New JVC DLA-X75R/DLA-RS56 $7,999 projector with 3D RF glasses and E-shift CEDIA 2012 - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 447 Old 04-13-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

JohnStatt,

Thanks for the excellent and very timely info. I was going to do the fine multi-zone convergence just to check it out. I still might just to see the results. I understand one can switch the results of multi-zone fine tuning of convergence on and off (?).

I don't think you can switch it on/off. You can choose whether the adjustments you make are pixel or fine, but I don't think switching this cancels out the zone adjustments....I may be wrong and will have to test this when I next fire it up. The effect of resolution loss is less if the adjustments you make are smaller. For example a fine adjustment of 1 will only cause a double pixel periodically. Obviously the panels are not really moving, so its all a bit of trickery with which sub pixels to pair to each other. It is clever stuff to be honest and JVCs implementation is a good one. But just to be on the safe side I would use the strategy I mentioned above and use zone adjustments away from centre.
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post #272 of 447 Old 04-13-2013, 11:43 AM
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Thanks again for the response...that's what I was afraid off...I'll figure out something for the kid.

Regards, Omar
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post #273 of 447 Old 04-13-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post


Since the line is due for the standard 2 year refresh, I'm really curious what JVC has up it's sleeve for this coming fall.

+ 1 as well. I have the JVC RS35 and it is a wonderful projector. Only thing is, as a black level fanatic, I would like to see some excellent improvements in contrast and black levels from JVC. Perhaps a native contrast ratio of 200,000:1 for their flagship projector would be a nice improvement. Here's hoping. smile.gif
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post #274 of 447 Old 04-13-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules View Post

+ 1 as well. I have the JVC RS35 and it is a wonderful projector. Only thing is, as a black level fanatic, I would like to see some excellent improvements in contrast and black levels from JVC. Perhaps a native contrast ratio of 200,000:1 for their flagship projector would be a nice improvement. Here's hoping. smile.gif

Actually we are already on the third year of the same chassis. JVC deviated from their normal 2 year refresh this year.
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post #275 of 447 Old 04-13-2013, 01:59 PM
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Just watched Zero Dark Thirty. Last night it was Life of Pi. I'm so impressed with the image quality over my RS25. I'm not using any eShift, but find the picture incredibly sharp. Life of Pi(2D) was stunning and the night scenes in Zero Dark Thirty exhibited a level of shadow detail I've not seen before. I'm very impressed with the color accuracy even with my limited adjustments, but will have it professionally calibrated next month.
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post #276 of 447 Old 04-13-2013, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SirJohnFalstaff View Post

Just watched Zero Dark Thirty. Last night it was Life of Pi. I'm so impressed with the image quality over my RS25. I'm not using any eShift, but find the picture incredibly sharp. Life of Pi(2D) was stunning and the night scenes in Zero Dark Thirty exhibited a level of shadow detail I've not seen before. I'm very impressed with the color accuracy even with my limited adjustments, but will have it professionally calibrated next month.

Watching Zero Dark Thirty tonite smile.gif Watched The Hobbit a few days ago, looked superb. I still seem to find that one movie looks great and another not so great. I know it can come down to mastering but also feel like MPC can either aid or hinder PQ. Just hit 100 hours on my machine , I must have missed watching movies!

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post #277 of 447 Old 04-13-2013, 08:45 PM
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It's interesting to read of the purported ansi or other image (resolution) compromises with the E-shift JVCs. I had the RS20 for a while with my RS55, and I sold my RS20 to my friend and I often watch movies at his place. Whatever compromises show up in objective tests, the subjective impression of living with the E-shift JVC is a decidedly more dynamic image. I never got as realistic an image with my RS20 in terms of apparent contrast and sharpness as I can achieve with the RS55.

Though I still think that my RS20 had a bit more film-like look, as subjective as that term may be.

