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post #61 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

In closing, so many people discussing this in the forums have never owned a JVC and have too strong of an opinion for a PJ they have never owned (although a few of you have), I'm just speaking from my own experiences being an owner. I've got 600 hours on my JVC and I don't think it's perfect by any stretch, I've A/B'd the JVC against others. They all have weaknesses, including $20,000 DLP's.
In the end it is personal preference, but unfortunately you really have to own multiple projectors to cover all the bases (DLP & LCOS).

The exact same thing can be said about you though. You've never owned DLP based projector with the larger DMD and yet you comment on them like you have. From my experience owing projectors with both DLP DMD sizes (2 of each), four different LCD based projectors, and 2 different LCOS based projectors I've come to the conclusion that each technology has its strengths and someone's choice on which projector to buy comes down to which strength they find most appealing. The larger DMD projectors have much better native contrast than the smaller ones. Paired with a good dynamic iris I just don't see how LCOS's major strength can simply wipe clean the longer list of strengths these DLP's have. It's like what I wrote in my signature. Once you reach that point other things should be waaaay more important.

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post #62 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 02:23 PM
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Most of us prefer buying new and we're not going to pay that much for a used DLP. IRIS blacks are about half of what Native On/Off blacks are as far as in terms of where the "temporary" black floor lies when there are brighter pixels mixed within the image (you generally need double contrast on the 1/2 to 1 second IRIS full black measurement to even nearly match the black floor differential of the Native on/off blacks, but even then it still doesn't match the intrascene contrast in the dark scene since a DI mostly changes the brightness of an image and not much else). The DLP will do ok in black level stuff, but it still is a weakness.

A Sony LCOS is even behind a JVC in black levels by a decent amount, but the Sony is better than a DLP at this.

When I post, I am trying to speak to the majority. You're right I cannot really for sure say that some $20,000+ DLP does not do blacks well enough to please me, it might very well, I don't know because when I saw them it wasn't in a perfect room or in my own home, but from what I saw it didn't look that close to a JVC's black levels. Let's just bring the RS-65 into it since new this is still cheaper than most DLP's you guys have, and there is no way a DLP can even touch that.


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post #63 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 02:49 PM
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I'm not talking about any projector that is more than $10K new. Both the LS-3 and LS-5 can be had for under $6000. Even my PD8150 back in the day sold for under $6000. Also you're still missing my point. Unless all you care about are the blackest of the black there isn't a need to go for a JVC. My point is that there are so many other very high contrast projectors that give you deep enough black level that 90% of buyers will be happy. In this category you can include LCD projectors as well. You make it seem like black level performance is the only thing to take into consideration when there are SO many other things that make up the projected image. DLP generally destroys the LCOS market in brightness, motion, and sharpness.

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post #64 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 03:02 PM
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I do qualify myself and say for movies from a Bluray source, I'm not speaking all viewing, I agree the DLP often beats the JVC at other types of viewing.
I can go back to StarPower in Dallas and go look again, I think they had the LS-5, if they'll play my own Bluray disk this time. The Runco is 750 lumens or less post-calibration according to ART @ PJR, the JVC RS-45 is 900, the RS-55/65 are around 800. Brightness, scratch that one. So for me that leaves motion and the handling of poorer sources, maybe sharpness a little since with a 1-chip you don't ahve to worry about convergence (but with a well converged JVC, not too worried about sharpness).

Movies are 24fps for now (maybe 48 eventually), and DLP motion only helps a little with this, not that much. DLP motion is more important at higher frame-rates.
The JVC can maintain a much higher native on/off in its brighter modes. The native on/off doesn't just affect black levels, it also affects the perception of color pop even on scenes that aren't fully dark and affects how you can design your gamma curve.

For movies, I still think the JVC RS-45 is a better deal at half the price (you still have enough left over to buy a cheaper DLP to go with it), but since I don't own the RS-55, it's harder for me to say how the E-Shift + Darby competes with the LS-5.


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post #65 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 04:36 PM
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I didn't mean my specific projector for brightness. Overall, if you look at DLPs they seem to be very bright. I picked up an InFocus IN82 on ebay. Its a light cannon. You also have to take into consideration the incredible lamp issues many users are experiencing with their JVCs. I had the same issue with my RS20. It was pretty much unwatchable at 1200 hours.

