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post #1 of 13 Old 08-05-2012, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone,

I'm totally new to the projector world as I have never used one, I currently own a 50" 9G Kuro and plan to upgrade when the new generation of video game consoles are released (mid 2013 to early 2014 at most). It seems that there aren't any flat panels out there right now that clearly beats the 9G Kuro in terms of PQ and I wouldn't want to upgrade to something that's only larger without real PQ improvement (50" is so small to me right now, I want my next display to be 65-70" at least, 100"+ if it's a projector).

So I'd appreciate if if you could guys could answer a couple of questions:

1- Which projector models offer a clearly better PQ than the 9G Kuro (whether more than $3000 or less)? Specially when it comes to blacks which I think even the Kuro could use some work during low contrast scenes.

2- From what I've read about projectors, a lot of them seem to have quite a bit of latency (input lag, measured by milliseconds) producing the picture and that's really bad for gaming, are there any known projector models that don't cause a lot of lag when playing video games on it? For example if it has a "Game" mode that would lower the picture processing to reduce the lag.

KRP-500M | Kuro 9G 5020FD + e-lite mod | B&W 683 Fronts | B&W 685 Center | B&W DM601 S3 Rears | HSU VTF3 MK3 Sub | Yamaha RX-V663 AVR
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post #2 of 13 Old 08-05-2012, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone.. ?

KRP-500M | Kuro 9G 5020FD + e-lite mod | B&W 683 Fronts | B&W 685 Center | B&W DM601 S3 Rears | HSU VTF3 MK3 Sub | Yamaha RX-V663 AVR
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post #3 of 13 Old 08-05-2012, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

Hello everyone,
I'm totally new to the projector world as I have never used one, I currently own a 50" 9G Kuro and plan to upgrade when the new generation of video game consoles are released (mid 2013 to early 2014 at most). It seems that there aren't any flat panels out there right now that clearly beats the 9G Kuro in terms of PQ and I wouldn't want to upgrade to something that's only larger without real PQ improvement (50" is so small to me right now, I want my next display to be 65-70" at least, 100"+ if it's a projector).
So I'd appreciate if if you could guys could answer a couple of questions:
1- Which projector models offer a clearly better PQ than the 9G Kuro (whether more than $3000 or less)? Specially when it comes to blacks which I think even the Kuro could use some work during low contrast scenes.
2- From what I've read about projectors, a lot of them seem to have quite a bit of latency (input lag, measured by milliseconds) producing the picture and that's really bad for gaming, are there any known projector models that don't cause a lot of lag when playing video games on it? For example if it has a "Game" mode that would lower the picture processing to reduce the lag.

None of them are going to beat the black levels of the Kuro. What you get with a projector and a good room is an image that can rival the Kuro, but at a much larger size. I think my projector image competes very well against a Kuro, but I have an all black room, JVC projector and a Darbee. I am looking at a 60" Kuro as I am typing this, so I know exactly what a Kuro image looks like. Now the problem for you, the projectors that can provide the best black levels have more lag than you are going to want for gaming.

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post #4 of 13 Old 08-06-2012, 01:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot for replying,

So would you say a JVC RS-55 + Darbee (I'm looking into this, never heard about it before) provides one of the best images a projector can produce that's close to the Kuro's PQ but a lot bigger? Which screen do you use btw? Because at the moment the only option that's worth considering for me from flat panels is the Elite 70" which costs a LOT, so thought why not go down the projector route if I'm going to spend that amount of money anyway.


As for the input lag, were there any real measurements taken so I'd have an idea about how bad is it? for example is it like 50-70ms or 150ms+.

KRP-500M | Kuro 9G 5020FD + e-lite mod | B&W 683 Fronts | B&W 685 Center | B&W DM601 S3 Rears | HSU VTF3 MK3 Sub | Yamaha RX-V663 AVR
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post #5 of 13 Old 08-06-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

Thanks a lot for replying,
So would you say a JVC RS-55 + Darbee (I'm looking into this, never heard about it before) provides one of the best images a projector can produce that's close to the Kuro's PQ but a lot bigger? Which screen do you use btw? Because at the moment the only option that's worth considering for me from flat panels is the Elite 70" which costs a LOT, so thought why not go down the projector route if I'm going to spend that amount of money anyway.
As for the input lag, were there any real measurements taken so I'd have an idea about how bad is it? for example is it like 50-70ms or 150ms+.

