JVC DLA-RS48 / DLA X55 projector with 3D RF glasses and E-shift CEDIA 2012 - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 795 Old 12-11-2012, 04:23 PM
Senior Member
 
velvetpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You can untrain yourself by simply watching the way the director intended you to. Take the Grand canyon Adventure. It has a variety of scenes where if you look for ghosting you will see it. Take the guy standing on the beach as the rafts go down the river. You see the opposite canyon walls, the rafts, the rapids. But if you focus on the guy, he ghosts. Same for a scene with a tripod standiing on the beach. the whole scene looks great but focus in on the tripod and it ghosts. The famous tree in the foreground of the father daughter scene, they are standing on an outcropping. The tree really ghosts and it occupies 1/3 of the picture. But if you are watching the center. the daughter and father, you don't seee the tree ghosting because its in the foreground and is there to provide a depth reference to a wide angle lens shot..
take the lamp post scene in dispicable me. The lamp posts ghost buy they only occuppy a tiny part of the image and are there to provide depth. If you look at the character in the middle who occcupies 80% of the screen, you will never be aware that the posts ghosts.
On my Sony 1000ES, I can't remener seeing any ghosting but I really haven't tried to.

I agree.... that is why I question why people sit so close to their screens.... How can you let your eyes naturally draw to where the director intends you to without having your focus dart around the screen? I know my eyes can't once i get to close to the screen. Maybe my eye width is different then others smile.gif

A lot of memebers seem to enjoy sitting pretty close to their screens so i could only imagine this exasherbates the problem. You wouldn't necissarly be looking where the frame composition is telling you to.. Not that there is anything wrong with that, to each their own but your statement of watching the way the director intended you to resonated with me. I also put a lot of stock in frame composition and cinematography.
velvetpoet is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 795 Old 12-11-2012, 04:53 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Laser projectors are coming rapidly and the 3D delivery system will be passive because the laser can be instantly switch from one polarization to another.. essentialy the switching is so fast both images will be on the screen at the same time. the only losses will be the pass through through the glasses..
There will be about only a 20% light loss and no ghosting.. 4K and the Red w. By the end of this year.ill come in a under 415K, factiry direct.
Its time to start squireling away $500 per month so that the balance becomes manageable, at least for many.If I decide to jump in a year, I figure my 1000ES will fetch at leat $10K though I will need a Firehawk LS screen because of the need for a screen with a high polarizationextinction ratio.Light with a gain of only 1.26 won't be a problem from the three laser diodes.

Yes, a laser projector should provide ample illumination, even for 3D. I had several issues with my first gen Firehawk - sparklies and uneven color and brightness uniformity being the main ones. The low gain should be offset by laser's intensity. I'm just hoping they've improved the other characteristics. I'm also hoping the Red laser projector is great. I'm ready to buy, if it meets my standards.

As for training yourself not to see ghosting, I don't think that's possible. I know I couldn't, nor do I think even a casual 3D viewer could in the case of last year's JVCs. I have a story similar to Toe's. I took my mom to lunch, and we stopped to see the first 3D TV to appear in a Best Buy in my area. Her first question when we started watching the demo clips was, "Why is there an outline around everything I see?" This from a woman who once proudly proclaimed to me, "High definition, low definition, no definition. I can't tell the difference." When I reminded her of that, she sheepishly said, "I guess I can see some differences after all." biggrin.gif

Tolerance to ghosting is personal, to be sure, but JVC deserves every bit of criticism it got last year, and then some. Engineers charged with developing a 3D projector understand ghosting all too well. Their first effort, including my RS40, was passable as a 3D machine, but only when the lamp was new, and only for 24p Blu-ray 3D. Their marketing claims last year were out and out lies. One of the most ludicrous was the one where they claimed they reduced ghosting by leaving the shutter glasses open longer. What??? The rest was equally misleading or outright false. I'll grant you that I'm more sensitive to these sorts of issues than most people, but JVC crossed the line. They're the ones who deserve all the blame for ghosting complaints, not the people on AVS who pointed them out. They made modifications to the design which decreased 3D performance and then claimed the opposite. These guys can see, and they had to see the effects of their changes.

