4K projectors...no material - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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It's great manufacturers (e.g. JVC, Sony....etc.) are putting out 4k 3D projectors but there's no 4k movies out yet. So at the moment...what's the point? Just to watch upconverted Blurays? smile.gif

Are they working on a new Bluray format offering 4k res?
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post #2 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 02:37 PM
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JVC doesn't have a consumer grade 4K projector out at the moment. Only Sony does.

As for content there a few threads on this already. They are working on finalizing the specifications for the format. You can expect the earliest studio 4K material to be out in 2014.

I think Red and Mitsubishi have announced they are going to be releasing native 4K projectors this year. Red has been known to take a while to release their products so don't hold your breath too long on that one and the Mitsubishi is using the same 4K panels that are being used in the Sony 4K machine that is already out.

Hopefully JVC is working on something. What you've see from them is called e-shift which is still 1080p. Essentially the eshift is optically upconverting to a pseudo 4k but its nothing native.
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post #3 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 03:22 PM
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AFAIK, they are planning to release 4K material in 2013, not 2014.

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post #4 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gradius2 View Post

AFAIK, they are planning to release 4K material in 2013, not 2014.

I could be wrong, but I would not hold my breath for 2013.

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post #5 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 03:45 PM
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Its very important to people to have native 4k. The JVC eshift that upconverts to 4k bothers a lot of people. I thought it was good, it does the job
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post #6 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 04:01 PM
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they might not have liked JVC calling it 4K, but tech jargon aside, I think this technology is great and makes a noticeable difference on my 142" at close seating distance.

We'll likely see the same posts in 1 year from now.. where is the consumer 4K material. it's not going to happen for a while (if it does at all).
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post #7 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 04:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BDD888 View Post

It's great manufacturers (e.g. JVC, Sony....etc.) are putting out 4k 3D projectors but there's no 4k movies out yet. So at the moment...what's the point? Just to watch upconverted Blurays? smile.gif
Are they working on a new Bluray format offering 4k res?


Everything I watch on the Sony VPL-vw1000ES is upscaled from either 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. The result is a PQ unequaled to any other consumer grade machine I have seen or had in my HT. It could be a question of just the better lens etc that is included in the beast. But the machine raises the bar in making video look realistic. I am fooled when watching live video into thinking I am there and that never happened with any 1080p (2K) projector I have seen.

So I disagree with the premise of needing 4K source material to justify a 4K machine though I concede that the PQ would be even better if native 4HD or native 4K.
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post #8 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 04:25 PM
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everything looks hires on that tiny little screen you have....

just kidding!!! biggrin.gif

make sure i'm first in line for the RS55 replacement.. cool.gif
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post #9 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

everything looks hires on that tiny little screen you have....
just kidding!!! biggrin.gif
make sure i'm first in line for the RS55 replacement.. cool.gif

Too late. My first preorder is dated 8/23/12. smile.gif

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post #10 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 08:08 PM
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HVEC(H265) will be coming out next year. It half's the bit-rate keeping the same quality. This should allow 4k on a Blu-ray disc. Also if they Adopt BDXL then you have a 100 gig disc.

Still need new hardware.

Here is the press release on HVEC

http://www.mpegla.com/main/pages/media.aspx (first press release on right now)
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post #11 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

HVEC(H265) will be coming out next year. It half's the bit-rate keeping the same quality. This should allow 4k on a Blu-ray disc. Also if they Adopt BDXL then you have a 100 gig disc.
Still need new hardware.
Here is the press release on HVEC
http://www.mpegla.com/main/pages/media.aspx (first press release on right now)

HEVC (also known as H.265 and MPEG-H Part 2) is intended to improve video coding efficiency for the benefit of mobile service providers and consumers

Don't know if HEVC will improve the image quality or compression rate or not.

Actually, wit AVC (H.264), a movie needs around 150GB space, which can be handled by TDK's new 6-layer Bluray Disk. I believe in short term future, when this kind of 200GB 6-layer BD go to mass production, we will have a lot of 4K blu-ray content to choose.
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post #12 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 09:13 PM
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HEVC is for better compression than h.264.