The RS55 and Darbee will give you a fantastic image with excellent black levels if your room is set up correctly. You have to have full light control with light absorbing walls, floor and ceiling. As for screen, would need to know what size you are thinking about to help narrow down what would work for you. I use a 9' wide scope AT screen with EN4K fabric. The lag on the RS45 is around 80ms. Not sure what the lag is with the RS55. it will probably be around the same or a little better. If you would like to discuss this more in depth, give us a call.

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post #6 of 13 Old 08-06-2012, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again for replying!

I still haven't decided about which technology I'll go with since I have some time before making a final decision in 2013, but projectors are very tempting. I think I'll most probably go with a 120" for my first screen if I went down that route.

Do you guys ship internationally btw? I live in Bahrain, if I made an order it'll probably be for 2 of each (one's for my friend, I bought 2 Kuros in 2008 from Roman (he was one of the Sponsors here back then). I do have an address in NY11413 provided by a third party courier if you don't ship internationally though so I can still make an order and have it shipped to that address.

One final question (sorry I troubled you so much), about the Darbee Darblet DVP5000, would it be a good upgrade for my Kuro or does it only work Very well and make a difference with projectors?

KRP-500M | Kuro 9G 5020FD + e-lite mod | B&W 683 Fronts | B&W 685 Center | B&W DM601 S3 Rears | HSU VTF3 MK3 Sub | Yamaha RX-V663 AVR
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post #7 of 13 Old 08-11-2012, 04:38 PM
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I game with my Wii and PS3 on my 1080p JVC RS2 (a few years old now... but still a fantastic 2D image for the price I paid which was around $3300). The lag time hasn't been an issue for me *I don't think*. I say that because I haven't really compared playing the same games on a "game mode" flat-screen to compare... but I'll being doing that soon now that I have a 55" Samsung 3D set in the living room.

The JVC RS2 crushes blacks a bit, though the overall contrast/black level is impressive doesn't leave one feeling short-changed. However, I can see more gray-scale subtle variation when sample games on the Samsung direct-view. But the size and scale of the 1080p projection really take gaming to a whole new level. Yes, you feel that you are "in" boss fights and the environments... but the downside is that it can take a while to adapt to get over motion-sickness. I kid-you-not: when I first started playing Twilight Princess on the projector, I was nausiated and felt physically ill from time to time from the visual motion with the camera moving all around. FPS are the worst... I had to be careful playing Portal to keep from feeling sick. One trick is if I start to get "motion sickness" from a particular game or scene, I found that moving my seating position back slightly would often solve the problem. And then I could move closer again for "slower paced scenes".

but beware... you'll burn serious bulb hours gaming on your projector! Oh for LED/Laser PJs to make our dreams come true... where are you?

I also found that for SD games (wii) even with the lack of absoluton resolution the big picture is so satisfying. But for native HD games (GOW III in native 1080p) OMG... they are stunning.

My new passion is 3D gaming (and just about 3D anything as long as it's native) so my Samsung will be fun to experience something new with while I rennovate the HT room and the projector is off-line for a while. But the next PJ will be 3D for sure... if I could get "perfect" 3D that's bright, easy-on-the-eyes (passive?) and with no real cross-talk, I'd be in heaven. I keep hoping by the time the HT room is done (year?) that 3D home projectors have crossed a new threshold. What I see in 3D with the Samsung comes really close to perfect (active shutter though). If a 3D PJ manufacturer would really take getting 3D right I'd step up and make a purchase.

