Video game lag time and projectors, which is best bet? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a decent budget and a room that is light controlled. I am looking at everything from sony 30 aes and 95 es, ben Q w7000, jvc x70r and x90r, panny ae7000, runco ls-5, or the epsons 5010 and 6010.
Sony is what i have been told has least lag for games. My sons and me play first peron shooters and racing games so any noticlable lag will not work. I will have some light on sometimes when video games or sports are on. I am also looking at getting 2 projectors one for games and the other for movies but would prefer just one.
Any opinion or knowledge would be greatly appreciated!
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post #2 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 11:59 AM
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Click on the link in my signature, I tested the W7000, RS45/55, Epson 5010 and Sony HW30. The HW30 had the lowest lag time with it's 'gaming mode'.

There's a number of new models coming out soon, so it might be worth waiting to see if any of the companies improve in this area.
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post #3 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 12:12 PM
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From the minimal research I had done, the AE7000 had the lowest input lag. I could be wrong though but that is what I thought I remember reading.

I too am extremely sensitive to lag as I play fighting games, and I'd like to be able to play them on the projector that I do end up getting.

Do things like running the console through the AVR to the projector cause any additional lag, or should I not be concerned about any of that?
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post #4 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 12:53 PM
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Here is a spreadsheet of a few projectors with some lag times as reported by avs forum members.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As2Nwz3oTRW1dElsRlMtbUZXVUFYbVhOS0stUVBUeHc#gid=0
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post #5 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 12:56 PM
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The AVR can add some lag if it is doing additional processing on video. If you turn off the video processing, you should be ok. I would also make sure that the lip sync feature is turned off as it may add delay to the video to account for lip synch issues.

I recommend you do some additional research into this because I haven't looked into this in a couple of years.
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post #6 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondaedg View Post

Here is a spreadsheet of a few projectors with some lag times as reported by avs forum members.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As2Nwz3oTRW1dElsRlMtbUZXVUFYbVhOS0stUVBUeHc#gid=0

Hmmm that Espon 8350 input lag looks like the 1 and 8 may have been swapped. I had heard that Epson projectors had some of the worst lag. I definitely could be wrong though.
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post #7 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 02:00 PM
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I read a couple reviews last week that had clocked the w7000 at 35ms average over multiple tests which seems to be one of the better results for 3d projectors.

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post #8 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 02:02 PM
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I can tell you from my personal experience.

Good for gaming-
Epson 8100, 8350
Panasonic 7000

Bad for gaming
Epson 3010, 5010
Ben 7000



I personally would go with the panny 7000. That had the lowest lag.
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post #9 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthejoker20 View Post

I can tell you from my personal experience.
Good for gaming-
Epson 8100, 8350
Panasonic 7000
Bad for gaming
Epson 3010, 5010
Ben 7000
I personally would go with the panny 7000. That had the lowest lag.

What was bad about the BenQ? ~35ms seems good. confused.gif

What is the lag on the Panny? I would think the Epson 8350 is at least as good at only 18ms. Only thing I have read on the Panny about lag was claiming ~30ms, but I dont know how reliable this is.

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post #10 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I read a couple reviews last week that had clocked the w7000 at 35ms average over multiple tests which seems to be one of the better results for 3d projectors.

I measured ~50 MS on the W7000, but haven't checked it since I had the latest firmware. I'll check it again soon. It's funny to see some of the reviews using an LCD instead of a CRT and expecting accurate results.

I can't see picking up a Panasonic 7000 now with the 8000 due out any day unless it was a major discount. It's likely going to fix a number of the outstanding issues as discussed in the recent Cine4home preview.
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post #11 of 26 Old 09-04-2012, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I measured ~50 MS on the W7000, but haven't checked it since I had the latest firmware. I'll check it again soon. It's funny to see some of the reviews using an LCD instead of a CRT and expecting accurate results.
I can't see picking up a Panasonic 7000 now with the 8000 due out any day unless it was a major discount. It's likely going to fix a number of the outstanding issues as discussed in the recent Cine4home preview.

