New JVC DLA-X75R/DLA-RS56 $7,999 projector with 3D RF glasses and E-shift CEDIA 2012 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 447 Old 06-21-2013, 01:51 PM
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Well, that worked, but what a PITA. Anyone doing professional calibrations should be aware of this 'issue' with this f/w version since your calibration won't survive boot unaltered.

Here's what I observed post boot, after using the method I describe above:



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post #362 of 447 Old 06-21-2013, 02:27 PM
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can you post the full saturation report? you should be more concerned with what's going on under the curve.

For reference, this is an X35 I recently calibrated. There's no CMS to adjust, but the tracking is better than I was expecting.

RS46-cal3.jpg
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post #363 of 447 Old 06-21-2013, 10:33 PM
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Hello,
I would like to check my firwares too, how to go into the service menu ?
thanks
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post #364 of 447 Old 06-22-2013, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Well, that worked, but what a PITA. Anyone doing professional calibrations should be aware of this 'issue' with this f/w version since your calibration won't survive boot unaltered.

I did think of that workaround and then thought, nah, too much effort to do that. Well done for persevering!

I am really confused about your CMS chart. Your green started off inside the triangle like everyone elses. You managed to move it outwards! Technically that is impossible as the original starting points represent the max saturation points for that colourspace. You can only bring a colour point inwards from its starting point, never outwards. So I am truly puzzled how you managed to do that. Setting the greyscale accurately does help nail the CMS points a bit better, but still you are the first person to get green nailed.
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post #365 of 447 Old 06-22-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I did think of that workaround and then thought, nah, too much effort to do that. Well done for persevering!

I am really confused about your CMS chart. Your green started off inside the triangle like everyone elses. You managed to move it outwards! Technically that is impossible as the original starting points represent the max saturation points for that colourspace. You can only bring a colour point inwards from its starting point, never outwards. So I am truly puzzled how you managed to do that. Setting the greyscale accurately does help nail the CMS points a bit better, but still you are the first person to get green nailed.

I was scratching my head at the green as well. Best guess: I think that there was some interaction with both Hue and Brightness controls + more accurate grey and it just ended up working.
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post #366 of 447 Old 06-22-2013, 12:52 PM
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the calibration's not done until you check the full saturation. 100% could look great, the rest could be way off which is what really counts. no way to know without checking.
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post #367 of 447 Old 06-30-2013, 09:22 PM
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Can anyone suggest what they are using for a ceiling mount? So far I am having a hard time finding something. I tried the Sanus VMPR1 and it wont work. I was thinking about the Sanus VP1, Thanks.

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post #368 of 447 Old 06-30-2013, 09:58 PM
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My installer used a Chief mount...I don't have the exact model handy though.

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post #369 of 447 Old 06-30-2013, 11:18 PM
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Looks like mostly Cheif mounts are being used. Just looking to wondering if anyones had any success with anything else.

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post #370 of 447 Old 07-01-2013, 05:52 AM
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I documented the exact parts I used when mounting my RS56 in this post from my basement build thread.

FWIW I found figuring out what Chief mount parts to use overly confusing ...

Kal
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post #371 of 447 Old 07-01-2013, 08:33 AM
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Kal,

 

Thanks, that's what I got with the help of Mike and your post to clear things up. Your post from that link is great.

 

Thanks,

Pete

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post #372 of 447 Old 07-09-2013, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

There is a work around here since the offset values aren't completely ignored. Basically, every time you make an Offset adjustment, you exit the Color temp fine controls, change the main Color Temp setting from Custom 1 (or whatever you are using) to Custom 2, then back, then measure.

I'm power cycling the projector right now to test the greyscale, as I just tried using the technique above.

My dealer just let me know that he was contacted by JVC about this issue. They are aware of the issue I reported, and are working on a fix with the intent to release an update.

As an unrelated note, I went through and did another greyscale and CMS calibration run now with about 100 hours on the bulb. I wasn't able to get as accurate, (though still quite good) presumably because the bulb has drifted a bit.
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post #373 of 447 Old 07-09-2013, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

My dealer just let me know that he was contacted by JVC about this issue. They are aware of the issue I reported, and are working on a fix with the intent to release an update.

As an unrelated note, I went through and did another greyscale and CMS calibration run now with about 100 hours on the bulb. I wasn't able to get as accurate, (though still quite good) presumably because the bulb has drifted a bit.

The bulb drifting should not affect your ability to get the accurate results. It will change "how" you get those results (e.g. The gains and offsets will be different), but you should be able to maintain the same accuracy.

I still don't understand why I have 29.004 firmware and yet its not available to download anywhere. Clearly they have already fixed some things with it.
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post #374 of 447 Old 07-10-2013, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbo View Post

Looks like mostly Cheif mounts are being used. Just looking to wondering if anyones had any success with anything else.