For someone who believes in adjusting a display to get the best possible performance, it seems a bit out of character to ask people to train themselves not to see a glaring visual problem such as ghosting. I see little difference between that and suggesting that people not concentrate on faces that look like neon signs, but on what the director intended. Surely, the 3D director didn't intend his audience to see ghosts around every other object on the screen. If a 3D display does a lousy job, people need to know it. I feel good about being a bit of a 3D watchdog.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is online now  
post #633 of 795 Old 12-11-2012, 06:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xb1032's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
I agree with Joseph Clark.

Many of us critique our viewing a little too much I agree but the ghosting on last years JVC was just too blatantly obvious to ignore. Now if we were griping about ghosting on the Sony/Epson then that's another story.

Thankfully, it sounds like gripes about anything more than minor ghosting might be a thing of the past. Now other manufacturers need to add that ability to use FI in 3D in next years models.
xb1032 is offline  
post #634 of 795 Old 12-11-2012, 07:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 1,678
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Yeah, that does not work for me at this point unfortunately. The ghosting draws my eyes even trying to just watch the damn disc as intended.
I have a BenQ 7000 on the way to play with though that will solve both my ghosting and flicker issue. cool.gif With as sensitive to these issues as I am though, RBE will probably drive me nuts on the 7000! eek.giftongue.gif Looking forward to playing with the 7000 though and seeing how it goes.

DO NOT PUT UP THE THICK LINED GRID PATTERN THE W7000 GIVES YOU. RBE galore. But you should love the 3D, brightness, motion and sharpness of the machine.
RonF is offline  
post #635 of 795 Old 12-11-2012, 10:06 PM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,092
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post

DO NOT PUT UP THE THICK LINED GRID PATTERN THE W7000 GIVES YOU. RBE galore. But you should love the 3D, brightness, motion and sharpness of the machine.

Thanks for the heads up! I am going to steer clear of that pattern! eek.gif

Joseph,

VERY well said and I could not agree more. wink.gif The crosstalk canceler in particular is one of the biggest jokes in the history of A/V.......what the hell was that all about? What a joke!rolleyes.gif

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
Toe is online now  
post #636 of 795 Old 12-11-2012, 10:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

One key factor with any projector with high CR numbers is you must have total light control in your room in order to achieve similar values for your home theater 'system'. That is, no room lights and no external light entering the room via windows, doors, etc. Without that you will never be able to come close to the CR of the projector itself since any other light reaching the screen will raise the black level and reduce the CR.

Very true. I would never consider viewing a front projected image in anything other than a totally dark environment.
In dark low average picture level scenes where high contrast and deep blacks are critical the black level limitations of any digital projector are obviously deficient to me, even the top line JVC. Black is no where near black even when its MUCH darker than Kuro Plasma.
In medium to high average picture level scenes room reflections dominate performance, but with decent reflection control performance is fine.
Owen is offline  
post #637 of 795 Old 12-11-2012, 10:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

I really do not know if it is supposedly much higher (10x???) ANSI contrast in Kuro or what but having spend years with both; to my eyes Kuro has easily perceived better blacks. This does not any way negate the fact that JVC DLA's have significantly better native blacks than pretty much any projection device and due to size and other stuff the JVC IMO has overall much more impressive picture; mask graybars away from the JVC picture and you have something absoletely amazing for 2.35:1 too. The ever-impressive Kuro sees 99% of its use as display for my wife to watch reality TV or local "drama" biggrin.gif I pick the JVC about 99.9% of the time I really want to watch something.
Things like "inky black" mean different stuff for different people, but I've never seen a projector/room combination that would not benefit from masking for 2.35:1. Until I do, there is no such thing as perfect blacks for me and I'm as black-level-o-holic as there is. Even my phone has Super AMOLED screen for this very specific reason.

