OFFICIAL THREAD SONY VPL-HW50ES new SXRD Projector IFA BERLIN 2012 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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For zombie10K, the X55 (JVC) has now 5 levels of MPC (E-Shift, the pics show the different names of them). I have use the film level for the Bond Pic. My little review of the X55 will be online next week, expect some surprise especially on the Brightness level.
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post #182 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

The best 3D? Have you not messed with a DLP (BenQ 7000)? I actually feel the same about my 1000. I see no ghosting and most of the torture titles play fine. Even subtitles look great. I am embarrassed to report this but I now have about 105 3D titles. biggrin.gif Anyway, the pics posted showing some crosstalk in the 50ES thread (well, one of them) plays perfect on the 1000. smile.gif
Oh and before anyone says well it should be better for the money just remember that's not always true in life. Especially electronics... smile.gif

About 105? Did you count them three times and get a 105 plus or minus one. Be a man, take a stand. You have 105, more or less. That's about it.

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post #183 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 12:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

No, he didnt actully smile.gif - He had to make a different new one, because the RC code in the 1000ES is made in 4K scaling/ resolution - where the HW50 is done in 2K
But it is the same guy, and he have taken a lot off good things ( and experience ) from the 1000ES and put into the HW50, but some off the things had to be changed
for it to work in the "2K" model.
dj
The Japanese designer says it basically the same. Goto 6:24

I'm a software engineer. Just as the lead Sony Designer states the class which generates is Creation Reality for the 1000 and 50 "is basically the same" . The source is 2K. The upscaling to 4K is additional steps to generate three more surrounding pixels. Remember 99.9% of Sony HDTVs are 2K. Now if you want to argue further, then ring Sony.

Everyone is throwing posts out to bury the kraine's findings. I guess JVC needs all the help it can get as Reality Creation optimally improves the picture quality biggrin.gif
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post #184 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post


Everyone is throwing posts out to bury the kraine's findings. I guess JVC needs all the help it can get as Reality Creation optimally improves the picture quality biggrin.gif

Not at all. We are a Sony dealer also. I have only questioned a couple of things: one was judging that one projector was sharper than another, based on a screen shot and the second thing is the brightness numbers since they are so much higher than what others got. I like the Sony and I have always said the HW30 was a well rounded projector. The HW50 has improved contrast and brightness. It also looks like it has improved sharpness. Should make this a hot product that pleases many owners.

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post #185 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

About 105? Did you count them three times and get a 105 plus or minus one. Be a man, take a stand. You have 105, more or less. That's about it.

Dial M For Murder just showed up so now it's 106! biggrin.gifsmile.gif

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post #186 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post



I'm a software engineer. Just as the lead Sony Designer states the class which generates is Creation Reality for the 1000 and 50 "is basically the same" . The source is 2K. The upscaling to 4K is additional steps to generate three more surrounding pixels. Remember 99.9% of Sony HDTVs are 2K. Now if you want to argue further, then ring Sony.
Everyone is throwing posts out to bury the kraine's findings. I guess JVC needs all the help it can get as Reality Creation optimally improves the picture quality biggrin.gif

Im not trying to " bury Kraine's findings".
And Tak is saying that they are based on the same algorithmic, not the same,,anyway my info come from Sony themself ( not Tak, but another Japanese Sony guy smile.gif)

BTW. I actully like the RC in both the 1000 and the 50.

dj
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post #187 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

I'm a software engineer. Just as the lead Sony Designer states the class which generates is Creation Reality for the 1000 and 50 "is basically the same" . The source is 2K. The upscaling to 4K is additional steps to generate three more surrounding pixels. Remember 99.9% of Sony HDTVs are 2K. Now if you want to argue further, then ring Sony.
Everyone is throwing posts out to bury the kraine's findings. I guess JVC needs all the help it can get as Reality Creation optimally improves the picture quality biggrin.gif

This is interesting. So the Sony is upscaling to 4K ? Is this similar to eshift2 from JVC ?
I didn't hear anything about upscaling. I thought they were just adding the RC.
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post #188 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

This is interesting. So the Sony is upscaling to 4K ? Is this similar to eshift2 from JVC ?
I didn't hear anything about upscaling. I thought they were just adding the RC.

This is how rumors get started. smile.gif The above poster is talking about the 4k up scaling in the VW1000, not the HW50. The HW50 is a 2K projector.

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post #189 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

This is how rumors get started. smile.gif The above poster is talking about the 4k up scaling in the VW1000, not the HW50. The HW50 is a 2K projector.