I used a Peerless with no trouble.
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post #375 of 447 Old 07-10-2013, 08:54 AM
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I have just caught up with this thread. I installed my X75 a month or so ago. First projector so on a learning curve. I calibrated (off the lens rather than the screen) with Chromapure and X-Rite i1 meter using the CMS of Radiance XE and 125 point color gamut. I started in User 1 mode with standard color and 6500K. Results are below. I had some pretty ugly pre-calibration settings but really not sure why based on comments in this thread. I will probably have to redo as I need to reassess my initial set up after reading this thread. First I need to get rid of the keystone adjustments and just use vertical shift. I also had the environmental control on when I calibrated. Not sure that would make a difference. In general I've been irrritated by fuzziness in some BRs. I am not sure if it has to do with eshift issues or what. I thought I had turned eshift off but am not sure now after reading the discussion here.

Regards.


CalibrationSummaryDetailed 7-5-13 Manual v2 1.pdf 130k .pdf file


CalibrationSummaryDetailed 7-5-13 Manual v2 3.pdf 112k .pdf file


CalibrationSummaryDetailed 7-5-13 Manual v2 4.pdf 175k .pdf file


CalibrationSummaryDetailed 7-5-13 Manual v2 5.pdf 1760k .pdf file


CalibrationSummaryDetailed 7-5-13 Manual v2 6.pdf 132k .pdf file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf CalibrationSummaryDetailed 7-5-13 Manual v2 1.pdf (129.8 KB, 20 views)
File Type: pdf CalibrationSummaryDetailed 7-5-13 Manual v2 3.pdf (112.5 KB, 17 views)
File Type: pdf CalibrationSummaryDetailed 7-5-13 Manual v2 4.pdf (175.2 KB, 12 views)
File Type: pdf CalibrationSummaryDetailed 7-5-13 Manual v2 5.pdf (1.72 MB, 14 views)
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post #376 of 447 Old 07-10-2013, 09:01 AM
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Speaking of using vertical shift to line up the image, my projector is ceiling mounted and is about 17 inches above the center of the screen (58" screen height in total). I might be able to lower it a bit but not much. Will that be too much vertical shift to get the image centered vertically? thanks for any comments.
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post #377 of 447 Old 07-11-2013, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D View Post

I have just caught up with this thread. I installed my X75 a month or so ago. First projector so on a learning curve. I calibrated (off the lens rather than the screen) with Chromapure and X-Rite i1 meter using the CMS of Radiance XE and 125 point color gamut. I started in User 1 mode with standard color and 6500K. Results are below. I had some pretty ugly pre-calibration settings but really not sure why based on comments in this thread. I will probably have to redo as I need to reassess my initial set up after reading this thread. First I need to get rid of the keystone adjustments and just use vertical shift. I also had the environmental control on when I calibrated. Not sure that would make a difference. In general I've been irrritated by fuzziness in some BRs. I am not sure if it has to do with eshift issues or what. I thought I had turned eshift off but am not sure now after reading the discussion here.

None of your starting points look right to me. I think its because you were reading off the lens. Were you using a diffuser infront of the meter? You said you were using an i1 meter, but that is only part of the model. For example i1 display 2 or i1 pro. There is absolutely no way the gamma would look like that even if you had 1000 hours on the bulb so I think you should start again. Also as the screen material introduces its own colour shift, you should always be reading off the screen, and not from the lens.
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post #378 of 447 Old 07-11-2013, 06:00 AM
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+1. Always read off the screen and don't use the diffuser when doing so.

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post #379 of 447 Old 07-11-2013, 10:44 AM
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Kal and Jon,

Thanks for your comments. It is the i1 display 3 pro meter. I had quite a bit of back and forth with Tom over at ChromaPure while I was doing the calibration. I must have done it about 4 or 5 times. Honestly I didn't know what I was doing since it was the first projector I calibrated. At first I calibrated off the screen but Tom suggested that I try with the lens. I think I just did not have the meter close enough to the screen and was not getting enough brightness. After a few tries with the lens I got the results I posted which Tom thought were close to reference. It is possible that the pre calibration shown in my results was not the projector out of the box. As I said I had already done some calibrations. On the other hand I was using the CMS on the Radiance which, I believe, ChromaPure resets at the beginning of each auto calibration. I also played around with the initial picture/color settings in the x-75 trying to avoid undersaturated colors at the start.

In any case, I might have to do the calibration over again because I think I might want to fiddle with contrast and brightness again. Also I'm not sure about e-shift and environmental adjustment in the projector which I had on during the calibration. I think I should shut them off while calibrating. Do you?

BTW the screen is a Stewart Studiotek 130 G3.

