
RC appears to be closer to a traditional sharpening algorithm (although probably not 100% traditional). RC is more like Epson's Super Resolutions or Panny's Detail Clarity enhancements, but e-shift and the Darby are not anything like those. It's not really a good way to compare unless you have multiple stacking methods of sharpening and then trying multiple combinations, which I expect Zombie to do eventually in his shoot-out.

There is no 'Grand Slam' here - not by a long shot based on those photos. My RS55 is significantly sharper than that photo Kraine posted, even without the Darbee. What are the MPC settings set to on that X55?

those trying to make a determination that the HW50 is somehow better without a real A/B of these 2 projector in a controlled test environment are kidding themselves.

We need close ups with a quality SLR lens to have a fair comparison. Also stating the exact settings of the projectors (RC mode, E-shift mode) is a requirement.

Art's closeups show the RC can have adverse effects in the background, this needs a deep dive to find out exactly what RC and e-shift 2 are doing to the original image. When our HW50 arrives in a few weeks, this will be examined closely.

HW50RC.jpg
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post #152 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 11:23 AM
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There is at some point too much fake sharpness, you can only add so much artificial sharpness.

What matters more to me is the natural sharpness of a projector (how two projectors compare with all sharpness controls off, although even here you have to be careful because some sneaky MFR's = 0 are actually +5 sharpness). Hence, which projector has better pixel definition, focus uniformity, and lens sharpness by default with all sharpness enhancements off is usually the one that will be the winner. Although e-shift would still be good simply because this is something you can use in addition to sharpness filters rather than in complete replacement of.

That image posted above looks too artificially sharp to me (the background is starting to dither, and that is a sure sign of over-sharpening). However, I am not judging anything here from a screenshot, I will wait for someone to compare it in more depth.


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post #153 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by giudante View Post

Huge difference in sharpness, I can't believe the JVC has an image so soft!!

if compared side by side, I don't think you would come to the same conclusion.

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post #154 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

There is at some point too much fake sharpness, you can only add so much artificial sharpness.
What matters more to me is the natural sharpness of a projector (how two projectors compare with all sharpness controls off, although even here you have to be careful because some sneaky MFR's = 0 are actually +5 sharpness). Hence, which projector has better pixel definition, focus uniformity, and lens sharpness by default with all sharpness enhancements off is usually the one that will be the winner. Although e-shift would still be good simply because this is something you can use in addition to sharpness filters rather than in complete replacement of.
That image posted above looks too artificially sharp to me (the background is starting to dither, and that is a sure sign of over-sharpening). However, I am not judging anything here from a screenshot, I will wait for someone to compare it in more depth.
Agreed that sharpness processing can only do so much before it becomes unnatural. MPC is better than traditional sharpening, but it does have an effect on edges, unlike the Darbee.

The way to get a true increase in sharpness is to use better optics like in the Sony 1000. You can only do so much with the same basic technology/panels/quality of optics.

That's why my hunch is the main visible difference seen with eshift2 will be processing related. The effects of MPC look to be more tweakable, and with more range to bring out more Darbee like details. Should be some interesting comparisons ahead....
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post #155 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 02:22 PM
 
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Every of the four members that contested Kraine's results is a JVC owner.
Kraine posted in this Sony 50ES thread.
Why not post Kraine's pictures over in the JVC thread?

Every single professional reviewer has been most impressed with the 50ES.
What is the problem here? Isn't AVS also a Sony dealer?

This is not the place for a Sony, JVC faceoff.
Again let the pictures speak and stand for themselves.
Let new potential owners decide what they prefer.
Thanks again go to Kraine for posting. smile.gif
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post #156 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 02:31 PM
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The Darblet processing for the most part does not sharpen. In fact it unsharpens portions of the frame. It it increases the contast resolution of your system and increased contrast resolution is a measure of sharpness but its is the prepared chicken, it doesn't change the chicken itself, which is dependent on the lens and the rest of the optical engine.

