mitsubishi hc9000d or jvc rs40? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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coming from a samsung sp-a800b and wanting more contrast/ better black levels, which one is the better projector of the two?
My last pj beforre the samsung was a sony g70 crt projector.

thanks
ed
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post #2 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 08:06 AM
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They are pretty close, give AVS a call as they have seen both and each projector has slightly different strengths, but I'd venture to say from what I've read the JVC and Mits are closer than most projectors are. The Mits wins in motion, JVC in contrast slightly. I own the RS-45, but never seen the Mits.

The RS-40 B-stock is probably a lot cheaper though, so have to consider that as well.


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post #3 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 08:21 AM
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May i ask why the RS40 and not RS45? The RS45 and 9000 are more comparable in tech specs and now in price.
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post #4 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticalJet View Post

May i ask why the RS40 and not RS45? The RS45 and 9000 are more comparable in tech specs and now in price.

I had a Samsung A900B and now have a RS40. I, like Coderguy, haven't seen the Mitsubishi but the RS40/45 will kill the Samsung in the contrast, black level, and even brightness(provided you have no bulb issues). I would check with AV Science to see if they still have any B-stock JVC's and ask them their opinion on the differences vs. the Mitsubishi. They won't steer you wrong.

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post #5 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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40 instead of 45 because of price
9000 over 45 because of lens and features
40 over 9000 because is almost 1/2 price and maybe better contrast (don't care for DI)
looking to buy whichever from AVS of course
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post #6 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 10:38 AM
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I am in a similar quandary. Debating to upgrade my beloved RS10. Would guess it's blacks are similar to the 9000 and slightly less than the 40/45. I demo'd a 45 for parts of Avatar and the pq was very similar to my 10. Motion was better though - at least on Avatar. Black level difference did not stand out and I have never felt like I needed better blacks, even in more black intensive movies (AVP Req etc).

I still hear members lamenting motion on new 45's and 55's - compared to Sony - so really makes me wonder how the overall competency is on the jvc's for motion? (granted, I also read Sony owners wishing for better black levels for new releases smile.gif)

I think the difference between the 40 and 9000 boils down to how much you value motion, and how long you plan to keep the pj. How much do you value the financial flexability of paying $1000+ less up front. In a year or two the 40 and 9000 will probably be A LOT closer in resale price and you can sell the 40 without losing too much. If you normally keep your gear 3-5 years it may be worth the extra money up front for a more bulletproof presentation over the lifespan. My .02

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post #7 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 01:08 PM
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I called Mike Garrett (sp? #5) yesterday; they do have the RS40-B in stock.
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post #8 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonbud0 View Post

I called Mike Garrett (sp? #5) yesterday; they do have the RS40-B in stock.

You should have told me your AVS name. smile.gif Did not know it was you that i was talking to.

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post #9 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

coming from a samsung sp-a800b and wanting more contrast/ better black levels, which one is the better projector of the two?
My last pj beforre the samsung was a sony g70 crt projector.
thanks
ed

I switched from the RS20 / HD750 to the HC9000.
Before purchase I did sample the RS40 / X3 and the Sony VW90. Liked the Sony, but it was too expensive and a little too dim for my screen.

Compared to the RS20/RS40 the HC9000 is roughly 200 Lumens brighter.
The black level without iris is not as good though, but is suffices. I would say is on the level of the RS1 which I had before, around ~15.000:1
The automatic iris of the HC9000 is crap, much too slow and too loud. I don't use it and except for the most dark of scenes I do not feel I am missing something.

The motion handling of the HC9000 is ok when you use the FI on true movie. It is nearly free of soap effect and artifacts.
Motion handling on the RS20 was bad, sadly.
I did not feel that the RS40 was really better. And the FI showed more artifacts.

Also the HC9000 is free of the solarisation/banding artifacts and the color-shifting-on-moving-high-contrast-objects artifacts that plagued the RS20.
I am not sure that those are gone completely from the RS40.

3D on the HC9000 is ok, but it suffers from ghosting and the obvious brightness loss. The RS40 does not do it better. At least on the HC9000 you have some control
over brighntess vs. ghosting settings, so you can pick your poison.
The RS45, that I saw recently, seemed to have a brighter 3D image, but it also did have that annyoing (48Hz?) flicker.

After having lamp trouble with my two former JVCs I am happy that the HC9000 is still doing strong after 800+ hours. No lamp in my former JVCs ever lasted that long due to
brightness loss.

So I'd say if you get the HC9000 for a competitive price and you are not an absolute black level junkie, go for it.
Be advised that there is the "advanced" upgrade for the HC9000, though. This version has the fixed CMS and also FI for 3D viewing.
If you are very picky about color performance and want to calibrate it yourself, then you might not want the old non-A version.
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post #10 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 03:43 PM
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Thanks for the info in that post, but just as an FYI to others, there are no concerns about banding on the newer JVC's. I have seen quite a few measured lumens for the Mits 9000d vs. the RS-40/45, the RS-45 is brighter slightly but they are close enough to where it could potentially go either way after just a little lamp wear.