The Plasma will normally be set to deliver much higher light output than the projector and it only takes a small a mount of bright content on screen to dramatically affect how your eyes perceive black. Turn the contrast setting way down on the Plasma to get the same measured peak white level as the projector and compare a dark scene on both in the same room at the same time. You will then find the blacks on the Kuro are not so impressive.
Owen is offline  
post #638 of 795 Old 12-12-2012, 02:19 AM
Member
 
tn1krr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

The Plasma will normally be set to deliver much higher light output than the projector and it only takes a small a mount of bright content on screen to dramatically affect how your eyes perceive black. Turn the contrast setting way down on the Plasma to get the same measured peak white level as the projector and compare a dark scene on both in the same room at the same time. You will then find the blacks on the Kuro are not so impressive.
I actually visited this Kuro vs. JVC perceived black stuff yesterday, tried to study both displays with critical eye and I think you are quite spot on why the Kuro backs are perceived as darker. Few things to add though, more as a food for though and I really do not have science to support these.
1. In the brighter average picture levels with some dark/black in them the Kuro seems much better. Whether this is its better ANSI contrast or the fact that the picture does not suffer reflections (ambient light affects ANSI contrast so these 2 things may actually be one), I do not know. Also, my own perception may be tainted a bit as I know these are the most challenging scenes for projectors maybe I study the those scenes more carefully.
2. Screen size. Looking at the 2.35:1 graybars in both 50" Kuro and in 110" Screen with JVC somehow the gray appears less black the bigger the area.

That said, I did a quick rudimentary black level calibration for my X55 yesterday and watched some HD Live (1080i high bit rate with Radiance XS doing the deinterlace and just a tiny bit mpeg NR) music videos. Damn, the X55 is good. Close viewing distance, E-Shift2 in "film" mode with default 50/50/50 settings toned down quite considerably and you just are there. Until you get used to it the level of "being there" is almost a bit disturbing at first. The E-Shift brings an increased level of clarity to people's eyes, skin/clothing textures etc. that really cannot be captured with a still camera shot and it really brings you to the stage with music performers.
tn1krr is offline  
post #639 of 795 Old 12-12-2012, 02:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Setting peak white level the same on the projector screen and the Kuro will give a much fairer comparison, if you can organize that let use know what you find.

E-Shift comprises two distinctly separate systems, the pixel shift system that smooths the image to remove visible pixel structure, which can be very helpful if viewing angle is wide enough for pixel structure to be visible without E-Shift, and the digital image processing to sharpen the image.
Digital sharpening can be applied to any projector and comparing the "sharpness" of a projector with digital sharpening to one that does not have that additional help is not a fair comparison IMHO.

Without the digital sharpening E-Shift models will have slightly lower MTF and therefore a less natively sharp image than non E-Shift equipped models so adding sharpening to a non E-Shift model should yield an even sharper image.
Owen is offline  
post #640 of 795 Old 12-12-2012, 03:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JonStatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 2,237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 43
I think I am pointing out the obvious here.We cannot have a meanginful exchange about the comparing black level between a Kuro and any projector. Why? Because the Kuro is a fixed size screen, fixed parameters, and other associated conditions. If you project a JVC onto a 60" diagonal, black levels will be poor even if the aperture is closed right down. Or if you have a high gain screen and 80" diagonal. The black level is not just determined by the projector, but by the screen, the distance of the projector, and the screensize. The room obviously also affects things if there is anything other than black being projected as the reflections off walls, ceilings, glass cabinets, also affect things. So one person might see their Kuro beats their JVC hands-down, while another will say, "ooh the Kuro really shows its age now, my JVC walks all over it with black level".
JonStatt is online now  
post #641 of 795 Old 12-12-2012, 03:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JonStatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 2,237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

Setting peak white level the same on the projector screen and the Kuro will give a much fairer comparison, if you can organize that let use know what you find.
E-Shift comprises two distinctly separate systems, the pixel shift system that smooths the image to remove visible pixel structure, which can be very helpful if viewing angle is wide enough for pixel structure to be visible without E-Shift, and the digital image processing to sharpen the image.
Digital sharpening can be applied to any projector and comparing the "sharpness" of a projector with digital sharpening to one that does not have that additional help is not a fair comparison IMHO.
Without the digital sharpening E-Shift models will have slightly lower MTF and therefore a less natively sharp image than non E-Shift equipped models so adding sharpening to a non E-Shift model should yield an even sharper image.

