JVC New Projectors Announced - CEDIA 2012 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 10:47 AM
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How does the JVC eshift look on sports? Any big difference on/off?
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post #92 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I don't understand the complaints. The eshift worked great for me last year and its cheaper this year. There ie nothing I can watch in 4K, plus Sony has one for $25k. I can't afford a $20k projector from JVC or Sony, so I don't see the point. It's not like it was going to be the same price as the eshift models. I guess we hear about 4K projectors being under $10k and expect JVC to be the one to have it first, even though there are only rumors. When there is more than 5 4k movies and one 4k projectors under $10k, then I would understand but not when there is none.

I agree, JVC came out with about what I expected this year. I didn't expect a true 4k projector from them yet and didn't expect a led/laser light source. I love my RS40 but I have wanted to try out eshift so I am going to see if I can sell my RS40 for a fair price and if I can I will get the RS48. If I can't I will hold onto my RS40 and still be happy.

Mike

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post #93 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 11:13 AM
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am not a guy who upgrade every year except when there is a new tech introduced (such as 4K blu), tell that time I'll be keeping my RS40 smile.gif
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post #94 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post

How does the JVC eshift look on sports? Any big difference on/off?

the e-shift improves the PQ on all content I run through my RS55, it all depends on how big your screen is and how close you sit to the screen.

I have FIOS HDTV and Sports events look great on my 142". I sit only 14 feet from the screen and you can turn the e-shift on/off and see the difference.


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post #95 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 11:52 AM
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So does e-shift lower ANSI CR? Is it noticeable? (I know some believe ANSI CR is a worthless spec anyway)
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post #96 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post

How does the JVC eshift look on sports? Any big difference on/off?

the e-shift improves the PQ on all content I run through my RS55, it all depends on how big your screen is and how close you sit to the screen.

I have FIOS HDTV and Sports events look great on my 142". I sit only 14 feet from the screen and you can turn the e-shift on/off and see the difference.

Nice.
I'm about 9.5' away from 106" screen.
About the same as yours given smaller screen and closer viewing area.
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post #97 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

So does e-shift lower ANSI CR? Is it noticeable? (I know some believe ANSI CR is a worthless spec anyway)

yes a lot.
the picture looks very flat compare to the one without.
audio vision the leading test magazine in germany measure only 120:1 with eshift and arround 300:1 without eshift.

at this low number its a big differnce.
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post #98 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

So does e-shift lower ANSI CR? Is it noticeable? (I know some believe ANSI CR is a worthless spec anyway)

+1 would like to know how much over the panel just at 1080P with eShift off. Subjectively at least for the owners this year. I had been under the impression it was pretty unanimous love from owners but now am reading there were issues including this. I wonder how much the new eShift gets back some of the lost ansi. Of course the Darbee is a big win with it also reportedly, so maybe that's giving some of the pop back that was lost. Another knowledgable person, the one (I'm sorry, apologies to him...don't have his name handy) who has "Insider" during the HD DVD vs Bluray battle in his signature.....said yesterday he looked at eShift2 and something to the effect of "saw the same sheen? as on last year's first models. What is that about and is it an issue for anyone else? Does it correlate with MPC setting? Or more like getting up close and looking at a 1080P wobulated rear projection DLP set?


Edit....just saw W. Mayer's post above. Wow...that is a lot. This is making me rethink things and needing to see in person now.
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post #99 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

So does e-shift lower ANSI CR? Is it noticeable? (I know some believe ANSI CR is a worthless spec anyway)

i've seen the discussions on this topic, but don't agree that it translates to something that takes away from the image. I've seen a number of the current under 10k projectors this year including the VW95, the RS55 is my top pick for 2D PQ due to the e-shift.

When it's on, there is a increase in perceived contrast and the image becomes 'solid'. I was skeptical of the technology until I saw it for myself and was able to compare it to some of the other projectors this year.


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post #100 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

yes a lot.
the picture looks very flat compare to the one without.
audio vision the leading test magazine in germany measure only 120:1 with eshift and arround 300:1 without eshift.
at this low number its a big differnce.
It may lower ANSI but it eshift does not make the picture look flat to me at all. I don't think the current crop of RS55 owners in this forum would agree with it looking flat either.
I had the RS50 for a year before getting the RS55 and even though ANSI CR measured higher on the RS50 the RS55 is vastly better IMO.