Thanks Jason. The lag report claiming 35ms I was referring to is here........

http://www.projectorreviews.com/game-projector-blog/review-benq-w7000-projector.html



Not sure why he is getting 35 and you are getting 50. confused.gif He does mention that he did multiple tests that landed anywhere from 20-50 with most in the 30-40 range so he averaged it out to 35.

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post #12 of 26 Old 09-05-2012, 01:22 AM
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So going off the new 8000 review from PC, the Panny 7000 has 41ms delay, the 8000 34ms delay which still puts the 8350 at 18ms as the quickest of these 3. This would also mean (if we go off the 35ms average of the above linked 7000 Benq review) that the 7000, 8000 and BenQ 7000 are the same for all practical purposes as far as lag goes.

Still curious why Zombie got 50ms and the other test got 35 on the Benq 7000? Did you run a bunch of tests and then pull an average like they did in the above linked review Jason?

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post #13 of 26 Old 09-05-2012, 04:59 PM
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I have the Panny AE7000. Zero problems with PS3, 360 and computer.

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post #14 of 26 Old 09-05-2012, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

So going off the new 8000 review from PC, the Panny 7000 has 41ms delay, the 8000 34ms delay which still puts the 8350 at 18ms as the quickest of these 3. This would also mean (if we go off the 35ms average of the above linked 7000 Benq review) that the 7000, 8000 and BenQ 7000 are the same for all practical purposes as far as lag goes.

Still curious why Zombie got 50ms and the other test got 35 on the Benq 7000? Did you run a bunch of tests and then pull an average like they did in the above linked review Jason?

I took a minimum of 10 readings for each projector in the mini-shootout. I used a CRT monitor and Nikon D90 SLR with a remote trigger. I haven't remeasured the W7000 since it has the new firmware.

I'm not sure what equipment the other reviewers are using, I hope they are using a CRT otherwise it won't be accurate.

The last FPS I was into ages ago was Unreal Tournament and Quake 2. My 3DFX Voodoo II card rocked in 1998, it was a big deal back then. Now my 32 GB Shuttle SFF, Core I7 @ 4.0 ghz, GTX 670 rig is old news.. cool.gif
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post #15 of 26 Old 09-06-2012, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I took a minimum of 10 readings for each projector in the mini-shootout. I used a CRT monitor and Nikon D90 SLR with a remote trigger. I haven't remeasured the W7000 since it has the new firmware.
I'm not sure what equipment the other reviewers are using, I hope they are using a CRT otherwise it won't be accurate.
The last FPS I was into ages ago was Unreal Tournament and Quake 2. My 3DFX Voodoo II card rocked in 1998, it was a big deal back then. Now my 32 GB Shuttle SFF, Core I7 @ 4.0 ghz, GTX 670 rig is old news.. cool.gif

Dude, that is funny! That is the last FPS I was into on a CPU as well and I also had a Voodoo II ! tongue.gif Me and and a work buddy (I was in college at the time working at Sears) would play that game. I had horrible lag looking back, but at the time it did not seem bad, lol.

Who knows what the other reviewer was doing. Must be something off with his method if he was getting anywhere from 20-50, or is that not uncommon?
Either way, thanks for the info. 50ms it is, unless the new FW has improved this?

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post #16 of 26 Old 09-06-2012, 04:27 AM
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Does lag matter if you are just casual single player gamer??
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post #17 of 26 Old 09-07-2012, 07:33 PM
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Not nearly as much no. I'd stay under 80ms to be safe. If you get a projector thats one of the few with over 100ms of lag even casual single player gamers will start to notice it.
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post #18 of 26 Old 09-07-2012, 08:44 PM
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Honestly 80ms of game lag is not bad at all. I have a 3010 currently and I still play modern warfare 3 on it and rape everyone just the same as i do when playing on my 5ms led tv. I've noticed no lag when playing the game other than minimal internet lag. Surprisingly the projector works quite well.You will notice more internet lag than anything else, and since the lag through the internet is way worse than 80ms you really have nothing to worry about. I've played alot of fps shooters and never have any problems. It might also be that I've adapted to internet lag, and because of that I'm faster than the average person when it comes to reacting since I pre-react to all situations (kinda hard to explain, but for example if i see someone and I'm going after him I'll shoot before going around corner)
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post #19 of 26 Old 09-07-2012, 11:45 PM
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I have become an SSX junkie the past 6 months. I put ~300 hours into the game on my RS45 which has 80ms of lag, and then started playing on my Panny plasma upstairs when my 45 went down. The Panny has much lower lag (cant remember the exact amount) and it was pretty obvious to me with this game that I was VERY familiar with having put in so many hours on my 45. Not only did the game feel more responsive, but ironically I was setting new personal bests as far as race times and trick scores left and right. Since this experience, I am now firmly in the camp that says 80ms is too much lag for a serious game player. However, casual game players I think will be fine with this amount of lag since it has never bothered me with my RS1, RS40 and RS45 (besides SSX) up until I found a game that I got VERY competitive with. So bottom line from my experience is 80ms is fine for the casual gamer, but a no go for big time players IMO.