With e-shift 1, ONLY the extra shifted pixels were used as part of the "edge and contrast enhancing algorithms". Seeing some of the results being posted with E-shift 2 may suggest that JVC are now using both A and B frames. While this gives a much more noticeable effect, it may also make any artifacts of the enhancements more pronounced. That isn't to say the capability of e-shift 2 isn't an improvement. But the defaults appear to have gone from one extreme to another between e-shift 1 and 2 , so more care is needed to optimise the new range of JVCs.
JonStatt is online now  
post #642 of 795 Old 12-12-2012, 04:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
It makes no difference how many pixels are used the ONLY reason the E-Shift models look sharper is because of digital enhancement. The E-Shift element in the light path lowers MTF and ANSI contrast so native projector sharpness is degraded some what.

Edge enhancement of any kind is to be avoided in my experience, selective MTF enhancement is the way to go IMHO and that can be used with any projector with very beneficial results. I have been using such a system utilizing a PC for image processing for about 8 years.
Owen is offline  
post #643 of 795 Old 12-12-2012, 04:05 AM
Member
 
tn1krr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

E-Shift comprises two distinctly separate systems, the pixel shift system that smooths the image to remove visible pixel structure, which can be very helpful if viewing angle is wide enough for pixel structure to be visible without E-Shift, and the digital image processing to sharpen the image.
Digital sharpening can be applied to any projector and comparing the "sharpness" of a projector with digital sharpening to one that does not have that additional help is not a fair comparison IMHO.
Without the digital sharpening E-Shift models will have slightly lower MTF and therefore a less natively sharp image than non E-Shift equipped models so adding sharpening to a non E-Shift model should yield an even sharper image.
My viewing distance is quite short, around 0.8-1 SW and like I mentioned earlier when I had the prototype X55 in my room and set a split screen comparison between the X55 and my old X3 that made me notice that I actually can see the pixel structure, sometimes quite clearly. It became easily noticeable when 50% of the screen was filled with picture that had no visible pixel structure. I've never been a big fan of digital sharpening so the fact that toning down the settings for E-Shift processing makes image more pleasant to my eye is no surprise. I received a Darblet yesterday so next in line for me is to test sharpening etc. controls on both JVC and Darblet and try to find the sweetspot where I see minimal amount of ill effects of sharpening and combine that with pixel structure remowal functionality of E-Shift2.

You actually bring up a good point above; I mean the fact that E-Shift actually is two separate functionalities. So the often asked question of "how far from you can see the benefits of E-Shift" should be split in 2:
1. How far from you can see the removal of pixel structure, the "4K" resolution and benefit from that?
2. How far from you can see the effects of digital sharpening etc. E-Shift does and would you maybe be served similarly with a Darblet or similar from a bigger viewing distance?

If I turn E-Shift setting to for example "High Resolution" I can see the effects from further out, I don't much like what is done to picture (pile of noise added...) as that is quite pure digital processing, not so much to do with "4K" wannabe pixel density benefits. Zombie's shootout threads illustrates the Sony's reality creation, Darbee etc. very nicely and it is quite obvious part of E-Shift is a variation of those digital processing techniques.

I would actually have all the equipment in place (X3, x55, Darblet, Radiance...) to set up a test at for example 1.5 SW (or 2 SW) if I like better result with X3+Darblet or X55 with E-Shift2. Now if I only had enuff time smile.gif To my setup X55 is clearly better projector (much improved 3D and wide viewing angle), but in academical sense this would interesting to test.
tn1krr is offline  
post #644 of 795 Old 12-12-2012, 04:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
A viewing distance of 0.8 X screen width is very close in deed, I dont know how you can stand that as 2k video looks more like SD than HD at that distance to me, way too soft. I would wont a real 4k projector and real 4k source (not 35mm film sourced) for that viewing distance.

I agree that the two aspects of E-Shift need to be evaluated separately, most if not all people will benefit from clever sharpening be it via E-Shift or some other method (Darbee, HTPC, etc), but the reduction in visible pixel structure is really only for people with wider that typical viewing angles above about 45 degrees.
Owen is offline  
post #645 of 795 Old 12-12-2012, 04:46 AM
Member
 