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post #278 of 447 Old 04-13-2013, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by turtletrax View Post

Watching Zero Dark Thirty tonite smile.gif Watched The Hobbit a few days ago, looked superb. I still seem to find that one movie looks great and another not so great. I know it can come down to mastering but also feel like MPC can either aid or hinder PQ. Just hit 100 hours on my machine , I must have missed watching movies!
I found that it was the movie, rather than the projector. Some movies are so crystal clear with the Eshift, while others don't look as good.
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post #279 of 447 Old 04-13-2013, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I found that it was the movie, rather than the projector. Some movies are so crystal clear with the Eshift, while others don't look as good.

I fully agree with your statement, I just fail to understand why. It should make improvements across the board, where I find it spotty.

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post #280 of 447 Old 04-14-2013, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by turtletrax View Post

I fully agree with your statement, I just fail to understand why. It should make improvements across the board, where I find it spotty.
I heard the same thing with the Sony 4K projector. The best transfers are amazing and some are not so good. Enhances the flaws. Like watching Skyfall then watching The Grey. Skyfall looked absolutely stunning, while The Grey looked like its was not even in HD. I racked up a ton of movies last year after selling my rs55 and waiting for the rs48. Most of the movies were not as clear and crisp as I wanted. I found myself enjoying the picture quality of the movie more than the movie itself.
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post #281 of 447 Old 04-14-2013, 10:40 AM
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The source material definitely has something to do with it. We watched Les Miserables last night and the picture quality wasn't nearly as good as Pi or Zero. Then this morning I watched Lincoln and was blown away yet again. Oddly enough, I was playing around with the eShift setting during Zero Dark Thirty, but saw no real advantages to keeping it on, so I disabled it once again. I guess I'd better start trying it out on more movies. Just reached 22 hours so I think it's time for more movies!

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post #282 of 447 Old 04-14-2013, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

It's interesting to read of the purported ansi or other image (resolution) compromises with the E-shift JVCs. I had the RS20 for a while with my RS55, and I sold my RS20 to my friend and I often watch movies at his place. Whatever compromises show up in objective tests, the subjective impression of living with the E-shift JVC is a decidedly more dynamic image. I never got as realistic an image with my RS20 in terms of apparent contrast and sharpness as I can achieve with the RS55.

Though I still think that my RS20 had a bit more film-like look, as subjective as that term may be.

I'm not sure if this has already been posted, but according to reviews, there is no ANSI contrast loss on the e-shift projectors released this year:

http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/jvc-dla-x30b.shtml (ansi contrast 320:1).

http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/jvc-dla-x70-90rb.shtml (ansi contrast 195:1)

http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/jvc-dla-x95rbe.shtml (ansi contrast 344:1)
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post #283 of 447 Old 04-14-2013, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SirJohnFalstaff View Post

The source material definitely has something to do with it. We watched Les Miserables last night and the picture quality wasn't nearly as good as Pi or Zero. Then this morning I watched Lincoln and was blown away yet again. Oddly enough, I was playing around with the eShift setting during Zero Dark Thirty, but saw no real advantages to keeping it on, so I disabled it once again. I guess I'd better start trying it out on more movies. Just reached 22 hours so I think it's time for more movies!

I am at 40 hrs but limited in the movies, probably 20 hours. Great Projector, I have the eshift on Film, but i did think that 3D stuff is better with Highresolution despite the edgenahacement and noise it created. The overall image to me looked more desireable. I agree though, watch more and eventually it will be clear smile.gif


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post #284 of 447 Old 04-15-2013, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

I'm not sure if this has already been posted, but according to reviews, there is no ANSI contrast loss on the e-shift projectors released this year:

http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/jvc-dla-x30b.shtml (ansi contrast 320:1).

http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/jvc-dla-x70-90rb.shtml (ansi contrast 195:1)

http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/jvc-dla-x95rbe.shtml (ansi contrast 344:1)

Indeed and thanks for the links. I did mention it briefly in this thread in relation to JVC explaining that the additional "servo" type noise you hear with the latest models is related to their modifications of the e-shift technology with the upside being that there is no now ANSI loss. JVC explained that they used an LCD device to shift the pixels in e-shift 1 (I assume rotating the crystals to cause a change in refraction). They say they no longer do it this way but have not stated what they do instead!