They managed almost half possible with h.264. So a 50GB movie with h.264 could be around 25GB with h.265 with no perceptible quality difference:

As with 3D, the best 4K delivery solution for the home is likely to be Blu-ray Disc. “The physical format can do it,” declares Don Eklund, executive VP of technologies at Sony Pictures Technologies, thanks to new compression algorithms. Most notable is HEVC, or High Efficiency Video Codec, which is now in advanced development. It’s considerably more efficient than the AVC codec now commonly used on Blu-rays while remaining similarly free of artifacts, and it will allow a 4K film to fit on a mass-replicated 50-gigabyte, two-layer Blu-ray Disc. “I’ve seen samples of what that codec can do with 4K at a 30-megabit-per-second bitrate compared to what AVC can do at 50 Mb per second, and it actually looks a little bit better at 30 than AVC looks at 50,” Eklund says.

Source:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/4k-revolution-page-2

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post #13 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 09:53 PM
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Maybe a stupid question but with the higher resolution of a 4k projector can you use it to replace a quality 1080p with an anamorphic lens ?
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post #14 of 31 Old 08-30-2012, 10:46 PM
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Maybe a stupid question but with the higher resolution of a 4k projector can you use it to replace a quality 1080p with an anamorphic lens ?

With 1080p blu ray disc or movies it should. You lose pixels with 1080p movies with the bars, it goes from 1920X820 without a lens to 1920X1080 with a lens. You basically get full 1080p with a lens. With 4K, you add pixels with higher resolution from up converting 2K to 4K. Even with JVC eshift, it up converts 2K to 4K, so the same can be said with any projector that upcoverts to 4K. With 4K disc, it should be different story. My theory is up converting to 2K to 4K with lens memory makes it so an A-Lens will not be needed. You will have to buy a very expensive A-Lens to keep the sharpness and get full 1080p. However, they can not give you the extra pixels.
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post #15 of 31 Old 08-31-2012, 12:25 AM
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http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/43813/4k2k-ultra-definition-blu-ray-2013

Given this announcement, 1080p projectors, eg JVC, are no longer of interest to me, which is a wrench as I've been JVC for some time now.

Time for RED to deliver their 4K laser so we can see what it offers, otherwise it looks like Sony may well get my money next year...

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post #16 of 31 Old 08-31-2012, 01:39 AM
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I think this is more of a psychological barrier than anything else, displaying a 4k frame with two flashes, could yeild true 4k at a much lower cost, give or take a few pixels.

E-Shift with a 4K input will be similar to an interlaced frame of yesteryear, done well I'm betting it will be near impossible to tell the difference with a true 4K machine, no need for expensive 4K optics, or a true 4K chip/s....it's the image data projected that matters.

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post #17 of 31 Old 08-31-2012, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

I think this is more of a psychological barrier than anything else, displaying a 4k frame with two flashes, could yeild true 4k at a much lower cost, give or take a few pixels.
E-Shift with a 4K input will be similar to an interlaced frame of yesteryear, done well I'm betting it will be near impossible to tell the difference with a true 4K machine, no need for expensive 4K optics, or a true 4K chip/s....it's the image data projected that matters.

This is the same (flawed) argument we heard re: DVD vs Blu-Ray. There is no substitute for native data at native resolution... At least until our visual acuity fails us...

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post #18 of 31 Old 08-31-2012, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

This is the same (flawed) argument we heard re: DVD vs Blu-Ray. There is no substitute for native data at native resolution... At least until our visual acuity fails us...

I'm not talking about a 1080p input scaled to 4k, but a true 4k input desected into 2 fields and flashed in two steps to create the full 4k frame.

NHK/JVC Super HI vision uses a 3840 x 2160 chip with E-Shift to create the 7680 x4320 image, it's a very intelligent way of achieving the end result, without the bandwith or the super optics required....it's the end result that matters.

See here:http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=nhk%20e-shift&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhk.or.jp%2Fdigital%2Fen%2Fpressrelease%2F110113%2F110113.pdf&ei=joRAUK_yLu2QiQeoiYCACg&usg=AFQjCNGkRsUr3mLnEqa5UHlP8nLC5rIvIw

This is the same beast as above, the capture process is the same as the display process, the capture is done in two passes as well:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19370582

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post #19 of 31 Old 08-31-2012, 02:40 AM
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Thanks. I misread your intent smile.gif

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post #20 of 31 Old 08-31-2012, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

Maybe a stupid question but with the higher resolution of a 4k projector can you use it to replace a quality 1080p with an anamorphic lens ?