tn1krr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

A viewing distance of 0.8 X screen width is very close in deed, I dont know how you can stand that as 2k video looks more like SD than HD at that distance to me, way too soft. I would wont a real 4k projector and real 4k source (not 35mm film sourced) for that viewing distance.
I agree that the two aspects of E-Shift need to be evaluated separately, most if not all people will benefit from clever sharpening be it via E-Shift or some other method (Darbee, HTPC, etc), but the reduction in visible pixel structure is really only for people with wider that typical viewing angles above about 45 degrees.
My viewing position is a comfy sofa, so that's why I say 0.8-1SW as it may be as little as 0.8 depending on how I happen to land on that sofa smile.gif You are sort right about the 2K video quality, as once I moved my theater into that room I mostly stopped watching anything but high-quality 1080 video. Also, Now that I have E-Shift it kind of pushed the envelope and anything but pristine 1080 E-Shifted is starting to look a bit soft, once you get used to the brilliant picture I can get with watching Timescapes, Baraka, or TDKR with E-Shift. So once one sees that it can be better the content OK for X3 a few weeks ago is looking bad today. I think It is all about what you have gotten used to and the perception. I'm a huge fan of maximum inversion and wide viewing angle and I've watched and enjoyed some 3D (Captain America, for example) at about 0.6 SW on the that 110" screen using a Fatboy bean bag in front of my normal viewing position. IMO 3D kind of makes the screen appear smaller and that was one reason I wanted to max the screen side for my room.

So like I've tried to communicate in all my messages about the X55/E-Shift2, my preferences and my room are such that it should make E-Shift shine if anything does.
tn1krr is offline  
post #646 of 795 Old 12-13-2012, 11:40 AM
Senior Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

It makes no difference how many pixels are used the ONLY reason the E-Shift models look sharper is because of digital enhancement. The E-Shift element in the light path lowers MTF and ANSI contrast so native projector sharpness is degraded some what.
Edge enhancement of any kind is to be avoided in my experience, selective MTF enhancement is the way to go IMHO and that can be used with any projector with very beneficial results. I have been using such a system utilizing a PC for image processing for about 8 years.

odd enough but i performed some experimentation late last night because i was not as impressed with eshift as i thought i would be. i turned down all MPC controls to zero across 3 of the eshift modes as well as the 'off' mode. when i flipped back and forth between all these eshift modes and the off mode i saw NO difference in the picture pixel structure from less than 1 foot away (though i would agree i did not see much pixel structure at all even with the eshift set to off). no effect on the pixel structure between eshift off and on. kind of disheartening. if i start increasing the MPC controls then i start to see a sharpening and can see some effects from 1.5+sw away. i would liken it to the darbee effect, though more prounounced (i had a darbee in line).
i unfortunately forgot to test if i can get this result even with eshift off but setting the MPC controls to something higher than zero.

all in all, i am wondering if perhaps there is something wrong with my unit's eshift mechanism. i can't believe people would be raving at the results if all units looked like mine. unfortunately i have used 3 out of the 4 hours on the AVS return policy allotment so am hard-pressed to do more testing. will wait to see other folks' impressions here and then likely give Mike a call tomorrow about what to do here.

anyone else test the eshift feature (with MPC controls set to 0) on and off and compare results?
rukus29 is offline  
post #647 of 795 Old 12-13-2012, 02:33 PM
Member
 
tn1krr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post

odd enough but i performed some experimentation late last night because i was not as impressed with eshift as i thought i would be. i turned down all MPC controls to zero across 3 of the eshift modes as well as the 'off' mode. when i flipped back and forth between all these eshift modes and the off mode i saw NO difference in the picture pixel structure from less than 1 foot away (though i would agree i did not see much pixel structure at all even with the eshift set to off). no effect on the pixel structure between eshift off and on. kind of disheartening. if i start increasing the MPC controls then i start to see a sharpening and can see some effects from 1.5+sw away. i would liken it to the darbee effect, though more prounounced (i had a darbee in line).
i unfortunately forgot to test if i can get this result even with eshift off but setting the MPC controls to something higher than zero.
all in all, i am wondering if perhaps there is something wrong with my unit's eshift mechanism. i can't believe people would be raving at the results if all units looked like mine. unfortunately i have used 3 out of the 4 hours on the AVS return policy allotment so am hard-pressed to do more testing. will wait to see other folks' impressions here and then likely give Mike a call tomorrow about what to do here.
anyone else test the eshift feature (with MPC controls set to 0) on and off and compare results?
Did a quick test and turned all controls from MPC "film" mode to 0 (HD and High Resolution modes introduse noise, so they are not usable to me). I can see the pixel structure always about 5 feet out when looking at details.