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post #157 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 02:44 PM
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Hey Guys,

Does anyone know the details on the Free Lamp offer? Is it supposed to come in the package? i am getting word from a dealer that it does not come at the price they are retailing it for. Are there tiers for this purchase?

Thanks
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post #158 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 05:49 PM
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I called them and they are sending a lamp no questions asked.

On the downside I spent a short while on the phone with tech support about a transformer-like whine I hear when 3D is on. No other setting triggers it (high fan, high lamp, etc) so he concluded it's a defect. I waiting on the line now to figure out how to do the exchange. Sigh.
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post #159 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 06:33 PM
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I'm all for the Sony (or any projector) coming out of the gates and substantially improving and beating other projectors in key areas (contrast, sharpness, motion). I do not care about the brand, I just have doubts because almost every year-to-year model of a projector has been incremental improvements, with a few jumps here and there. This might be a jump for Sony, but it could still start out a little less sharp than the JVC, if it is sharper than last year, than that is good as long as in video we cannot see much difference, that would make the Sony more competitive. I'd actually like to see a sub $2.5k projector take the winnings (that way I can spend less money), but it won't happen any time soon (doubtfully ever)...

I know the Sony vw1000 has more depth because of the extra pixels (I can even see it on the commercial version of the Sony 4k at the theaters), but that is out of most of our budgets.


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post #160 of 302 Old 10-11-2012, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Every of the four members that contested Kraine's results is a JVC owner.

Why not post Kraine's pictures over in the JVC thread?

Again let the pictures speak and stand for themselves.

I own projectors from JVC, Sony, BenQ, Epson, Mitsubishi and Acer. What relevance does that have to the question I asked Kraine?

The question was straight forward. Were the 2 screenshot taken on the same screen, at the same zoom with the camera in the same location?

These photos were also posted in the JVC RS48 forum. When competing projectors are photographed, expect the forums to be filled with comparisons of 2 highly anticipated projectors.

I agree, we will let the pictures speak and stand for themselves. When we start V2.0 of the mini-shootout, this forum will see some of the most detailed, objective comparisons between the Sony and JVC around. No holds barred.

I also highly doubt the new JVC looks as bad as it does in this screen. Unless we stopped trusting Cine4home, his well respected reports speak of noticeable improvements in the e-shift process.


Sony HW50 RC vs. JVC RS55, MPC setting @ 2. My screen is 142" a fairly large size. There is still well defined detail in these thin clouds.

What is the RC doing with grain and detail? Art expressed this concern in his closeups as well. Let's be objective and fairly compare these models when the JVC is released.

e-shift4.jpg

JVC RS55 - MPC =2

e-shift1.jpg

X55 - MPC = ?

e-shift2.jpg

Sony - RC = ?

e-shift3.jpg
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post #161 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
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post #162 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 02:38 AM
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Nice work Kraine! smile.gif

It reads like it is the best pj for 5K and under. I wonder if it were the same price as the 95 which one would the majority choose? eek.gif

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post #163 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 02:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Hy joerod smile.gif

I really love the VW95ES but I will keep the HW50ES for the following reasons : the exceptionnal brightness (I have two definitive models actually at home and not a pre-serie version), the reality creation and the best 3D that I have seen for the moment. smile.gif
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post #164 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 03:12 AM
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So many good impressions of the HW50ES is making me consider it.
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post #165 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

if compared side by side, I don't think you would come to the same conclusion.

Yes I have no doubt about it, Mike..smile.gif
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post #166 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

Hy joerod smile.gif
I really love the VW95ES but I will keep the HW50ES for the following reasons : the exceptionnal brightness (I have two definitive models actually at home and not a pre-serie version), the reality creation and the best 3D that I have seen for the moment. smile.gif

The best 3D? Have you not messed with a DLP (BenQ 7000)? I actually feel the same about my 1000. I see no ghosting and most of the torture titles play fine. Even subtitles look great. I am embarrassed to report this but I now have about 105 3D titles. biggrin.gif Anyway, the pics posted showing some crosstalk in the 50ES thread (well, one of them) plays perfect on the 1000. smile.gif

Oh and before anyone says well it should be better for the money just remember that's not always true in life. Especially electronics... smile.gif

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post #167 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 05:56 AM
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It'a a tough choice between HW50 and RS4810 for me. I already have a Darbee so I don't really care for the RC.