So E-shift 2 is more clever/advanced this year in terms of being inserted into the light output chain without affecting ANSI, but many argue that the algorithms are more destructive. Either you tame back the adjustment sliders so far that you can't see any difference at all....or the sliders are set so that the effect becomes visible, but there are visible artifacts that go with it. With e-shift 1 the effect was fairly easy to spot and there seemed to be little to no side effects. Having said that, I agree with Zombie that the Film at its defaults seems to be the closest. I am not sure about the smoothing adjustment yet though. E-shift 1 had Edge enhancement and Contrast enhancement but to my understanding, not smoothing. E-shift 2 has an additional smoothing option that makes out of focus areas ever so slightly more out of focus. This helps to add depth and clarity to the "in focus" areas. So in fact E-Shift 2 at Film with sliders set to 50,50,0 is probably the nearest.

One of the main gains of e-shift 1 that people described was giving a DLP look to an LCoS projector. I agree with this. I think E-shift 2 can also achieve this on the Film setting and I would still rather have this feature than not!


Side note: Has anyone spotted that this year the remote controls are made of hard plastic rather than with a soft rubbery coating? Perhaps this is cheaper to make, but I prefer it. The rubber coatings tend to absorb finger grease and look grubby after a time. I found trying to clean it even with detergent could not return the finish to its original state.
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post #285 of 447 Old 04-15-2013, 10:15 AM
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I heard the same thing with the Sony 4K projector. The best transfers are amazing and some are not so good. Enhances the flaws. Like watching Skyfall then watching The Grey. Skyfall looked absolutely stunning, while The Grey looked like its was not even in HD. I racked up a ton of movies last year after selling my rs55 and waiting for the rs48. Most of the movies were not as clear and crisp as I wanted. I found myself enjoying the picture quality of the movie more than the movie itself.

The better the projector, the more ruthless it is showing exactly what is on the disc transfer wise. I can live with that myself.

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post #286 of 447 Old 04-15-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View PostThe better the projector, the more ruthless it is showing exactly what is on the disc transfer wise. I can live with that myself.

I wish JVC would make an LED or Laser Projector, I am done with buying Mercury Lamp based projectors.

 

I have the RS1 & RS35U so when someone comes out with a good LED or Laser based projector I am getting that! I wonder how many people feel the same?


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post #287 of 447 Old 04-15-2013, 10:59 AM
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I wish JVC would make an LED or Laser Projector, I am done with buying Mercury Lamp based projectors.

I have the RS1 & RS35U so when someone comes out with a good LED or Laser based projector I am getting that! I wonder how many people feel the same?


Me! Lol.

The X75 will happily hold me over 'till LED/Laser 4K hits the 8-10K range. This is if they dont kill physical media by then. If they do I will just stick with FP displays and call it a day.

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Me! Lol.

The X75 will happily hold me over 'till LED/Laser 4K hits the 8-10K range. This is if they dont kill physical media by then. If they do I will just stick with FP displays and call it a day.

I second that. I want at least 5 years out of my machine and hope to replace it with an LED or laser model when they get perfected. I think they'll always be a market for physical media--we just don't have the infrastucture to provide blu-ray quality downloads to everyone.

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post #289 of 447 Old 04-15-2013, 01:09 PM
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That's why I am staying with 35U until the time comes with Laser LED projectors

 

 

- Viewsonic PRO9000

http://www.viewsonic.com/us/pro9000.html

 

- Panasonic PT-RZ470

http://panasonic.net/avc/projector/products/rz470/

 

I know not yet ready for HT but close

 

I think JVC is not interested as they make substantial money on Lamps :)


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post #290 of 447 Old 04-15-2013, 03:00 PM
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Having said that, where satellite HD can often be marginal at best, I have found e-shift 2 to be hugely beneficial over e-shift 1 in putting a bit of snap to the image.
Thats interesting Jon as I watch a lot of satellite HD. I've never seen e-shift 2 so I'm interested in the improvements e-shift 2 makes here compared to e-shift 1.