At my normal viewing distance of about ~1 SW, 8 feet I need really really good quality/specific content to see the difference between MPC "off" and "Film" mode with everything set to 0. With moderate enhancement settings, 30/20/20 everything turn into life, peoples eyes look more clear/alive, textures become more defined, small details start to appear. To me it is seems pretty clear that E-Shift kind of enables the use of these clever sharpening etc. techniques without that many of their traditional ill effects. These observations are all from still images of paused video, I get this feeling that applying these to moving video the effect gets emphasized a bit. At the moment I think I'll be using pretty much only the Film mode, with toned down default setting or will make the sharpening/contrast enhancements with the Darblet with quite loe key effects.
tn1krr is offline  
post #648 of 795 Old 12-13-2012, 06:25 PM
Senior Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

Did a quick test and turned all controls from MPC "film" mode to 0 (HD and High Resolution modes introduse noise, so they are not usable to me). I can see the pixel structure always about 5 feet out when looking at details.
At my normal viewing distance of about ~1 SW, 8 feet I need really really good quality/specific content to see the difference between MPC "off" and "Film" mode with everything set to 0. With moderate enhancement settings, 30/20/20 everything turn into life, peoples eyes look more clear/alive, textures become more defined, small details start to appear. To me it is seems pretty clear that E-Shift kind of enables the use of these clever sharpening etc. techniques without that many of their traditional ill effects. These observations are all from still images of paused video, I get this feeling that applying these to moving video the effect gets emphasized a bit. At the moment I think I'll be using pretty much only the Film mode, with toned down default setting or will make the sharpening/contrast enhancements with the Darblet with quite loe key effects.

Thanks for checking/testing yours. I would think even without mpc (which are digital adjustments) we should at least see some difference between eshift on and off even on non pristine material. To test this can you compare 'film' at 30/20/20 with 'off' at 30/20/20? Can you see a difference? On pristine va not pristine difference? If you can't see a difference then I would have to chalk up any improvement in picture to the use of MPC enhancements rather than eshift device itself.

As an FYI I tried setting all modes to 0/0/0 and couldnt tell a difference with TDK and TDKR, ie i couldn't see a difference on any off or on mode with mpc set to zero, even from 1-2 feet away (wish I tested 'off' at 30/20/20 before I packed it up).

Sorry to keep asking others to test this, but if my unit is jammed I don't want to go outside the 4 hour usage mark.
rukus29 is offline  
post #649 of 795 Old 12-13-2012, 08:04 PM
Member
 
raullopez1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: McFarland CA
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would appreciate if someone with more knowledge than I could answer me a few questions.I will be the proud owner of a 4810 on december 18 and I will like to know what rf glasses and rf emitter are compatible with 4810.I will be purchasing 1 or 2 pairs of the new jvc glasss(pk-AG3) when they become available.I want to buy some cheaper ones for the kids that will work with the new rf emitter.
raullopez1234 is offline  
post #650 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 02:49 AM
Senior Member
 
bbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I have set controls to 0 and did mpc on and mpc off. I can see the pixel structure with MPC off at 1 foot but not with mpc on.

Before doing so I focused the image as the pixel structure is blurred if not fully focused. Possibly yours is not fully focused so there is a small blur which reduces/eliminates pixel structure visibility.


With MPC off and a sharpening image from a calibration disc ( Spears and Munsil) I sharpened the image with MPC off and ended up like another on this forum with 22 ( other had his set at 20).

Seems to give excellent depth and such without ringing or halos.