Okay. Thanks Mike. I think I will stick to the 4810 + Darbee then.
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post #190 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

BTW. I actully like the RC in both the 1000 and the 50.
dj

I love it! At a maximum about 20 to 25 these days with Noise Filtering at 15. smile.gif

I couldn't live without it now! biggrin.gif

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post #191 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 05:31 PM
 
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Ok, the "bury" term was too superficial. Here is a more accurate representation

A common scenario at AVS is when owners of last year’s expensive gear are experiencing internal conflict of whether or not to upgrade (this holds true for anything expensive). I do understand the pain as having been through it several times myself. Now i use an alternative approach.

Slowly I've learned to stretch, optimize then be satisfied with what I decided to purchase.
For example I've perfectly calibrated the heavy skewed JVC RS1 with the latest Acer 7750 home theater video card along with the X-Rite Display Pro i3. Now each of my three systems have virtually perfect grey scale and color correction for each of the 16 million colors. The picture is awesome in every way. However, I've stopped sharing my success and enthusiasm, out of respect for others.
While I'm waiting i revisit other areas of related technology and make high value refinements and bid my time waiting for a nice projector or sound breakthrough.

For recent upgraders, the greater the technological breakthrough, the more the angst. The stress goes even higher when the new product is half the price.
Since i don't have any baggage, when a real breakthrough occurs (50ES) I’m 100% behind it, having patiently waiting for years for it to occur.
What a nice reward!
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post #192 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

The VW95 will have similar/better perceived blacks than the RS45 from what i've read. Any reason you aren't going that route?

I presently have a JVC RS45 and I am fairly content with the 2D image it throws but there's quite a bit lacking in the 3D department which is my main reason for upgrading.

I've read mixed results on the 3D of the VW95. I've recently seen several on this forum stating that crosstalk is about equal between the VW95 and the HW30ES yet giving a slight edge to the HW30ES. However, I've also read a couple of reviews stating there's a bit of crosstalk on the VW95. This has me concerned that this may differ from unit to unit and if i were to get one I'd be getting a B-stock projector.
The VW95 has lens memory and slightly better contrast vs. the HW50ES. The lens memory is nice as I have it now on my RS-45 but PQ is more important to me than a nice feature. Comparatively the HW50ES is brighter (the VW95 will be a slight downgrade compared to the RS45 in this regard) and RC sounds to be a nice upgrade from those who've actually seen it in home theater type setting. I LOVE contrast, but if the difference of the two is slight, then the benefits of the HW50 in my mind outweigh the benefits of the VW95.

Ideally I wish I could see the two in person but that will probably never happen. i might see the HW50 at BB Magnolia if by change they got one in quickly, but I'll likely never see the VW95. I'm hoping Zombie10k will get his unit quickly and can await his results before committing to one or the other but I think the lack of FI in 3D on the RS45 is going to steer me to one of the Sony units. There's just too much choppiness to motion in 3D on the JVCs after you have grown accustomed to using FI in 2D..
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post #193 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

For recent upgraders, the greater the technological breakthrough, the more the angst. The stress goes even higher when the new product is half the price.
Since i don't have any baggage, when a real breakthrough occurs (50ES) I’m 100% behind it, having patiently waiting for years for it to occur.
What a nice reward!

Why is the 50 a real breakthrough ? Just because it had a RC ? I think the Darbee is a real breakthrough as finally we have an affordable device that can add RC to any projector !
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post #194 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post


Comparatively the HW50ES is brighter (the VW95 will be a slight downgrade compared to the RS45 in this regard) and RC sounds to be a nice upgrade from those who've actually seen it in home theater type setting. I LOVE contrast, but if the difference of the two is slight, then the benefits of the HW50 in my mind outweigh the benefits of the VW95.

Ideally I wish I could see the two in person but that will probably never happen. i might see the HW50 at BB Magnolia if by change they got one in quickly, but I'll likely never see the VW95. I'm hoping Zombie10k will get his unit quickly and can await his results before committing to one or the other but I think the lack of FI in 3D on the RS45 is going to steer me to one of the Sony units. There's just too much choppiness to motion in 3D on the JVCs after you have grown accustomed to using FI in 2D..

I calibrated a VW95 a few months ago. The ghosting was more noticeable than it was on the HW30. Not a by a large amount, but enough to pick up on since i've seen enough 3D to last a lifetime. From the L/R 3D photos that Kraine posted, the HW50 looks similar in crosstalk performance compared to the HW30. I'll know for sure when I see it since I'll use all the same screenshots in the first shootout..


it's interesting how some of the members have little interest in objective comparisons. Example: the HW30 was ripped into relentlessly by some because of the inability to clearly and concisely show defined pixel structure. Yet I don't recall seeing any closeups of the HW50's pixel structure in any of the current reviews. If it doesn't resolve clearly, is that OK now for some reason?