The thing I like most about the JVC's e-shift projectors (except for the obvious exceptional contrast) is its ability to make a relatively poor sky tv transmission look film like, and the e-shift really helps give it a solid look. These pics can't show the moving pictures obviously, and its never going to look super sharp being only 1080i but prior to getting my X90 I would have said sky tv is watchable on the big screen - now I find it more than watchable, its really enjoyable. These shots are at 132" scope screen size so any issues are magnified. Any other projector I've had (and there's been a few!) you could clearly see how e-shift takes sky HD to another level.







Hopefully these pics help describe what I mean. The digital look is greatly diminished with the e-shift enabled and the blended pixels just make it feel much more natural. I'm now interested to understand what e-shift 2 brings to the party when watching satellite tv so very interested to hear your comments Jon.
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post #291 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 12:11 AM
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Thats interesting Jon as I watch a lot of satellite HD. I've never seen e-shift 2 so I'm interested in the improvements e-shift 2 makes here compared to e-shift 1.

Hopefully these pics help describe what I mean. The digital look is greatly diminished with the e-shift enabled and the blended pixels just make it feel much more natural. I'm now interested to understand what e-shift 2 brings to the party when watching satellite tv so very interested to hear your comments Jon.

Your pics were very clear and in terms of your question, I guess it depends on what you are "hoping" to get out of e-shift; an image with more "pop" or an image that looks less digital, or a bit of both! Sky satellite HD fundamentally looks soft and lacking in the depth and clarity of detail that Blu-ray is able to provide. I have a relatively small screensize and I found that with e-shift 1 with MPC=3 that it still wasn't quite enough to give that "pop" I was looking for. I noticed that the sharpness control interacted with MPC on the e-shift 1. In particular just a few notches of sharpness seemed to provide a multiplier effect to what e-shift was adding. But as you would expect, the sharpness control had some pretty severe artifacts to go along with it. I agree fundamentally with you that e-shift 1 did enhance while not making things look too digital....it just wasn't enough for me with satellite.

E-shift 2 is an odd beast, because it seems to be a much harder implementation to balance. Despite having a more "intelligent" filtering of which pixels it affects and which it doesn't, it seems to unfortunately reveal artifacts more easily. On my screensize though, I find that the Film mode when used for Blu-rays gets close to the effect I saw with e-shift 1. With satellite, as I mentioned e-shift 1 didn't have enough range in its settings to satisfy me. E-shift 2 has a much wider adjustment range either by cranking up Film mode, or by stepping down "High Definition". But when set correctly it gives Satellite HD feeds considerably more pop without the severe artifacts of sharpness/e-shift 1 in combination. However, I wouldn't say it looks less digital. I think it also depends on whether you are watching a TV show or drama, vs watching a movie as I would probably step down e-shift with the latter.

So in summary I think you and I may have had different goals over what we wanted out of e-shift for Satellite HD.As others have said, I think e-shift 2 introduces artifacts a little too easily, but I do think its benefits when set optimally are worth it. JVC have tried to provide a significant level of customization but it is VERY hard to get those settings right. When you press the MPC button a second time it shows you how that mode (e.g. Film, or High Resolution) will react to the 3 sliders (Enhance, Contrast, Smoothness). It shows your current image represented as specifically coloured pixels. Blue/green means it will apply enhance, Red/yellow means it will apply contrast. And black is where it applies smoothness. High Resolution mode for example, doesn't seem to respond to smoothness at all while Film mode does. If you set all the sliders to 0 on all the modes, then from what I can see, they are all the same. The mode only seems to determine the degree to which the sliders respond.
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post #292 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 02:06 AM
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Great reply as ever Jon and your right in saying it all depends on what we are after and what we want for the image. I've never really thought about using sharpness with sky tv as when I got the X90, I put eshift on and was instantly happy as it just looked much better. I usually use MPC 2 or 3, but I'll maybe try some sharpening too now that you mention it. I guess that when it comes to a satellite feed, there is value in adding in small artifacts if it gets you an overall benefit and I'm certainly not adverse to doing that sort of thing. If it looks good to my eyes then thats all that matters. Sounds like you've given each e-shift 2 settings a thorough examination and understand how to get the most out of each source using the settings so its good to have those features - I'm going to have a little play with my e-shift 1 and sharpening but I would certainly like to have a few more options as its sounds interesting.
But yes, the main advantage I see is that the image looks more solid than any projector I've had before and thats the key for me. I'm not expecting good sharpness but the solidness makes it much better (but if you can get extra sharpness too with minimal artifacts well that will be another bonus!)