Kraine, how's the 3D brightness on the JVC that you were testing ?
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post #168 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 06:02 AM
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Wow. Over 1100 lumens in low lamp. Wasn't the 30 around 750 lumens last year.
Quite a boost in brightness.

Thanks Kraine.
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post #169 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post

Wow. Over 1100 lumens in low lamp. Wasn't the 30 around 750 lumens last year.
Quite a boost in brightness.
Thanks Kraine.

Is there adjustments to the brightness, like an aperature ala JVC pjs? Someone mentioned that it's bordering on too bright for 2d. And since the pj would be around 3m away from screen and at near max zoom, might this pj be too bright for me? Thx!
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post #170 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine0 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post

Wow. Over 1100 lumens in low lamp. Wasn't the 30 around 750 lumens last year.
Quite a boost in brightness.
Thanks Kraine.

Is there adjustments to the brightness, like an aperature ala JVC pjs? Someone mentioned that it's bordering on too bright for 2d. And since the pj would be around 3m away from screen and at near max zoom, might this pj be too bright for me? Thx!

Yes, you can adjust the manual iris to reduce the light output.
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post #171 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 07:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

The best 3D? Have you not messed with a DLP (BenQ 7000)? I actually feel the same about my 1000. I see no ghosting and most of the torture titles play fine. Even subtitles look great. I am embarrassed to report this but I now have about 105 3D titles. biggrin.gif Anyway, the pics posted showing some crosstalk in the 50ES thread (well, one of them) plays perfect on the 1000. smile.gif
Oh and before anyone says well it should be better for the money just remember that's not always true in life. Especially electronics... smile.gif
Nice post.

Lets not forget the DC2 7000 was passed over by many members. One reason is the very poor measured contrast from Kris Deering's review: "With the DynamicBlack control off, the projector’s native resolution was about 650:1, which is the lowest native contrast I’ve measured for a DLP."
Now Kraine measure 9000:1 (45000:1) for the 50ES. tongue.gif

Could the low-contrast and inferior black level of the 7000 3D be worse than the high contrast and excellent black level of the 50ES? The is what Joerod and Kraine have observed.
So we have a new 3D rule that stands until its broken: The higher the dynamic range the harder it is to eliminate the ghosting.
Just as with 2D, single 3D test pattern does not present the whole picture.

A great example of when to reserve judgment and wait a bit for the technology to mature. Otherwise you'll be buying new projectors every year (an never be satisfied). wink.gif

So here we have a well respected 95ES owner preferring the 50 overall. The Sony Product Manager was quoted last month having the same preference.
Looks like the 50ES is a high performance, trouble free 3D projector. It is King of the Hill.
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post #172 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 08:08 AM
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kraine noted that the projector had 65% vertical lens shift. That is what the HW30AES had. I believe the vertical lens shift was increased with the new HW50ES. It should be 71% vertical lens shift. Of course, the vertical is tied in with the horizontal, so use of horizontal decreases the amount of vertical available.

I would like some clarification on Kraine's lumen numbers. Sony stated a 30% increase in brightness over the HW30. The review is saying 1108 calibrated lumens in low and 1704 lumens in high? That is way more than a 30% increase. Art measured 992 calibrated lumens in high lamp mid zoom. it would be great if the projector has that much brightness, but it just does not sound correct to me.

