JVC DLA-RS48 / DLA X55 projector with 3D RF glasses and E-shift CEDIA 2012 - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 795 Old 11-24-2012, 08:21 AM
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I'm close to max zoom with my 120in HP screen, and I'm getting close to max gain. With cine4homes numbers last year my CR for my RS55 at max zoom with the iris at -15 gave me 53000:1 with about 18ftL on high lamp. With the RS48 with my same setup, I will be getting 42000:1 with 20ftL on high lamp. I'm sure its a very slight difference that I will not notice, plus I'm using a Darbee this time around with the improved eshift2. Just ordered the Oppo 103 to have my sources go directly to the projector, great time of year.
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post #452 of 795 Old 11-24-2012, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Using data from Cine4home's previews of the X75, X55 and review of the X70 I plotted Contrast Ratio for these 3 machines at the three points Ekki measured: Iris Closed, Mid Iris, Iris Open.
Ekki posts CR numbers for max zoom and min zoom but I averaged them so as to keep the chart uncluttered and easier to follow.

I think it's pretty safe to say that JVC made a nice improvement in the X75 compared to its predecessor the X70.



The data shows that one clearly benefits more from the higher CR machine when the Iris is clamped down. For those using the Iris nearly open the advantages of the higher CR projectors greatly diminishes.


Geof - thanks for posting the chart. I usually run the RS55 at -11 so it gives a good idea what to expect for the 4810 / RS56.

for others trying to decide RS46 vs RS4810 - There's a number of new adjustments for the e-shift2 that weren't available last year. It could have a greater gain at farther seating distances once the controls are tweaked. The reports will start to flood in once they are out there in a few weeks.

I still have my RS55 and will compare it to the 4810's e-shift 2 once it arrives.
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post #453 of 795 Old 11-24-2012, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules View Post

Its interesting what the gentleman from Finland (tn1krr) said about the e-shift2 advantage from farther seating distances. I am going to be sitting about 1.5 to 1.6 screen widths from a 16 x 9 screen and based on what he said, I won't really see any difference from the 46 and the 48. This makes me think that e-shift will be an advantage only if I sit really close to the screen, which is just too close for me.

That is my thinking as well. Curious to hear more, but at my seating distances eshift2 sounds like it wont have much impact, especially my 1.8 1.78 distance. Not really sounding worth the upgrade for my setup right now.

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post #454 of 795 Old 11-24-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Geof - thanks for posting the chart. I usually run the RS55 at -11 so it gives a good idea what to expect for the 4810 / RS56.
for others trying to decide RS46 vs RS4810 - There's a number of new adjustments for the e-shift2 that weren't available last year. It could have a greater gain at farther seating distances once the controls are tweaked. The reports will start to flood in once they are out there in a few weeks.
I still have my RS55 and will compare it to the 4810's e-shift 2 once it arrives.
I'm interested in your take regarding CR differences between the RS55 and X55. I no longer have my RS55 and I'm the 4810 preorder list.

As for eshift2 I will be disappointed after reading all the hype if there is not a more discernible difference at 1.5 to 2.0 SW seating distances. That said I think the obvious improvement will be less noise at the higher MPC settings, which will be a welcome improvement on some material.

Regarding the chart I posted above, it would be interesting to know how much variance there is between different units of the same model.

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post #455 of 795 Old 11-24-2012, 10:03 PM
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I'm really sorry to ask this and I'm sure it's been answered many times before but I just can't find the answer when I search. What exactly is the difference between the pro line of JVC projectors and the none pro line? For example, what is the difference between the RS4810 and the DLA-X55R? Do the projectors differ at all or is it just a different model number with the same exact projector?
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post #456 of 795 Old 11-24-2012, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

I'm really sorry to ask this and I'm sure it's been answered many times before but I just can't find the answer when I search. What exactly is the difference between the pro line of JVC projectors and the none pro line? For example, what is the difference between the RS4810 and the DLA-X55R? Do the projectors differ at all or is it just a different model number with the same exact projector?

Yep, same projector. RS48, RS4810, and X55 are all the same projector. The RS4810 comes with an extra year warranty compared to the RS48 and both are usually sold in the US. The X55 is usually sold outside of the US
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post #457 of 795 Old 11-24-2012, 11:02 PM
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How much of a difference would there be between a x55 and a x35 + Darbee.
Would love a comparison between these 2 like that.
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post #458 of 795 Old 11-24-2012, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by merc10 View Post

How much of a difference would there be between a x55 and a x35 + Darbee.
Would love a comparison between these 2 like that.