Then set film mode enhancer to 22 with other 2 controls set to off. To me no difference with eshift on or off with sharpness at 22 for both and 0 for other 2 settings at my 1.4 screen widths seating

Then set Dynamic Contrast to 20 and smoothing to 10. Saw basically no difference. I think it was the scene as it was just a facial closeup. Will play more with these and may just set to 22,20,20 and see how it looks for a while.
bbar is offline  
post #651 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 05:16 AM
Senior Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbar View Post

I have set controls to 0 and did mpc on and mpc off. I can see the pixel structure with MPC off at 1 foot but not with mpc on.
Before doing so I focused the image as the pixel structure is blurred if not fully focused. Possibly yours is not fully focused so there is a small blur which reduces/eliminates pixel structure visibility.
With MPC off and a sharpening image from a calibration disc ( Spears and Munsil) I sharpened the image with MPC off and ended up like another on this forum with 22 ( other had his set at 20).
Seems to give excellent depth and such without ringing or halos.
Then set film mode enhancer to 22 with other 2 controls set to off. To me no difference with eshift on or off with sharpness at 22 for both and 0 for other 2 settings at my 1.4 screen widths seating
Then set Dynamic Contrast to 20 and smoothing to 10. Saw basically no difference. I think it was the scene as it was just a facial closeup. Will play more with these and may just set to 22,20,20 and see how it looks for a while.
bbar, this is great, thanks so much for testing! before trying this i had indeed tried to focus the PJ in as much as possible, so not sure that is the issue, but you never know. is there a specific pattern you use for this? i just looked at the word 'focus' on the jvc screen when adjusting until I got to a place that worsened it when I moved the slider in either direction. How long did you warm your PJ up for before setting focus?

As I had thought though, even at 1.4 for you, you did not see any difference without the software enhancement controls as long as you increased sharpness even when eshift was off. this tells me (as Owen says above) that people can achieve same results if JVC simply built the PJs without eshift but gave us the MPC enhancement controls.
(as long as they are 1.4sw and beyond, maybe even less than 1.4sw if others who sit closer test it)
in either case i think I will call AVS to see if I can either get an extension on the 4 hour policy or ask for a fresh replacement.

thanks again bbar and tn1krr!
rukus29 is offline  
post #652 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 05:19 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,742
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 373 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post

odd enough but i performed some experimentation late last night because i was not as impressed with eshift as i thought i would be. i turned down all MPC controls to zero across 3 of the eshift modes as well as the 'off' mode. when i flipped back and forth between all these eshift modes and the off mode i saw NO difference in the picture pixel structure from less than 1 foot away (though i would agree i did not see much pixel structure at all even with the eshift set to off). no effect on the pixel structure between eshift off and on. kind of disheartening. if i start increasing the MPC controls then i start to see a sharpening and can see some effects from 1.5+sw away. i would liken it to the darbee effect, though more prounounced (i had a darbee in line).
i unfortunately forgot to test if i can get this result even with eshift off but setting the MPC controls to something higher than zero.
all in all, i am wondering if perhaps there is something wrong with my unit's eshift mechanism. i can't believe people would be raving at the results if all units looked like mine. unfortunately i have used 3 out of the 4 hours on the AVS return policy allotment so am hard-pressed to do more testing. will wait to see other folks' impressions here and then likely give Mike a call tomorrow about what to do here.
anyone else test the eshift feature (with MPC controls set to 0) on and off and compare results?

Give JVC customer support a call 800-252-5722. If you are not seeing pixel structure from 1' away, it does not sound like you are getting E-shift turned off.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #653 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 06:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Geof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Eden NY
Posts: 6,012
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Setting MPC controls to 0 does not turn eshift off.
To turn eshift off you need to select 4K Profile = Off.

You can verify this two ways:
Turning 4K Profile to Off makes the pixel grid visible and you'll also notice that the "Fan Noise" is significantly reduced with eshift turned off. I do not know if the additional noise with ehsift turned on is due to the eshuft mechanism itself or due to a fan that may provide additional cooling for the eshift electronics but in any event the projector is quieter with eshift turned off.

Those three MPC sliders (Enhance, Dynamic Contrast, & Smoothing) are always active in any 4K Profile mode (even Off). Their effects can be emphasized or not depending on the control setting (0 to 100).

Make sure you're at your seated position when adjusting because what's visible 2' from the screen may not be visible 12' from the screen unless you crank up the MPC controls.