From what I've read from individuals who own an RS-55 they say the e-shift doesn't make a huge difference in apparent sharpness but what it does do is get rid of any SDE. I don't remember seeing any with my old RS20. So I guess that's for people with huge screens or for people who sit very close. Don't get me wrong, I loved the RS20 I had. It had decent convergence and darker movies looked amazing on it. It's faults are what I unfortunately value more. ie sharpness and motion. The Darby should help a lot.

Go see the LS-5. I promise you that you're going to be surprised. I just hope they have it set up properly with a decent screen in front of it. From my memory the RS10 I had before upgrading to the RS20 was on par with the LS-5 on black levels. To sum it up here is what Art had to say and he loves his RS20:

"In other words, I've watched almost 100 hours on this Runco, and I never felt a compelling need (even on the darkest of scenes) to switch back to my JVC RS20, which does do blacker blacks. Like that Optoma I just mentioned, the Sony VW90ES, and several other really good home theater projectors, the LightStyle LS-5 delivers really good black performance, that should satisfy all but the hardest core - must have a JVC for the blacks type person, disregarding other aspects of the projectors."

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post #66 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 05:05 PM
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I did see it I think, but I'm not sure if it was the LS-3 or LS-5, I didn't know the difference at the time. Once I saw the price tag, I had to stop myself. It would take quite a leap for me to spend $5000 on a projector, because I figure I will just for a refurb or b-stock if I was going to buy one that expensive. I will go look next weekend if I can, but it was just hard to tell unless I bring my own bluray (which I will this time). The colors look almost "jewelry shiny like" on the JVC, the DLP does that well at certain brightness levels, but the JVC seems to cover the entire range better.

I owned an Epson 8500ub and I've spent quite a bit of time watching the Epson 5010 (which a guy I know now owns) and both those are said to beat the Runco in black levels, so even at that point the extra on/off still matter a little to me because the colors look better overall. Between my friend and I, we probably have owned 25 different projectors (he is the one that got me into projectors). Out of the 25+ projectors we've owned (and all the showroom hoping I've done, I've seen a whole lot of different projectors now), we both agreed that my JVC was the sharpest non-DLP either of us have ever owned or SEEN (but maybe the Viewsonic LCD Pro8100 or Mits hc7000).

The strangest thing about the 5010 is I swear there are a few scenes like closeups of faces that POP more than a DLP or LCOS, it's the less pixel fill that causes it I think. Then 2 minutes later in the same movie it looks flatter suddenly. That's why I call LCD the most inconsistent picture of all of them, it depends on the angle and lighting to how it looks. There are actually a few scenes here and there the 5010 can beat the JVC at and even DLP's we've seen.

Art also said the same thing about the Benq w6000 and w7000 compared to the Epson's black levels, so I went through all the trouble of going to FRy's and making the sales guy hook it up. Then when we fired it up, I was thinking --- come on, the blacks are not at Epson levels or even near it.


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post #67 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 05:45 PM
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I used to own a Epson 6500UB. Black levels are on par with the LS-5

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post #68 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 05:45 PM
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I agree with coderguy more. I have seen the LS-3 and while it's very good it didn't blow me away. I think my Acer 9500 looks as good and I am not smoking either.
I saw the RS45 and VW95 as well and they got a big wow factor. The dynamic range is just incredible with no hints of murkiness. I was especially surprised with the sharpness of RS45, it's definitely up there with the DLP's.
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post #69 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 05:51 PM
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Don't worry guys, I'm not going to start this argument every time someone mentions the Runco and be so wordy like I was here. I've been holding back for a long time on the DLP vs. LCOS thing (usually making general statements), but this somehow became THE THREAD to finally duke it all out in.

For me the multi-projector setup still takes the cake, because I cannot spend $5000+ yet on a single unit. Plus I find it more boring to only own one projector, 3-5 is good smile.gif

Now I'm still trying to see if I can fit an Optoma hd33 in my room for 3D, but I just can't find a place to mount the darn thing. Some refurbs on some more expensive 3D DLP's are tempting, but I gotta wait to see what comes out this next year. We may see a lower-end 3D DLP with an IRIS on it that has a 6x color wheel and that has slightly better On/Off than the Benq (I doubt we will, but who knows).