Oh and I was using the diffuser over the meter.
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post #380 of 447 Old 07-11-2013, 11:44 AM
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I always calibrate with eshift off. I have a Darbee too and I turn that off while calibrating
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post #381 of 447 Old 07-11-2013, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D View Post

In any case, I might have to do the calibration over again because I think I might want to fiddle with contrast and brightness again. Also I'm not sure about e-shift and environmental adjustment in the projector which I had on during the calibration. I think I should shut them off while calibrating. Do you?
eshift should have no effect on the things we calibrate: greyscale, gamma, colour gamut. It does not effect these things. It affects sharpness/apparent resolution. So it shouldn't matter. I've been calibrating with it on since that's how I use my RS56.

The "environmental settings" supposedly try to somehow change the settngs based on your screen size, wall colours, etc. Probably something that messes with gamma or similar based on how much light bounce the projector thinks comes back on to the screen. I leave all that stuff off.

There are other settings that let you choose your screen so that you can supposedly get closer to perfect out of the box (without calibrating). I also don't use any of those settings. They're pointless if you're just going to calibrate anyway. (The projector will add some internal offsets which you may then just undo).

I prefer to use the 'clean slate' approach and disable anything that's going to affect calibration - especially things like the two I mentioned above where you really have no idea how the JVC is changing the picture internally. (the manual is extremely vague about it)

Good luck!

Kal
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post #382 of 447 Old 07-12-2013, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by kal View Post

eshift should have no effect on the things we calibrate: greyscale, gamma, colour gamut. It does not effect these things. It affects sharpness/apparent resolution. So it shouldn't matter. I've been calibrating with it on since that's how I use my RS56.

The "environmental settings" supposedly try to somehow change the settngs based on your screen size, wall colours, etc. Probably something that messes with gamma or similar based on how much light bounce the projector thinks comes back on to the screen. I leave all that stuff off.

There are other settings that let you choose your screen so that you can supposedly get closer to perfect out of the box (without calibrating). I also don't use any of those settings. They're pointless if you're just going to calibrate anyway. (The projector will add some internal offsets which you may then just undo).

I prefer to use the 'clean slate' approach and disable anything that's going to affect calibration - especially things like the two I mentioned above where you really have no idea how the JVC is changing the picture internally. (the manual is extremely vague about it)

Good luck!

Kal

Agree there is no issue at all with calibrating with e-shift on. The screen presets do have a use. If you ever want to play with the built-in presets of the JVC, particularly such as the higher end units with the Xenon bulb simulation, then using the screen preset at least gets you a bit closer to "correct". It does no harm to use the screen preset first then calibrate.
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post #383 of 447 Old 07-12-2013, 05:21 AM
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Thanks for the comments. Yes I agree that the manual is pretty sketchy on what all these fancy features do and how to use them. With my plasmas all I wanted to do was turn off as much processing as possible and let the Radiance do all the heavy lifting. I'm not sure if the same approach is warranted in the case of projectors but I don't see why not. Honestly I don't see much effect from eshift in the time I've played around with it (not much so far). I sit between one and two screen widths from the screen. I do think the Darblet processing makes a difference. On the screen size setting, I'm not sitting in front of the projector now but I thought that is only available if the environmental setting is on. So I guess if I turn off environmental there is no other image enhancement processing going on other than eshift. Do you agree?

Another thing that I would like to sort out before doing another calibration is the issue with setting the iris opening. Again, this is new to me given this is my first projector. I didn't even know it was something that one might fiddle with. How do I go about getting that set properly? I guess it will affect contrast and brightness so I should fiddle with the iris first and then do the usual contrast and brightness adjustments with a pluge pattern? Grateful for any step by step suggestions you might offer.
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post #384 of 447 Old 07-12-2013, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D View Post

Thanks for the comments. Yes I agree that the manual is pretty sketchy on what all these fancy features do and how to use them. With my plasmas all I wanted to do was turn off as much processing as possible and let the Radiance do all the heavy lifting. I'm not sure if the same approach is warranted in the case of projectors but I don't see why not. Honestly I don't see much effect from eshift in the time I've played around with it (not much so far). I sit between one and two screen widths from the screen. I do think the Darblet processing makes a difference. On the screen size setting, I'm not sitting in front of the projector now but I thought that is only available if the environmental setting is on. So I guess if I turn off environmental there is no other image enhancement processing going on other than eshift. Do you agree?

Another thing that I would like to sort out before doing another calibration is the issue with setting the iris opening. Again, this is new to me given this is my first projector. I didn't even know it was something that one might fiddle with. How do I go about getting that set properly? I guess it will affect contrast and brightness so I should fiddle with the iris first and then do the usual contrast and brightness adjustments with a pluge pattern? Grateful for any step by step suggestions you might offer.

Unless you are using HDMI enhanced outputs from devices, then brightness and contrast should be left at zero. I have never had to change them on any of my 5 JVC projectors!