Geof
Geof is online now  
post #654 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 07:25 AM
Senior Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Give JVC customer support a call 800-252-5722. If you are not seeing pixel structure from 1' away, it does not sound like you are getting E-shift turned off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Setting MPC controls to 0 does not turn eshift off.
To turn eshift off you need to select 4K Profile = Off.
You can verify this two ways:
Turning 4K Profile to Off makes the pixel grid visible and you'll also notice that the "Fan Noise" is significantly reduced with eshift turned off. I do not know if the additional noise with ehsift turned on is due to the eshuft mechanism itself or due to a fan that may provide additional cooling for the eshift electronics but in any event the projector is quieter with eshift turned off.
Those three MPC sliders (Enhance, Dynamic Contrast, & Smoothing) are always active in any 4K Profile mode (even Off). Their effects can be emphasized or not depending on the control setting (0 to 100).
Make sure you're at your seated position when adjusting because what's visible 2' from the screen may not be visible 12' from the screen unless you crank up the MPC controls.

Mike - I am going to give you a call this morning as well to quickly discuss before I call JVC as well. Just want to make sure I fully understand my options at this poin so would appreciate your thoughts.

Geof, I understand what the profile on/off should do, but it is apparent to me that at least on my machine it does not appear to be doing the proper thing.
rukus29 is offline  
post #655 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 08:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Geof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Eden NY
Posts: 6,012
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 33
So are you saying that there is no discernible difference in "fan noise" with the 4K Profile turned on and turned off? If the apparent fan noise changes with 4K Profile on or off is it possible that the pixel grid is not showing because of a sharpness issue?

Geof
Geof is online now  
post #656 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 10:07 AM
Senior Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

So are you saying that there is no discernible difference in "fan noise" with the 4K Profile turned on and turned off? If the apparent fan noise changes with 4K Profile on or off is it possible that the pixel grid is not showing because of a sharpness issue?

unfortunately i didnt check fan noise because i was standing <1ft from screen while switching from off to on and back, etc. and PJ is ~13ft from screen.

at this point i am hesitant to turn the PJ back on for further testing given i am at 3 hours of usage per the info menu and AVS policy I believe limits use under the return policy to 4 hours. will be making some calls this afternoon to get everything worked out.

theoretically, how would i test sharpness? when i set focus i set it so that the text 'focus' was crisp from both 1ft and 12ft away.
rukus29 is offline  
post #657 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 10:19 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 19,946
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 446 Post(s)
Liked: 490
Forgive me for not following the whole previos discussion, but because of the pixel overlap with eshift one, there is no grid to observe. To see the grid one would need space between the pixels as when just a 1080p image is displayed.

My understanding of the return policy is that the 5 hours is no questions asked, you just didn't like it. If the machine is defective the five hours doesn't apply. Give Mike G a call.

Hope this helps.

Mark Haflich

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #658 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 10:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Geof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Eden NY
Posts: 6,012
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Forgive me for not following the whole previos discussion, but because of the pixel overlap with eshift one, there is no grid to observe. To see the grid one would need space between the pixels as when just a 1080p image is displayed.
My understanding of the return policy is that the 5 hours is no questions asked, you just didn't like it. If the machine is defective the five hours doesn't apply. Give Mike G a call.
Hope this helps.
The point was that with the 4K profile turned OFF the pixel grid should be visible (it is on mine, but only in the 4K Profile = Off mode). Also, there is additional "fan noise" when the 4K profile mode is set to anything other than Off (In fact the "fan" sounds significantly louder when the 4K Profile is engaged). Ergo, if one cannot see the grid with 4K Profile = Off one should be able to tell if eshift is indeed on or off by the level of fan noise.

Geof
Geof is online now  
post #659 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 10:32 AM
Member
 
holmern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Well this is frustrating.. just picked up my projector. And I got another 4 hours left of the workday.. and then the gym. Going to be a looong 5 hours before I go home.

holmern is offline  
post #660 of 795 Old 12-14-2012, 10:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Geof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Eden NY
Posts: 6,012
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by holmern View Post

Well this is frustrating.. just picked up my projector. And I got another 4 hours left of the workday.. and then the gym. Going to be a looong 5 hours before I go home.
The frustrating part is over (the long Sept-Dec wait). Now you're in the foreplay stage...cool.gif When you fire it up the foreplay stage turns to ...well you get the idea...

Geof
Geof is online now  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Jvc Dla Rs48 D Ila Projector , Jvc Dla X70 Projector

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off