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post #70 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 06:58 PM
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wow did this thread get crapped into oblivion...

all the guy wanted to know is if a projector made sense in his dedicated room. cool.gif

good arguments though, it's been a while.
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post #71 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 07:05 PM
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We're too scared to start a thread saying DLP vs. LCOS, so we just hijacked this one and hid our argument in here, as it seemed like the more civilized thing to do smile.gif


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post #72 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 07:27 PM
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Haha To be fair I think he got his answer in the first page of comments. Projection is the way to go.

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post #73 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 07:34 PM
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It is kind of funny. At least we didn't start calling each other names.

Everyone should buy a Kuro Plasma and then place a 120" Magnifying screen in front of it, except that big of a magnification lens might cost a couple mil, and some of us will still see pixel fill.
Some astronomical contrast numbers, 2500:1 ANSI and > 200,000:1 on/off (don't even know the real on/off).


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post #74 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 07:42 PM
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To be fair, the arguments haven't changed much over the past 5 years so its almost a tradition on here now. Basically projector technology Ragnarok

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post #75 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 07:43 PM
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It was a more balanced argument in some respects than the ones in past years, I remember some of the older arguments people would try to say JVC had smoother motion than DLP, and I would just laugh. Or people would say the ANSI contrast in DLP made dark scenes look darker then on/off.

It doesn't really matter if someone buys a Runco LS-5 or a JVC RS whatever, they are both going to do better at some things, and the image is going to be really good regardless. The question I guess was can the Runco do "enough better" in all categories to say never buy a JVC paired with a cheaper DLP. Not for me at that price, but I'll go look again just to see.


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post #76 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 08:18 PM
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"Your experience of immersion is dependent on your field of view so just sit closer to the screen."

^^^
Yes, but there is some limit to that. Sitting within two feet of a 32 inch television doesn't have the same effect, even if it is the same viewing angle as a front projection setup.
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post #77 of 81 Old 08-17-2012, 09:20 PM
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Agreed, you lose what I call the auditorium effect. There is just a better viewing experience when the light source is much farther away from your eyes, it gives a larger sense of grandeur. It is hard to pinpoint exactly where this effect starts or stops mathematically, it even probably depends on the room design and is partly visual psychology.

Otherwise if these guys were right, then a 100 foot ROCKY hill with some snow on it would look the same as Mt. Everest. So if you just moved closer to the hill, then we'll get the same effect as seeing Mt. Everest in person. No reason for me to go look at Mt. Everest when I go look at a rock with snow on it... tongue.gif

Now it gets complicated, because a model trainset filmed in a movie to try to look like a real train can look REAL, but that's because you are seeing it in 2D and they are removing ALL associative references to fool your eyes. However, the distance between the screen and your eyes is a real Z-depth which changes size perception of the object you are viewing (objects are not closer than they appear kind of thing). The room walls and anything in the room acts as an associative reference, so in a pitch black room you may get better immersion when you cannot see the walls. Some of this same problem is also related to when we see 3D objects look like miniaturized models, it's a problem in depth translation of the Z-order in relation to the size of the object, that is how our brain tells us how big something really is.

Z-depth can be tricked and disoriented if you lack an associative visual reference of any object between another, but generally speaking the distance for viewing from the screen in relation to the size of the screen definitely does matter because this distance and size tells our brain how BIG WE THINK THE OBJECT IS.

...


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post #78 of 81 Old 08-18-2012, 07:28 AM
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Great post,

I agree, In my theater the scope screen is 11 ft wide, I found that the back row of seating ( 16 ft from screen) is best when watching scope movies. The picture looks good from the front row (12 ft,) but for scope viewing it is not as enjoyable to me.
If I watch a movie in 16x9 format the 8 ft wide screen is comfortable for me, but I still prefer the back row .
When the family goes down to watch A movie, they all know that the back center seat is mine! (well, everyone but the dog, he will grab it first if I am not down yet;))

Now, I have to add that I wear eyeglasses, and my periphial vision is not what it used to be. This probably has some effect, but not much.

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post #79 of 81 Old 09-03-2012, 08:29 PM
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I was a fervent flat panel fan, plasma in particular, for many years so I still keep an eye on what is happening to some degree. I still get to see the Panasonic 103" plasma regularly. I've been checking out the Sharp (and Samsung) series of LCD flat panels as they have gotten bigger and bigger. I'd seen the 70" and 80" but encountered the Sharp 90" today, playing some demo material.