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post #101 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Or perhaps the lamp issue was so overwhelming that they felt it best to ditch it and move on. I haven't read much lamp chatter lately so I was hoping the flapper fixed the problem. May be just wishful thinking on my part... I would like to know who manufacturers the new lamp. Hopefully it's Phillips.
The new projector sounds like a nice incremental improvement over the current models. I'll be curious to read comparisons between this years eshift and eshift2. That said, I'm quite happy with my RS55 and Darbee combo and with the new Chromapure/Lumagen 125 Point auto cal saturation and luminance tracking issues should be mostly corrected which could further improve my RS55 PQ.

Why use a Darbee with a Radiance? I'll ask about this in the calibration or VP threads, curious.....
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post #102 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by avsform1 View Post

Why use a Darbee with a Radiance? I'll ask about this in the calibration or VP threads, curious.....
They do different things. The Darbee improves perceived contrast and depth by modifying contrast along edges. It has several and options and setting possibilities but in the end it is a [very good] one trick pony.

The Radiance is a full fledged video processor and can do many things, including sharpness( but its sharpness algorithms are nothing like the Darbee). It has full fledged CMS (and it will soon have a 125 point color correcting CMS that can be used to correct non linear saturation and luminance responses). It has superior upscaling compared to my RS50 and RS55 projectors. Visit the Lumagen site to get an idea of what the Radiance line can do since i've just briefly touched on its capabilities. The bottom line for me is the Radiance, RS55, and Darbee are a terrific combo. I'm anxious to try it's new 125 point calibration since JVC's don't have linear saturation and luminance responses (many displays do not but it remains to be seen how this years models perform).

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post #103 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 01:58 PM
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Hey guys,

I was looking for a detailed specifications list of all the 2013 JVC projectors and I couldn't find any. I decided to do one myself. It took me a while, but it looks good! Enjoy. smile.gif

2013JVCProjectorSpecs.docx 160k .docx file
Attached Files
File Type: docx 2013JVCProjectorSpecs.docx (159.8 KB, 114 views)
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So is the ANSI degradation on the JVCs only when e-shift is turned on? As I understand it there is an extra glass element in the optics that causes a slight light diffraction triggered electrically shifting the image. I would suspect that it is this extra element causing the reduction in ANSI but is it due to the element itself (which would mean ANSI is always lowered) or the wobulation process (which means ANSI is lowered only while e-shift is active)?
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post #105 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules View Post

Hey guys,
I was looking for a detailed specifications list of all the 2013 JVC projectors and I couldn't find any. I decided to do one myself. It took me a while, but it looks good! Enjoy. smile.gif
2013JVCProjectorSpecs.docx 160k .docx file

Thanks! It does look good and it helps to have it in an easily readable format that you have created.

Thanks again,
Mike

The Mayans were full of sh*t!!!
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post #106 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 02:23 PM
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+1 would like to know how much over the panel just at 1080P with eShift off. Subjectively at least for the owners this year. I had been under the impression it was pretty unanimous love from owners but now am reading there were issues including this. I wonder how much the new eShift gets back some of the lost ansi. Of course the Darbee is a big win with it also reportedly, so maybe that's giving some of the pop back that was lost. Another knowledgable person, the one (I'm sorry, apologies to him...don't have his name handy) who has "Insider" during the HD DVD vs Bluray battle in his signature.....said yesterday he looked at eShift2 and something to the effect of "saw the same sheen? as on last year's first models. What is that about and is it an issue for anyone else? Does it correlate with MPC setting? Or more like getting up close and looking at a 1080P wobulated rear projection DLP set?
Edit....just saw W. Mayer's post above. Wow...that is a lot. This is making me rethink things and needing to see in person now.