Oh... screen material... be careful not to get a screen that's too "grainy" or with too much "sparkle". I'm amazed by folks who get PJs with good optics, panel-alignment and 1080p resolution, and then have screens that obscure fine detail because of surface texture and grain. WHen I took my friend's RS2 and tested it out on my hipower dalite screen, I was *amazed* how much more detailed it looked when there was a smooth reflective screen material at work rather than his $$$ angular-reflective screen that imparted a grainer signature. Same thing at the house where I bought my PJ from... his $$$ screen looked positively blurry next to the hipower merely because of his screen's grain-structure. Nobody seems to talk about this but I consider it to play a big part in final image resolution.

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post #8 of 13 Old 08-11-2012, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

I game with my Wii and PS3 on my 1080p JVC RS2 (a few years old now... but still a fantastic 2D image for the price I paid which was around $3300). The lag time hasn't been an issue for me *I don't think*. I say that because I haven't really compared playing the same games on a "game mode" flat-screen to compare... but I'll being doing that soon now that I have a 55" Samsung 3D set in the living room.
The JVC RS2 crushes blacks a bit, though the overall contrast/black level is impressive doesn't leave one feeling short-changed. However, I can see more gray-scale subtle variation when sample games on the Samsung direct-view. But the size and scale of the 1080p projection really take gaming to a whole new level. Yes, you feel that you are "in" boss fights and the environments... but the downside is that it can take a while to adapt to get over motion-sickness. I kid-you-not: when I first started playing Twilight Princess on the projector, I was nausiated and felt physically ill from time to time from the visual motion with the camera moving all around. FPS are the worst... I had to be careful playing Portal to keep from feeling sick. One trick is if I start to get "motion sickness" from a particular game or scene, I found that moving my seating position back slightly would often solve the problem. And then I could move closer again for "slower paced scenes".
but beware... you'll burn serious bulb hours gaming on your projector! Oh for LED/Laser PJs to make our dreams come true... where are you?
I also found that for SD games (wii) even with the lack of absoluton resolution the big picture is so satisfying. But for native HD games (GOW III in native 1080p) OMG... they are stunning.
My new passion is 3D gaming (and just about 3D anything as long as it's native) so my Samsung will be fun to experience something new with while I rennovate the HT room and the projector is off-line for a while. But the next PJ will be 3D for sure... if I could get "perfect" 3D that's bright, easy-on-the-eyes (passive?) and with no real cross-talk, I'd be in heaven. I keep hoping by the time the HT room is done (year?) that 3D home projectors have crossed a new threshold. What I see in 3D with the Samsung comes really close to perfect (active shutter though). If a 3D PJ manufacturer would really take getting 3D right I'd step up and make a purchase.
Oh... screen material... be careful not to get a screen that's too "grainy" or with too much "sparkle". I'm amazed by folks who get PJs with good optics, panel-alignment and 1080p resolution, and then have screens that obscure fine detail because of surface texture and grain. WHen I took my friend's RS2 and tested it out on my hipower dalite screen, I was *amazed* how much more detailed it looked when there was a smooth reflective screen material at work rather than his $$$ angular-reflective screen that imparted a grainer signature. Same thing at the house where I bought my PJ from... his $$$ screen looked positively blurry next to the hipower merely because of his screen's grain-structure. Nobody seems to talk about this but I consider it to play a big part in final image resolution.
Thank you so much for the helpful info! I was just worried that lag would be too much even for regular games, I plan to play lag sensitive games (such as fighting games e.g SFIV) on my ASUS monitor that has less than a frame of lag anyway, as long as regular games such as RPGs or action/adventure won't be sluggish on a projector it'd be fine, I just wish there was more testing on this subject to have some ms numbers to compare.

I feel playing next gen games on a projector will be so much than what the current gen offers (mostly upscaled resolutions instead of native), if I had to buy a display today it'd be either a 70" Elite or a projector setup, I have around a year and a bit to see what comes around in the display world before the next gen of consoles are released so I'd make a final decision.