An interesting thing for me is image perception. I had my eyes tested at the Doctor recently and she asked me to read the middle line on the eye chart. I went straight to the last line and quickly read it back and forward with both eyes and then with each eye individually. I said its a pity there wasn't another line below to make it a bit harder!
So my eyesight is pretty good. The interesting thing though is that with a DLP, I can see pixels on my screen from 10ft away - at seating distance 13ft I can't see them. But, even though I think I can't see them, can I see them but not resolve them if you know what I me. Can I sort of see them? I don't know the answer. On the JVC, I can't see pixels from 10ft at all with eshift disabled yet with eshift enabled, it makes quite a big difference, even though I can't notice the pixels from where I'm sitting.
This pic is the BenQ W1070 DLP showing sky tv and you can see the poor quality very clearly and this is where e-shift takes things to a new level - it makes these poor images so much better.

8555133189_90430433d4_b.jpg
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post #293 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 02:26 AM
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An interesting thing for me is image perception. I had my eyes tested at the Doctor recently and she asked me to read the middle line on the eye chart. I went straight to the last line and quickly read it back and forward with both eyes and then with each eye individually. I said its a pity there wasn't another line below to make it a bit harder!
So my eyesight is pretty good. The interesting thing though is that with a DLP, I can see pixels on my screen from 10ft away - at seating distance 13ft I can't see them. But, even though I think I can't see them, can I see them but not resolve them if you know what I me. Can I sort of see them? I don't know the answer. On the JVC, I can't see pixels from 10ft at all with eshift disabled yet with eshift enabled, it makes quite a big difference, even though I can't notice the pixels from where I'm sitting.

Ah...you have brought up my latest topic that I have been theorising. Can you be seeing something without being totally aware you are seeing it? I am convinced the answer is yes. It is no secret that the previous generation X30/70/90 projectors had much brighter 3D output than their predecessors but worse crosstalk issues. Just prior to getting the X75, I watched a few scenes with a friend from the cliché Avatar title on an X70. Now in that movie you are very rarely aware of crosstalk due to the complex textures in most scenes. It is a very enjoyable 3D experience as we all know. After installing the X75 with that same friend, we both had immediate comments that the sense of depth was improved. On the face of it, that makes no sense. The brightness was the same, the parallax settings were the same, the blu-ray player was the same. We know if you can see crosstalk, that it absolutely does diminish your perception of 3D as the effect is partially compromised by having visible crosstalk not to mention distracting. But in Avatar you couldn't see crosstalk, yet still the perception is improved. We were both so convinced of this fact, that this leads me to believe the eyes/brain do see things, and process them in some way, but because they are below a threshold, they are not brought into the consciousness so you are not acutely aware of them. Another example is with e-shift. Sometimes you can pause a scene and flick e-shift on/off and either convince yourself you can see a difference or not (as sometimes that difference is quite minor). But when you play the TV programme or movie for 15 seconds with it on/off you become more aware that the image is more dynamic or crisp with e-shift on...yet you can't point to a tangible bit of the screen and highlight pixel x and y from your seat and say "that's why". It is the sum of all parts of the visual display that defines our perception and enjoyment but each part alone may fall below the threshold of being brought into our conscious observation.