I think Zombie10k will answer that question when he gets his RS4810 (X55). When e-shift is turned off on the 4810, it is essentially a RS45 (X35), so he should be able to give us a nice comparison.
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post #459 of 795 Old 11-25-2012, 09:24 AM
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OK, I have to post my contribution then as well. smile.gif I put all the data in one chart.
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post #460 of 795 Old 11-25-2012, 09:59 AM
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Another comparison that is quite interesting is lumens vs contrast. The X75 is clearly ahead of the others here.
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post #461 of 795 Old 11-25-2012, 02:02 PM
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Shouldn't these charts also factor in the throw distances between min-max (or are these just all assumed at mid point)?

In my case I run at -7 and about a 17' throw from a 110" diag screen which represents about 30% short of max (tried to find a good trade off between lumens and max on/off). How would I adjust the throw distance to these numbers to get an accurate read between the X55 and X75 in an attempt to justify the added contrast (of the x75), over cost? What I'm trying to discern assuming my throw distance doesn't skew Geof's numbers is... would a difference of 14.5K (at -7), be a real world noticable difference to justify the premium over the X55?

confused.gif


confused.gif

Also FWIW - I bought a couple x104 glasses and compared to both the original & new JVC glasses and I can find no discernible differences whatsoever (for my screen of course). What I found most interesting is by tweaking the glasses using the Xpand software and turning down white to -3 as what was posted earlier by Jason on his shootout thread, I think I do perceive less dark ghosting. I have more to test but at about $65-75 for these glasses they seem to be an excellent value (and much more comfortable for glasses wearers too!). wink.gif

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post #462 of 795 Old 11-25-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Shouldn't these charts also factor in the throw distances between min-max (or are these just all assumed at mid point)?

Look at the first chart I posted (post 459). Min and max zoom values are included. You will end up somewhere in between the extremes.
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post #463 of 795 Old 11-25-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Look at the first chart I posted (post 459). Min and max zoom values are included. You will end up somewhere in between the extremes.

Right... you mean all those pretty color lines all over the place?? I guess I'm not smart enough to figure out where I'm on that roadmap! eek.giftongue.gif

Assuming the difference between the X55 and X75 is roughly 14.5K contrast (all things being equal to Geof's post), would that amount be noticed enough to justify the 1.4K price difference. That's the million $$ question to me! wink.gif

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post #464 of 795 Old 11-25-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Assuming the difference between the X55 and X75 is roughly 14.5K contrast (all things being equal to Geof's post), can that be amount be noticed enough to justify the 1.4K prices difference. That's the million $$ question to me! wink.gif
I updated the chart in post 450 to include the X7. Notice how the X55 is similar to, and slightly better than, the RS50.

The charts do not account for throw. Adjust the line vertically to account for throw (the average between short throw and long throw are shown in the plots). Keep in mind this is a very crude graph for determining absolute contrast ratio. But it should be somewhat representative of the relative differences between machines.

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post #465 of 795 Old 11-25-2012, 07:54 PM
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Thanks Broheem... looks really great! What's your opinion on say a 15-20K increase in contrast for justification of paying said premium (although I realize there's more to the RS56/X75 than just the increased CR albeit the seeming consensus for real importance in these discussions)? I don't mind paying it if there's a noticeable improvement over the 4810 because I'm not interested in going backwards from the current RS55. biggrin.gif

I know the proof will be in the pudding but in terms of pure speculation of the assumed (above), I'd like some thoughts on the matter to help me decide since it appears we are getting close to the finish line. wink.gif

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post #466 of 795 Old 11-25-2012, 08:39 PM
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What are about anamorphic lens. - are they supported in 3d or only in 2d?
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post #467 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

OK, I have to post my contribution then as well. smile.gif I put all the data in one chart.

Just so others don't get confused. Geoff's charts did include last years models. Drexler's charts do not.