AVS should be getting the HW50 near the end of the month. I'll start the mini shootout thread once it arrives. RC vs. E-shift 1 vs. Darbee will be one of the first deep dives. Stay tuned for some of the best, objective screenshots around. cool.gif
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post #195 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I've read mixed results on the 3D of the VW95. I've recently seen several on this forum stating that crosstalk is about equal between the VW95 and the HW30ES yet giving a slight edge to the HW30ES.

An installer/calibrator from the calibration threads PM'd me and told me that the vw95 has much more ghosting than the hw30 but it is only noticed in specific scenes, I do not know if he was right. That was about a year ago or so. The reason I bought the RS-45 was because it was an easy decision from a 2D-PQ standpoint, hence I was able to see RS-40 and RS-45's in a darkened room before I bought it and the sharpness impressed me. I owned the Sony vw70 before the RS-45 and it had sharpness issues (but it was a bad sample), so I was queezy on going with Sony. A pristine sample on the RS-40/RS-45 IMO was a huge leap in sharpness for non-DLP's for under $3000. There was no projector under $3000 that was that sharp and was not a DLP, believe me I tried to find one (I went through so many looking).

The only hit I have against the JVC's are the processing, people think it's ANSI contrast but it's not, it just needs reference level content to look its best. I often find a few movies looking better on my friend's old Mits hc4000 simply because it handles poorer signals better (although I still see rainbows). Overall I still rate the JVC's 2D image pretty much # 1 for movies due to the contrast + sharpness, but something could pass it up possibly, we'll see... I do potentially see motion blur even using 5:5 pulldown in 24p movies, but it's hard to say how much is in the source since I haven't been A/B'n projectors as much as I used to lately. If the Sony can fill in some gaps, then it becomes another hard decision. If the JVC only wins in blacks and not as much in sharpness anymore, then the Sony will be much closer IMHO and this becomes a very tough decision.


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post #196 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I calibrated a VW95 a few months ago. The ghosting was more noticeable than it was on the HW30. Not a by a large amount, but enough to pick up on since i've seen enough 3D to last a lifetime. From the L/R 3D photos that Kraine posted, the HW50 looks similar in crosstalk performance compared to the HW30. I'll know for sure when I see it since I'll use all the same screenshots in the first shootout..
it's interesting how some of the members have little interest in objective comparisons. Example: the HW30 was ripped into relentlessly by some because of the inability to clearly and concisely show defined pixel structure. Yet I don't recall seeing any closeups of the HW50's pixel structure in any of the current reviews. If it doesn't resolve clearly, is that OK now for some reason?
AVS should be getting the HW50 near the end of the month. I'll start the mini shootout thread once it arrives. RC vs. E-shift 1 vs. Darbee will be one of the first deep dives. Stay tuned for some of the best, objective screenshots around. cool.gif

Thanks Zombie! You are definitely more detailed than many of the reviews you've read and you are also more tuned in to what fellow AVS members are concerned about. Thanks for all of your unbiased contributions to our obsessions. smile.gif

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An installer/calibrator from the calibration threads PM'd me and told me that the vw95 has much more ghosting than the hw30 but it is only noticed in specific scenes, I do not know if he was right. That was about a year ago or so. The reason I bought the RS-45 was because it was an easy decision from a 2D-PQ standpoint, hence I was able to see RS-40 and RS-45's in a darkened room before I bought it and the sharpness impressed me. I owned the Sony vw70 before the RS-45 and it had sharpness issues (but it was a bad sample), so I was queezy on going with Sony. A pristine sample on the RS-40/RS-45 IMO was a huge leap in sharpness for non-DLP's for under $3000. There was no projector under $3000 that was that sharp and was not a DLP, believe me I tried to find one (I went through so many looking).
The only hit I have against the JVC's are the processing, people think it's ANSI contrast but it's not, it just needs reference level content to look its best. I often find a few movies looking better on my friend's old Mits hc4000 simply because it handles poorer signals better (although I still see rainbows). Overall I still rate the JVC's 2D image pretty much # 1 for movies due to the contrast + sharpness, but something could pass it up possibly, we'll see... I do potentially see motion blur even using 5:5 pulldown in 24p movies, but it's hard to say how much is in the source since I haven't been A/B'n projectors as much as I used to lately. If the Sony can fill in some gaps, then it becomes another hard decision. If the JVC only wins in blacks and not as much in sharpness anymore, then the Sony will be much closer IMHO and this becomes a very tough decision.