It really makes no difference. Here's a short breakdown:

1080p with lens memory: No scaling, 25-30% less brightness than 16:9, light spill at top/bottom
1080p with anamorphic lens: Scaling, full brightness, no light spill
4K with lens memory: scaling, 25-30% less brightness, light spill
4K with lens: scaling, full brightness, no light spill

So if you're using a lens, 4K might offer some better scaling provided that you have a scaler that is better than the 1080p one (with 1080p you could use a Lumagen or something else, with 4K that's not an option), but the only native resolution version is to use the 1080p with lens memory or manual zoom. There are native 2.35:1 projectors now, but those use a masked 2560x1600 chip, so it's a 2560x1080 area and still requires scaling. The chip is slightly larger, so it can be about as bright as a 16:9 projector with a lens, but then you're losing light on 16:9 material and getting light spill on the sides.

A lens still offers the best performance with the fewest side effects of most of these (provided the scaling doesn't bother you), but none of them are perfect and perfect just doesn't exist at this point. Moving to 4K doesn't change anything, other than the fact that it has to be scaled with or without a lens.

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post #21 of 31 Old 08-31-2012, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

This is the same beast as above, the capture process is the same as the display process, the capture is done in two passes as well:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19370582
Don't know what you mean about that?

The NHK 8K broadcast cameras (made by Hitachi) have a 33megapixel CMOS sensor.
The reason the JVC 8K projector uses 4K chips and e-Shift is because projectors with full 8K Lcos chips are too expensive to manufacture in quantity yet. The e-Shift was originally developed for the 8K projector but was used on the 4K projector to lower prices.
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post #22 of 31 Old 08-31-2012, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post

Time for RED to deliver their 4K laser so we can see what it offers, otherwise it looks like Sony may well get my money next year...

The RED 4K laser 3D projector (full 4K for each eye in 3D) will start to ship to selected beta testers and for FCC approval around Christmas, and to regular customers in the first months of next year.
The Asic for Redray has just come out of the oven( they have used a FPGA based chip until now).

The 20min. 4K 3D short film by Luke Scott (son of Ridley Scott) that was produced to show off the Redray Laser projector at NAB in April is now online in 720P 2D.
It will be released in 4K with the standalone Redray player before Christmas and with the projector when that is released.
DoP is Dariusz Wolski.

Can be downloaded from here; http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?84739-LOOM-ONLINE
.
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post #23 of 31 Old 08-31-2012, 04:12 PM
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Don't know what you mean about that?
My link error, that is a 33k sensor camera, however I do recall seeing an NHK clip when they were doing trials in the UK for the olympics shoot, where a camera was used capturing 8k with 4k chips, possibly multiples or E-shift.

Must have been thinking of this: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=nhk%208k%20cameras&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhk.or.jp%2Fdigital%2Fen%2Ftechnical%2Fpdf%2F02_3.PDF&ei=AUdBUPT_A46XiQfN7YDYDQ&usg=AFQjCNHxxFHmTKKesqx7KiqXju9kvPCKyw

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post #24 of 31 Old 09-01-2012, 04:06 AM
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Upconversion these days can end up looking better than the source material displayed at 1:1. You have the option of using Nearest Neighbour resampling to exactly recreate the original 1080p image, or to use other upsampling algorithms to create a smoother, less aliased image.

If nothing else, displaying lower resolution content on a 4K projector significantly reduces screendoor, and allows for digital convergence correction on three chip machines without losing high frequency detail.

And high-end PCs can render games at 4K today.
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post #25 of 31 Old 09-01-2012, 08:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

everything looks hires on that tiny little screen you have....
just kidding!!! biggrin.gif
make sure i'm first in line for the RS55 replacement.. cool.gif


I will put you in for a preorder and you will be high enough to make the first batch. Give me a call Thursday night late and I will tell you all about it.
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post #26 of 31 Old 09-01-2012, 06:54 PM
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I was at Abt Electronics in Glenview (a Chicago suburb) today to purchase some mundane appliances. But I went over to check out their Home Theater area. In the open area there were three projectors running on side by side fixed screens - Epson ?, Sony HW30, and ??. There was JVC set up for a retractable screen but not in operation.