X7 = RS50
X70 = RS55
X75 = RS56

The X70 was a significant step-up from the X7 because not only did it have a better contrast ratio, but it output more lumens at D65. On the X7 you had to crank the aperture open more losing the gains in contrast that the dual aperture provides. On the X70, the true usable lumens at D65 is much better, so you gain through improved contrast AND keeping the aperture more closed. The X75 looks like another step forwards again. My personal opinion though, for those thinking about upgrading, is that the reason that JVC have used the same chassis for a third year running, is because the true next-generation platform is not ready yet (probably a 4K one). I do suffer from upgraditis, and my biggest issue with the X70 was the false advertising about its 3D performance. Brochures and on-line literature indicated all sorts of new technology and tricks to reduce crosstalk when in reality it was worse than the previous years models. The main reason it was worse was due to a significant increase in contrast ratio in 3D mode. Now I understand the X75 claims to improve yet again, but in part this is achieved by reducing the 3D contrast ratio back down a bit again! I had thought if crosstalk was truly solved this time around I might not be able to resist an upgrade...but I am hoping to try and be a bit sensible and wait out for my prediction of much more significant things next year.
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post #468 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by UdoG View Post

What are about anamorphic lens. - are they supported in 3d or only in 2d?

Since A-lens use was supported in 3D last year, I would have to assume that it is supported this year.

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post #469 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 06:19 AM
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Thanks - but this was the case only on higher priced models like X70, or? Because in the documentation I found no information about the support in 3D.
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post #470 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Just so others don't get confused. Geoff's charts did include last years models. Drexler's charts do not.
X7 = RS50
X70 = RS55
X75 = RS56
The X70 was a significant step-up from the X7 because not only did it have a better contrast ratio, but it output more lumens at D65. On the X7 you had to crank the aperture open more losing the gains in contrast that the dual aperture provides. On the X70, the true usable lumens at D65 is much better, so you gain through improved contrast AND keeping the aperture more closed. The X75 looks like another step forwards again. My personal opinion though, for those thinking about upgrading, is that the reason that JVC have used the same chassis for a third year running, is because the true next-generation platform is not ready yet (probably a 4K one). I do suffer from upgraditis, and my biggest issue with the X70 was the false advertising about its 3D performance. Brochures and on-line literature indicated all sorts of new technology and tricks to reduce crosstalk when in reality it was worse than the previous years models. The main reason it was worse was due to a significant increase in contrast ratio in 3D mode. Now I understand the X75 claims to improve yet again, but in part this is achieved by reducing the 3D contrast ratio back down a bit again! I had thought if crosstalk was truly solved this time around I might not be able to resist an upgrade...but I am hoping to try and be a bit sensible and wait out for my prediction of much more significant things next year.
Speaking of lumen output here's a chart that shows what you just said about the X7 (RS50).....


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post #471 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Assuming the difference between the X55 and X75 is roughly 14.5K contrast (all things being equal to Geof's post), would that amount be noticed enough to justify the 1.4K price difference. That's the million $$ question to me! wink.gif
I had the X70 so I'm using that as my "baseline" for any contrast ratio evaluations. In looking at the charts for my situation I could gain about the same amount of CR by getting the X75 as I would lose by getting a X55. IOW there is a big swing in CR between the X55 and X75 and the X70 sits roughly between them. The bottom line is the CR difference may well be more noticeable when comparing the X55 to the X75 then an X70/X75 (or x70/x55) comparison. But, IMO, the story of the graphs varies depending on your iris setting - The X75 has a higher CR than the X55 at any setting but the difference becomes more and more striking as the iris is closed. Take -13 as an example.....comparing the X55 and X75 one would guestimate a CR improvement of 42000:1 to 66000:1 which half again as much CR for the X75...and that's probably noticeable. So, in a long winded fashion I would expect to be able see a CR difference between the X55 and X75 at higher iris settings but since my last projector was the X70 maybe I don't see so much change with either an X55 or X75.

I also buy into Jonathan's argument to some extent.....this is the 3rd year on the chassis which, up till now, have changed every 2 years. That may be a sign of bigger things to come with next years models and a possible/probable new chassis. So, it may not be worth buying into a higher end model and either staying put or perhaps "settling" for the X55 (which I'm sure will be a competent performer) and keeping the option open for a possible upgrade next year. Personally I think if you only consider CR sticking with the X70 makes the most sense but eshift and 3D improvements may be a reason to get this years models although that remains to be seen. Wait for Zombies reports.....

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post #472 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I also buy into Jonathan's argument to some extent.....this is the 3rd year on the chassis which, up till now, have changed every 2 years. That may be a sign of bigger things to come with next years models and a possible/probable new chassis. So, it may not be worth buying into a higher end model and either staying put or perhaps "settling" for the X55 (which I'm sure will be a competent performer) and keeping the option open for a possible upgrade next year. Personally I think if you only consider CR sticking with the X70 makes the most sense but eshift and 3D improvements may be a reason to get this years models although that remains to be seen. Wait for Zombies reports.....