KRP-500M | Kuro 9G 5020FD + e-lite mod | B&W 683 Fronts | B&W 685 Center | B&W DM601 S3 Rears | HSU VTF3 MK3 Sub | Yamaha RX-V663 AVR
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post #9 of 13 Old 08-11-2012, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicaband View Post

Thank you so much for the helpful info! I was just worried that lag would be too much even for regular games, I plan to play lag sensitive games (such as fighting games e.g SFIV) on my ASUS monitor that has less than a frame of lag anyway, as long as regular games such as RPGs or action/adventure won't be sluggish on a projector it'd be fine, I just wish there was more testing on this subject to have some ms numbers to compare.
I feel playing next gen games on a projector will be so much than what the current gen offers (mostly upscaled resolutions instead of native), if I had to buy a display today it'd be either a 70" Elite or a projector setup, I have around a year and a bit to see what comes around in the display world before the next gen of consoles are released so I'd make a final decision.

I put around 300 hours onto my RS45 with the game SSX, and then moved my console upstairs onto the Panny plasma I have which has better lag time according to the numbers I have seen. Subjectively, I could tell a slight difference in favor of the Panny, and all my personal best scores/times went up as well I am assuming since the game play was more responsive. Is this all placebo? Maybe, I dont know, but it sure seems a bit too ironic in my mind. I was actually a bit surprised by this since I figured 80ms of lag which is what the newer JVCs are clocking in at was not enough to matter, but that does not seem to be the case. If you are a serious gamer, I would be hesitant to go with a JVC. Casual gamers are fine IMO, but if gaming is really important to you I would look elsewhere. As great as playing SSX is in my HT, I wont play on anything but my plasma now until/if I get a projector with better lag performance.

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post #10 of 13 Old 08-11-2012, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your input, sluggish gaming is not an option for me unfortunately, for example I can't stand playing on my Kuro using the Movie mode because it lags a lot compared to the game mode with game pref on.

Maybe someone should start an official projector input lag thread? I would but I don't have a projector so it would be a bit lame lol, both plasma and LCD forums have their own input lag threads, seeing how huge gaming is these days in the entertainment business (I'd say they're even equal to movies now IMO), it deserves a thread so we can compare the performance of different projectors when it comes to gaming.

Just in-case some don't know what input lag is, it's the delay between the image the console is producing and the image that the display shows, the more picture enhancement processing is involved > usually leads to more delay.

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post #11 of 13 Old 08-12-2012, 09:53 AM
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If you're a serious game player (multiplayer online), you won't be happy with most Projectors. I don't play games in my HT, but from what I've read, the Sony VPL-HW30 has very good lag time numbers (30 ms in Gaming mode) and their lamps are cheap. Hence, they're good gamimg projectors. They also put out very decent 2D and 3D pictures, so might be your best overall PJ to consider. Search around and read more about them. And since you're not looking to purchase until 2013, they will be a new crop of projectors and displays out then. You can choose from one of them or expect a nice discount on this year's models.

I have a Sony LCD and the Darbee does provide some improvement if set correctly (around 40-45) without introducing artifacts and is worth the low price. Make sure you get one with the latest firmware since it is not field upgradable and you're located in Bahrain. I'd pick one up now and enjoy it with your Kuro while waiting on a projector next year.

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post #12 of 13 Old 08-12-2012, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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That thread was very useful, thanks! I still aim for an excellent PQ so I'm not sure how that Sony compares to the JVC model mentioned earlier, bad contrast for example is one of the worst things in an image for me, will definitely lookup some reviews though.

Yeah I'll probably pickup a Darbee soon and make sure it comes with the latest or most stable firmware, it does seem to do a very good job specially for the price.

KRP-500M | Kuro 9G 5020FD + e-lite mod | B&W 683 Fronts | B&W 685 Center | B&W DM601 S3 Rears | HSU VTF3 MK3 Sub | Yamaha RX-V663 AVR
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post #13 of 13 Old 08-13-2012, 03:09 PM
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I have had a RS1, RS10, RS25, and now a RS45 and have never noticed any lag when playing BF3 online. That's not to say there isn't any, but I've played on plasmas and DLP projectors alike and have never noticed any. I play shooters on xbox live almost exclusively.

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