I also would be very suprised if the Mits is sharper than the JVC. If the MIts is any sharper, it won't be by much. I think for sharpness, individual convergence luck is going to matter more than a lens vs. lens debate.

I will stick to these points:

JVC = Better Contrast
Mits = Better Motion
3D = Both aren't that good
Poorer Sources = Mits

It is a close call IMO between these 2 units from what I've heard from the calibrators that have calibrated both, but I'd personally lean towards the JVC due to contrast, but that doesn't mean that's what you should do. Give Mike a call as he cannot say which one he thinks is better in the forums but he will tell you on the phone (it will depend on individual needs/preferences). So ultimately just whatever he says is your best bet. I've never seen it as I noted, but I have read a lot on the projector. Both are very good projectors (JVC vs. Mits).


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post #11 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 06:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozoppo View Post

I switched from the RS20 / HD750 to the HC9000.
Before purchase I did sample the RS40 / X3 and the Sony VW90. Liked the Sony, but it was too expensive and a little too dim for my screen.
Compared to the RS20/RS40 the HC9000 is roughly 200 Lumens brighter.
The black level without iris is not as good though, but is suffices. I would say is on the level of the RS1 which I had before, around ~15.000:1
The automatic iris of the HC9000 is crap, much too slow and too loud. I don't use it and except for the most dark of scenes I do not feel I am missing something.
The motion handling of the HC9000 is ok when you use the FI on true movie. It is nearly free of soap effect and artifacts.
Motion handling on the RS20 was bad, sadly.
I did not feel that the RS40 was really better. And the FI showed more artifacts.
Also the HC9000 is free of the solarisation/banding artifacts and the color-shifting-on-moving-high-contrast-objects artifacts that plagued the RS20.
I am not sure that those are gone completely from the RS40.
3D on the HC9000 is ok, but it suffers from ghosting and the obvious brightness loss. The RS40 does not do it better. At least on the HC9000 you have some control
over brighntess vs. ghosting settings, so you can pick your poison.
The RS45, that I saw recently, seemed to have a brighter 3D image, but it also did have that annyoing (48Hz?) flicker.
After having lamp trouble with my two former JVCs I am happy that the HC9000 is still doing strong after 800+ hours. No lamp in my former JVCs ever lasted that long due to
brightness loss.
So I'd say if you get the HC9000 for a competitive price and you are not an absolute black level junkie, go for it.
Be advised that there is the "advanced" upgrade for the HC9000, though. This version has the fixed CMS and also FI for 3D viewing.
If you are very picky about color performance and want to calibrate it yourself, then you might not want the old non-A version.


They A version is what Mits is shipping. They upgraded early non A adopters for free but the non A had to be shipped to CA for the retrofit.
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post #12 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 06:25 PM
 
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Coderguy. Do not read anything into this statement, but you can't compare the sharpness of the mits to the JVC if you haven't seen the Mits. I have and had one of each in my home theater at the same time. For my comments re comparative sharpness, one will have to call me.


y
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post #13 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 06:34 PM
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If you had 5 at the same time, I would put more weight on an assessment then just comparing one LCOS to another. I usually get my info from calibrators, threads in this forum, and review sites, and seeing things first-hand when I can (just couldn't on the Mits), then I average it out and make the call. I did not consider the Runco's to be hugely sharper than a well-converged JVC (but a Runco is sharper), and the Mits is not as sharp as a Runco according to calibrators. I know people that have seen both and there are many forum posts about it, and I have read all the posts. You have read them too. Convergence luck is where it is at.. There is a huge unit-to-unit variance on NON-DLP's, so I wouldn't put as much weight on that single factor, but if some wants to I'm not going to argue further.

Here is what Art said:

"Nothing with 3 panels, of late, has looked as good as JVC's $12K RS60, but, that aside, the Mitsubishi looks very crisp and clear. It's still not going to appear quite as sharp and crisp as a comparably well done, single chip DLP like the competing Runco LS5 we reviewed not long ago."


Reviewers get sharpness wrong all the time because you have to see so many samples and not a cherry-picked one. Have to bet on the averages, even seeing 3 units doesn't tell you which one is sharper, if you get a sample of 5 you are getting slightly more accurate and have a better probability of being correct (but even that is not even nearly 90% certainty).

From what I've read and heard first hand, I would push the cleanliness and better processing and better motion, which is where most Mits should really beat a JVC in a notable fashion. Sometimes projectors appear sharper in some content because of the way they process it rather than purely an intrinsic sharpness advantage (cleaner often looks sharper).