The good: Contrast was pretty amazing. Image sharpness, very good (though not quite what I see on my projection set up these days). The vibrancy of the image was luxurious.

However....

I think I've become spoiled by the smoothness of the image on my RS55 projector. When I see one of the bigger flat panels I instinctively position myself to get a similar viewing angle like I get at home with my projector. But now when I do I'm particularly struck by seeing the granular, pixel structure on the flat panels. With E-shift on the JVC there is no visible pixel structure from any rational sitting distance and so it maintains a smooth "solid" feel in large and even huge image sizes. I just haven't had to think about pixel structure so it's a bit weird when it suddenly pops into view when looking at these flat panels. Of course the pixel structure diminished and the image looked smoother as I stepped further away. But then...I lose the immersiveness and it starts feeling smaller, like TV.

Also, the illumination of the image hot-spots on these LCDs (dimmer corners etc). Not to mention the variation of image quality with respect to the viewer position. WOW do these things wash out when you start to move off axis. It's awful! No such issue with the projected image at home (although I would have that issue had I chosen certain other types of screens).

Finally, the image looked flatter than I'm used to. At home I'm just used to a window-like depth of image. The effortless, immersive depth and sense of looking way into the space of the picture with my projection set up just wasn't there on this LCD, with this demo material. Everything looked sharp and vibrant, but flat.

Gawd I love my projection set up. smile.gif

(BTW, the salesman said "beats any projector huh?" I said..."uh...I'm not quite sure about that. Not mine, from what I see here." He said "Oh, yeah, but the projector is going to cost 3 times the price!"
Er...no...this 90" flat panel was going for $10,000 CDN - my projector was half the cost. But, hey, that's salesmen for ya...")
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post #80 of 81 Old 09-04-2012, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I was a fervent flat panel fan, plasma in particular, for many years so I still keep an eye on what is happening to some degree. I still get to see the Panasonic 103" plasma regularly. I've been checking out the Sharp (and Samsung) series of LCD flat panels as they have gotten bigger and bigger. I'd seen the 70" and 80" but encountered the Sharp 90" today, playing some demo material.
The good: Contrast was pretty amazing. Image sharpness, very good (though not quite what I see on my projection set up these days). The vibrancy of the image was luxurious.
However....
I think I've become spoiled by the smoothness of the image on my RS55 projector. When I see one of the bigger flat panels I instinctively position myself to get a similar viewing angle like I get at home with my projector. But now when I do I'm particularly struck by seeing the granular, pixel structure on the flat panels. With E-shift on the JVC there is no visible pixel structure from any rational sitting distance and so it maintains a smooth "solid" feel in large and even huge image sizes. I just haven't had to think about pixel structure so it's a bit weird when it suddenly pops into view when looking at these flat panels. Of course the pixel structure diminished and the image looked smoother as I stepped further away. But then...I lose the immersiveness and it starts feeling smaller, like TV.
Also, the illumination of the image hot-spots on these LCDs (dimmer corners etc). Not to mention the variation of image quality with respect to the viewer position. WOW do these things wash out when you start to move off axis. It's awful! No such issue with the projected image at home (although I would have that issue had I chosen certain other types of screens).
Finally, the image looked flatter than I'm used to. At home I'm just used to a window-like depth of image. The effortless, immersive depth and sense of looking way into the space of the picture with my projection set up just wasn't there on this LCD, with this demo material. Everything looked sharp and vibrant, but flat.
Gawd I love my projection set up. smile.gif
(BTW, the salesman said "beats any projector huh?" I said..."uh...I'm not quite sure about that. Not mine, from what I see here." He said "Oh, yeah, but the projector is going to cost 3 times the price!"
Er...no...this 90" flat panel was going for $10,000 CDN - my projector was half the cost. But, hey, that's salesmen for ya...")

I doubt that the sales guy has a clue what a projector setup costs.

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post #81 of 81 Old 09-04-2012, 07:21 AM
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Pixel Fill factor. Thats enough for me. Cant handle the digital feel of televisions.

Even the new Epson LCD Projectors at 60% start to feel a bit digital to me.
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