Never read any complaints about eshift before. I'm just now hearing about problems
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post #107 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 02:29 PM
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Well kind of sorry I brought it up as it has been brought to my attention that the very few who do not find it to be to their liking are that....very few.....kind of like darbee......and ansi is extremely difficult to measure and say for certain. So really just kind of disregard my comments as I don't have an eShift unit yet. Today was really in the whole year about the first negatives I recall reading. The huge sample of plus experiences with it speaks well for it.
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post #108 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 02:30 PM
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I can't wait to try out this new super JVC bulb. I'll have a ton of things to watch on it. It can't be worst than 2 years ago
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post #109 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

They do different things. The Darbee improves perceived contrast and depth by modifying contrast along edges. It has several and options and setting possibilities but in the end it is a [very good] one trick pony.
The Radiance is a full fledged video processor and can do many things, including sharpness( but its sharpness algorithms are nothing like the Darbee). It has full fledged CMS (and it will soon have a 125 point color correcting CMS that can be used to correct non linear saturation and luminance responses). It has superior upscaling compared to my RS50 and RS55 projectors. Visit the Lumagen site to get an idea of what the Radiance line can do since i've just briefly touched on its capabilities. The bottom line for me is the Radiance, RS55, and Darbee are a terrific combo. I'm anxious to try it's new 125 point calibration since JVC's don't have linear saturation and luminance responses (many displays do not but it remains to be seen how this years models perform).

I also have a Radiance and absolutely love what it does for the PQ on my display. I spoke with the Radiance reps and CEDIA yesterday and the said that the 5x5x5 could be as early as next week. Concerning the Darbee in your particular set up, I am assuming you calibrated the RS55 with the Darbee 1st and then tweeked it with the Radiance??? I am curious to know.... if you calibrate the RS55 alone and then stick the Darbee in the loop run a pre-calibration on CP/CM what the Grayscale, Gamma and Gamut looks like. I am thinking of getting one soon as I hear the price will jump after 9/16.
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post #110 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

yes a lot.
the picture looks very flat compare to the one without.
audio vision the leading test magazine in germany measure only 120:1 with eshift and arround 300:1 without eshift.
at this low number its a big differnce.

Hmm...

My calibrator measured much higher ANSI on my E-shifted RS55. Closer to that of the RS20's 300 ANSI number.

Further, I would strenuously disagree that an E-shifted JVC looks flatter than one without. Before I got rid of my RS20 (non-Eshift) I did extensive comparisons and the Eshifted
RS55 looked absolutely more dimensional and gave the subjective impression of even HIGHER ANSI/MFT. Especially when the MPC settings are employed - only available when the image
is E-shifted, the RS20 could not competed with the "pop" and depth of the RS55.

I also extensively compared the E-shift on and off and it never looked flatter with E-shift on. In fact, the image tended to look more solid and believable with E-shift on. Use of the MPC controls on the E-shifted image
brought the perception of image clarity and image contrast/depth even higher...very obviously more dimensional looking than the non-Eshifted version, or my old RS20.

So, my experience comparing E-shfted images vs non Eshifted JVC images does not comport with your statement. If there is a single attribute that has kept my jaw on the floor in moving to my RS55 from my RS20 it's the depth of the E-shifted image!

Rich H


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post #111 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by avsform1 View Post

I also have a Radiance and absolutely love what it does for the PQ on my display. I spoke with the Radiance reps and CEDIA yesterday and the said that the 5x5x5 could be as early as next week. Concerning the Darbee in your particular set up, I am assuming you calibrated the RS55 with the Darbee 1st and then tweeked it with the Radiance??? I am curious to know.... if you calibrate the RS55 alone and then stick the Darbee in the loop run a pre-calibration on CP/CM what the Grayscale, Gamma and Gamut looks like. I am thinking of getting one soon as I hear the price will jump after 9/16.

Its really too low at $270, good thing I got one last week
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post #112 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 03:00 PM
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If one is strictly interested in 2D, would the DLA-X70 be sufficient or do the new 75 or 95 improve the 2D picture that much more?
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post #113 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by avsform1 View Post

I also have a Radiance and absolutely love what it does for the PQ on my display. I spoke with the Radiance reps and CEDIA yesterday and the said that the 5x5x5 could be as early as next week. Concerning the Darbee in your particular set up, I am assuming you calibrated the RS55 with the Darbee 1st and then tweeked it with the Radiance??? I am curious to know.... if you calibrate the RS55 alone and then stick the Darbee in the loop run a pre-calibration on CP/CM what the Grayscale, Gamma and Gamut looks like. I am thinking of getting one soon as I hear the price will jump after 9/16.
Numerous reports (including Tom Huffman) state the Darbee does not affect gamut, greyscale or gamma. But to answer your question I have not calibrated with it in the chain. When the Lumagen 5x5x5 is ready I will do my next calibration as soon as possible thereafter. I think it'll make a difference!