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post #20 of 26 Old 09-08-2012, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I have become an SSX junkie the past 6 months. I put ~300 hours into the game on my RS45 which has 80ms of lag, and then started playing on my Panny plasma upstairs when my 45 went down. The Panny has much lower lag (cant remember the exact amount) and it was pretty obvious to me with this game that I was VERY familiar with having put in so many hours on my 45. Not only did the game feel more responsive, but ironically I was setting new personal bests as far as race times and trick scores left and right. Since this experience, I am now firmly in the camp that says 80ms is too much lag for a serious game player. However, casual game players I think will be fine with this amount of lag since it has never bothered me with my RS1, RS40 and RS45 (besides SSX) up until I found a game that I got VERY competitive with. So bottom line from my experience is 80ms is fine for the casual gamer, but a no go for big time players IMO.

You do realize that it all in your head right... Its not even physically possible to react faster than 80ms to see a difference. The average human reaction time is 215ms! Anyone above that will fall in the 140+ ms range and that is still twice as long as your projector. On top of that you wont see or experience any lag when your playing alone. If your playing online, its highly possible and more likely that your internet ping is to high at certain times and it just so happened to have been when you did your testing a few days later. Good players dont complain about lag, because its not problem; Good players adapt and beat the lag. Internet lag will always be worse than your monitor response time lag. If the projector lag was over 120ms then it might be noticable, but anything 80 or less wont be. At those speeds the lag problem is split between your reaction time and your internet ping.
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post #21 of 26 Old 09-08-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mat82284 View Post

You do realize that it all in your head right... Its not even physically possible to react faster than 80ms to see a difference. The average human reaction time is 215ms! Anyone above that will fall in the 140+ ms range and that is still twice as long as your projector. On top of that you wont see or experience any lag when your playing alone. If your playing online, its highly possible and more likely that your internet ping is to high at certain times and it just so happened to have been when you did your testing a few days later. Good players dont complain about lag, because its not problem; Good players adapt and beat the lag. Internet lag will always be worse than your monitor response time lag. If the projector lag was over 120ms then it might be noticable, but anything 80 or less wont be. At those speeds the lag problem is split between your reaction time and your internet ping.

lol, I think you have never play any hardcore game. I mean fighting games and competitive shooting game for instance.

I will destroy any "average human" which have 215ms reaction time in those games.
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post #22 of 26 Old 09-08-2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mat82284 View Post

You do realize that it all in your head right... Its not even physically possible to react faster than 80ms to see a difference. The average human reaction time is 215ms! Anyone above that will fall in the 140+ ms range and that is still twice as long as your projector. On top of that you wont see or experience any lag when your playing alone. If your playing online, its highly possible and more likely that your internet ping is to high at certain times and it just so happened to have been when you did your testing a few days later. Good players dont complain about lag, because its not problem; Good players adapt and beat the lag. Internet lag will always be worse than your monitor response time lag. If the projector lag was over 120ms then it might be noticable, but anything 80 or less wont be. At those speeds the lag problem is split between your reaction time and your internet ping.