The more that I read the more I hear about the VW95 ghosting more. Maybe it's not huge but I've not read many complaints about the HW30 in this regards. I've read at least 3 reviews that complained somewhat of ghosting on the VW95 so maybe specific material ghosts more on the VW95 than the HW30 like you said. Most of my 3D titles are animated and one that was completely unwatchable on the JVC when i first bought it was The Lion King so likely I'm guessing most of my 3D collection will look noticeably better on the HW50.

The RS-45 is a fantastic 2D projector and for the price it couldn't be beat last year. The competition is catching up though and as far as the HW50 is concerned it sounds like a winner so far. Some of you guys can likely see sharpness better than I can. I'm at the age where my eyesight is diminishing a little. It was just about 4-5 years ago that i had 20/10 vision. Like has been said anytime anyone's refresh rate was at 60Hz years ago on a CRT monitor it would drive me nuts within seconds but now I'm not seeing the flickering in 3D on the JVCs like others are.
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post #197 of 302 Old 10-12-2012, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

it's interesting how some of the members have little interest in objective comparisons. Example: the HW30 was ripped into relentlessly by some because of the inability to clearly and concisely show defined pixel structure. Yet I don't recall seeing any closeups of the HW50's pixel structure in any of the current reviews. If it doesn't resolve clearly, is that OK now for some reason?

If I can help wink.gif


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post #198 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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For my point of view those kind of results are excellent for the HW50ES. smile.gif
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post #199 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 12:22 AM
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Looks pretty good but it's hard to tell. Here is my JVC RS-45 (see tip of eagle's wing below - top is DLP, bottom right is JVC RS-45)...
The tip of the eagle's black feathers are only 2 pixels wide. My PJ does show some blue convergence error on the right pattern, but in general it's miniscule.



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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Looks pretty good but it's hard to tell. Here is my JVC RS-45 (see tip of eagle's wing below - top is DLP, bottom right is JVC RS-45)...
The tip of the eagle's black feathers are only 2 pixels wide. My PJ does show some blue convergence error on the right pattern, but in general it's miniscule.


Lol no clue what im even looking at
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post #201 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Looks pretty good but it's hard to tell. Here is my JVC RS-45 (see tip of eagle's wing below - top is DLP, bottom right is JVC RS-45)...
The tip of the eagle's black feathers are only 2 pixels wide. My PJ does show some blue convergence error on the right pattern, but in general it's miniscule.
The JVC eagle has more apparent MTF contrast but it might be due to DLP eagle being larger. Like zombie always says, unless the test is completely objective (all variables are exactly the same - calibrated image brightness, color temp, size, other settings; camera shooting conditions) one can hardly draw any unbiased conclusions.
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If I can help wink.gif

Wow, the JVC has much more MTF contrast. Is this the best result you could get on HW50's convergence?
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post #202 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 03:44 AM
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The JVC eagle has more apparent MTF contrast but it might be due to DLP eagle being larger. Like zombie always says, unless the test is completely objective (all variables are exactly the same - calibrated image brightness, color temp, size, other settings; camera shooting conditions) one can hardly draw any unbiased conclusions.
Wow, the JVC has much more MTF contrast. Is this the best result you could get on HW50's convergence?

Wonder if its even improved more in this years jvc model
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post #203 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 03:47 AM
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I don't know if it's just the compression of putting the images up, but there appears to be a fine line around the images to the left: When the line is black, there is a white line to the left of it and there is a black line to the left of the white line on the pattern: Is this due to the sharpness setting (ie can it be dialed out completely at 0 for example) or something to do with the MPC?
(On the X55 picture).

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #204 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Ok, the "bury" term was too superficial. Here is a more accurate representation
A common scenario at AVS is when owners of last year’s expensive gear are experiencing internal conflict of whether or not to upgrade (this holds true for anything expensive). I do understand the pain as having been through it several times myself. Now i use an alternative approach.
Slowly I've learned to stretch, optimize then be satisfied with what I decided to purchase.
For example I've perfectly calibrated the heavy skewed JVC RS1 with the latest Acer 7750 home theater video card along with the X-Rite Display Pro i3. Now each of my three systems have virtually perfect grey scale and color correction for each of the 16 million colors. The picture is awesome in every way. However, I've stopped sharing my success and enthusiasm, out of respect for others.
While I'm waiting i revisit other areas of related technology and make high value refinements and bid my time waiting for a nice projector or sound breakthrough.
For recent upgraders, the greater the technological breakthrough, the more the angst. The stress goes even higher when the new product is half the price.
Since i don't have any baggage, when a real breakthrough occurs (50ES) I’m 100% behind it, having patiently waiting for years for it to occur.
What a nice reward!