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post #114 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 03:06 PM
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Hmm...
My calibrator measured much higher ANSI on my E-shifted RS55. Closer to that of the RS20's 300 ANSI number.
Further, I would strenuously disagree that an E-shifted JVC looks flatter than one without. Before I got rid of my RS20 (non-Eshift) I did extensive comparisons and the Eshifted
RS55 looked absolutely more dimensional and gave the subjective impression of even HIGHER ANSI/MFT. Especially when the MPC settings are employed - only available when the image
is E-shifted, the RS20 could not competed with the "pop" and depth of the RS55.
I also extensively compared the E-shift on and off and it never looked flatter with E-shift on. In fact, the image tended to look more solid and believable with E-shift on. Use of the MPC controls on the E-shifted image
brought the perception of image clarity and image contrast/depth even higher...very obviously more dimensional looking than the non-Eshifted version, or my old RS20.
So, my experience comparing E-shfted images vs non Eshifted JVC images does not comport with your statement. If there is a single attribute that has kept my jaw on the floor in moving to my RS55 from my RS20 it's the depth of the E-shifted image!

I don't see any ANSi differences with or without eshift either (and I got the impression ANSI was better on the RS55 vs the RS50 as well tho I never measured either). I wouldn't rule it but in any event I would not forgo eshift because it adds dimensionality and detail (even more so than the Darbee IMO) but together the combo is amazing.

Geof
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post #115 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 03:32 PM
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I can't wait to try out this new super JVC bulb. I'll have a ton of things to watch on it. It can't be worst than 2 years ago


This is about all I could find yesterday with searches on the technology, and it reads as though manufactured overseas....hint hint. Doesn't sound like new tech. Why not used before? What does anyone know about it? Was photographed in the copy above one of the new lineup of JVC at the AVAD booth. "NSH"


"Lamps for Data Projectors (NSH Lamps)

Created based on the super high-pressure UV lamps, NSH lamps realize compact design, high luminosity, non-flick lighting and high reliability. The lamps support high-performance projectors in a variety use situations, including business, education and the home theatermarket."
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post #116 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 06:29 PM
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the splitter I made for the original JVC emitter / Monster RF emitter should work no problem with the new RF transmitter. The link is in my signature for parts & instructions.

Exactly what I'd need to do...

Thanks a bunch! biggrin.gif
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post #117 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 06:37 PM
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I don't understand the complaints. The eshift worked great for me last year and its cheaper this year. There ie nothing I can watch in 4K, plus Sony has one for $25k. I can't afford a $20k projector from JVC or Sony, so I don't see the point. It's not like it was going to be the same price as the eshift models. I guess we hear about 4K projectors being under $10k and expect JVC to be the one to have it first, even though there are only rumors. When there is more than 5 4k movies and one 4k projectors under $10k, then I would understand but not when there is none.
I'm not complaining about JVC offering eshift. I think it's an interesting solution. I'm complaining that they didn't go the full mile. HDMI chips supporting full native 4K input aren't that much more expensive than slower HDMI chips. So JVC not offering native 4K input is a lost opportunity. They could have made their eshift projectors quite a bit more attractive with just a couple dollars more expensive hardware. If you look at the lower end two models, the price difference is very big. I don't think they lose money on the lowest end model. So why is the next step up model so much more expensive? There's a 2k price difference. Those 2k should have been enough to warrant a few dollars extra for faster HDMI chips, don't you think?
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I am not convinced that eshift is really compatible with 4K sources. Eshifted pixels are shifted 1/2 pixel and overlap four of its neighboring pixels by some amount (less than 25%). A true 4K image does not have half it's pixels overlapping its nearest 4 neighbors. So in the end it's still pseudo 4K but with a lot more cost because it now has to have increased bandwidth to process true 4K inputs.
From all the information about eshift I've seen, in the first step JVC upscales the 2K input to 4K. Only afterwards the data is processed/converted for eshift. So they could simply skip the 2K->4K upconversion step and instead support native 4K input. Doesn't sound very difficult to me. It would actually cost less processing power than what they're doing now.