Although E-shift 2 has a lot more adjustments, I suspect most users won't want to keep changing it all the time. They will probably find a setting that works and leave it. E-shift combined with a Darbee is quite a potent combination...one seems to fuel off the other. I suspect that any improvements in e-shift 2 require a) that you have a very large screen, b) that you sit fairly close to it ...in order to see the new benefits of e-shift 2 over 1. But I await the reviews smile.gif
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post #473 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Although E-shift 2 has a lot more adjustments, I suspect most users won't want to keep changing it all the time. They will probably find a setting that works and leave it. E-shift combined with a Darbee is quite a potent combination...one seems to fuel off the other. I suspect that any improvements in e-shift 2 require a) that you have a very large screen, b) that you sit fairly close to it ...in order to see the new benefits of e-shift 2 over 1. But I await the reviews smile.gif
Like you, I'm not sure what to expect with eshift2....I do know that noise is a factor with higher MPC settings and eshift1. Since JVC is now using an 8 band filter the noise issue "should be" significantly reduced which would conceivably open up the door for more processing (with less artifacting) for eshift2. Perhaps there is an effective MPC=10 setting which I'd think would translate to seeing the effects of eshift at greater seating distances. It'll be interesting to read early comments on this!

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post #474 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Like you, I'm not sure what to expect with eshift2....I do know that noise is a factor with higher MPC settings and eshift1. Since JVC is now using an 8 band filter the noise issue "should be" significantly reduced which would conceivably open up the door for more processing (with less artifacting) for eshift2. Perhaps there is an effective MPC=10 setting which I'd think would translate to seeing the effects of eshift at greater seating distances. It'll be interesting to read early comments on this!

Indeed. I remember you took some great screenshots of the MPC levels with e-shift 1. At least with e-shift 1, the algorithm and level adjustment only affected the additional pixels (e.g. the second offset frame) and did not alter the original 1080p image (first frame) at all. So no matter how far back you sit, if you consider this limitation, which I assume still holds true for e-shift 2 (and so it should...the whole point is to assist the original image not change it).....then there is a simple factor that once you exceed a certain screensize/seating ratio, the ability to "see" 4k vs 2k diminishes substantially. However, there certainly was room for a more obvious MPC setting (like you said, up to 10) as long as noise can be brought under control. At MPC=2 I saw no artifacts. At MPC=3, I saw it so rarely that it never really bothered me so normally keep sharpness=0, and MPC=3 with my X70.
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post #475 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Indeed. I remember you took some great screenshots of the MPC levels with e-shift 1. At least with e-shift 1, the algorithm and level adjustment only affected the additional pixels (e.g. the second offset frame) and did not alter the original 1080p image (first frame) at all. So no matter how far back you sit, if you consider this limitation, which I assume still holds true for e-shift 2 (and so it should...the whole point is to assist the original image not change it).....then there is a simple factor that once you exceed a certain screensize/seating ratio, the ability to "see" 4k vs 2k diminishes substantially. However, there certainly was room for a more obvious MPC setting (like you said, up to 10) as long as noise can be brought under control. At MPC=2 I saw no artifacts. At MPC=3, I saw it so rarely that it never really bothered me so normally keep sharpness=0, and MPC=3 with my X70.
That's pretty much what I did as well. There were a few films where I did turn down the MPC and/or Darbee settings but for the most part I set 'em and forget 'em. I do hope they thought to add some IR commands for eshift & MPC adjustments so we don't have to burrow thru the menu's. I'm still expecting to see the Darbee work and play well with eshift2 and I'm sure Zombie will look at this.

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post #476 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 12:01 PM
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A sad reality....and a boost to Jonathan's argument I think.....

Looking at the chart in post 450 it's clear that the RS4810 has a bit better Contrast Ratio than the 2 year old RS50. And in looking at the chart in post 470 it's clear that the RS4810 put out more lumens than the RS50. The RS4810 has eshift2, the RS50 doesn't have eshift; the RS4810 has a better CMS implementation (presuming it's similar to this years CMS in the RS55 and 65) than the RS50. And, the RS4810 supposedly has a new longer lasting/slower dimming lamp.The RS50 does have a THX certification and a few more colorspaces and color profiles but when all is said and done the RS4810 is two years newer and $3000 cheaper and better in most all key areas than the RS50 which is amazing since the RS50 is just 2 years old.