I think it would be very hard to justify an upgrade from an X70 to an X75 based on e-shift mk2..especially as it has the videophile community divided on its merits. If you were to toy with the idea you absolutely must audition it prior to purchase and not go by any stated opinions on the forums alone.
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post #294 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 03:10 AM
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Its an interesting concept alright and I think there is something there that says we can see even though when we can't resolve it absolutely. Zombie coined a phrase for e-shift saying it makes 'the image look more solid'. For me, thats a good way to describe it and it fits with how my eyes see it. At close up to screen level we can see the difference with pixels but at seating distance we can't. But it's still different - more solid. When I press pause and look at ehift on and off and compare to watching moving content on and off, I notice the benefit more when its moving than when its paused. I don't exactly understand why but its how my eyes perceive it.

This leads into the debate of 4k - seating distance - screen size ratio. The theory is that you need to sit quite close in terms of these ratio's to see the benefit but I'm not sure if I agree with that theory. I think there is an argument to say it goes beyond the technical understanding of how our eyes work and there's more to it than that.
When I play golf with my friends and a ball goes into the rough 250-300 yards away, its me that is able to find the ball more often than not as I see where it lands and can highlight where it entered the long grass. We all have good eyesight yet we track it in the air differently and they start looking somewhere and I'm like, its over here somewhere guys. Not that looking down a golf hole is the same as looking at a screen a matter of feet away is a good example, or that I was born with the eyes of a hawk, but it shows how people's eyes behave differently when looking at the same thing.
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post #295 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 07:54 AM
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soupdragon, I forgot do you have a Darblet in your system? If you do wouldn't it be better to experiment with it and your eShift1 process rather than with the sharpening control?
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post #296 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 08:37 AM
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Hi RonF - yes, I've got a Darblet in my system and I use it on HD but varies from 20-50 depending on content. I was going to try and use sharpening along with Darbee to see how that works. Sometimes Darbee enhances the grainy effect so was thinking that sharpening could possibly help here without increase grain noise. I've not tried it though so not sure if this would work or not?
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post #297 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 09:45 AM
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I know this does not belong here but now you can buy a 4K TV for less than $1,500

 

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/seiki-sets-pricing-benchmark-for-ultra-hdtv-with-its-50-inch-led-4k2k-model-1778809.htm

 

 

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7674736&Sku=S874-5004

 

Soon projectors will come down to :)

 


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post #298 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soupdragon View Post

Its an interesting concept alright and I think there is something there that says we can see even though when we can't resolve it absolutely. Zombie coined a phrase for e-shift saying it makes 'the image look more solid'. For me, thats a good way to describe it and it fits with how my eyes see it. At close up to screen level we can see the difference with pixels but at seating distance we can't. But it's still different - more solid. When I press pause and look at ehift on and off and compare to watching moving content on and off, I notice the benefit more when its moving than when its paused. I don't exactly understand why but its how my eyes perceive it.

imo, many reviewers missed the mark last year on describing the benefits of e-shift. Perhaps their screens were too small.

To state that it only eliminates the SDE isn't telling the whole story. Smoothscreen eliminates the pixel structure, but most critical viewers wouldn't mistake the Panasonic 8000 for any of the e-shift models from last year or current. cool.gif

The image does become more solid, the overlapping of the pixels increases the pixel density, so there is a perception of increased contrast and overall detail. I can easily see the difference sitting 1.25 sw from my 142" 16:9. I have a preference for e-shift (both versions) vs. reality creation. RC is more obvious at first and it's understandable why it's so popular. Upon closer inspection though, it's difficult to dial it down (ie. overcooked) on certain content whereas I never turn off the e-shift.


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post #299 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 12:38 PM
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I zoom my RS55 to all manner of sizes and it's amazing how smooth and dense the image remains. "Refined" at any size is the word that comes to mind.

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post #300 of 447 Old 04-16-2013, 04:14 PM
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Interesting for those who use anamorphic lenses, basically a waist of money !

 

http://www.andrew-robinson-online.com/is-anamorphic-still-relevant/

 

http://www.andrew-robinson-online.com/is-anamorphic-still-relevant-part-ii-does-using-an-anamorphic-lens-really-yield-a-brighter-image/


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