Basically what I'm trying to say is this: Imagine 4K Blu-Ray comes out sooner or later. At the day it comes out, all projectors which don't do 4K will become kinda outdated and thus lose (resale) value. So if you buy an eshift model today, it will be just as outdated as any 2K projector will be, once 4K Blu-Ray hits the market. If, however, JVC had added native 4K input support, those eshift machines would have been much more future proof. Ok, eshift is not true 4K, but it should quite a bit better than 2K, in terms of resolution. So the eshift machines could have been seen as 4K Blu-Ray capable machines. Which now they most definitely are not.
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post #118 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 06:53 PM
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I'm not complaining about JVC offering eshift. I think it's an interesting solution. I'm complaining that they didn't go the full mile. HDMI chips supporting full native 4K input aren't that much more expensive than slower HDMI chips. So JVC not offering native 4K input is a lost opportunity. They could have made their eshift projectors quite a bit more attractive with just a couple dollars more expensive hardware. If you look at the lower end two models, the price difference is very big. I don't think they lose money on the lowest end model. So why is the next step up model so much more expensive? There's a 2k price difference. Those 2k should have been enough to warrant a few dollars extra for faster HDMI chips, don't you think?
From all the information about eshift I've seen, in the first step JVC upscales the 2K input to 4K. Only afterwards the data is processed/converted for eshift. So they could simply skip the 2K->4K upconversion step and instead support native 4K input. Doesn't sound very difficult to me. It would actually cost less processing power than what they're doing now.
Basically what I'm trying to say is this: Imagine 4K Blu-Ray comes out sooner or later. At the day it comes out, all projectors which don't do 4K will become kinda outdated and thus lose (resale) value. So if you buy an eshift model today, it will be just as outdated as any 2K projector will be, once 4K Blu-Ray hits the market. If, however, JVC had added native 4K input support, those eshift machines would have been much more future proof. Ok, eshift is not true 4K, but it should quite a bit better than 2K, in terms of resolution. So the eshift machines could have been seen as 4K Blu-Ray capable machines. Which now they most definitely are not.
I agree that 2K eshift is better than non-eshift 2K. Not sure how much different or better that could be with "real" 4K as a source. I'd have to see it because I cannot imagine it. But I don't think the process is as trivial as you suggest by just changing to faster HDMI chips. In the end though faux 4K is faux 4K. I don't see one being more future proof than the other.

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post #119 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I agree that 2K eshift is better than non-eshift 2K. Not sure how much different or better that could be with "real" 4K as a source. I'd have to see it because I cannot imagine it. But I don't think the process is as trivial as you suggest by just changing to faster HDMI chips. In the end though faux 4K is faux 4K. I don't see one being more future proof than the other.

One could look at e-shift being not too dissimilar than an interlaced 1080 signal being displayed in two passes to create the end result. With a true 4k input and source the result with e-shift is similar.

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post #120 of 1073 Old 09-07-2012, 10:24 PM
 
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I have lot's of comments guys based on my show observations. But it late tonight and I would like to use a kep pad instead on my iPad touch screen.

I do not read Mayer's comment the way you guys are reading it. I think he is saying it looks flat with the eshift off.

The new Jvcs have much higher ANSI contrast this year due to even better wire grid polarizers and the eshift2 uses much much better lags to generate the two HD frames frames extracted and flashed sequential from the scaled 4 HD frame. Last year's lags processed mainly high frequency to generate the two frames and this year much higher bandwidth is used and processed. It makes what you will now see a much better approximation of the scaled 4HD frame projected through a 4 HD panel.
Wanna bet wether the sophisticated consumer reviewers here will reach the same conclusion when they get a new eshift 2 machine in their hands a few months from now. The new machines are a significant improvement in 2D performance from JVC this year.
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