In the "real" theater room there was (I believe) a Sony VW1000 with Panamorph (not in place) projecting on a curved Stewart screen. A couple of pre-teens were watching some recent movie. I could not determine what the source was. I did not see any signs listing system components, and I didn't bother to find a salesman to check.

But, I was not impressed. In my view, the source material is far more important than the projector. Now maybe on really good material the VW1000's superior image quality would be apparent. Unfortunately I'm not likely to be able to see that demonstrated. So I'll be happy to say I've seen a $25,000 4K projector and that I've not yet seen a reason to upgrade.
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post #27 of 31 Old 09-01-2012, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post

I was at Abt Electronics in Glenview (a Chicago suburb) today to purchase some mundane appliances. But I went over to check out their Home Theater area. In the open area there were three projectors running on side by side fixed screens - Epson ?, Sony HW30, and ??. There was JVC set up for a retractable screen but not in operation.
In the "real" theater room there was (I believe) a Sony VW1000 with Panamorph (not in place) projecting on a curved Stewart screen. A couple of pre-teens were watching some recent movie. I could not determine what the source was. I did not see any signs listing system components, and I didn't bother to find a salesman to check.
But, I was not impressed. In my view, the source material is far more important than the projector. Now maybe on really good material the VW1000's superior image quality would be apparent. Unfortunately I'm not likely to be able to see that demonstrated. So I'll be happy to say I've seen a $25,000 4K projector and that I've not yet seen a reason to upgrade.

If you are really interested in seeing one in the right environment. Joerod, an AVS member and reviewer has one. He lives in Valparaiso, IN, which is less than an hour away from Chicago.
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post #28 of 31 Old 09-01-2012, 08:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post

I was at Abt Electronics in Glenview (a Chicago suburb) today to purchase some mundane appliances. But I went over to check out their Home Theater area. In the open area there were three projectors running on side by side fixed screens - Epson ?, Sony HW30, and ??. There was JVC set up for a retractable screen but not in operation.
In the "real" theater room there was (I believe) a Sony VW1000 with Panamorph (not in place) projecting on a curved Stewart screen. A couple of pre-teens were watching some recent movie. I could not determine what the source was. I did not see any signs listing system components, and I didn't bother to find a salesman to check.
But, I was not impressed. In my view, the source material is far more important than the projector. Now maybe on really good material the VW1000's superior image quality would be apparent. Unfortunately I'm not likely to be able to see that demonstrated. So I'll be happy to say I've seen a $25,000 4K projector and that I've not yet seen a reason to upgrade.

You should see it in my HT .In you area, Joerod has one in his Ht and I am sure he would be happy to demo it for you. Whoops I see I just repeated the info in the above post. But give Joerod a call after Cedia which ends next Saturday.
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post #29 of 31 Old 09-01-2012, 08:37 PM
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Thanks for the suggestions! I'm not actively in the market for a new projector, let alone in this price category.

I'm rather sure that the VW1000 at Abt Electronics would look great with really good material. I would presume that the film playing was from Blu-ray, but as I said, I could not determine the source.

I watch a variety of source material -- mostly movies on Blu-ray (and still some on DVD) and OTA HDTV. Really good HDTV can look terrific on my quite modest equipment (five year old 720p DLP). But my observation today was that even the superb VW1000 did not make more ordinary film material look significantly better than I'm used to seeing. (A direct A-B comparison might very well have different results.)

Without access to a good deal of great source material, a 4K projector, especially at the price level of the VW1000, is a long way out on the "diminishing returns" curve in my opinion.
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post #30 of 31 Old 09-01-2012, 10:47 PM
 
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I watch mainly 720p and 1080i live sports and over the cable movies and of course 1080p 24 an 60 Bluray. I have had many many high quality projectors in my HT. My wife took one look at the picture thrown by the Sony and said buy it. Its a whole level above anything I have had in my HT. A whole other level of realism and of you are there for live video. Really. And that is pretty much the universal opinion of those that have purchased that machine, many after viewing it in my HT including one noted WSR reviewer..
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