The answer for those who bought expensive gear last year is to stop reading about the latest and greatest and enjoy what they have. Personally I don't think the Sony 50 is a "huge" breakthrough, but perhaps a nice upgrade. For those that stick with what they can purchase for $3,000 or less upgrading is easy to rationalize and if you can afford it then why not? It's the more expensive stuff that's tough to explain away, even if you're wealthy -- it makes you look dumb and that's tough on the ego. I know since I've been there and done that. At least I've learned not to do it again.
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post #205 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 05:48 AM
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So should I be trading out my Sony 1000ES for the 50ES? eek.gif
biggrin.gif

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post #206 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

So should I be trading out my Sony 1000ES for the 50ES? eek.gif
biggrin.gif

LOL biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #207 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 06:19 AM
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So should I be trading out my Sony 1000ES for the 50ES? eek.gif
biggrin.gif

Yes ! And thats no joke.

So I will sacrifice myself and give you my HW50 in exchange for your VW1000 tongue.gif
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post #208 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

The JVC eagle has more apparent MTF contrast but it might be due to DLP eagle being larger. Like zombie always says, unless the test is completely objective (all variables are exactly the same - calibrated image brightness, color temp, size, other settings; camera shooting conditions) one can hardly draw any unbiased conclusions.

There is no more objective photo than the method I used for this. The images were overlapped and taken in one camera shot (that is a single photo - not 2), the photo was taken so close to the screen that camera lens variables were eliminated. The DLP I used has a pixel mapping issue (I was using the pic to partly show how pixel mapping affects sharpness close to the screen).


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post #209 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I presently have a JVC RS45 and I am fairly content with the 2D image it throws but there's quite a bit lacking in the 3D department which is my main reason for upgrading.
I've read mixed results on the 3D of the VW95. I've recently seen several on this forum stating that crosstalk is about equal between the VW95 and the HW30ES yet giving a slight edge to the HW30ES. However, I've also read a couple of reviews stating there's a bit of crosstalk on the VW95. This has me concerned that this may differ from unit to unit and if i were to get one I'd be getting a B-stock projector.
The VW95 has lens memory and slightly better contrast vs. the HW50ES. The lens memory is nice as I have it now on my RS-45 but PQ is more important to me than a nice feature. Comparatively the HW50ES is brighter (the VW95 will be a slight downgrade compared to the RS45 in this regard) and RC sounds to be a nice upgrade from those who've actually seen it in home theater type setting. I LOVE contrast, but if the difference of the two is slight, then the benefits of the HW50 in my mind outweigh the benefits of the VW95.
Ideally I wish I could see the two in person but that will probably never happen. i might see the HW50 at BB Magnolia if by change they got one in quickly, but I'll likely never see the VW95. I'm hoping Zombie10k will get his unit quickly and can await his results before committing to one or the other but I think the lack of FI in 3D on the RS45 is going to steer me to one of the Sony units. There's just too much choppiness to motion in 3D on the JVCs after you have grown accustomed to using FI in 2D..


Fairly content? There is no such thing! If you are fairly content, it means at the least that you are harboring latent discontent God forbid if this morphs into patent discontent. Hope you find a cure. smile.gif

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post #210 of 302 Old 10-13-2012, 10:09 AM
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I do think the 30 and 95 has same amount off ghosting, but because off the better black level, dynamic/ contrast in the picture and the sharpere lens you can see the ghosting a little better on the 95.

And yes - had both at same time, at same screen , both calibrated and the same eyes wink.gif ,same day, same breakfeast and so on. wink.gif

Would I drop my 95 for a 50Es ....NO, ( i do need the memory settings, the motorized focus, lens shift and zoom and in generel I still feel the 95 is a more "refined" projector and everything is just working a little more "stable and yes I still mean the lens is sharpere and more uniform and the black level bettere. )

Would I have liked to get the light output the 5o have and the RC put into the 95........hell yes ( the 50 3D was very impressing and the light output too )

Have I regretted ,that I buyed the 95 ?.......... NOT FOR A SECOND ! in my book it is still the most complete and troublefree high picture quality allround projector on the marked for a " normal" price.

Is the 1000ES 6 times better then the 50.( here the 1000 cost 6 times the 50 price eek.gif ) absolutly NOT !

Do I still consider the 1000ES ........ohh yes redface.gif ( only other solution for me would be to waite on a new hybrid off the 95 and the 1000ES wich probely come in 6 - 18 month - can I waite ? probely not redface.gif
Should I .....probely yes frown.gif

Just thinking loud here biggrin.gif

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