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post #14 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 09:06 PM
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Coderguy,

What is your opinion on the mits9000 vs. the 6010? I have asked for this comparison on several occasions and had some replies. I am still teying to decide on which of the two to upgrade to. Setup is living room eith blackout curtains. Use is gaming,movies,tv. Primarily 2D, 3D on occasion for kicks.
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post #15 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawie01 View Post

Coderguy,
What is your opinion on the mits9000 vs. the 6010? I have asked for this comparison on several occasions and had some replies. I am still teying to decide on which of the two to upgrade to. Setup is living room eith blackout curtains. Use is gaming,movies,tv. Primarily 2D, 3D on occasion for kicks.

Not Coderguy, but you can look for posts comparing the 5010 to the Mits and find your answer. The 6010 and 5010 have identical performance. Keep in mind the Mits was not built at the same price point as the Epson. Two different classes of projectors. Still would need to know more info to determine which would be better fit for your situation. Best if you shot us an email or called for that info.

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post #16 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 09:15 PM
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The Mits is better except at 3D (again from what others have said in this forum and from my own LCOS experiences). I have seen the Epson 5010 and I own the RS-45 (among others).
There are quite a few comparisons in the threads, but some of those are also BIAS'd because they are from die-hard owners.

The Epson does have a light canon mode which the Mits lacks.

I would say that a good LCOS projector is better at 2D than an LCD because of pixel fill and a few other reasons (LCOS just produces a more consistent image).
Some may see it differently, but after all we are just giving opinions here. It's not like someone can give an absolute opinion and we all fall into place. So all I can do is base it on averages, and most people prefer LCOS over LCD for 2D (most seasoned owners anyhow), you will find some that prefer the Epson over an LCOS (but it is not the average). I will say that I've seen an LCD pop more than an LCOS on certain types of scenes, but the LCOS is more film-like and more consistent. It just looks smoother, plus the Mits and JVC are both sharper than the Epson (just a little). It's hard for me to say things sometimes because I know it can offend people, but in all reality most of these projectors are CLOSER to each other than what reviews lead people to believe. Most of us just pick apart projectors to the point of insanity and some may not even be able to tell.

I should probably find a more productive way to spend my time :O


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post #17 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 09:23 PM
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Mike and Coderguy thank you,

My question was open to any. I will call perhaps tomorrow when your shop is open and give you a layout of my livingroom. Btw bulb cost is a major factor, what is the cost of each bulb for both pjs?
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post #18 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 09:38 PM
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I doubt anyone that buys any of these would feel they made a mistake in the end. Projectors have come so far in the past 5 years on things like sharpness (luckily), that it really does get to the point of splitting hairs on some of these comparisons.

There is a point to sharpness where I think small improvements don't matter as much anymore, that is right where a well-converged JVC falls for me, but some may see it differently (but so far people have been very surprised in my theater that have seen the JVC in HTPC that a projector can even be that sharp on text at all). Still, convergence luck is huge for that last OUNCE of sharpness, and I've been drowned by convergence many times on lower-end units. The more expensive projectors have tighter tolerances for convergence for sure, so it increases the odds of getting a good one, but it does not 100% guarantee it.


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post #19 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 09:43 PM
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Sometimes i do feel like i am splitting hairs. But i feel that with the Mits original high price, i would be missing something If I went with the 5010/ 6010. Was the Mits way over priced to begin with?
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post #20 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 09:53 PM
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I think the correct price would be where the market moves it in the end, but the Mits did take a hit for it's 3D not being as solid as some, which is probably partly why the price fell.


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post #21 of 23 Old 07-25-2012, 11:03 PM
 
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I agree that a single chip DLP with a really good lens is the sharpest one can get in the normal consumer price classes. I have owned and sold the LS Runcos and for many years I owned a Samsung SP-A900B, a DLP single chipper sharper than the Runcos because it has a better lens than the Runcos. Not a lot better, but better and sharper. I have done a bit of work on MTF evaluations of the sharpness of entire optical blocks including the lens as part of the block.
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post #22 of 23 Old 07-27-2012, 09:55 AM
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Also if you play video games the Mits has a very low input lag. The JVC and Epsons are over 80ms delay. This was the deciding factor for me so I went with the Mits from Mike. The mits is now 2 almost years old so the price needed to come down to make it more comparable to the newer gen projectors.

Since you are looking at the 5k price range you should look at the Sony HW95 but most people say the small improvement in PQ doesn't warrant the price.
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post #23 of 23 Old 07-28-2012, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdamp View Post

Also if you play video games the Mits has a very low input lag. The JVC and Epsons are over 80ms delay. This was the deciding factor for me so I went with the Mits from Mike. The mits is now 2 almost years old so the price needed to come down to make it more comparable to the newer gen projectors.
Since you are looking at the 5k price range you should look at the Sony HW95 but most people say the small improvement in PQ doesn't warrant the price.

Here, I will make you feel even a little better. Mits is only about 18 months old. First started shipping in January of 2011. smile.gif

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