Man, I gave the EXACT same argument that you are giving right now less then a year ago, BUT this SSX experience has me convinced otherwise. I just have to laugh though because I was in your shoes no less then a year ago presenting almost the exact same argument. Having said that, I am still open to the possibility that this could all be placebo, but it all seems a bit too ironic to ignore (as far as my experience that I talked about in my previous post). I fully understand your stance though and have not ruled it out. smile.gif I am telling you though, the game flat out feels more responsive on the plasma, and like I mentioned, I was resetting personal best scores and times left and right as soon as I moved the xbox upstairs. Either way, I have definitely moved over to the other side of the lag fence and believe (even if it is in my head tongue.gif) 80ms is too damn much.

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post #23 of 26 Old 09-08-2012, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by berserk_sun View Post

lol, I think you have never play any hardcore game. I mean fighting games and competitive shooting game for instance.
I will destroy any "average human" which have 215ms reaction time in those games.

Thats good, that means that your reaction time is at least 115ms. The fastest person in the world is around 115ms so you must be near that or above it, which is still well above 80ms. The fact that you have a faster reaction time is the reason why your raping people. Good job! in COD MW2 I rape people too with my projector and without. Ive notice no difference at all. My friend didnt notice anything either and he's been playing a long time as well.
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Man, I gave the EXACT same argument that you are giving right now less then a year ago, BUT this SSX experience has me convinced otherwise. I just have to laugh though because I was in your shoes no less then a year ago presenting almost the exact same argument. Having said that, I am still open to the possibility that this could all be placebo, but it all seems a bit too ironic to ignore (as far as my experience that I talked about in my previous post). I fully understand your stance though and have not ruled it out. smile.gif I am telling you though, the game flat out feels more responsive on the plasma, and like I mentioned, I was resetting personal best scores and times left and right as soon as I moved the xbox upstairs. Either way, I have definitely moved over to the other side of the lag fence and believe (even if it is in my head tongue.gif) 80ms is too damn much.

There is the possibility that playing on a smaller screen benefits you more than playing on a large screen. In some games a big screen can be a negative, but in most if can be a positive. With a screen above 100" your reaction time is really dependent on whether or not you see the person coming around the corner. Sometimes with shooter games this is a benefit, but can also be a negative if the screen is to big and your sitting to close and have you scan the screen all day. If you cant see everywhere on the screen at once your now scanning and scanning decreases your reaction time thus, making you slower, and get less kills, or less ranks.

I'm not trying to say that 80ms wont be a problem, it can, but there are two many other factors that are far more important that you have to deal with first. Once you've mastered a 0.125ms reaction time, hold the best internet, and can view the whole screen with scanning then the projector might be holding you back. I owned an 8500ub for 2 years before then i replaced it with the 3010 for 3d. I've never noticed any difference in gaming at all. I'm just trying to say that if your picking a projector dont worry about the lag, its very minimal compared to all the other issues that make the gaming far worse. I play on a 150in screen and sit 16feet back. I can see the whole screen and its huge. That might be a big benefit for my gaming and that might be a good reason why i get those long shots when i normally wouldn't.

Anyways, back to the op. If money is a factor get the 3010, or wait for the 3020. Or get the 5010 or wait for the 5020ub. Either way you'll love your projector!
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post #24 of 26 Old 09-09-2012, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mat82284 View Post

You do realize that it all in your head right... Its not even physically possible to react faster than 80ms to see a difference. The average human reaction time is 215ms! Anyone above that will fall in the 140+ ms range and that is still twice as long as your projector.
This is a completely fallacious argument. If your reaction time is 215ms, and you have a projector adding 120ms delay, you have now increased your reaction time to 335ms—a significant difference. And worse, once you do react, it takes another 120ms to see your actions, so it could be argued that you are increasing your total interaction time to 455ms.
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On top of that you wont see or experience any lag when your playing alone.
This is not true at all.


With high latency, there is a massive disconnect between your actions in the physical world and the game world. The further your level of abstraction is, the more tolerant you may be of it though. If you are using a game controller, where you are manipulating the world with your thumbs at a distance, you can get away with higher latency. With motion control like the Wii, latency starts to become more noticeable as you are more physical with your actions. With a keyboard & mouse sitting up closer to the screen, latency becomes much more noticeable in games.

With a keyboard & mouse on a low-latency setup, it feels like your arm is connected to the game. You aren’t pushing around a camera—it’s connected to your arm.
Touch and head-tracking show similar intolerance for latency.