To set the aperture, close the aperture fully (-15) and display movie content with a "typical" scene (not an overly bright or overly dim one). Then open the aperture click by click until the image is bright enough for you. That is the best point of on/off contrast optimization. Some might use a light meter to set peak white between 12-14ftL, but in the absence of this, just go by personal preference on image brightness.
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post #385 of 447 Old 07-12-2013, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Unless you are using HDMI enhanced outputs from devices, then brightness and contrast should be left at zero. I have never had to change them on any of my 5 JVC projectors!

To set the aperture, close the aperture fully (-15) and display movie content with a "typical" scene (not an overly bright or overly dim one). Then open the aperture click by click until the image is bright enough for you. That is the best point of on/off contrast optimization. Some might use a light meter to set peak white between 12-14ftL, but in the absence of this, just go by personal preference on image brightness.


Hmmm. So if I want to use a light meter I put up a 100 percent grayscale test screen and then set the iris so I have about 12-14 ftL? Interesting that you have never needed to adjust brightness and contrast. So you use a pluge pattern and with JVC projectors the proper bars are just visible at 0 setting for contrast and brightness?
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post #386 of 447 Old 07-12-2013, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack D View Post

Hmmm. So if I want to use a light meter I put up a 100 percent grayscale test screen and then set the iris so I have about 12-14 ftL? Interesting that you have never needed to adjust brightness and contrast. So you use a pluge pattern and with JVC projectors the proper bars are just visible at 0 setting for contrast and brightness?

Well 12-14ftL is the "general' recommendation, but some are finding with a fully light controlled room, that as low as 9 is acceptable or preferable. But this gives you a rough starting indication.

As for the proper bars, JVCs often have a difficulty with the bottom shade of black (e.g the 17 bar). You do not want to raise the black floor just to see that bar. Fundamentally the way to set brightness is to find the point at which black is the lowest possible light reading. I find even if I do brightness+1 on any of the JVC projectors, that this lifts the black floor. For contrast, some have found -1, 0 or +1. But we are talking tiny differences, and zero has been fine on my units.
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post #387 of 447 Old 07-12-2013, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Well 12-14ftL is the "general' recommendation, but some are finding with a fully light controlled room, that as low as 9 is acceptable or preferable. But this gives you a rough starting indication.

As for the proper bars, JVCs often have a difficulty with the bottom shade of black (e.g the 17 bar). You do not want to raise the black floor just to see that bar. Fundamentally the way to set brightness is to find the point at which black is the lowest possible light reading. I find even if I do brightness+1 on any of the JVC projectors, that this lifts the black floor. For contrast, some have found -1, 0 or +1. But we are talking tiny differences, and zero has been fine on my units.

Ok. Will play around with this a bit later today when I escape from the office.

The next topic is what to do about 3D calibrations??? I've heard it is a bit-ch.
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post #388 of 447 Old 07-12-2013, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Well 12-14ftL is the "general' recommendation, but some are finding with a fully light controlled room, that as low as 9 is acceptable or preferable. But this gives you a rough starting indication.
+1. I'm not at 12-14 ftL (closer to 9-10) and I still have some work to do around to screen with reflections which will only help more. It's (IMHO) very acceptable/bright.
Quote:
As for the proper bars, JVCs often have a difficulty with the bottom shade of black (e.g the 17 bar). You do not want to raise the black floor just to see that bar. Fundamentally the way to set brightness is to find the point at which black is the lowest possible light reading. I find even if I do brightness+1 on any of the JVC projectors, that this lifts the black floor. For contrast, some have found -1, 0 or +1. But we are talking tiny differences, and zero has been fine on my units.
Look using the "Dark Level" adjustment too. It's under "Picture Adjust -> Dark/Bright Level". My dark level's up a notch or two and it helped a lot with gamma just above black.

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post #389 of 447 Old 07-12-2013, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post


As for the proper bars, JVCs often have a difficulty with the bottom shade of black (e.g the 17 bar). You do not want to raise the black floor just to see that bar. Fundamentally the way to set brightness is to find the point at which black is the lowest possible light reading. I find even if I do brightness+1 on any of the JVC projectors, that this lifts the black floor. For contrast, some have found -1, 0 or +1. But we are talking tiny differences, and zero has been fine on my units.
I'll add my $.02 and reinforce what Jonathan said.....raising brightness above 0 raises the black floor. All that money spent for extra on/off CR is thrown out because raising brightness above 0 lowers on/off CR. Many of us would rather not see level 17 if the tradeoff is raising brightness and lowering on/off. To get level 17 more observable though it's best to tinker with gamma. You can do this manually (using a meter of course) or you can use the Dark Level control Kal refer to in his post.

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post #390 of 447 Old 07-12-2013, 08:14 AM
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Thanks for the tips guys!
Jack D is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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Epson Powerlite Home Cinema 8500 Ub Lcd Projector V11h337020
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