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post #477 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

A sad reality....and a boost to Jonathan's argument I think.....
Looking at the chart in post 450 it's clear that the RS4810 has a bit better Contrast Ratio than the 2 year old RS50. And in looking at the chart in post 470 it's clear that the RS4810 put out more lumens than the RS50. The RS4810 has eshift2, the RS50 doesn't have eshift; the RS4810 has a better CMS implementation (presuming it's similar to this years CMS in the RS55 and 65) than the RS50. And, the RS4810 supposedly has a new longer lasting/slower dimming lamp.The RS50 does have a THX certification and a few more colorspaces and color profiles but when all is said and done the RS4810 is two years newer and $3000 cheaper and better in most all key areas than the RS50 which is amazing since the RS50 is just 2 years old.

Yes and that seeming reality has me giddy with anticipation!!! eek.gifeek.gif I have a really fine performing RS50 that's been UMR optimized. Sharp as a tack. I sit there as I have done several times now over the past few years since the RS1 and just shake my head. How can it get any better when I am looking at a pristine source?? I know many of us have felt that way and being nervous prior to a later technology projector coming in. (convergence and QC issues aside) And the new machine gets put into your system and you go "Oh OK!!! Now I see how it gets better!!!" This is my first go around with eShift and it's an improved eShift according to reports and JVC. I don't see pixels now on the super sharp picture with a Darblet, at just over one screen width distance. Can only sit that close with the brightness from my old school Hi Power at 8.5' wide....when it is that "pristine" source, though.

Can't wait!!
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post #478 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Indeed. I remember you took some great screenshots of the MPC levels with e-shift 1. At least with e-shift 1, the algorithm and level adjustment only affected the additional pixels (e.g. the second offset frame) and did not alter the original 1080p image (first frame) at all. So no matter how far back you sit, if you consider this limitation, which I assume still holds true for e-shift 2 (and so it should...the whole point is to assist the original image not change it).....then there is a simple factor that once you exceed a certain screensize/seating ratio, the ability to "see" 4k vs 2k diminishes substantially. However, there certainly was room for a more obvious MPC setting (like you said, up to 10) as long as noise can be brought under control. At MPC=2 I saw no artifacts. At MPC=3, I saw it so rarely that it never really bothered me so normally keep sharpness=0, and MPC=3 with my X70.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

A sad reality....and a boost to Jonathan's argument I think.....
Looking at the chart in post 450 it's clear that the RS4810 has a bit better Contrast Ratio than the 2 year old RS50. And in looking at the chart in post 470 it's clear that the RS4810 put out more lumens than the RS50. The RS4810 has eshift2, the RS50 doesn't have eshift; the RS4810 has a better CMS implementation (presuming it's similar to this years CMS in the RS55 and 65) than the RS50. And, the RS4810 supposedly has a new longer lasting/slower dimming lamp.The RS50 does have a THX certification and a few more colorspaces and color profiles but when all is said and done the RS4810 is two years newer and $3000 cheaper and better in most all key areas than the RS50 which is amazing since the RS50 is just 2 years old.


Great summations from the both of you and exactly was I was hoping for to help crunch all this data to formulate a somewhat edjamicated decision here. Your points here make it even clearer (or muddier however you were leaning), making a solid argument for the 4810 over the more expensive RS56 assuming/presuming the potential for a new design next year could be a reality (because if that does happen then the RS56's value will tank and that extra $1400 goes right out the window in less than a year!).

Being we all pretty much went from the RS50/X7 to the RS55/X70 when I think back on this... the contrast wasn't what I noticed as the main benefits of upgrading (if at all at times...since I don't run clamped at less than midpoint (-7), so the added contrast levels are not realized to its fullest in my case); it was most certainly e-shift (and now the darblet combo!). So in my case one could argue from your charts the change is negligible at anything less than about 2/3rd's clamping. Basically... if I really didn't notice the "upgrade" of contrast from the 50 => 55 it's entirely possible/plausible to conclude I wouldn't notice the "downgrade" from the 55 => 4810.

I think I just pulled out a chunk of hair! tongue.gif

Thanks guys!

wink.gif

Kevin

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post #479 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 04:40 PM
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The RS4810 sounds like the best solution for -7, plus you already have the mini 3D so the auto-cal feature isn't likely of interest.
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post #480 of 795 Old 11-26-2012, 04:51 PM
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By George Kevin, I think you've got it.....smile.gif

TBH, I think I will miss the lost CR by going from the RS55 to RS4810. At least that is my expectation going into this. I don't expect it to be earth shattering but from my observations higher CR's tend to result in more image dimensionality. eShift2 may well make up for that tho...

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