Microsoft Research have a great video that shows the disconnect between your physical actions and the display with increased latency:

If you’re happy to put up with high latency, so be it, but many of us are not. My current display has about 33ms latency in game mode, and I do notice it. I’ve been considering a projector again recently and would want at most 17ms, preferably lower. There’s really nothing to stop a DLP having less than 1ms of latency if it is well designed—panel response time is much quicker than that.
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post #25 of 26 Old 09-09-2012, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mat82284 View Post

Thats good, that means that your reaction time is at least 115ms. The fastest person in the world is around 115ms so you must be near that or above it, which is still well above 80ms. The fact that you have a faster reaction time is the reason why your raping people. Good job! in COD MW2 I rape people too with my projector and without. Ive notice no difference at all. My friend didnt notice anything either and he's been playing a long time as well.
There is the possibility that playing on a smaller screen benefits you more than playing on a large screen. In some games a big screen can be a negative, but in most if can be a positive. With a screen above 100" your reaction time is really dependent on whether or not you see the person coming around the corner. Sometimes with shooter games this is a benefit, but can also be a negative if the screen is to big and your sitting to close and have you scan the screen all day. If you cant see everywhere on the screen at once your now scanning and scanning decreases your reaction time thus, making you slower, and get less kills, or less ranks.
I'm not trying to say that 80ms wont be a problem, it can, but there are two many other factors that are far more important that you have to deal with first. Once you've mastered a 0.125ms reaction time, hold the best internet, and can view the whole screen with scanning then the projector might be holding you back. I owned an 8500ub for 2 years before then i replaced it with the 3010 for 3d. I've never noticed any difference in gaming at all. I'm just trying to say that if your picking a projector dont worry about the lag, its very minimal compared to all the other issues that make the gaming far worse. I play on a 150in screen and sit 16feet back. I can see the whole screen and its huge. That might be a big benefit for my gaming and that might be a good reason why i get those long shots when i normally wouldn't.
Anyways, back to the op. If money is a factor get the 3010, or wait for the 3020. Or get the 5010 or wait for the 5020ub. Either way you'll love your projector!

be honest, I think you just misunderstand the "reaction" and "game input". I believe the fact about average human response time is 215ms is from "sees" things, then "think“ until "react". But when you play games, there are a lot of cases which you just use "muscle memory" to "react" the situation which you may already predict and practiced about how to react. that's why in a lot of fighting games, the input window is less than 100ms, but there a so many player can master it.
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post #26 of 26 Old 09-09-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

This is a completely fallacious argument. If your reaction time is 215ms, and you have a projector adding 120ms delay, you have now increased your reaction time to 335ms—a significant difference. And worse, once you do react, it takes another 120ms to see your actions, so it could be argued that you are increasing your total interaction time to 455ms.
This is not true at all.
With high latency, there is a massive disconnect between your actions in the physical world and the game world. The further your level of abstraction is, the more tolerant you may be of it though. If you are using a game controller, where you are manipulating the world with your thumbs at a distance, you can get away with higher latency. With motion control like the Wii, latency starts to become more noticeable as you are more physical with your actions. With a keyboard & mouse sitting up closer to the screen, latency becomes much more noticeable in games.
With a keyboard & mouse on a low-latency setup, it feels like your arm is connected to the game. You aren’t pushing around a camera—it’s connected to your arm.
Touch and head-tracking show similar intolerance for latency.


Microsoft Research have a great video that shows the disconnect between your physical actions and the display with increased latency:If you’re happy to put up with high latency, so be it, but many of us are not. My current display has about 33ms latency in game mode, and I do notice it. I’ve been considering a projector again recently and would want at most 17ms, preferably lower. There’s really nothing to stop a DLP having less than 1ms of latency if it is well designed—panel response time is much quicker than that.


That video illustrates visually EXACTLY the difference I am feeling with SSX between my 80ms RS45 and considerably faster plasma! eek.gif The game just feels more responsive on my faster plasma. I am now convinced it is NOT all in my head after seeing that combined with what I have experienced myself. 80ms is WAY to high for gaming. 50 is better, but still a bit higher then I would like.

Thank you for posting that though! smile.gif

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