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post #173 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 08:17 AM
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After watching Shrek 4 in 3D on my JVC RS45 last night it's not just the crosstalk that is bothersome but how it handles poor motion. Pans break up the clarity and flow of the image. And after the reports and early impressions that I am reading is the reason why I am heavily leaning towards the HW50ES over the RS46 or the VW95ES. If I find black levels slightly lacking in the HW50ES there's always the ND filter route I suppose which i assume would hurt a little in a dynamic image. Oh well, most of us here will likely be considering an upgrade the following year if finances agree anyway. smile.gif
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post #174 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

The obvious evidence or results are about as expected. After all Sony has been updating Reality/Creation processing for 15 years.
The 1000 designer took THE SAME CODE and plopped it into the the 50ES.
What falls out here is the JVC eShift sorely needs a Darbee to compete on sharpness and detail. The Sony 1000 and 50 do not.
Let me attempt some Mark type humor: The Darbee is to the JVC as to beautiful women coming into a prison. Both are soo enjoyable!biggrin.gif
Lastly i hope the financial pressures would loosen up a bit to allow scientific choices to be made.
When i go sample food at Costco, the server frequently tells how great it tastes, without letting customers experience and decide for themselves.
Let the full rez pictures stand for themselves
Big thanks go to Kraine for hitting a grandslam!


No, he didnt actully smile.gif - He had to make a different new one, because the RC code in the 1000ES is made in 4K scaling/ resolution - where the HW50 is done in 2K
But it is the same guy, and he have taken a lot off good things ( and experience ) from the 1000ES and put into the HW50, but some off the things had to be changed
for it to work in the "2K" model.

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post #175 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

After watching Shrek 4 in 3D on my JVC RS45 last night it's not just the crosstalk that is bothersome but how it handles poor motion. Pans break up the clarity and flow of the image. And after the reports and early impressions that I am reading is the reason why I am heavily leaning towards the HW50ES over the RS46 or the VW95ES. If I find black levels slightly lacking in the HW50ES there's always the ND filter route I suppose which i assume would hurt a little in a dynamic image. Oh well, most of us here will likely be considering an upgrade the following year if finances agree anyway. smile.gif

The VW95 will have similar/better perceived blacks than the RS45 from what i've read. Any reason you aren't going that route?
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post #176 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
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I would like some clarification on Kraine's lumen numbers. Sony stated a 30% increase in brightness over the HW30. The review is saying 1108 calibrated lumens in low and 1704 lumens in high? That is way more than a 30% increase. Art measured 992 calibrated lumens in high lamp mid zoom. it would be great if the projector has that much brightness, but it just does not sound correct to me.

My lumen measures of the HW30 were the same as Art's. That's does sound much higher if it's @ D65. That would make the HW50 brighter than the VW1000 in a calibrated mode.
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post #177 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

The VW95 will have similar/better perceived blacks than the RS45 from what i've read. Any reason you aren't going that route?

VW95 apparently has worse 3D crosstalk than the hw30 and almost surely than the vw50, one person even said the 95 wasn't that much better than a JVC on a new lamp as far as ghosting (a little).


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post #178 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 09:05 AM
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Cine4home reported 1400 lumens post-calibration with the lamp on high. Contrast was 6,800:1 native and 45,000:1 dynamic after calibration.
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post #179 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Yes, you can adjust the manual iris to reduce the light output.


Raine0

As Rich says ( again smile.gif ) a manual iris mode from 0 - 100
And like the 1000ES it has a "limited (auto) iris" mode too ( it dosnt close full and open full )



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post #180 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

My lumen measures of the HW30 were the same as Art's. That's does sound much higher if it's @ D65. That would make the HW50 brighter than the VW1000 in a calibrated mode.



Zombie

I did see the 50 and the 1000 on the same screen ( but sadly they was not calibreted or even adjusted correct rolleyes.gif ) but anyway they looked to have about the same brightness ( very empressive BTW ). But I did not find the motion on the 50 to be better then the 95ES ( about the same ) and clearly the 1000Es was better in motion ( I actully thought that the 1000 was in "low" motionflow mode, but it was not redface.gif )


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